71 [Healing Series] Romantic Relationships
/Transcript
Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/71
Haley Radke: This show is listener supported. You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. I'm your host, Haley Radke, and this is a special episode in our healing series where I interview therapists who are also adoptees themselves so they know from personal experience what it feels like to be an adoptee.
Today we are going to tackle intimate partner relationships. Let's listen in.
I'm so pleased to welcome back to Adoptees On, Marta [formerly Drachenberg]. Welcome, Marta.
Marta Isabella Sierra: Hi, Haley.
Haley Radke: Marta is a fellow adoptee and licensed mental health counselor, who is trained in internal family systems, a model she believes to be especially powerful in helping adoptees learn to love and welcome all their internal parts.
So Marta has taught us before about internal family systems, but today I asked her back, because we're gonna talk about just the challenges of being adopted. And being in a romantic relationship with someone and all the fun things our partners get to deal with with us. Is that right, Marta?
Marta Isabella Sierra: That's correct. It is a rollercoaster ride to sign up to be with one of us, for sure.
Haley Radke: Yes, yes. It is no secret that my husband deals with a lot, but, I mean, why is that? Why is it so tough to be with someone who's adopted? What is it about adoptees that can make it a challenge, for just being in relationship?
Marta Isabella Sierra: So, I think one of the most damaging pieces of adoption trauma and that initial severing of that relationship with our first mothers, is that it steals from us any innate sense of trust. If you are with your biological mom and you create that secure attachment in early childhood, you have an innate sense of trust in yourself, in other people, in the world. You have a sense of safety.
And that's something that was taken from us, that was broken very, very early. And so to the point where we sometimes don't even have a concept of what trust is, and almost don't believe that it's a real thing. And this most pervasively affects relationships.
But before I say more about that, I wanted to give a brief example of the difference between an adopted and a non-adopted person, regarding this sense of innate trust. I have a close friend, a dear friend, who went through a pretty brutal divorce this past year, and she was so, so crushed. And part of it was that she had never even thought about the idea that they wouldn't be together forever. It had never occurred to her.
She took all of it at face value and trusted in it so deeply, and it was such a loss for her and such a grieving of, "Oh, sometimes things fall apart, right?" Or sometimes, you trust someone and maybe they weren't worthy of your trust, and that's painful. And there were points in my loving and supporting of her that were challenging for me, because I can't even conceive of that level of innate trust.
My whole life I am bracing for things to fall apart, for things to go badly, for people to die, for people to leave. And so the idea that she was just walking around the world, living her marriage with this level of trust, and for her… To watch her lose that, was so interesting to me and kept bringing me back to, Wow, I have no idea what that would be like to trust something so innately.
So personally and professionally, I feel like I see adoptees struggle so much with all of their relationships (family and friendship included), but intimate relationships are different, because intimacy/romantic relationships are our most vulnerable space. It's the most vulnerable space that we exist in as humans.
It's the closest we let people get, and in that it's the most vulnerable. It's where we work out our family of origin issues, which as an adoptee is so, so complicated, and there's also… Because of all the fear that we're carrying in our systems, there can often be this really strong desire, deeply rooted desire, even, for control.
And I'm gonna quote C.S. Lewis really quickly, who said, "To love at all is to be vulnerable." And we're asked in romantic relationships to be the most vulnerable that we are in our lives, and when vulnerability as an adopted person is linked to feeling unsafe, that gets really sticky and really complicated.
Haley Radke: I definitely have often struggled in relationship. And yet, I've been married for, oh dear, Nick does listen to the show. So he's gonna–12 years. No, it's more than that. No, it's more than that. It's going to be 14 years this year. But I've said before, he's this really stable force in my life. And I'm the one that's up and down, and up and down. And I feel like I bring the challenges to the relationship.
Marta Isabella Sierra: Yes. And that can be a really hard feeling. Feeling… You know, the clinical term for that in a couple's therapy way would say that one person in the couple feels like the "identified patient," like the one that's got all the problems. But it's also of high value, actually, as an adopted person to find someone who is securely attached, to partner up with, which leads me right into talking about attachment styles a little bit.
So, I wanted to recommend a book called Attached, that explores specifically how attachment styles affect adult romantic relationships. And it's really a great book. You can do a self-assessment, you can do an assessment of your partner (if you have a partner currently), and really learn about the different attachment styles.
And the most important thing that the book is bringing forward, from the research that they did, is the idea that our attachment styles are fluid (which isn't how we always thought about attachment styles in the psychology world). At one point, we thought of them as really defined in infancy and childhood, and then that's your attachment style.
