136 [Healing Series] Hidden Dignity Part 1
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Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/136
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You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. I'm your host, Haley Radke. And this is a special episode in our Healing Series, where I interview therapists who are also adoptees themselves, so they know from personal experience what it feels like to be an adoptee. Today is part one of my conversation with Pam Cordano on Hidden Dignity. Let's listen in.
I'm so pleased to welcome back to Adoptees On, Pam Cordano. Hi, Pam.
Pam Cordano: Hi, Haley.
Haley Radke: I am gonna start crying. Oh my gosh. Okay. We got on the call and I was like, I'm not talking about your book. We're not talking about it until we start recording because I didn't— I wanted to save every second of this.
Oh my gosh. Your book is just, it's so beautiful. I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna cry. Oh my gosh. Okay.
Pam Cordano: No, I'm gonna start crying.
Haley Radke: Get it together. Okay. So, Pam has been on the show so many times. You guys know her and love her just like I do. And she has this gorgeous offering for us in the world, and it's called Ten Foundations for Meaningful Life (No Matter What's Happened): to Viktor Frankl, with love.
And I was reading through it and just crying, and having all these light bulb moments. And just being like, Okay, what if you just read us the whole book on the show? That would be, that would just be so delightful. It's such a gift to read your words and just to know the heart you have for adopted people, and the freedom you want them to have. And the things you've learned in your lifetime, many of which you've shared with us on the show before.
And I don't know what to say. Just thank you and I'm so proud of you and I just… Oh my gosh. I'm hugging your book because you're far away. But…
Pam Cordano: Thank you, Haley. It means a lot to me. I mean, yeah, it's a big deal for any of us to put our hearts on the line, and our stories on the line, and our opinions on the line. It's hard and vulnerable. It's a big deal.
Haley Radke: And you share some very personal parts of your story that are like, I wonder if people know that about you. You have really some painful snippets of your life that have impacted you so deeply. And yeah, talk about vulnerable. I mean, incredible. Okay. I'm gonna stop gushing. Yikes. Okay.
One thing you and I have talked about sort of off-air in between our conversations over the years is how many adoptees we see kind of get stuck. And we look back at our circumstances, and we've emerged from the fog, and we're like, Man, adoption sucks. It really screwed up my life. And then we kind of get stuck there. Can you talk a little bit about that?
Pam Cordano: I’ve lived…I'm 55 (almost). I'm 54 and a little bit, and or I'm almost 55 and I know what that's like, because I lived there most of my entire life, in that place of being really angry and being full of grievance. And so aware of the injustice of it all, and I know that place really, really well. In fact, I mean, I know the place and I know what it's like to believe that's the only place, and to not see an exit door. And to not think that an exit door makes any sense at all. And to even think that–to not think, to believe that to leave my grievance would be to leave my soul.
That it's the truest thing about me. That if someone doesn't understand what happened to me, and how unfair it was, and no matter what things look like on the surface, what a bad deal I got... Not just with my early life, and then not just with my adoptive family, but also with my whole reunion with both parents and their families, then they don't know me.
And so to know me is to know my grievance. And without that, I'm not known. That's how I used to feel. I–
Haley Radke: The line in the book that you have is, you say, “Until later in life, I didn't want to abandon my grievances. I thought they were my deepest truths.”
Pam Cordano: Totally. Period. They were the truths that had been with me from the very beginning and even in conception, all the way until the present. And they felt like the ground floor of my life, the foundation of my life.
Haley Radke: And I'm assuming that you have seen other adoptees act like that.
Pam Cordano: Totally. Yeah. Yeah. And when they do, I completely understand. I feel a kinship with them. I understand. I could jump right in and join the party of how awful it's been, and what a miracle it is that we've even stayed alive.
Haley Radke: Right. So what's the next thing? When did you realize Oh, I might be stuck in thinking this? and Is there more than this?
Pam Cordano: I think it has been a really gradual process. I've always been a person that's been going to therapy and things like that, that I've talked about before on the show. One part was (and it was through writing the book that I really got clear about this), that the only reason I could work with cancer patients even before I had cancer.
And the only reason that cancer patients were really the only people I wanted to work with was because they were living in a life that was half-alive and half-dead. And they had their own grievance. Why me? Why my body, why this disease? My kids are toddlers. I don't wanna leave them. I haven't had my fair shake. I haven't had kids yet, and now my uterus is gone. And they had their own version of grievance.
