126 [Healing Series] Surviving the Holidays
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Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/126
Haley Radke: This show is listener supported. You can join us and help our show grow to support more adoptees by going to adopteeson.com/partner.
You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. I'm your host, Haley Radke, and this is a special episode in our healing series, where I interview therapists who are also adoptees themselves so they know from personal experience what it feels like to be an adoptee.
Today, we are taking your questions about surviving the holidays. Let's listen in.
I'm so pleased to welcome back to Adoptees On, Lesli Johnson. Hi, Lesli.
Lesli A. Johnson: Hi, Haley. Glad to be here, as always.
Haley Radke: Oh my gosh, so good. I love talking with you. You're so wise, and give us such good advice. So excited. I realized that our last “Surviving the Holidays,” (our very first episode together) was three years ago. So it's time to give it a refresh, hey?
Lesli A. Johnson: Okay, let's do it. I can't believe it's–that was that long ago, but I trust your math.
Haley Radke: I double checked on the website: 2016. So you gave us some really great tips, and I have reposted that episode multiple times. And I've even heard (I don't know if you know this), a couple of different support groups have played it at their meetings, and discussed your techniques and given their members extras. Oh, yeah.
Lesli A. Johnson: Wow! That's wonderful. I'm so glad to do that.
Haley Radke: It's so great. So, let's talk about it. Navigating the holidays as an adopted person…I mean, holidays are stressful for everybody anyway, right? There's all these expectations. There's all this stuff to do. Your calendar gets full. You've got, maybe, multiple commitments and all the things. So it's not–I mean, it's a big deal.
Lesli A. Johnson: It's a big deal. Yeah. I think it's a stressful time for many people, and I think you hit one of the keywords: expectations. So I always tell my clients, kind of approach the holidays with–maybe you can lower your expectations.
Because it's a set kind of a setup, I think, for disaster sometimes, if we have these expectations that everything is going to be perfect, or going into it expecting everything's going to be horrible. Maybe a better way might just be to expect that it's going to be however it is, and really embracing some self-care techniques and ways of working with…activate triggers or activations in the moment. Sort of prepping yourself and having a toolbox of stuff to pull from.
Haley Radke: I love that. Okay, let's start with that. What are just a couple things that we should just have in our toolkit, ready to go if we know that something's gonna be a challenging event?
Lesli A. Johnson: Okay. Well, I think the one thing (this isn't necessarily a tool)--but it's the acknowledgement that when we go back into our families that we grew up with, oftentimes we're immediately catapulted back into that role that we were in our family.
And our other family members treat us like the little sister, or the little girl who didn't have good table manners. And so if we can recognize that we might be doing our work all through the year, our extended family members may not. So again, I think it's about adjusting expectations in terms of practical tools.
You know, I think we talked about this, I guess three years ago (like you said), but just giving ourselves permission to remove ourselves from situations that are uncomfortable. I think as adopted people, a lot of times we had to kind of go along, and I think as adults we, it's okay to say, "Excuse me for a minute." And take a walk.
Or if you're sitting at the table and get activated, do some real grounding techniques: feeling your back against the chair and feeling your feet on the ground, just to kind of get back into your body.
Haley Radke: All right. I think we should dive into some questions from listeners.
So Lesli and I both asked on our social media, if you had questions about surviving the holidays and we got so many questions. It's quite the deal, so we are gonna get to as many as we can.
Now the first one is actually–I thought we would start here because so many of us, even just thinking about this, we're like thinking, Okay, we're juggling our families and maybe we're half juggling bio or adoptive. But I want to start here, because there are a lot of adopted people who have not connected with biological family, or are estranged from biological family, or their adoptive family–either by choice or they have been disowned for searching.
I mean, there is a huge amount of adopted people who are just on their own and they don't have that extended family, either bio or adopted.
So one of the questions we got was, "Am I wrong for not even being around any of my bio or adoptive families during the holidays?" Can you just talk to us about surviving the holidays if you are not connected to family? That can be really challenging and bring up a lot of feelings for someone.
Lesli A. Johnson: Sure. I think that's a really good point, is that a lot of times people don't have family to spend holidays with, and so what can they do in terms of taking care of themselves? Are there friends that they can connect with? Can they do something special for themselves? So I think, again, it's that self-care so that they don't have to maybe be by themselves.
Or alternatively, I know some people who actually use the holiday periods to do things on their own; that they really don't want to be around other people. And that's okay. It's–I think, again, giving yourself permission to do what feels good for you.
