149 [Healing Series] Mother Loss Part 1
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Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/149
Haley Radke: This show is listener supported. You can join us and help our show grow to support more adoptees by going to adopteeson.com/partner.
You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. I'm your host, Haley Radke, and this is a special episode in our Healing Series, where I interview therapists who are also adoptees themselves. So they know from personal experience what it feels like to be an adoptee.
I just want to give you a quick update before we get to today's show, and that is we are going back to weekly episodes, so make sure you're subscribed wherever you love to listen to podcasts so you don't miss any episodes. Today's show is two-parter, so next Friday we're going to have Part Two of our conversation.
We are talking about mother loss and…I just wanna prepare you. This is a very powerful conversation with two incredible women, and you are going to hear their very recent stories of losing their mothers and how that's impacted them, what it really looked like right when it was happening, and I mean, sometimes I'm–no, often, I'm shocked at the candor people share with us. And so you are stepping into some sacred space today and next week will be as well.
So I hope that you find this conversation as helpful and enlightening as I did. It's one of the most impactful I think we've had here. Without further ado, we're talking mother loss. Let's listen in. I'm so pleased to welcome to Adoptees On, Amanda Transue-Woolston and Stephanie Oyler.
Welcome, ladies.
Amanda Transue-Woolston: Thank you for having us.
Stephanie Oyler: Yes, thank you.
Haley Radke: It's my first Healing Series three-way conversation, and so it's just a pleasure to talk with you. I'm so excited. We're going to talk about some hard things today, and I'm very honored to be able to learn from you both. And let's start out–Amanda, can you share a little bit of your story and how you became a therapist and social worker and etcetera?
Amanda Transue-Woolston: Thank you so much for having me, for having us. This is exciting. I have explained this so many times and you would think that I have this “elevator speech" down… But as my identities keep evolving, I keep adding and taking away how I explain who I am.
So the short of it is: I was born in 1985 and I was surrendered to adoption as an infant. I was three days old and I was placed into foster care for a short period of time. And at about four-and-a-half months old, my adoptive parents became my new foster parents, essentially. And then I was legally adopted the following year in New Jersey. And they raised me from four-and-a-half months old.
So I… It was a closed adoption and I grew up not knowing what I wanted to do with my life. And I had a friend who wanted to be a nurse, so I'm like, I'm gonna go to nursing school. I don't know why I picked that, but I went to the same college she did, and it was deciding that I didn't want to be a nurse that really threw me for a tailspin.
And people kept saying to me, “You should be a social worker because you are adopted. And social workers really helped you make your life just so wonderful.” And even when I was not ready to talk about adoption, I was not ready to talk about any of the new nuances or loss or grief about adoption; even then, I really did not like that. I didn't like the idea that I was going to make someone else's life be like mine, because that's not nice or respectful, and my life was not perfect. And so I always just–I specifically never looked into social work, because I didn't understand all that social workers do.
I didn't know that a lot of adoption workers actually are not trained; they're not social workers. So that is a difference there. And I just went in the complete opposite direction, until I wanted to work with older adults. And then I learned more. I met social workers who weren't adoption workers, and I realized that the values of the profession aligned with my own.
And at that same time, I had my firstborn child and I wanted to learn more about my background and history–lots of family of origin stuff. When you're going through social work education, it makes you very interested. And that adoption was not something that I was going to touch as part of my education, but your social work professors make you. They make you pull in painful parts of yourself so that you deal with them, because they can't come out in your client work later.
Your work as a social worker cannot be about you. And I became very much more comfortable with it. And I went into therapy based on the feedback of my professors–that's what I would be good at. And they directed me towards a school where I could specialize in clinical social work for my master's degree and that is the whole….
I reunited when I was 25, so that was part of it. But social work was… I processed all of that, my reunion, everything throughout my social work education, which was, really, it was–A lot of people don't get that kind of support, so that was a saving grace for me.
Haley Radke: Wow, that's amazing. There's a lot of layers there.
Amanda Transue-Woolston: Yes.
Haley Radke: Wow. Thank you so much for sharing that. Stephanie, how about you?
Stephanie Oyler: My adoption story began when I was two weeks old and I was removed from my first mother and placed into foster care. At that point, it was considered respite care; I wasn't actually put into the foster care system.
Once they realized that was probably gonna be a more long-term situation, I was formally changed to foster care and was in a couple of different placements. And then, around my first birthday, I was placed with my adoptive parents (who were at that time fostering me). And then I was adopted right before my fourth birthday. So I was with them.