And of course, I– My bias is that adoption is the hardest thing because it happened from the beginning, so we… Our brains were so not ready to deal with all that we had to deal with. So I, in my heart, feel like that was worse.
I'd rather have ordered a whole different family situation and not have been adopted than even if I got Stage IV cancer when I was 30. And maybe that's not fair for me to say. It gets complicated comparing pain; it gets really complicated. And it feels a little bit dangerous to even say that.
But my point is just how hard it is when you're adopted and also when you don't connect with your adoptive family. And when reunion doesn't go well, and all those things that we talk about together (all of us). But to work with people with cancer, the thing that surprised me was how much they loved life (the people I was working with).
They were (many of them were) dying; most of them back when I was an intern, were dying. And they didn't want to go. They didn't want to leave behind life. And it wasn't just their family and their kids and their dreams, but it was also the little mundane things. Like in the book, I talk about this guy Mike, with a squirrel. And there were lots of stories. A woman, the day before she died in a hailstorm, who was in love with the hail–and I use the word rapture. She felt rapture from this hailstorm. And so I was seeing how much people that were not me loved life, and it was just a bit of a– I could see it through their eyes a bit, because death was on the table.
So because death was on the table, and suffering and injustice, then I could hear them when they talked about life. But the happy people that just want to talk about the happy things, I couldn't hear them. All that came up for me was the grievance and thought, Yeah, try being in my shoes and then talk about how nice your Thanksgiving was, or whatever I might think to myself.
Haley Radke: It seems like such a big shift, though, to go from the victimhood mentality, (which I think is what it is) to being like, Okay, so then what? What's the next thing?
Pam Cordano: Another thing is then (this is all throughout spiritual and religious literature), is the idea that a grievance hurts us more than it hurts the people we have a grievance against.
And on an intellectual level, I found that really interesting. It's like Okay, am I doing something that hurts me more than that person and those people? That's even more unfair if that's the case. But to think that, and to try that on intellectually is completely different than being able to feel it.
So I spent years not wanting to have grievances, and wanting to get the grievances out of my body and out of my mind. My mind would just go around and around and around with the same old grievances, and the triggers, and the storylines. And the intrusive thoughts of people in my birth family that I didn't want to be thinking about, or imagining what they were doing without me, or this and that and the other thing. It was like intrusive thoughts of the grievances. Does that make sense?
Haley Radke: Yeah. Absolutely.
Pam Cordano: So I would say that it took a really long time, because I wanted to be done with my grievances, because they were hurting me so much. I mean, my mind was tense, my brow was furrowed, my shoulders were tight…
I woke up angry, I was angry during the day—much more angry than I acted in the world. I would put on sort of a nice act (I'm a therapist after all), angry at night… I was just angry.
And like we talked before with my kids, and my kids would act entitled, or spoiled (or something), and I would just feel enraged. Like they have no idea how much they have compared to what I had, and they want this, or they want that. It's ridiculous, you know. So I hope you can see, I know this land of grievance. I know “Grievance Land.”
Haley Radke: And how does it feel to be the therapist and you're guiding someone through a challenging time? And you're giving them these tools, and you're listening to them. And yet on the inside (I don't know), what's your self-talk like? Really? Really? This is what we're talking about.
Pam Cordano: I tend to see people with really big problems. And that's who I really like to see. I see people who are suicidal. I see people who are paralyzed. I see people with very serious cancer and other illnesses. I see people who have had traumatic loss. And I see people who are adopted now more than I used to. And so usually who I have worked with–I don't have that thought, much.
And even if I did, I would kind of feel sorry for them. If somebody had a wonderfully sort of easy life, and they were complaining, I would kind of—I'd be curious, like on the human level. What's this? How strange! It’s like an alien to me.
Haley Radke: And like Is this really what we're talking about? Or is there something below that?
Pam Cordano: Exactly right. Yeah.
Haley Radke: Yeah. Okay. Okay. Okay. I'm trying to get the therapist dirt, you know.
Pam Cordano: Yeah, we can do that!
Haley Radke: No, I'm joking. But yeah, so wow, you're seeing really challenging things happening. And also an understanding that you yourself have had this challenging thing happen.