And if it doesn't feel good, if you're–if there's loneliness or anxiety, really checking in and seeing what might help with that. It might be that it's spending time with friends rather than family.
Haley Radke: I've also heard from a couple of people that have challenges with the holidays, that they will plan a trip to just get out of there, right? Like they will not just do stuff on their own (in their own city), but they will take a trip somewhere and go to a nice, warm place and they can think about other things rather than having maybe some of those familiar reminders of staying at home.
Lesli A. Johnson: Right, right. Yeah. I think about tradition and people… I think there's sometimes an expectation that generations have to carry on traditions. And I think there could be some intentionality there–picking and choosing what intentions the person wants to carry on and which ones they…
If they want to start a new tradition, and that might be taking a trip over the holidays. That's, personally, what my tradition is now with my partner. He does not care for the holidays for his own reasons. And so we do go away. We go away for a bit between over Christmas and New Year's.
And that has become our tradition and certainly our family members. Some of them were disappointed, but you know, that's okay. It's okay. I don't–I mean, this sounds sarcastic and I don't mean it to be, but nobody's ever (that I know of) has ever died from disappointment.
And, again, if (and I don't mean that sarcastically), although it sounds bad. It's just–it's okay to talk with our family members and explain why we're not gonna attend, that we're not comfortable, or that we're creating new traditions. And it's okay. It's okay to do that.
Haley Radke: Well, okay, so one of the questions is "Is it really okay to skip or change traditions for the sake of my mental health?" So yes, you're saying it's okay.
Lesli A. Johnson: I think it is okay. And I think others would agree. That's not to say that it's easy and it's not to say that people who are changing their families' traditions aren't gonna be met with unfavorable responses.
And again, it's okay. It's not about convincing other people to agree. It's just about stating with you and using "I" statements: "I'm not gonna be able to attend this year because I've made other plans," or "I'm not gonna be able to come to Christmas Eve because Uncle Joe repeatedly makes me uncomfortable."
Whatever the "I" statements are, but that it's not about convincing other people to agree. It's more about just being able to talk about our boundaries and limitations.
Haley Radke: All right. Let's talk about those conversations a little bit more. Here's a question: "I haven't told my adoptive parents that I'm spending Thanksgiving with the other side (which I think they're meaning their biological family). How do I be tactful and objective when maintaining boundaries rather than being defensive?"
Lesli A. Johnson: Hmm. That is a lot of question in that question, and I can't tell from the person if they actually want to share that they're gonna be spending Thanksgiving with the other side (presumably their biological family), or not.
But again, I think it's important to keep in mind that many adoptees have grown up in families where they had to do a lot of work to protect their adoptive parents. That they've been kind of conditioned to be the good kid, the good adoptive adoptee. And maybe for this person, that's asking that question, it's an opportunity to have a real honest conversation with their adoptive parents.
And again, the question wasn't completely specific, but I think that, just considering that they're no longer…The adoptee grows up, the adopted child grows up. So that they're no longer that child. And can they begin to have those adult conversations with their adoptive parents that include some of the hard, but honest parts?
Haley Radke: Okay. Let's do this. Can you give me two different statements they can use? So one is, "We're not going to Thanksgiving because we're going to spend it with someone else." Or, "We're not going to Thanksgiving. And we wanna keep it (the reason) private."
Lesli A. Johnson: Again, just being very honest, "Mom, Dad, we have this long-standing tradition of coming to your house for Thanksgiving and…"
Again, it's hard because I can't, I don't know if this person is in reunion, and if the parents know. But that could be an opportunity to say, "And since I have discovered I have more family, I'm choosing this year to spend part of the holiday with them."
And again, it's navigating a new dynamic, right? Couples have to do this all the time when they have to switch between their family that they grew up with and then their partner's family, back and forth. So it's having that hard conversation.
And again, "Because I'm in reunion, because I wanna be a part of Jim and Donna's life, because this is important to me–I'm choosing to spend Thanksgiving there," maybe. And then if, again, it could be an extended conversation. Maybe, "We could do something the following weekend." Only if that feels comfortable though, not to appease their decision.
Haley Radke: And then if we–maybe they don't know that we're in reunion, and we wanna keep that private.
What's the phrasing that we can use and how do we kind of shut it down if there's more questions that we're not ready to answer?
Lesli A. Johnson: Right. Which I'm guessing ultimately there would be, if you said something like, "I'm choosing this year to do something different." My guess is the natural response would be, "Well, what do you mean? What's different?"
The best thing to do would be to say, "I'd rather not share. I'm not comfortable sharing that right now."