But what we're learning is they're actually much more fluid than that. So, the good news of that is that if you aren't partnered yet (as an adopted person) and you seek out someone who's “securely attached,” they can pull you into “securely attached.” You can develop that together. The con of it is, if you're an adopted person and you're super dysregulated and you find a secure person, you can also pull them out of secure attachment and bring them into your world.
Haley Radke: Don't tell them that. I'm looking around…Nick's upstairs. It's fine.
Marta Isabella Sierra: So, I appreciate your vulnerability in speaking to that, Haley, that you feel like the one that has all the ups and downs. But the upside of that is, it's like slinging pudding at a wall and it just falls down, instead of someone catching it and throwing it back to you. Because securely attached people, when we're having our dysregulation are just like, “Hey, there's no fire. What's going on? Everything's fine.”
Like you said, he's this stable force in your life, and so they can reflect that back and it helps us see the places where, Oh, what I'm feeling isn't actually happening in this moment. Or, Something else is coming up from me. I'm not present moment right now.
And there are those of us (myself included), who read this book and learned these things when they already have fallen in love with someone who has the opposite attachment style for them. And they talk about that in the book as well, which is really helpful. I happen to already have fallen deeply in love with someone with an opposite attachment style and someone with their own trauma history as well (that is very different from my trauma history), which provides a whole other myriad of challenges that we get to navigate. Which sometimes is really helpful, and sometimes we really speak the same language, and sometimes we just trigger each other in all of these really terrible ways, and have to work through that.
But that's also not impossible. And so even two people with opposite attachment styles, even if they're not secure, can move towards “secure” together. And it's a lot of work, but I think it's worth it.
Haley Radke: So you mentioned this book Attached, and you're talking about different attachment styles. Can you just give us Cliff’s notes of what that means?
Marta Isabella Sierra: It means how we are in relationship; that's the simplest way that I can put it. A general way of what comes out of us, what parts of us show up when we're in relationship, and again, especially in this intimate, romantic space that can be so vulnerable.
Haley Radke: And can you give an example of a couple different attachment styles?
Marta Isabella Sierra: I do not have the book in front of me, but I believe it's “anxious,” “avoidant.” There's a mixture of those that's a very small percentage of people that are “anxious-avoidant,” and then “secure.” There's some really beautiful examples of how this plays out in attachment styles in this new show that's on HBO–I don't know if anyone's been watching.
It's called Here and Now, so (spoiler alert), I'm gonna talk about a couple of different scenes with one of the characters. It features a family structure of two white adoptive parents, three adult adopted children (one from Liberia, one from Vietnam, one from Colombia), and they also have a biological child as well (a teenage girl).
So, I'm gonna be talking a little bit about Ramon's character, who is the adult child that's adopted from Colombia. And we watch his relationship in the first season with Henry. And there's these two specific moments that I think they did such a beautiful job of really showing what can come up for us: a) that he gets so close, so fast. And that's really common, I think with adoptees. We have really strong feelings, and we're craving that love so deeply that we can run really fiercely towards someone. And you see that side, and then you also see the other side, which is this urge to run, and this urge to end things really quickly, really unilaterally.
So, the first kind of trigger is: he wakes up in the middle of the night one night, and Henry's not there. You really see how he comes undone. Like, Where did he go? And you can see how hard that is for him, and his impulse is to end the relationship. And they work through it with a conversation, but you could see that it could have ended there, had Henry not fought a little bit and said, “No, I want you to know what really happened, and why I did that, and why I'm sorry.” And they move through it. But there's already one point, right? Where they could have gone a different way.
And then there's a later piece where Henry had potentially been unfaithful. And without getting the actual story, without asking any questions, Ramon goes to the worst-case scenario (like we often do, like we're hardwired to sometimes), and just assumes the worst and ends the relationship, unilaterally. And I think there was a lot lost there. And that's getting into my opinion of what I saw these two characters sharing, but I think they did have a shared history of trauma. I think there was a lot of love there, and it was lost in a really fear-based way. So, both of those examples are examples of Ramon being incapable of trusting, of innately trusting. He goes to the worst-case scenario; he goes to the fear response.
And so that's again, that piece where, if we're unable to trust, is going to constantly come up in our relationships, and potentially do a lot of damage to our partners and to us. And so that needs a lot of attention from us, and us doing our work so that our partners aren't being hurt, and also so we can build–even to build something.