And so moving from grievance to what? Forgiveness? Is that the next thing? Or is it– is there something in between there?
Pam Cordano: Okay. Step one was: I started to recognize the amount of pain the grievances were causing me physically, emotionally, mentally (in relationships). So I was–often they say the first step is awareness. I became aware of the cost to me of all my grievances. And so then I didn't know what to do about them.
And I used to hate the word forgiveness. I still kind of do, because it's not easy to forgive. And so actually I've studied grievances to try to understand What's the anatomy of a grievance? How do we create a g–? How do we literally create a grievance so that then I could uncreate my grievances?
So there's this guy, his name is Fred Luskin, and he has this project at Stanford called the–I think it's called the Stanford Forgiveness Projects (with an -s at the end).
And he has a book called Forgive for Good. And my favorite part of his work that I read was that (Oh my gosh. This is gonna be interesting to put out into words.). This is actually in my book. But there's a recipe for a grievance, and here's what we have to do. And I'll use myself as an example.
I had an intern who warned me she did not get along with women. So that's the most normal thing in the world. She's just warning… Here, we're gonna work together. And she's warning a woman that she doesn't get along with women. Okay. That's–nothing's happened yet that's out of the ordinary.
That's what–that's how she feels. That's what she does. So the second thing is we worked together for about two weeks and then she fired me. And I was so offended. But the second thing we have to do, then, is make ourselves the center of the story. Somehow, she was doing this thing to me.
I had generously opened my practice to her. I had done my best to take good care of her, and help her become a therapist, and she has the nerve to somehow decide that I wasn't good for her, and fire me. And I was just so offended. So I put myself now in the center of the story as if this is entirely about me. And then the third thing we have to do is just tell ourselves. Go over it, and over it in our minds again and again—like bazillions of times.
And I did that for probably three years. I just went over it, and over it. I was so offended. And I would see her in town and I would hear her name come up, and I would see her at events. And I was just full of grievance and just so mad at her. And then the next thing we have to do is we have to remove all other possibilities that this story means something different than we think it does.
My story is: She screwed me over. I opened my heart to her and she screwed me over. (And you can probably hear the adoptee in here, right?). There's a woman rejecting me. What does that feel like? It's–of course I'm super, super triggered by it. But nothing else is now possible.
It's not that she might have trauma from her past (with her mother), and she may just legitimately have trouble with women. And it may not be personal about me at all. And she might have wanted it to work, but it just didn't. And she might have felt awkward about changing supervisors, so she might have just done it awkwardly, or suddenly.
And maybe since then she's done more work on her relationship with women and her mother, and she's free of it now. And maybe it wouldn't turn out this way. It's just not so personal. So then we remove all other possibilities, and then that's how we have a grievance. So I started to try to imagine with some of my grievances (once I started learning this formula), how to back it all up.
And I used to laugh to myself about the part about making it self-centered. And it was a relief. It was like, Okay, if this story is so much about me, I–Then that feels better, because adoption felt so much like me. Like adoption. The fact that I was adopted felt entirely about my inherent lack of worthiness.
It was the proof that I wasn't worthy to be here in the world. So I might have said on the show to you before, but I felt full of humiliation and shame about being adopted. And I felt humiliated that this intern would fire me publicly. It was like everybody was gonna know. It's part of the story, the grievance story. Is this too convoluted or is it okay?
Haley Radke: No! It's so interesting, because you're giving this example of–I mean, I don't want to negate it in any way. It's this small example of something that happened to you, but it's had a big impact, right? You said you thought about it for years and it was this big thing, and then taking that back to the example of, “I'm adopted.” It's like your whole life structure revolves around that. It's not this two week interaction you had with this person.
Pam Cordano: No. Right. And I think what worried me about myself–it doesn't worry me now because I've gone I've… Something has shifted inside, which is why we're even talking about this. And you're asking about, “How did that shift happen?”
But before something shifted (I'm not sure if this is accurate), but what I felt like was my grievances were more intense, and more extreme, and upsetting, and agonizing than anybody else's I knew. My friends–none of my friends were adopted at that point. Now I have adopted friends, too, because of your show. But I just–when I compared my reactions to things compared to theirs, I felt like I was just really effed up.