Haley Radke: Okay. All right. That's, I mean, I think that's totally a fair statement and I think so many of us feel like we do owe people the whole story or we–but we don't we can keep, choose to keep things private if we'd like to.
Lesli A. Johnson: Right. And I–none of these conversations aren't necessarily easy, but in my opinion, that doesn't mean we should avoid them. So it's, again, it's reminding ourselves that we're–that we get to kind of pick and choose now, and that we can be honest and we (again), we don't have to convince anyone to agree with us.
Makes me think of the episode that we did on boundaries. It's just starting to establish boundaries and people don't… people that we're establishing boundaries around may not care for that. May not care for that at all.
Haley Radke: Yeah. Well, so here's a question in that same vein:
"Normally my family goes out of state to spend time with my family at Christmas. This year, I want to make that visit shorter in order to also spend time with my biological mother and her family. How can I explain this to my adoptive parents so they don't get upset?"
Oh, there's the key line right at the end there. "We don't want them to be upset."
Lesli A. Johnson: Right. And that's again, to my point, is there may not be an explanation that this person can give his or her parents that won't make them upset. But it's being able also to, you know, "This year, I've chosen to spend some time with my birth mother and her family," and his parents (his adoptive parents) get to feel however they want to feel.
They can feel disappointed, they can feel angry, they can… Again, it's–we can't change how they're gonna react. But when it's explained in a way of, "This is what I need to do this holiday." That it can–it's again, we're not…
Haley Radke: You can't keep everyone happy all the time. It's just not possible.
Lesli A. Johnson: Right, right. That's absolutely true. A lot of times the holidays is sort of the one time of year that maybe we do see family in person. And so, I think that lots of people save up their hard conversations for in-person, because they don't want to do it over text or email (which is–that's a good idea).
However, maybe doing it during the holidays, when things are a little bit charged as it is–I don't know if that's the best idea. Okay. Here's a question from a listener:
"I've determined that I'm never going to have a non-hurtful talk with my adoptive mom about my feelings as an adoptee. I'm pretty 'out' [in quotation marks] with most other people, but I have set this boundary with my mom. I also don't want to hide my feelings anymore, but how do I navigate this?"
Lesli A. Johnson: Yeah, so I think that's really wise. So again, it's practicing all these other skills to maintain, like self-regulation. So it sounds like she's already aware that she's probably gonna get activated while she's in the holiday, the midst of the holidays.
So, what are some things she can do? She can give herself permission to take a break, right? Whether that means go outside, have a support person on speed dial that she can call and connect with (someone who really understands her).
She mentioned that she had friends that understood her. Remind herself that this is temporary, that this period (and I think it's a good one for all of us to remember), that this is the period of the year, and it's temporary. It's gonna have a beginning and an end. And again, she can maybe make (if she's gonna be visiting her parents), maybe she can make arrangements to see other people. I don't know what the exact circumstances, but kind of balance it out and using the tools that she has in her toolbox.
Haley Radke: Okay. Thank you. Let's keep going. Okay. This is sort of a question about language, but there… Boy, there's a whole lot here. So let's see. Okay, let's see what we get to.
"I find myself using language like 'my family' [in quotation marks] when talking about my adopted family to my bios and 'this family' or 'your family' [in quotation marks] when referring to biological family. I think it kind of hurts them."
Okay, so this adoptee is saying, "my family" for adoptive family and "your family," or "this family," when talking about bio family. And then she asks, "Is this something I need to work on? It feels like I'm in between families, so any I give to one side, the other isn't satisfied. I need to figure out a way forward if I'm going to be spending more time with my biological family."
And then she's got a few more questions, which I'll get to. First, let's talk about this language thing. So I think she's feeling like saying "my family" is like the higher level of family, maybe? It's almost like a ranking? Maybe that's what the bio family feels like.
Lesli A. Johnson: Yeah. I think those are conversations to have with everyone involved. Right? So I think language is important, and at the same time, if we can talk about it in an open way… I guess I'm just thinking about–I've worked with a lot of people when adoptive parents, when their child maybe refers to their birth mother as "mom," rather than, forgetting to say "birth mother." And talking to parents and explaining, that they get to call whoever whatever they want, whether it's a first name, or if they forget to say "birth" before mother, then it doesn't have to have that much meaning.
Haley Radke: Or if they choose that. You're choosing to say "Mom."
Lesli A. Johnson: I would encourage this person to talk to everyone involved and find a language that maybe feels comfortable for her, but also maybe she can put herself at ease by expressing just what she did in that question. Does she–is there something there she can maybe unpack, too? What does it mean, "my family"? What does that mean to her? What does it mean "your family"?
