228 Grace Kelly
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Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/228
Haley Radke: This podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing stated on it, either by its hosts or any guests, is to be construed as psychological, medical, or legal advice.
You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. I'm Haley Radke. I have to admit to you, this is the first featured guest I've had on the show who is not adopted. Do we pause for effect here? I'm excited to introduce you to Grace Kelly, who has successfully had her adoption reversed in Australia, and now works to help other Australians annul their adoptions.
We discussed the impact having her adoption reversed has had on her personal healing journey, and Grace also shares about the importance of our language and why she doesn't use the term adoptee. We wrap up with some recommended resources, and as always, links to everything we'll be talking about today are on the website, adopteeson.com.
Before we get started, I wanted to invite you to join our Patreon adoptee community today over on adopteeson.com/community, which helps support you and also the show to support more adoptees around the world. Here is my conversation with Grace Kelly. Let's listen in.
I'm so pleased to welcome to Adoptees On: Grace Kelly. Welcome, Grace.
Grace Kelly: Thank you, Haley. It's lovely to be here.
Haley Radke: I would love it if you would start by sharing some of your story with us.
Grace Kelly: Okay, well obviously, I'm Australian. You can tell that from the accent.
Haley Radke: It's delicious. I just gotta say.
Grace Kelly: I was born in 1969 in Melbourne, Australia, and I was adopted at birth. And I was adopted by missionaries, and grew up in Papua New Guinea. Came back to Australia when I was–I think I was about 10. The family came back. There was one other child adopted a few years after I was adopted (a boy), and we came back to Australia and then in– When I was about 16, the adoption laws changed and we were able to contact our families.
And so I put my name down and my mother (she was in Queensland at the time), she put her name down, and we had reunion just before my year 12 exams (which was probably really stupid in hindsight, because it was very upsetting). And then, I mean, then I just, you know, muddled on with the situation of having, sort of two families and not fitting into either. And not feeling that I belonged anywhere.
And then I sort of muddled on through life, and I guess did my best and had very, very complicated and difficult relationships with everybody involved in the adoption. And then when I was– oh gosh, four years ago, and I can't remember how I found out... I was just looking on the Internet and I found out that I could apply to the court to have my adoption reversed.
And I would have to say it was the happiest day of my life and it's a hard thing to say, because not everybody feels this way. And I'm not saying that everybody should feel this way, but for me, being adopted was like being in prison. It was like being on death row. It was a life sentence and I felt I'd done nothing wrong. I didn't deserve it.
And so the day I found out I could get a discharge, it was like, I saw a hole in the wall of that prison and I knew I had to get out. I had to get out of that hole. And I can honestly say I've never experienced more pain and angst in my life than going through that process.
And just desperate. Desperate to get out and terrified that the judge might not give me what I wanted. And it was hard. It was confronting. I had to tell the people who adopted me. I had to serve notices on everybody at the start, and when I put my application in, I wasn't in contact with any of them.
I'd effectively lived as an orphan for many years. And so I had to sort of send people letters out of the blue to serve notices on them and tell them what I was doing. And the court allows them to have a say. So that was terrifying. There was all those emotions and, anyway, in the end I got what I wanted. And my mother and my two brothers came with me to the court on the final day, and we sat there in the court and the judge gave me back to my mother, and it was just–it was just fantastic. We walked out of the court, we stood on the steps of the court. My husband sent two big bunches of flowers and we had our photo taken. And then we went to lunch, and that's the day my life began.
Haley Radke: That's the day your life began. Were you fearful that the people who adopted you would say something–that they wanted to still be named on record as adopting you? Was that something that you expected or anticipated?
Grace Kelly: I was fearful. I was fearful of hurting them. I was fearful of them opposing it. I was fearful of my mother and my family rejecting me. There was a lot of fear, but at the end of the day, I thought, “This is about me. It's time. It's time I took my life back.”
Everybody else made decisions for me when I was born. Nobody really cared about what I thought. They took my identity off me. They gave me new parents. They gave me a new birth certificate. They took one birth certificate and destroyed it, and gave me an identity that I was forced to live in, which was a lie, and I'd had to live that life. I'd had to live with the stigma and the discomfort and the anger and the shame. And I was not going to have it any longer. And I was going to take my life back and I was going to take my rights back.
And I came back to my family, not as a second class citizen, but as a fully fledged member of the family. Not an associate member, a real member with all of the rights, all of the moral legal rights, all of the natural rights of a child. I took those rights back. I claimed them for myself. The judge gave them to me, and I stood up and I was an equal in my own family.
I was no longer a kind of, "Yes, this is kind of a member of our family, but not really because she's actually legally a member of another family." And then, from that point, every day the pain faded. Every day, there was just less pain. And I'm not saying it's been easy, remaking those relationships. We've had challenging moments, and we'll always have challenging moments.