And so, you asked me in the last episode, “How did IFS change my life?” I waited for this episode to speak to it, but I wouldn't have the partner that I have today if I hadn't found IFS. I started my training right when we were just starting up, and the dysregulation in the beginning of something new, I think, is really intense for us.
That first year was very intense for me, navigating my feelings and not blowing it up. I have this part that gets so afraid of the realness of it and would blow it up. And when I was younger, certainly, blew up many a connection out of fear. And there was a lot of work to do with my parts in that first year about: it's okay, a lot of comforting, a lot of overwhelm, and that work continues now. Four-and-a-half years later, I'm still doing a lot of work to make, to try to make sure (and I fail epically all the time), that this doesn't affect our relationship.
And so, in the beginning, we used to get in this conflict, that I would say, “I trust you,” and he would say, “You don't trust me.” And we would go round and round with this, really often. And as I was starting to do my first adoption readings about adoption trauma, was right around that same time that we had been starting to date. And so I started learning about this, and really learning about this broken sense of trust, especially from primal wound.
And I was able to sit with him–I still remember sitting on the porch with him. And I was able to say one day, “You know, I think that you're right. I think that I don't trust you. I think that what I mean when I say that is, ‘I want to trust you, and I trust you more than any man I've ever been with.’ But you're right. A lot of me, a lot of parts of me don't trust you at all.”
And that was so validating for him to hear. I just remember his relief and him thanking me for speaking to what his parts already knew was true, which was that I did not trust him. And that's okay; it was a little too soon. And so, the other piece is that trust is a big spectrum. It's not black and white. We don't trust or we don't trust. It's a big spectrum, and I continue to try to move towards that trust. But again, four-and-a-half years in, I still struggle with it today and up through a week ago, moving through a conflict, and him saying, “When have I not been here for you? Since we've been together? When have I not been here?” And I have to ask all of my parts to step back and calm down and acknowledge: Never. I don't have any reason that's real. I just have my traumatized parts that are reacting out of fear.
Haley Radke: One thing I remember I did when I was dating my husband (many years ago), was I would really push him away, big time. And what part of that has to do with trust? Like, I can't really–I don't have the words for it. Can you talk about that a little bit?
Marta Isabella Sierra: Yes. So a polarity that exists inside of everybody, when it comes to relationship, is: we have parts that want to run towards the other person, and we have parts that want to run away from the other person. I believe, in adopted people, those parts get very extreme. So again, we have those behaviors of running towards someone, making up a whole kind of story, and making it more intense, and rushing it and all of that, right? Like, I have to get so close to you that you're my skin. That impulse is so deep.
And then we also have, Oh, but now we are this close, and now I feel really unsafe, and I need to get the F out of here immediately! And there's the running. And so there's these opposing energies that I think (again) get really extreme with us: the parts that want to run towards, and the parts that want to run away, which can feel… Again, that rollercoaster can feel very upsetting to the other person, if they don't understand what's happening.
Haley Radke: Yeah, yeah, for sure. We can see all of these things, I think, hearing you explain this. Probably a lot of us are like, Oh my gosh, listen, I've been sitting here thinking you have cameras in my house. So we're all kinda feeling that way. But then, what are our next steps? If we see it, then how do we work on building that trust, and how do we work on saying to our partner, “Okay, I am working on this. Can you work on this with me?” And those kind of things? How do we navigate that?
Marta Isabella Sierra: Yeah. So, again, what comes up in our intimate relationships is a lot of family of origin stuff, which we have two families of origin (really), that we're working with. Two loads of crap that we're trying to get…
Haley Radke: Twice the fun.
Marta Isabella Sierra: Twice the fun. So, there's–it's honoring that, right? That a lot of what's coming up for us is maybe about our adoptive parents, maybe about our birth parents, but that (generally) it's not about that.
When I do couples work, the first thing I say is, “90% of what's coming up between the two of you isn't about the other person. You're hitting wounds, and they're coming up, but they're not–you didn't create them together. They were already there, and you're hitting upon them.” So, I would say step one as an adopted person, is a huge amount of curiosity about what's happening for you and what your feelings are and what's going on in your body, in your heart, in your mind. And really attuning to that so that you can recognize when you're having a really intense emotion and start to be able to recognize when it might be disproportionate to what just happened.