And, again, she's saying feels like she's balancing. Well, that is exactly what it is, right? When you're in reunion, you're navigating two kind of worlds. But I think there's no–I think that it would be a conversation that she could have both with her adoptive family and her birth family and just say, "I'm not really sure what's happening here, and I'm still working on the language that feels right to me."
Haley Radke: So she says, "I need to figure out a way forward if I'm going to be spending more time with my biological family. Love is limitless, but finances are not. How do you decide who to visit and when? How do you be secure in your decision and not apologize for it?"
Gee, how do you decide that, Lesli?
Lesli A. Johnson: I don't know. I don't know if even if we talked for the rest of the time about that, if I could answer it. I mean, my first thought is approaching it in a very kind of mindful way of just sort of moment-to-moment, day-to-day, week-to-week, month-to-month.
And not making a big decision about how she's gonna spend…how she's going to spend future holidays or future time, but looking at it at each visit or each phone call. You know, checking in, like, How does this feel? Does this feel good? Do I wanna keep going and pursuing this relationship?
I guess by the tone of the question, it sounds like it's a newer relationship, so (like all relationships), just checking in and What does this feel like? And being aware of times when she might be making decisions based on someone else's expectation of her.
Haley Radke: I totally–this is what I was thinking. I was like, You know what? It's only been in my thirties (true story) that I have taken into account what I want. And so many of us, I think, have (just as you said before), right? We're trying to please our adoptive families. We don't wanna rock the boat, and yet you get to decide what feels good for you, and of course we have the obligations, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
However, we get to choose. And I like that idea of more "in the moment" decisions like you don't have to sit down today and be like, "Oh, let's make our 10 year plan and what is the most fair to everyone and this year it's this family…" and that it doesn't have to be like that.
Lesli A. Johnson: No, and I think it can, I think relationships can evolve naturally when there is that application of kind of just like more of a moment-to-moment awareness.
Haley Radke: And I think you've already addressed a little bit about this, but "How do you be secure in your decision and not apologize?" I think that's really, some of the boundaries piece you were just kind of speaking to and some of the other questions and just having that honest conversation.
And you don't have to explain yourself, right?
Lesli A. Johnson: You don't have to explain yourself. And I think part of it is also being able to sit with some of the discomfort. So, if I decide I'm not gonna spend Christmas Eve with the people that I normally spend it with.
And I let them know that in a clear way, and they're angry, I have to then use my tools to sit with that anger, or that disappointment, and (again), it's not my job to convince someone to agree with me. And I'm saying I don't– it could be you, it could be anyone, but it's learning to sit with the discomfort of someone else not agreeing with us or (again), being disappointed.
Haley Radke: All right. Next question. "This is my first year in reunion. I've done my best to reach out to everyone and keep lines of communication open because that's the standard I want to set. But where is the line between setting a standard and bending over backward for people who aren't putting in the same amount of effort?"
Oh boy. I think we've all been there.
Lesli A. Johnson: That speaks, I think, to what I mentioned earlier about the idea of expectation. So, we're all responsible for doing our work, and we can't make (or even necessarily expect) others to do their work. So I think it's, again, it's taking, it's practicing self-care and then hoping that other people will eventually do their work or will get up to speed, but not having that be the expectation, necessarily.
Haley Radke: Yeah. And you know what I'm kind of reading into this question a little bit is, talking about bending over backward for people who aren't putting in the same amount of effort.
Don't you picture that honeymoon stage where you're, oh my goodness, you're so invested, and you're connecting with all these different people. And this could be maybe siblings, or cousins, or aunts and uncles, and you're figuring out all these different relationships and it's a lot to juggle.
And yet for some people they're like, "Oh, there's a new person. Okay." And it's not as big of a deal as it is for us. And how do you kind of like "right-size" that in yourself without taking it as a rejection?
Lesli A. Johnson: Well, I think (again), it's managing those expectations, and recognizing that reunion means, I think, different things for different people.
And if this particular person is saying that she's all in and she's being truthful and transparent. And bending over backwards for people who aren't doing their work. I might say, maybe look at that. Where can you put your energy?
Where else can you put your energy where that allows you to feel a little bit more fulfilled? Maybe she can stop, or cut back on bending over backwards if it's not reciprocal. Right?