But the pain is pretty much gone now. The pain that I used to feel, I just don't feel it anymore. I'm a different person. I'm me. I'm finally me, and it's just the best thing.
Haley Radke: Grace, I have goosebumps. When you're speaking from this place of empowerment and you know, fully yourself and it comes across so well even over the Internet here.
And I'm curious about how you got to that place of deciding that and feeling that. Because, you know, I was just speaking to a friend the other day– We were just talking about how so many adoptive people wait to search until their adoptive parents have died. You know? Cause they don't wanna hurt their feelings or anything.
Grace Kelly: Yes.
Haley Radke: And, and so you're just like, all in.
Grace Kelly: All in. That's right. Because you know, my feelings never got considered. You know, I was born and I was a problem that people needed to eliminate, and I was a– And you know, we were part of the forced adoption era. This is what–I'm not saying… This is, again, I don't want to hurt anybody out there who's adopted.
They might be happy with it. It might be the best thing for them. This is my story; it is not a reflection on their story. It's not, “Just because I feel this way, it means others have to feel this way.” But the way I felt was that I was a problem that needed to be eliminated and no one cared about me when I was born.
I was just something to be gotten rid of and they never–no one ever thought about how I might feel about it. They all thought about themselves. All the adults thought about themselves, the people who wanted to be rid of the problem, and the people who wanted a baby to love. So, you know, you have enough pain in life and you get to this point and you think, "No, sorry. It's my life and it's my turn."
And I think the legal– We need to separate… In the adoption space, we need to separate the act of giving a child a home versus the legal act of adoption, which is destroying a child's identity, taking their birth certificate and giving them another one, giving them a fake identity. That is wrong. It should not happen.
And if you have good relationships with the people that adopted you, if that relationship is strong, then it should be able to survive you getting your own identity back. You know? Because life's complicated, right? We have relationships with people. Our relationships can be parental, they can be parent/child.
It doesn't have to be that a reversal is a divorce. It's really, and I think this is… In Australia, we are–we've had an apology for forced adoptions (federally), in 2013. We have– The adoption legislation is different in each state. In Victoria, the state that I was born in and adopted in, and I gave evidence.
We had recently a Senate inquiry here. I gave evidence in that. There's now a report and a recommendation that if adoptions do occur, they don't occur with any change to the birth certificate. So, when a child can't live in their family of origin… When they lose that, and they go to a new place, it's–adoption should be additive.
We shouldn't take off that child. We should be additive, so we should never take their identity. And we don't need to; we don't need to tamper with their birth certificates. We can simply have an adoption certificate, which is like a marriage certificate, where the people that take care of the child then assume the rights and responsibilities, and the child assume rights. So a child shouldn't have to lose their identity to gain a home.
Haley Radke: Absolutely. I mean, everyone that's been trying to work in original birth certificate access has been, you know, saying that, and just coming from this place of, I mean, basic human right, to know your identity?
Grace Kelly: To live in your identity.
Haley Radke: Yes! And you and I, it's just, it's obvious. How is it not obvious to other people, you know?
Grace Kelly: How is it not obvious? I've had the conversation with various people and I think, you know, you just have to explain it to them. And once you explain it to them, they do get it. But if you ask them, "How do you know who you are? How do you know who…? Tell me your name. What is your name? Who is your mother? Who is your father? Who are your grandparents? What is your heritage? Where did you come from? What's your family line? Who are your ancestors? How do you know that? How do you really know?” At the end of the day, there’s only one way that you can prove who you are, and that's your birth certificate.
So I gave a talk recently to an adoption group in New South Wales and they're doing (that's a state in Australia), and they're doing sort of two birth certificates and three birth certificates, you know, you can get. And I just said, "Why do you need a second and a third birth certificate? You're only born once. You're not born twice. You're not born three times."
So this birth certificate business becomes–it's an archaic tradition, which comes from people not wanting to– people wanting to cover up the fact that the child isn't born unto them. And what it is, is I'm not a religious person, per se, but you know, we're born to our parents and that's a God-given, right, okay?
And man can't play God and say, "No, you're not born to them. You were actually born to someone else." And this bang, the gavel, sign a piece of paper, and this court order makes it so. It doesn't make it. So it's just a piece of paper. It doesn't make fiction fact.
After I went through mine, (I write a newspaper column), and so my name changed. So I couldn't keep my old name, and I didn't wanna, I hate seeing that name, that I hated that name. I hated that name all my life. And that name was a yoke I had to wear around my neck. And I knew it wasn't mine– it wasn't me, and I couldn't wait to be rid of it. And I had to change my name in the public eye.
I thought, "How am I gonna do this? Do I just start writing with a new name?" And then everyone goes, "Oh, why did you change your name?" You know? And I thought, "This is really ghastly. I'm a very private person. I don't like talking about personal things.” Here I am talking on a podcast; I'm a very private person.