And that's my first signal, personally, is Oh, I'm having a really big reaction to this. I need to slow down. I need to see what's happening. I need to listen. One way that I do that, especially if I'm super escalated, I generally journal on my phone and not in my journal. And it's interesting to go back and read and I can see, “What's about my adoptive parents?” “What's about my birth mom?” And in the journaling, I think I'm writing to my partner, but I read it later and I'm like, Oh, I see who that was about.
It's almost never about him. And so, it's starting to recognize that narrative: “How does that show up for you?” And these are a few triggers, abandonment kind of narratives that I've noticed in myself that maybe your listeners will relate to and hear for themselves.
But if I hear any of these statements inside of myself, I know that it's adoption trauma stuff that's coming up for me. Why aren't you here? Where are you? How could you leave? So short and simple, right? But all of those link directly to my traumatized infant part, and I'm not in the present moment if I'm thinking those things.
If I'm feeling those things, I'm not in the present moment, and I have to ground myself before I can move forward. And so the practical piece of that is, when I notice that coming up and I notice where that lives in my body. I know that a lot for me is right under my rib cage, right in my diaphragm, that a lot of my fear lives there.
So I might place my hand there, and just take a really deep breath and just say, “We're okay. Everything's okay. I'm right here.” And depending on how much I know about what part of me is showing up, I might reassure it in different ways. “We're safe now,” or I might remind that part that my partner is a safe person. “You know that Tyson loves you. Everything's okay. You're in a safe space.”
I might remind that part that my birth mom loves her (which is a gift of my reunion), which I didn't have before to say to her. But now I can say, “She loves you, and you'll see her again. It's gonna be okay.” So that part's really specific, individually, how you calm down the parts of you that got stirred up in the moment. But recognizing is definitely the first step, so that I'm not running out and saying out loud, “How dare you leave? How could you do this to me? Again?” And then we're in a whole thing, right? And now I'm in a one to seven day fight that I don't know what's gonna be said, and what I can't take back.
Haley Radke: So that's if we're already in a relationship.
Marta Isabella Sierra: Yes.
Haley Radke: And I know several adoptees personally, who kinda go in and out of different relationships and you just sorta see them bouncing from one person to the next. And to me, I look at that from the outside and I think, This is a little bit dysfunctional. How does someone like that, you know, look at themselves and say, “Okay, what am I gonna do next? Do I want a partnership that's gonna last for a while?” I mean, what do you say to someone who's experienced that?
Marta Isabella Sierra: Well, you know, part of me wants to say, partnership isn't for everybody. It's okay if you don't want a partner, too.
Haley Radke: Fair enough. Yes, yes.
Marta Isabella Sierra: But yes, if you want to build a healthy partnership, it's essential that you're doing your own work (ideally with a therapist). I strongly recommend that any adopted person–once you're in a relationship, that you think this might really be something (even if you think, Maybe just for a year, but this might be something); get yourself in couples therapy as soon as possible. People use couples therapy as a Hail Mary at the end, and typically, couples seek help six to seven years past when they needed it.
So part of it is honoring that this is hard for us. This is an area that is difficult for us and we need a little help. And finding a partner that's okay doing that work with us, that's also interested in growth and building healthier relationship and just really honoring.... Again, it's not a place that we're broken, it's not something we can't have, that's just for the other people, but it's a place where that's very challenging for us, and we need a lot of help.
You know, I know for my partner and myself, we didn't have healthy examples growing up. And so we're trying to build something that we haven't even seen, and so we need help with that, and that's understandable. And then to the way other side, I would say for anyone that's single and just dating around, and wants to live that casual life and isn't really ready for something serious: if that doesn't feel safe, don't do it. Definitely don't do it if it doesn't feel safe.
But even in casual encounters, as adopted people, we can get very deeply wounded. And so, it's being careful about our hearts, and our safety, and making sure that anyone we spend time with (even if that's somebody for two hours, that we're gonna be intimate with), that it's safe and that we're clear with our parts about what's happening.
If we're just seeking physical comfort, again, that's totally fine, and we have deep needs for that (generally, as adoptees). But are we being clear with our parts that this isn't our forever person, and we might be leaving them really soon? Are we being clear about our own intention with ourselves, going into it? Or are we gonna let ourselves run wild after, and really get hurt all the time?
Haley Radke: Thank you. Thank you. I think those are all really great things to think about and it's a lot of self-reflection. This whole time, I'm like, Man, you're hitting a little close to home for me, here. Thank you. Thanks for that. It's good. It's good.