Haley Radke: Is there something about that, though? This'll be like in generalized terms, but for someone that is kind of stuck in My story just sucks and there's nothing I can do about it, that we're just collecting evidence.
Pam Cordano: Totally right. We have a worldview, and then we collect evidence. And one of the things I wrote about in my book in Chapter two about dignity is I believe that we all (deep down) know that it's not true. That we're not worth nothing, that we're not worth giving away, that we're not worth being adopted, that we're not worth family-lessness, or all that we've been through. And so that is really the basis, in my opinion, the basis of our anger. We know it's not right, because we're worth more than that.
And the reason people have problems with the way adoption laws are and practices are, is that we know we're worth more than the way it's done. And we're worth more than being adopted at all. So getting mad is actually–we wouldn't even be if we… If I really believed I was worth being given away, I wouldn't have anything to be mad about.
I would just—I don't know. I'd just take my place in the corner or something. I mean, read a book. I wouldn't be all mad, but I was infu…I was furious. I was furious since I was four.
Haley Radke: Okay. So I'm having a major light bulb moment, right? Because that is so insightful, that just the very reason we’re mad, or upset, or that something is like— there's disconnect, something wrong happened… It means something.
Pam Cordano: It means something important. It means something about what we know. We know our value. We know it.
Haley Radke: And so it's like, Why can't anybody else see that? I don't…
Pam Cordano: Yeah. Why can't anybody else see that? And why is everybody being complicit in this? And why is no one talking about this horrific thing that was done to me? And don’t I ma—
I mean, I do matter. That's the thing, that it's not, Don't I matter? It's actually, I'm mad and I'm saying don't I matter? But deep down, at some level, I know I do matter and this is just wrong and I need more overt love and acknowledgement of what this has been.
Haley Radke: I'm thinking about all the people that write to me once they've heard a few episodes of the show, and usually when they do, the words that come are very much, Oh my gosh, I finally get it. I finally feel seen, or I finally feel understood.
There's the validation and I mean–holy smokes! How to have a moment that you're like, Oh my gosh, someone else gets it. Someone else sees that I am worthy. And why did this happen to me? What is that moment? Oh, me. Wow.
Pam Cordano: Yeah I think that and I did this (and I see this at the adoptee retreats that Anne and I have, too), that people are angry. And they're disconnected, and sometimes they're addicted, and they’re all kinds of things, railing against their experiences. But they don't yet have it put together that they–some part of them does think that they're worth something, or else they wouldn't even be… They wouldn't have a basis for being mad if they, you know what I mean?
The runt of the litter. When you think about Charlotte's Web–I don't know if, remember if there was a runt in that movie? But they're not off like setting the farm on fire. They're just like, they take their place. They're not arguing, but we who have a problem with it are… We're trying to value ourselves and we do value ourselves at some level.
It just may not be connected up. So I'm trying to flip–I'm trying to flip the script here. You know what I'm trying to do here?
Haley Radke: I have nothing to say, because I'm just like, Whoa. Whoa. And I read your book, and I read it very thoroughly. And I super did not understand that in Chapter two. It's just because I'm like, Oh, I guess. Right? You skim over things that you're like, Oh, she's not talking about me for that. I don't think I have worth, you know? There's something to that. Ewww, that feels yucky.
Pam Cordano: But maybe the yucky isn't 100% yucky.
Haley Radke: But I have–I've literally sat with people around a table who tell me that same thing, right? “I've always felt worthless. I've always, I've like…” That whole thing. And to know that you're only expressing that because deep down you actually think you're valuable?
Pam Cordano: Right. And you know what the most important reason I want to…? But I have so much passion about this piece of the conversation…is that what I care about is helping people save their lives. And not just their life from suicide, but their quality of life and their dreams for their futures that can become more about who they are, at some point. And less about what the dream is in terms of the grievance–a grievance-based dream. But just dreams that are free of, that are possibly different and possibly even coming from outside the wound (if that's even possible). I didn't used to think that was possible.
The point of my book was I had to find a way to save my life. This book to me is about saving my life. And so then when I share that thing about dignity, or some belief that we do know we have value underneath it all, I'm not saying that to be positive or make people think it's not as bad as it is. I'm saying that to help people see– Like if they can connect to that, then they've got the basis to start turning something around a little bit. Do you know what I mean? Like dignity is power. And we have it.