I actually had a lot of struggles growing up adopted. I didn't really put it all together as that really being the cause of it until I was an adult and in school for social work and really seeing how that connected to all the different struggles I had growing up. I had a lot of identity issues, so I hadn't really connected the dots of being adopted and how that played into all the struggles growing up. I really struggled with identity. I'm also a transracial adoptee, so there was a lot of layers of that piece. And my parents had the colorblind mentality, which just made it really hard to fit in, just because I stuck out so much in the family that I didn't look like.
So there was just a lot of different things. So at 17, I moved out and I went on a little soul searching mission, went to different places, and eventually I got pregnant and had my daughter. And I think that is when I really realized that I wanted to go back for social work, or I wanted to go to school for social work (not really go back). But I never really had a clear picture of what I wanted to do. But when I had my daughter, I realized just the connection that I have with her, and just realizing how much I missed out on that. I ended up going for my associate's degree and then transferring into a bachelor's program for my master’s, or for my social work degree. And then moving on into my master's level courses.
Haley Radke: Wonderful. Thank you so much. So, with that being said, you guys are experienced in adoptee things (just because we are all adoptees), but you also have this extra layer of having your master's in social work. And I know both of you do different things in Adoption Land, but what brings us to our conversation today is some very challenging things that you both have experienced: some losses.
Who wants to share first about that?
Amanda Transue-Woolston: Our losses that we are focusing on together for the purpose of this content we're building together over time, and we're gonna talk about on our own channels and is about the constant concept of mother loss. And that is something that we–it dawned on both of us at the same time from talking…
Stephanie lost her first mother recently, just before I lost my adoptive mother. Both deaths were sudden. And we were both put in the position of being the next of kin, to handling the affairs, and the end of life decisions when we (legally) really weren't. And one of the realizations that we have is that we will (because we're adopted), we will lose more than one mother more than one time throughout our lifetime.
Both of us have been a part of that adoptee movement that has focused on that compassion and empathy for children. When they are so little, they can't cognitively really understand what's going on, but they very much experience the loss of their parents. In attachment theory, the foundations of attachment theory, always focused on the mother, like the significance of that. Whoever gave birth, that relationship is foundational for the family and a person going forward.
And so in that kind of vein, and because adoptees tend to also focus on their mothers a lot as well. We were focusing specifically more on the mother relationship (not in intentional exclusion of anybody else). And so we lost our original mothers, our first mothers when we were kids, and then many of us (Stephanie and I included) lost foster mothers that some of them we may or may not remember. And then we see adoption as like this celebration and common adoption culture as, “Oh, you finally gain your forever family,” and the losses should stop, right? But they don't, because now we have to lose mothers again as adults, which isn't paid attention to at all.
Both of us do a lot of diving into research and literature, and it's not really (except anecdotally), it's not really spoken about at all. What happens when I reunite with my first mother and she dies? Or, What happens with–now I have to lose my adoptive mother when she dies? The losses continue to accumulate.
And developmentally, there's not a lot of theory about what happens to people when they have to lose a mother multiple times and multiple times in that way. It's not–it's just not part of our normative trajectory when we talk about adult development. And so that is… Since both of us had that experience recently and not being able to find much about it, but having a lot to say about it…
That is one of our really strong topics of interest right now and we're also finding that a lot of people are like, “Yeah, tell me! What is it? I wanna hear it, cuz I can't find it either. And I also just lost my mom.” So…
Haley Radke: Let me just say how sorry I am for your losses and...I don't know. I think there's that extra layer, right? When it's unexpected and in a tragic circumstance. And then you mentioned, Amanda, that you guys were both called upon for some responsibilities that you weren't necessarily expecting. Stephanie, do you wanna touch on that?
What were you asked to do when your first mother passed that maybe you weren't necessarily expected or expecting to be called on to do?
Stephanie Oyler: A little backstory. I reunited with my first mother when I was 18, but it wasn't really physically; it wasn't in person. It was more like phone calls, and letters, and things like that. I'd say the last five or six years, I really started visiting her more.
She didn't have a family. She lived in a group home setting. She had treatment teams and case managers, and she had actually aged out of the child welfare system herself. So she really had no family. And so when I finished school, I really wanted to provide her with a family and be there in a way that she never really had. So I started going to her treatment team meetings and I started visiting her regularly.