I don't like–I don't do social media, really. I don't talk about it, but I have to. It's my obligation now, to tell everybody why my name's changed, because A), it's the truth. People deserve to know, and it might help other people out there to know that you can do what I did.
So I wrote a column saying that this is the last column you'll ever read by this person, because she no longer exists. And this is why, and I explained about adoption and how it's about a change of birth certificate and how wrong that is, and how I had to undo it. And then I ended the column by saying, “This is my name. I'm here ready to continue writing for you, but it will be under my new name. I'm really happy and I hope you'll be happy for me, too.”
So, then I started writing in my new name and then I thought, you know, “Other people aren't as good as me at writing and filling out forms. And that was the part–that's really what getting an adoption reversal, that's where the hard work is. It's filling out the forms.” I thought, “I can help other people who can't do that.”
And so I just started a Facebook page Adoption Reversal @Cribmates and I called it Cribmates because we're all in the crib together and we're all mates. And so since that time I have been shepherding people through the reversal system in various states around Australia, and we're sort of up to number 10 this year.
So just, you know, always got a couple of cases on the go at a time and depending on the states, the processes for reversal vary. And, yeah, so I just do the forms for them, lodge for them with our email address, deal with the courts, deal with the attorney general's department, and then sit with them in the court as a support person. And speak for them if they want me to speak for them, and, yeah, get them out the hole in the prison.
Haley Radke: Without breaking confidentiality, what has been the experience for the folks you've walked through this with? What are the unexpected things? Like for you've kind of shared it's like this peace and you feel like, you know… But it's really changing your identity that you've lived with since it was changed for you. I imagine it can be quite emotional for folks.
Grace Kelly: It's very emotional. It is really, really hard. I spoke to one lady yesterday that we just achieved a reversal for, and she said that she feels like she's been born again. She feels like her life begins, and that's a common thing.
People suddenly realize that they are who they were always meant to be. So there is grief. There is grief for the lost years. There is absolutely grief for the lost years. There's anger at “the person I could have been if the person that I could have been wasn't taken away.” But more than anything, there's hope, and growth, and peace, and there's not–you're not trapped. You're not trapped living in this identity that was chosen for you instead of the one you were born with.
Haley Radke: And has anyone come and sort of, like, put their toe in? They kind of are curious, but it just feels like too much right now?
Grace Kelly: Yes, yes. I have had people come and we talk them through it. And so what I do now is, I talk people through the process.
I now send them away to talk to the other members of their circle, talk to everybody about it, talk to their family, make contact with people that they may not have had contact with. Think about it for a while. And then come back and let me know if it's really what they want to do. And sometimes they come back and they say, "It's great. I'm not gonna do it right now. I might…"
And a lot of people do want to wait until the people who adopted them pass away because they don't want to hurt them. Or there's other issues with inheritance that they don't want to disrupt.
Haley Radke: Right. Can you talk about that? Because it does change your legal status, right?
Grace Kelly: Yes. It changes. It changes it, yes. So, as a child, you have natural rights, you have the inheritance rights that… You don't have the right to inherit, or the right to demand anything. But if your parent doesn't– disinherits you, you have the right to challenge that, because you're the child.
So when you reverse your adoption, you’re put back in your family and you gain the inheritance rights, but you lose the inherited rights of the people that adopted you. Because the way that the reversal’s done here, they're done– It's a complete annulment, so it's as though it didn't… So legally, it never occurred.
So it's completely and utterly reversed. So now legally, I was never adopted. It never happened in the eyes of the law. So it's just an extraordinary thing to try and absorb. It's really hard.
Haley Radke: Do you know…? I'm sure you do, I'm sure you've heard this. But I mean, I have asked around. I'm in Canada. But most of my connections are with American adopted people and the process there, it really seems like, I don't know… Listeners, if you know differently, tell me.
But, if you want to be back in your family of origin, there has to be another adoption and they have to adopt you back and… Okay, talk about your reaction to that.
Grace Kelly: Oh, look, I just find that galling. It's the most shocking abuse of human rights. I just think that it's a fundamental breach of your human rights to have your identity taken off you without your consent, and to then have to go through this rigmarole to get it back.
It's absurd. It's absurd. And look, we are changing attitudes in Australia. We are– people are realizing that it's outrageous to take a child's identity and to take their birth certificate and give them another one with new parents on it. It's unnecessary, for a start. And it's just outrageous.
And I feel so desperately, desperately sad for people who want to have a reversal that can't do it. And, you know, it was the most empowering thing for me in the world. Because as someone who was living in an involuntary adoption construct, (and that's the term that I use when I apply)... I don't use the term, “adoptee.” I use the term, "person living in an adoption construct," because that's what it is.