Haley Radke: But even just that thought of saving your life, it's so profound. And as I said before, so many of us get stuck in the black hole of, Adoption sucks, and, Why did this happen to me?
And you see the anger, you see the anger in what they write online. You see the anger in person, the impact it's had, constantly pushing people away... We all know people that are like that, or you recognize in yourself, probably. If I'm talking about that, am I talking about you?
Pam Cordano: Yeah, definitely. Yeah, hating the world, hating people, hating me... Yeah.
Haley Radke: Yeah! But a call to, “What could life be if you can process some of that? And find this meaning?”
Pam Cordano: Okay, so having a grievance is an active thing. It requires our minds, our emotions, and our whole bodies. It's a very–it's a full-on experience, having a grievance. And so, if we start to notice how uncomfortable it is when we're in a grievance (which I did).
I mean, like I said, I had muscle tension. I got headaches a lot. I had jaw tension. I had stomach aches from holding everything so tightly, had rage at people. I had a feeling of overwhelm, like I could barely take one more thing. And I started to not want my body–I guess, because I started to care about myself. I wanted–I didn't want my body to feel so bad, so often. So I started to try to practice having a softer body (even though that was counterintuitive), because when you're trying to save your life and protect yourself from humiliation and bad things, it's hard to let that defense structure down.
Haley Radke: So what does that mean, “having a softer body”?
Pam Cordano: I actually started with my kids. I was raising my kids and I would feel mad at them a lot. And I mean, I'm soft-pedaling this. I felt mad all the time, honestly. At them and everything else. So I remember hearing somewhere, maybe it was at a retreat or something... I heard something about trying to parent with a soft body, and that was really like a revolutionary idea to me. So I remember, I would walk in the front door from work or somewhere and I would try to soften my belly.
I would just try to soften my sh–drop my shoulder, soften my belly, and try to walk in the house. And my intention was: whatever they were doing, whatever they said, whatever they did or didn't do, I was going to try to communicate with them while keeping my belly soft at the same time. To not get into the pattern of reactivity and anger that was beyond what they were responsible for, obviously. You know?
And so I think my kids were important enough to me to be worth practicing, that I had a dial on my body. I wasn't just trapped in grievances. I had a say about what I did with my softening it, or not softening it. Or trying to soften it, and then failing (or whatever).
Haley Radke: It's so interesting that you say that, right? Because it's–Of course, tension is like this tight thing, but I don't know that the opposite of that would be like, Oh, soft. But telling that to your body…Oh, that's interesting! That's a good one.
So how does that go to unwrapping this grievance? Of that fact that I'm adopted?
Pam Cordano: So then I started going into public, practicing having a soft body. And I thought, Okay, if I'm in a meeting or with a client and somebody does or says something that triggers me or threatens me or anything, I'm gonna see what happens if I keep my body soft.
I even went on rollercoaster rides at Disneyland, trying to–the entire ride, keep my body soft. Just start just…I wanted to master, like I get to decide. I get to decide when my body's soft. And the weird thing is, it's not weird at all, actually! When our shoulders are dropped, and our bodies are more soft, we don't feel as triggered.
And so we can start with our brains and try to think our way out of a problem, or we can start with our bodies and try to let our bodies unwind. And it goes much faster with the body involved, I promise.
Haley Radke: I'm just thinking about the story you told in your book about your body deciding not to vomit anymore?
Pam Cordano: Yeah.
Haley Radke: Which you don't have to share! People will have to read the book to get that one, but wow! I cannot picture being soft on a rollercoaster. That's amazing. That's amazing.
Pam Cordano: Yeah. And actually, after my father (this is not in the book), after my father died… My dad scared me, so I stopped vomiting when I was four. And after he died seven years ago, I got norovirus and I vomited. I'm not kidding. I vomited 88 times and I was terrified, because I have a terror of vomiting. And I've met a lot of other adoptees who do, also. Something about losing control? And so what I did was, I actually went to the ER, because it was really extreme.
But as I was vomiting I imagined my dad putting his hand on my back (which in real life, I would never want his hand anywhere near me)-- But he had his hand on my back and just saying, “I'm sorry. Just go; just let it out.” And I tried relaxing my body, even then. Because I felt like, That's my power. So much about being adopted is not having power, but what we do with our bodies is something that is in our power.