My children met her. My husband met her. We did our best to include her in just everything that we were doing. And so, I think at that time I was in constant communication with her peer support specialist. And I was at work one day, and I got a frantic call from her saying that, “You need to come to the hospital. Somebody has to sign paperwork and there's nobody to sign,” (because the agency and her case manager could not sign it). There was nobody to sign a power of attorney type thing.
I rushed out; I went to the hospital. And I had signed the paperwork, and then I was put into this position of, now I'm dealing with the doctors and I'm talking with them. And I'm all of a sudden making all of these decisions that I would've never thought in a million years I would be doing. Because I mean, I knew her, but I didn't know her history. I didn't know her medical background. So I–there was a lot of imposter syndrome. When I'm speaking to the doctors, I felt, Am I allowed to do this? It was a lot of feelings at the time, but I got put into the role of just making all of those decisions.
And then, eventually, I had to make the decision of whether to remove the life support, because she was not ever going to come out of what she was in (which I did). And then I was put into the position of, Okay, now you are in charge of all of the arrangements and all this stuff afterwards (which once again, I didn't even think about, because I'd never been in this position to even understand). So then, I started doing all of that stuff and it just was overwhelming. There was really no help and I didn't have support. So that's just the gist of where I came into play with that.
Haley Radke: That does sound overwhelming. Can you just (I don't know if you're comfortable sharing this), but how were you feeling during that time?
Were you like, actually in the moment experiencing things? Or were you in this state of shock and just going, Okay, I think I need to do this next. I think I…, more like just going through the motions?
Stephanie Oyler: Yeah, I think I was in shock. I tend to get into this professional mode. And I think sometimes I did that a lot with my first mother, just because it was easier to keep myself separated at times (if I went into professional), which is why I really wanted to be on her treatment team. And I really wanted to help in that sense.
So when I got the call, I really did–I was shocked. I was like–They basically told me she was gonna die if I did not come to the hospital at that exact moment. So I was like, Okay, time to get it down. I'm rushing from work. I go to the hospital and I sign the paperwork and yeah, I just–I think it was like just going through the motions at that point.
I didn't even realize what I was doing. I think when she passed away, that was the point where I was like, I just…The last few weeks were just so rapid and chaotic that at that point I was just like, inundated with all the emotion. Just with making the decision and then being left there to sit with it (if that makes sense).
Haley Radke: And your loss, too, of your mother, Amanda, was unexpected in a different way and very sudden. Do you mind sharing about that and also some of the things that were just going through your head when that was all happening? Because I think we might have this idea like, “Well, if we can sort of mentally prepare ourselves for at some point in the future, we'll sort of have this hat on, then we'll be ready for whatever comes what–no matter how shocking it is.” I don't know if that's even possible.
Amanda Transue-Woolston: Definitely not. I don't think it's possible, at least not for me. And I do feel–I have always felt prepared for death in a general sense of: I've worked in a nursing home that had palliative care. I worked in hospice as a social worker. I am very supportive of the death positivity movement and have consumed a lot of that literature and material, just because I find it interesting having to also support people through death as a therapist.
And so I do think that I'm more prepared than most people, but not as prepared as I thought that I was. And of course the issue with my mom really blew that wide open. I was teaching. I teach college classes, and that includes high school kids that are eligible for college classes, as well as main campus classes. So I bring psychology and sociology classes to high schools because not all the kids have licenses. This is a program that my college really wants to expand. So they were there that day taking my picture for a local magazine. I didn't know that they were coming and they walk in… (fortunately, I brushed my hair pretty good that day).
They're like, “Okay, can you erase Stanley Milgram off the dry erase board and put something more pleasant?” We're setting all this up and my phone is ringing and it's on mute or whatever. It's on vibrate, but it's still out of control (you know, when your phone's on vibrate and you don't wanna receive calls, then the vibration might as well be as loud as the ring). So my phone was going nonstop and I'm like a p– cuz my director's there with the photographer with the reporter. All of the students like…, and I'm just like, “My phone does not normally ring while I'm teaching. I am so sorry.” So I'm like, “I turned my phone off.” I'm so angry and just trying to keep my job. So after that, I forgot that my phone was off and I'm driving to main campus to teach another psychology class there. And I had turned it back on and I had all these missed calls and I'm like, Oh my gosh, what student loan thing didn't I pay? (Cuz that’s usually what it is).