Haley Radke: Yeah, I think, I mean, there's gotta be a point, right? Where you realize it's not reciprocal and then make that decision like, "Okay, well maybe they're not as into it" or, whatever, like that's okay, right? Okay. Interesting. All
All right, let's shift the tone a little bit. Here we go. Oprah's gift guide. No. What is it called? Oprah's favorite things. Yeah, Oprah's favorite things. Here we go. We have a couple questions. Lesli, here we go.
"What gifts should I send my birth father and his family? Do you have any ideas?”
Lesli A. Johnson: Oh, I thought I did not see this coming.
Haley Radke: Okay. Here's one other question. No, I, oh, just wait. It's related. Gift giving with newly found bio relatives. Yea or nay, help. Lesli's quick. She's quickly like looking at Amazon. She's…
Lesli A. Johnson: I'm guessing there's not…The search isn't gonna have “best gifts to give to biological dad.”
Well, I mean, I could easily use some help in this one, Haley, but I would say what I mean…I don't know, books? A journal-like journal that they can document the progress of their reunion? I'm really trying here.
Haley Radke: Oh my goodness. You're actually giving gift ideas. I don't know what I've–I pictured you being like, “Well, what's your budget? And think about what (sort of) you want to do going forward and what's your normal family tradition?” I thought that's where we were gonna go and you're gonna give us a list. This is perfect.
Lesli A. Johnson: I don't know. I would probably think, you know, something…It could be a book. You don't–let's say, You Don't Look Adopted. That'd be a great book, right? Then maybe a journal. What would you–what's your suggestion?
Haley Radke: I was trying to think what I gave my first….Well, I'll tell you, I have had some gift giving misadventures. So I feel like this is a little bit tricky. What I think is, it's okay to have a conversation about it. And say, "Oh, is your family–do you guys give gifts at Christmas? Do you do that? What's usually your price range?" I think it's okay to say some of those things. Because, as I said, I myself had some misadventures in that area, so I think it's okay to talk about it.
Another thing I did with my bio siblings–we've been in reunion almost nine years now. We started, we actually–I had the conversation with them and we started doing a gift exchange where we draw names and so… I mean, do it however you want, but having the conversation about it to set up, "What does this look like? We've never done this before. Do you guys give gifts or are you more an experience family? Do you just call each other on Christmas or whatever? Any holiday that you celebrate, do you (I don't know), exchange Christmas cards?"
This is another question: "Do I send my birth mother my Christmas card this year? She's never responded to me, ever." I mean, those traditions (including gift giving)... I'm gonna go default on Lesli, what Lesli always says: have the conversation about it.
Lesli A. Johnson: I think it's that you have a…I had that conversation with my biological family (which is my birth mother, Candace, and then her brother, and her brother's wife), and we just decided they're not big on gifts. That was pretty easy. But I think if you don't have the conversation and make assumptions, that's not a great way to go either. But the conversation, and then a monetary limit, and… I mean, it would be really hard to give something to someone that if, especially if you just are getting to know them, right?
Haley Radke: Well, okay, I'm picturing this: you are like, Oh my gosh, it's our first union reunion. Here's my chance. And I am a gift giver. So I-– gifts is my love language. And you plan it all out, and you have this thoughtful gift, and you send this journal that you can write back and forth and you send… And then you don't get anything. Right? Think about just how devastated that could make someone, so if you don't have the conversation, or even just be like, "Oh, I'm dropping your parcel in the mail today." Letting them know something's coming so that they know, Oh, this is a gift giving situation.
Lesli A. Johnson: Right, right. Yeah. And all that could be avoided if you have that initial conversation, right?
Haley Radke: Yep. And Lesli is gonna drop her 10 things list of: Things to Give Your Dad.
Lesli A. Johnson: No. A little bit. That's a little bit more thorough.
Haley Radke: Okay. All right. Well, I think that was our most lighthearted question. We have just a couple more, some heavy stuff coming up.
"I have the worst time with holidays. Growing up, I never wanted to go to family gatherings because I obviously didn't fit in, and I felt uncomfortable in my adoptive family. I no longer associate with them, but now I feel the same way gathering with my fiancé's family. It's uncomfortable and a huge trigger for me to drink. I'm a recovering alcoholic. How can I help myself feel more comfortable in family gatherings, when I've never fit into a family and my main goal is to be accepted?"
Lesli A. Johnson: I guess I'm thinking about again, ways this person can take care of themselves in the midst of feeling uncomfortable. So, my first thought was, Where can she get the support that she needs?
So again, maybe she has a friend, or a support her go-to person on speed dial that she can kind of touch base with. Does she, has she shared with her fiancé what her earlier experiences were growing up? The holidays that she had with her family growing up, and why they were painful? And can she let him in on that, so that he's a part of that so that he has an awareness.