Haley Radke: I don't know how you make me cry every time. I don't understand.
Pam Cordano: What are you crying about? What is it?
Haley Radke: Wow. I'm just picturing you in that moment, and picturing your dad having his hand on your back. And I just–that's so moving. Being able to recapture something that you should have had: you should have had a compassionate parent that could take care of you when you were sick.
Pam Cordano: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, and imagery is really powerful, because our bodies really don't know the difference between what we imagine and what actually happens. So that's why (we've talked about this on your show before)... But if we imagine eating a lemon, our mouth will water anticipating the sour lemon juice.
And in the same way, sometimes there are ways to imagine pieces of the world that we didn't get. And again, that goes together with dignity, because we do deserve those things. And so even though they may not be “true” in our lived experience (and that does matter), it's also true that we deserve them.
So if me giving myself my father's support, when he was the source of my terror, was kind to myself. And I felt like it was honoring myself, somehow.
Haley Radke: Thank you for sharing that. Okay. We are gonna start wrapping up this part one of our two-part conversation with Pam. Do you have any final thoughts on grievances before we say goodbye for today?
Pam Cordano: The final thought is: there's something really radical and subversive about questioning our grievances. And we can have a death grip on them and think that we'd rather die than give up a single grievance or give up an important grievance. But it's smart for us to look at the possibility that some of our grievances, or the magnitude of our grievances, or how much space they take up in our lives could actually be imprisoning us more than they're helping us stay intact.
Haley Radke: That's a big thought to end on. Okay, thank you. So we want to make sure everybody is able to grab a copy of your book. It's called 10 Foundations for a Meaningful Life, (No Matter What's Happened). So why don't you let us know where we can grab it, where we can connect with you online and…yeah!
Pam Cordano: Yeah, okay. So you can get the book on Amazon or with Balboa Press (if you don't want to go through Amazon). And just, my name is under Pam Cordano, MFT. And my website is Your Meaningful Life. Your Meaningful (dot) Life, or pamcordano.com (Same website). And my email is pcordano@comcast.net.
Haley Radke: And one thing that we didn't mention, but your book is (obviously) 10 Foundations, so you're talking about all these different foundations. And at the end of every chapter, you have all of these questions for us to answer and actual exercises. So I love that. I love that. So good.
Pam Cordano: Thanks. Thanks.
Haley Radke: Alright. Thank you so much for sharing with us.
Pam Cordano: Thank you, Haley.
Haley Radke: I hope you took away as much as I did from that conversation. I can't wait to share next week's with you. It's so good. Please make sure you're subscribed in whatever podcast app you like to listen to. My favorite is Overcast; I love Overcast. It's so easy to use. I have curated playlists for myself. If I'm going to be listening to adoptee shows, or if I'm going to listen to true crime–I have different playlists for different moods. There's more than just those two, but those are two examples I can think of.
Anyway, I love listening in Overcast. If you want to make sure you get notified every single week, that's a great way to do it. Subscribe in your podcast app, and then it'll just pop up as soon as there's a new episode.
Friday morning is when I release and it will just download automatically and it's just such a dream. So easy to use the Overcast app. If you're on Android, there's lots of free podcast apps you can download, and if you have an iPhone, you have a built-in podcast player. So, go ahead and hit subscribe and you will be notified next week when the part two of our two-part series with Pam Cordano on Hidden Dignity is ready for download.
I am just so grateful for Pam for coming on the show. I'm also grateful for my monthly supporters who faithfully just want the show to continue, and they actually do that by going to adopteeson.com/partner and signing up for Patreon (which is a monthly subscription service). So you get access to some bonuses, like a totally separate Adoptees Off Script podcast that is up every Monday, and there is an adoptees-only Facebook group. And there's some new things coming very soon, so you can watch for that.
I'm just–Ooh. Lots of cool things in the works. Anyway, I'm so thankful for my monthly supporters. If you want Adoptees On to continue to exist in this world, if you think healing episodes are important, if you wanna hear more adoptee stories and this is the place for it, then please consider joining my other monthly partners. Adopteeson.com/partner has those details for you. Thank you, my friend, for listening. Let's talk again, next Friday.