Or, What did my child do at school, anyway? But I noticed that the Caller ID said Florida, and I remembered that my parents were on vacation in Florida (or they were heading down there). And I'm like, I bet you they’ve arrived there. I guess I should... And then I realized (cuz I didn't realize before), that I had a voicemail and so on this voicemail is a chap— there's several messages from a chaplain saying, “Amanda, your parents have been involved in a very serious accident. We need you to call immediately. Please call us right away.” And there were multiple messages to that effect.
So I called. I believe the chaplain's name was Scott, and I reached him and he said something… I don't even know exactly what it was, and it may have just been–he may have very well said, “We have a concern about your mom, but your dad seems to be okay.” Like he may have said that, but whatever it is he did say, I remember that my mind was: Both of my parents are dead. That is what I heard. And so I just–I was shocked having to lose both of my parents at the same time.
And then the chaplain said, “ Let me see if your dad's awake.” And I was like, Oh, okay. All right. There's hope. Wait, what? My dad didn't want to talk to me. And he probably had a concussion (I realize now), but immediately, I'm like, I'm being rejected. That was really hard for me. And I also know that my dad would probably do something like that.
I'm telling myself this in this moment: He would do something like that because he wants me to focus on my mom. He doesn't wanna consume any time or energy that could be spent on her, because he's always okay. And so these are the things that I'm telling myself. I'm trying to get information from the chaplain about my mom and he said, “She's not here. She went to another hospital.” And when he told me the name (and I've also worked in hospital systems and emergency rooms)--
When he told me the name of the hospital, I was very concerned, because it was not an advanced trauma level hospital. And so if someone's being taken there, they either have very little chance (and they're just going there to be stabilized, potentially because it's the closest), or they're going there because they have a few scratches. It's either one or the other. And so the thoughts that things are not okay continued. So I did get a hold of– That hospital had not called me and I got a hold of them.
And they put me on the phone with a surgeon and he said that they had operated on her. “She's in surgery right now,” and he's just telling me every gruesome detail that you could imagine. Like, he was describing that they think she hit her head (which could be the main problem), but there's internal bleeding that they need to stabilize. And then he was just describing her limb injuries (that even if they stabilized her brain, even if they stabilized the internal bleeding, she's gonna have to deal with horrible injuries to all of her limbs). And I'm just…
And I'm like, He's explaining it in this way to me for a reason, because the feeling that I got from it was that her dying might be a saving grace (in a way), because otherwise she's gonna suffer for the rest of her life, (which is what I picked up it that he might be trying to communicate to me in a very weird, clinical, “doctorly” way). So they didn't ask me to consent to anything at all, and technically my dad is the next kin (whether or not you would consider him incapacitated or not, I don't know). But he basically said, “Just don't expect her to make it.” And that was the end of that.
So I said, “Okay, thank you for your time. Please go back in the operating room and save her.” So now I'm like– I'm driving home. I told my students, “I gotta go.” They're like, “Are you okay?” I'm like, “No.” (But I am laughing cuz I'm uncomfortable). ”But it is. I've gotta go do something. So you guys are good. Everybody gets an A! I gotta go. Don't worry.” Like the students always panic if they're gonna, if I cancel class, if they have–if they get marked down for anything. And I'm like, “Nope, you're good.” So I go home. I'm feeling horrible for my students. And my husband got me the next, very next flight out of Baltimore to go down.
The doctor had told me, “Just go to your dad, cuz there's no hope here.” Cuz they were in, they were like three hours apart, the hospitals. And so I decided to go to my dad and as I was packing up, I got a call from the hospital, telling me that they are now transferring my mom. I was like, “I was told my mom was gonna die.” And the registrar (who really just wants consent to transfer and the insurance information) is like, “Apparently, she's a fighter!”
I'm like, so awkward. It's just so awkward. I'm like, “Yes she is. Okay. So she's being transferred to this hospital. Okay.” So, that hospital was also really far away from my dad. So I consented to that. They were gonna airlift her; I gave them all the information that I could, and then I got on the plane. I paid for the service on the plane where you can text from the plane, and so I'm texting various relatives. I'm letting my dad's job know, I'm letting people…(I don't know why, like I just felt the need to do something, to be productive on this airplane).
And that was a really awkward experience that we could also probably talk about, like at some point: how people react when you tell them bad news like this. I felt from some people that I was almost…They couldn't accept that I was telling them that my mom was probably gonna die and my dad almost died.