And then what can she do while she's there? Again, some of these just very practical grounding techniques can be really helpful when she gets triggered. This may sound really silly, but just even breathing. And if you're sitting at the dinner table and you're starting to feel uncomfortable, but you don't want to get up and walk away, just start taking breaths. And it doesn't have to be obvious, but there's a little trick, where if you exhale a little bit longer than you inhale. So if you breathe in for a couple counts, and you exhale for–breathe in for two or three counts and exhale for four counts, that activates the parasympathetic nervous system, which is the "breaks" of our nervous system.
So it calms us down. Nobody has to see you do that. Maybe she can, maybe, if it's possible, she can attend a meeting before something that she knows is going to be really triggering. And again, having a person that she can reach out to. If it's not, if it's a friend or someone–that sponsor, someone that she can contact if things get really uncomfortable for her.
Haley Radke: I have a couple questions about that, I guess. I don't really know too much about recovery, or if people like, share that–if people would know that she's a recovering alcoholic? What are your thoughts on making sure there's no alcohol at the event? Is that something people do? Do they, like, reach out and say, "Oh, can we keep this a dry event? Because I know someone's coming that's in recovery." Is that something…? I don't know.
Lesli A. Johnson: Yeah, I think it differs for everyone. I mean, I certainly know people who are in recovery that being around alcohol isn't an issue for them– isn't a trigger for them and others who it is. And so I guess that again, would be a conversation for she and her fiancé to have, well before they go to the holiday events, right? And if that's something that is–if having that around maybe it would automatically mean she wouldn't be able to attend if that was a trigger for her. But again, having this conversation prior with her fiancé.
Haley Radke: Yeah. And then the other thing is I was thinking like, do you have to go to things like this? There's always that choice as well, right? Have the conversation, yes. And say, "You know what? I'm just really not comfortable at big family gatherings. Is there one or two people in your family that you really want to connect with over the holidays? Can we have them over here for supper?"
Like an alternate way that she can still be involved with the family, but it doesn't have to be on such a mass scale. I don't know. I think that's a hard thing to ask for, but I think that might be a healthy thing to do. What do you think?
Lesli A. Johnson: Yep. I think that's a great idea and I think just even the wording of this question, “How can I help myself feel more comfortable in family gatherings? Gatherings when I've never fit in, and the main goal is to be accepted?” So I think that is a theme for a lot of people who are adopted. This idea of fitting in and I don't fit in. I would say now as an adult, finding places where you do fit in. So rather than trying to fit into places that you don't feel comfortable, find places where you really do feel comfortable and let that, let those places, and those experiences be your guide.
I think that's what we strive to do. I think in your work, and certainly in my work, is helping people find community. And whether that's an online community or in-person community. But those are places where adopted people feel like they fit in and don't have to make accommodations or, kind of change, or turn into shape shifters so that they fit in. They just are ultimately–they're accepted, just as they are.
Haley Radke: Right. And you can choose what things you want to participate in and what things aren't…I think I've said this a few times today, that there's this obligation and then there's all these events and things like…we don't have to do any of those things. Like we don't have to.
Lesli A. Johnson: It's true. I think though, and I absolutely agree with you… I think that has to be a real intentional thought process, though, because for many adopted people, they've had to go along. They've had to try to fit into their adoptive family. And so that's kind of a conditioning.
And so this idea that as an adult, Hey, you're right, I don't have to try to fit in. I can find places where I already know I fit in and I can say no, and I can… I think your idea of talking to a partner and saying, "I don't feel comfortable in big family events. Let's have a couple people over to the house." Or you could say, "I don't feel comfortable, but I really know it's important for you. So is it okay if you go by yourself?" I mean, some people might think that's horrific, but actually, no. It's okay.
Haley Radke: It's okay. I love that. Okay, this question is from a late discovery adoptee. She has a lot of hurt feelings towards her adoptive sisters who are older than her, and they knew she was adopted and they helped to keep the secret.
"My sisters have always been around me and never told me the truth out of respect for my adoptive mom. Eleven years ago, my adoptive mom wanted to tell me that I was adopted before she died of lung cancer, but I was four months pregnant and she didn't want me to be affected in any way. I know they love me and they wanted to protect me, but I'm still so hurt. How do I get over this?"
And so I imagine she's going to be seeing her sisters in the holidays and oh my goodness, this is like– Late discovery adoptee, this is like a life-changing thing. And this has just–she's just found out in this year that she was adopted.