Marta Isabella Sierra: It's a very difficult thing to talk about. You asked me to think about examples to share, and it's vulnerable. I have shaming parts about how much I'm still doing my work in this most vulnerable area. I'm very much still doing my work, and it's very much still affecting my partner, and I wish that it wasn't. I have parts that are really angry that it still affects him day-to-day, and that's what's happening.
So, what do we do? We ask for help. And we try to do our work, and it goes as fast as it goes. But if we can say to our partners, “Part of me felt this…,” or even in the repair. Sometimes we can't resolve it in the moment, right? We have to come back later and say, “I think that part of me that got really angry that you left and went to go hang out with your friends, really was feeling that separation with my birth mom. I think that's why I was sobbing. I'm sorry that I put that on you.” That's so different than anything else than any other way we might deal with that.
Haley Radke: But that really goes back to just what you said, a moment ago, about going to couple’s therapy, and how we leave it till this is like seven or eight years late. You know, doing those repairs as you go is so important.
Marta Isabella Sierra: Yes. And I can't tell you how many people (even therapist friends that I have) have had reactions. I casually talk about our couple’s therapy often, and people say, “What's wrong?” “Nothing. Things are good. That's–I want them to stay good, and we're building a foundation, so it's important that we have help.”
Haley Radke: Yeah, I am a big believer in therapy (obviously). I mean, I think it's so amazing to be able to go into a session with Nick and my psychologist (that's who I see). She is just able to help us hear each other, you know? And sorta uncover some stuff, and really have a good conversation about what it's really about. And sometimes in, whatever–in the heat of the moment, you just aren't able to do that. So I love that you just said, coming back later to just do that repair is so good.
Awesome. Thank you so much, Marta. Is there anything that we didn't cover yet that you really want to get to?
Marta Isabella Sierra: I don't think so. That's it. I didn't think I'd get through everything that I wanted to say, but I did.
Haley Radke: Oh, and this was really good. And I did; I felt so uncomfortable talking about this. I don't know why. I had that–Season four, we're talking all about relationships (as we're recording this). And I did this bonus preview episode with my husband Nick, and he relayed all of these things to me about how my reunion with my dad affected him.
And that whole time he was talking, I was like, Oh my gosh. I was so selfish. And I just, I didn't see it till later, and then just reliving that, it brought so much stuff up. And this conversation too, I'm like, Whew! So, you know what? We need to go there. We can't hide these things. This is really what's happening for me, for you, for people that are listening. It's really important to talk about. Thank you.
Marta Isabella Sierra: Yeah, you're welcome.
Haley Radke: Marta, where can we connect with you online?
Marta Isabella Sierra: There will be links in the show notes to my personal email. If you just wanna talk to me, that's totally fine, I'm open to that. And also my professional website as well, where my practice information is. And yeah, feel free.
Haley Radke: Wonderful. Thank you so much.
I am so thankful for each one of you that tells me how much the show has changed your life, and I can't believe it. I still get these emails daily, or messages on Instagram, or Twitter, or Facebook. And it means so much to me that you are finding the show so helpful in your own life. So, one of the ways that you can help support the show is by just telling one or two people about the impact it's made on your life, and to encourage them to listen.
So, I know that some of you have been sharing in your adoptee support groups, which is awesome. What a great idea. And also, I've heard from some of you that you're actually bringing the show to share with your therapist, and they are getting more insights from listening to the Adoptees On show. And think about it, if they are able to help more adoptees through their struggles, I mean, it’s like full circle.
It's just so exciting to see this change shifting in the world. So, thank you so much for sharing the show in that way. And one other way you can help me to continue making this show for you is with your financial partnership. So adopteeson.com/partner has details of how you can support the show monthly, with a small gift.
And I have some thank you gifts as well for you for supporting the show in that way. So, I have a secret adoptees-only Facebook group, which is filled with past guests, and other supporters of the show, and they're all really amazing people. Let me tell you, we've had some really great conversations in there.
And also, I have another level of support with some unedited episodes of the podcast. And often I have a guest (Carrie Cahill Mulligan) come on, and we talk about what's happening behind the scenes of the show, and also what's going on in our own lives. Carrie's fantastic. She was a guest in…She was my very first guest, actually, season one, episode one, and then she came back to interview me all about my story (which is the season one finale), episode 13 of that series.
So, if you're all caught up, and you're looking for a few more shows, that's another great way to support the show. And fill your podcast queue. You can sign up for that, adopteeson.com/partner. Thank you so much for listening. Let's talk again, next Friday.