And so they almost interrogated me (like I didn't know what I was talking about), and that happened multiple times: “No, no, no. What do you mean that she's gonna die? Who told you that?” And I'm just like, “No, what I need from you right now–I need to let you know not to call either of them. And my dad's not gonna be at work on Monday or Tuesday.” So, anyway, I don't know if that happened to Stephanie or not, but anyway, that's just a very weird part of being the person who has to tell.
Texting back and forth with my aunts and uncles who were in Florida, because they live there, and my aunt says, “Your cousin's picking you up from the airport.” And that was unexpected, because I was going to– Now, I was gonna go to my mom and I was Ubering there, so I didn't understand that. And so the thought in my head was, My mom died, because otherwise, my cousin would be at the hospital with my mom. Like, Why is she…?
And my aunt– I texted back and I said, “She's dead, isn't she?” And my aunt's like, “I'm not texting you back about this.” Like just…, and I'm like, “Okay.” So I texted my cousin, I'm like, “She died, didn't she?” I am not the type of person that..., I don't like surprises. I don't wanna wait an hour to find out.
And my cousin was like, “We can talk about things when you get here.” Neither one of them wanted to be in a place to give news like that through a text. And I understand that, but that's just not what I needed, because what ended up happening was I got off the plane and the police department called me.
And on the other end of the phone, was a sobbing police officer. And he said, “I am so sorry. My mom also just died in a car accident. I'm an Iraq veteran and I've seen a lot of terrible things in my life. And this brought me right back to being in that desperation, and wanting to save somebody that you care about (or someone else cares about). I did CPR on her, and I tried so hard, and I'm so sorry.” And he's crying, so now I knew she died. Like she was pronounced–What happened was, she was pronounced dead at the scene and they brought her back at the hospital. So he didn't know that they had brought her back; he just thought that she, they had…
She had coded at the scene. I don't wanna say they pronounced her, but she was pulseless at the scene, and he did not think– he already had thought that I already knew. And I didn't say… I just thanked him. I was there for him. I listened to him. I comforted him. I told him I was sorry for his mother's loss, but now I knew, and it was a police officer that told me. It wasn't my own family.
So then I did see my cousin at the airport, who picked me up, and she did. And the first thing she said to me was, “I didn't wanna text you that.” I'm like, “Yeah, I already texted myself that in my mind, so too late. But I get it.” So they took me to see my dad, cuz I didn't wanna see my mom. I didn't. She was already gone; I didn't want to. I've had OCD my whole life and a lot of that is very imagery in my mind, and I don't want that image stuck in my head repeatedly. So I opted not to go see her. But I had to be the one that told my dad, because he was not being kept updated at all.
So that was awful having to tell him. And as we entered, we approached the room (my cousin and I). And I said, “My dad, I don't think he knows how to do ‘sad.’ He knows how to do ‘angry.’ So when I tell him he may yell and kick me out, and you have to be okay with that. You can't defend me, cuz it's not about me. It'll be fine.” But he didn't; he cried. And that's the fourth time I've ever seen my dad cry in my whole life. So that's the whole kind of the tale of losing my mom.
Haley Radke: Thank you for sharing that. Stephanie, did you have any similar experiences? I know that you said your first mother didn't really have connections, which is why you ended up doing some of those decision making things at the end.
What about telling friends or family of yours that you were going through this? Did you share it with anyone? Did you keep it private? What was that like for you?
Stephanie Oyler: In the beginning, I kept it private from friends. I did tell my adoptive mother when she was in the hospital and sick, just because I have a younger sister, who was also adopted with me. She was adopted after I was adopted, but we have the same mother.
We handle adoption differently. She was not really involved and did not have a relationship with my mom, but I still wanted to keep her updated on what was happening. So in that sense, yes, I did tell them. But when my mom passed away, that was like a very different level of interaction with people, because nobody really knew how to address, how to even speak to me. “Are you sad? I mean, she didn't raise you.” And that was really like the overall–and people even asked me, they were like, “How should I react?” Some, I think a couple of people actually asked that.
And it was really hard because I didn't feel like I got the recognition that I feel like I should have gotten with it because people just didn't– In their mind, they were like, She wasn't really your mom, she didn't raise you, so it's probably not as bad.
And I got that from my adoptive family, as well, to an extent. And there was a lot of emotions, and probably a lot of things that were said that really hurt me. And I just had to step back from a couple of people, just because they weren't willing to see that this was very hurtful.