Lesli A. Johnson: I think… and that sounds so difficult. And I think we could apply what we've been talking about this, for this whole episode is: perhaps (this year), a holiday gathering isn't something that she wants to attend. Making that… Checking in and deciding, is it something that is in her best interest this year? Or does she need a little more time?
If she's processing her anger. And it's not about, I don't think, getting over feelings. It's about moving through them, right? So she just may need more time to process what she's going through, and giving herself permission not to attend. If she decides to attend, all the other things that we've talked about: taking breaks, if she normally stays in the family home, maybe she'll decide to stay somewhere else at a more neutral place. Or if it's going to be…normally it's a week-long visit, maybe it's cut short to a couple days? Again, just permission to take care of herself.
Haley Radke: Can you give us some ways to say, "I don't want to talk about that right now?"
Right, because I think at events like this, there–especially when there's something like simmering under the surface, right? I think, sometimes conversations can veer into territory that we don't want to go there, because we're worried that something's going to erupt, right? So how can you say, "I don't wanna talk about that right now" in a polite way?
Lesli A. Johnson: Well, I think you could say, "You know what? I'm not comfortable talking about that right now." And you could just keep repeating that. And if someone doesn't respect that, you can put some distance between that person and yourself. I mean, there's, I think that's, "I'm not comfortable talking about that right now and I…" That can be adoption related stuff, family related stuff, politics, any… Imagining this year there's going to be a lot of people saying, "I'm not comfortable talking about that right now."
Haley Radke: Okay. That's great. There's another podcast I listen to and one of their favorite ways (it's kind of become a joke now), one of the favorite ways they just say, "Oh that's interesting. Can you pass the bean dip?" That's been, like, the way of getting out of those uncomfortable topics.
Lesli A. Johnson: That's interesting. That's interesting. Like that.
Haley Radke: I've never had an event that had bean dip at it, but I mean, I guess…? Okay. And even when I asked you the question, I was like, Ooh, how do you ask this while being polite?
You don't have to be polite. And even I–your answer is polite, I do think. But you also don't necessarily need to be, like, protecting yourself from getting triggered, protecting yourself from perhaps exploding, or crying, or whatever things that you might not want to do publicly. Like you'd rather run to the bathroom to have a good cry, or whatever. I think it's totally fair to just be like, "Nope, we're not going there right now."
Lesli A. Johnson: Right. Right. And again, the goal isn't the goal is not having everyone like us, agree with us, or be okay. It–that might make someone angry that we're unwilling to talk about something that makes us uncomfortable, but that doesn't mean we have to do it.
We don't– it's perfectly okay to say, "You know what, I'm really not comfortable talking about that right now," or, "I'm really not comfortable talking about that. Period." Not saying, “period,” but you know, not even inviting the conversation for another time.
Haley Radke: Right. Okay. That's a really good point. That's a really good point. The other thing I just wanted to go back to this late discovery adoptee that's asking a question. I think if you're able to, I think it'd be really important for you to start processing some of this with a therapist and if you want to (or if possible), you could also do that with your sisters if you're hoping to repair the relationship.
How do you think about that, Lesli? Having a mediated conversation with a therapist? I know. I know what you're gonna say.
Lesli A. Johnson: Absolutely, in any of these conversations… So any of these questions that people have asked, having that extra support of working with a therapist that gets adoption, that gets reunion, that gets–that understands family would just be an added benefit for sure.
And if her–it sounds like she cares about her sisters and if the sisters are willing to be a part of that healing journey–yes, absolutely. Great idea.
Haley Radke: All right, here is our last question.
"I was adopted around this time of year at a young age. My mother's Christmas gift was actually a paper stating my name had been officially changed."
Oof. Can I just say, yikes? Maybe this person loved this. I don't know. That for me is a yikes. Okay. Back to the question. Naturally, this time of year is more emotionally charged.
"I'm thinking about sitting my mom down and asking more questions about my story. I'm informed, but there are questions I've been scared to ask, but I don't really know how to go about it or even if I should, lest it trigger things."
Oooh. Okay. Now this question is one that I was sort of alluding to earlier when I was like, "Is now the best time to have these big conversations?"
Lesli A. Johnson: Right. Right. And that's a–I mean, that's a good question for the person to ask themselves: if already this time of year is activating for this person, maybe wait until after the holidays to ask more questions.
But certainly, if the questions are important and wanting to have more information, I think it certainly is a great conversation to have. But I agree with you. Maybe this time of year (around the holidays) isn't the best time.