And I had a relationship with my mom for 12 years and was very interactive with her. I mean, my kids were at the hospital with me when I had to make the decision. So it was really difficult and I didn't get–I didn't really get any condolences that you would think. So...
Haley Radke: I'm sorry that you went through that. And we've actually talked about grief before on the Healing Series, and we've really dug into disenfranchised grief, which is really what Stephanie's kind of explaining to us. It's like, you're not getting the casseroles after a funeral. You're not–and people are just saying, “Oh, really?” That’s so–Ugh. Yikes.
And Amanda, you were saying that you were sort of having to explain things to people? You were getting interrogated. It's very interesting, like the different reactions. Thank you so much for sharing your experiences with those really (oh my goodness!) life-altering is not really an overstatement. I think that's really accurate in this circumstance.
So thank you so much for sharing those things deeply personal and I hope it'll really be helpful for our listeners. I really want to continue this conversation, because you guys are also trained therapists and so you have another whole lens to look at your experiences through. So we're gonna come back and do that next week. But for now, why don't you share where we can connect with you online. And Stephanie, why don't you share first.
Stephanie Oyler: I just launched my business, Adoptee LIT llc.com. It is a consulting business for adoptive parents, mentoring for adoptees, and then it's gonna have an education piece with trainings, and webinars, and stuff like that.
You can find me there. I also have a blog (which if you go on my main website, there's a link to that as well).
Haley Radke: Perfect, and I think you've got links for social media as well on adopteelitllc.com. And Amanda, how about you?
Amanda Transue-Woolston: I am on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. (I’m trying to think of where else…) So most of my handles at most social media places is @AmandaTDA (for Declassified Adoptee), I think except for my Facebook page (which is just The Declassified Adoptee). But all of my social media is linked at my website. So I have amandawoolston.com and also declassifiedadoptee.com.
Haley Radke: Perfect. Thank you so much. I appreciate you.
Amanda Transue-Woolston: Thank you for having us.
Stephanie Oyler: Thank you.
Amanda Transue-Woolston: This is great. Thank you so much for starting. This is the start of our journey talking about mother loss. So you are the first–we're gonna take a lot of the things that we uncovered today through your questions to help develop the rest of what we want to teach people about these experiences. So thank you so much.
Stephanie Oyler: Yeah. Thank you.
Haley Radke: Okay. So I think that was very powerful. I'm so grateful to Amanda and Stephanie for sharing their stories with us, and next week we look at mother loss with their therapist lenses on and we learn some lessons from them–things that they have taken away during their grieving process, things they feel that the adoptee community really needs to be aware of, and it's just all super duper important.
I shared off-mic with Amanda, the impact that her work has had on me over the last number of years. You guys probably already know Amanda's work over at The Declassified Adoptee and (of course) she started the well, well-beloved Lost Daughters’ website. So those are some resources that you definitely should be checking out.
And I'm so excited for Stephanie with her new endeavors. Make sure you go and give her a follow as well links to all of their contact info will be over in the show notes.
I'm just so glad to be back. Can't wait to start podcasting weekly again. It is my joy to be able to bring you this content, without which I wouldn't be able to do this, without my monthly Patreon supporters. So thank you so much.
If you have signed up, adopteeson.com/partner has details of how you can access the other weekly show I do: Adoptees Off Script and we are talking a lot about adoptee-written books over there. We are also doing some semi-regular Zoom calls with members of the Patreon community and there's also a secret Facebook group.
Basically, there's a lot of stuff over there (a lot of content). And it's been really beautiful to see how people have been supporting each other, even behind the scenes, connecting through direct messages. And they'll find each other in the Facebook group and say, “Oh, I have a situation like that.” And then they take their friendship off to the DMs. So you can have personal conversations with someone else who's experienced what you're going through.
Anyway, I am so grateful for you. Thank you. I wouldn't be able to do the show without you. Adopteeson.com/partner has the details, if you are wanting to sign up for that.
And another amazing way to support the show (totally for free), is to just share this episode with a friend. Sometimes people don't know how to listen to podcasts, but you do, because you're listening right now. So you could share this with a friend that you know is adopted and maybe has lost someone close to them.
And this–they might find this conversation inspiring and hopeful, knowing that they're not alone. And yeah! Thank you for the way you share the show. I appreciate you. Thanks so much for chatting with me. It's been so long, I forget what my sign off is. How about this? Let's talk again next Friday.