Haley Radke: I mean, I think–I said this much earlier, when I was saying how this might be the only time we're in person with people. And so we feel like there's this extra sense of importance and Okay, now we can finally do this thing.
Lesli A. Johnson: Okay. So that's, yeah… If that's the case, I might suggest this person talking to (maybe to) her mom now and saying, "We're gonna be together over the holidays and can we schedule a time where we could go (just the two of us can go) and have tea, or have coffee? And there's some things I wanna talk about."
So kind of like laying the foundation for that conversation, and then be intentional about following up once they're together.
Haley Radke: Oh my gosh. I love that. That's so good. I didn't even think of that because it's…I don't know. I think sometimes when we–when this has been building and building, right?
And then you're at Christmas dinner or whatever, and you're like, Okay, now that it's out there, let's have this conversation when we're all three drinks in. And in front of everyone. Yeah. I mean, there's a time and place. Okay. That's so good. That's so good, Lesli. Okay. Thank you so much for such thoughtful answers, good advice.
I love so many takeaways. Is there anything else you want to just leave us with as we go into this season? Knowing that some things are gonna be challenging, we might be balancing a couple different things. Any tools or any last thoughts before we wrap up?
Lesli A. Johnson: Sure. I think it's just important to manage expectations, remind ourselves that this time is temporary. Enjoy the parts that can be enjoyed–put a lot of focus on those parts. Make sure we have our support systems intact, so we need to connect with them. And also just, I think, reminding ourselves that we can't please everyone and not everyone's gonna agree with the decisions that we make when it comes to taking care of ourselves and–but that's okay.
Haley Radke: And my two cents–You guys, I'm not a therapist. I podcast in my basement. My two cents is, we also get to decide what our celebrations look like or what our traditions…all of those things. We can start new any year and make our own traditions, our own celebrations. And giving some thought ahead of time to what we want things to look like, I think, is for… And what is within our own power to do. I think that's really been a healthy thing for me to do with my immediate family, especially. And I don't know, I think having those thoughtfully planned out things is, like, great. And there's also the spur of the moment, celebratory things we can do with friends. I think there's a lot of ways we can build in some nice things for ourselves during a season that can be so stressful.
Lesli A. Johnson: Absolutely. I completely agree with that. Yeah, we can't change others' reactions, but we can really take care of ourselves and it, like you said, there's–it's always okay to start new traditions.
Haley Radke: Awesome. All right. Wow, thank you so much. I loved that conversation. It was so fun, and I look forward to seeing your "Top 10 List" of things you should buy your new family for Christmas. Newly-found family, I should say.
Lesli A. Johnson: Perfect. I'm gonna start on that right now.
Haley Radke: Okay. And so we don't miss that. Where can we connect with you online?
Lesli A. Johnson: You can connect with me at my website, askadoption.com, Instagram at Ask Adoption, and Facebook at Ask Adoption, and Twitter @LesliAJohnson.
Haley Radke: Wonderful. Thanks so much, Lesli.
Oh my gosh. I love talking with Lesli, and I love teasing her. I don't think she's actually gonna write us a list of 10 key things we should gift, but that would be awesome if she did. Anyway, I hope that this was helpful for you, that you had some good takeaways of things that you can do to navigate this season, which is often a fraught time.
Anyway, I want to say a huge thank you to people who have been giving me something amazing, and that is their monthly support. Thank you. Without you, I literally could not keep doing this podcast, so thank you. I'm just so grateful. I've said thank you a million times. I'm gonna keep saying it. If you want to join them, go to adopteeson.com/partner.
It has the details of what you get as bonuses for your monthly support. There's even a whole other podcast I do. You guys, you're really missing out if you haven't heard Adoptees Off-script. There are some very candid conversations happening over there that are just too private to share on this main feed.
So adopteeson.com/partner has the details for that. I also want to thank those of you who share the show on social media. Those of you who have shared with your adoptees' support groups, those of you that have told one friend about an episode of the show that was meaningful for you. And that just means so much to me.
Adoptees On only grows when you share the show, and I'm so thankful when you do. And I can't respond to every tag, every DM, every email. It's just not in my capacity. But I do read as many as I can, and I'm so thankful for those of you who have sent thoughtful, lovely emails thanking me for the show. And you know who you are.
I'm just so grateful for your kind words. It sounds like I'm wrapping up. I'm not. We are gonna have a few more new episodes before the end of the year. I will let you know when our wrap-up date is, and then when you can expect new episodes back. I'm gonna guess mid-January. So thanks so much for listening.
Let's talk again, next Friday.