And we also use the term, "survivor of forced adoption," because in Australia, it's been recognized that our adoptions were forced adoptions and they've been apologized for. So what do you do when you apologize for something? What's the next step? You make it right.
So what we need to do now is make it easier in Australia for people to have their adoptions reversed. We shouldn't have to go to court, we shouldn't have to jump through hoops. We shouldn't have to prove that, you know, we have special circumstances. It should really just be: tick a box, reverse it, give me my paperwork back. So that's where we are working towards.
But yeah, sorry, I know that what I'm talking about is going to be very confronting and very upsetting and it's going to give some people hope, but it's also going to hurt other people. And I'm just so aware of that. So I just want to say again, I just don't want anybody out there listening to think that I'm passing judgment, or that I'm saying that, you know, "Just because I felt this way, you should feel this way."
Everyone has a different experience. People living with adoption experience it in all different ways.
Haley Radke: Absolutely. Thank you for saying that. And, you know, it's incredible to me that you've walked through with these people, to assist them in their choice to annul their adoptions. Because I've seen you write it can cost $15,000 to have a lawyer assist you. So, it's really amazing that you're doing that. The other thing I wanna…I'm curious if you have a comment on this. Since you've been a columnist and, you know, working in the public and really have your finger on the pulse of a lot of these things, since the apology, you mentioned you've seen sort of a shift…
Can you talk more about that? Have you had, did you have comments when you posted your column? You know, "Hello, nice to finally meet you." Did you have people react to that? Were things, are things more positive now that there's more awareness in Australia?
Grace Kelly: I think things are more positive. I think I did… It's the only time that I've ever received angry letters. So, I did receive a couple of angry letters. One began, "HOW DARE YOU?" That was the first few words. But most people were positive. I think the general feedback is that most people said, "Well, yeah, I didn't realize that adopted people had their birth certificate taken away. How ridiculous.” And, “Of course that shouldn't happen."
So I think it's very important when we're in the adoption space to always clarify the difference between providing a child with a loving environment and a home versus the active adoption, which is the legal act of adoption, which is taking their birth certificate, severing that link, giving them a new one.
So they're two very, very different things, and I object to the taking of the birth certificate. I don't object to giving a child a home. I don't object to that, because I know that there are circumstances where people just simply cannot be with their family. The other thing I'm doing is, I'm encouraging people here and when I make my applications to the various courts, this is the language I use.
I never use the language “adoptee,” because people who adopt don't like to be called “adopters.” Okay? So I use the language– instead of "adopted parent," I say, “woman who adopted me,” “man who adopted me.” That's the language we use in the court. Instead of "adoptive brother or sister or sibling," we say "other child who was adopted by the people who adopted me."
We make it very clear what the truth is here. We also do not use "birth mother." We say "mother." "Birth father," "father." So it's very simple in the court, for the court records, for the applications, we say "mother, father, woman who adopted me, man who adopted me.” Applicant: “adult survivor of forced adoption practices seeking restoration."
So that's the language we use, and by using that language, we move the debate forward. In Australia (and it sort of varies between the states), but the legislation in most states is that you can have a reversal if you have exceptional circumstances. Okay? So that's the one we have. That's the thing we have to go under.
And what I say is, “This adoption was exceptional.” The circumstances were exceptional, because it had a federal government inquiry into it. It was classified by the federal government as a forced adoption. You mean, once the Prime Minister apologizes? That's exceptional and that's exceptional circumstances in itself, before we even begin the life story of the applicant.
So what I do is I start with that. And then I tell the life story of the applicant, which is usually exceptional. Always exceptional, actually (in itself), in that the treatment dished out to them, the things that they had to bear, or the pain that they suffered is not usual. It's not normal. It is exceptional.
And so the courts, the judges, the people in and around the court, the clerks of the court, the Attorney General's department, all of the people that deal in this space, they're very compassionate. They're very compassionate, and they take a compassionate interpretation of that exceptional status. And we have not had one knocked back.
Haley Radke: Congratulations.
Grace Kelly:Thank you. Thank you.
Haley Radke: That's really amazing. Now, speaking as someone who's just a little younger, was the apology, did it cover only certain years? Is there any limitations to, kind of, using that? Or it's just blanket for everyone?
Grace Kelly: It was–there was an identified era of forced adoptions, and I think it was something like from the 40s onwards, but I couldn't be quite sure. But basically, it's pretty much everyone who's alive in Australia today, really, other than just the very young.
And the one thing that I will say about the apology, is it did focus very much on the mother relinquishing. Mothers. And people who were adopted found that very hurtful. And we’re still fighting that, because– I understand there's extraordinary pain and grief in losing a child to adoption, but when you are adopted on the day you were born, if you are adopted at birth, you lose everything.
You lose everything and everyone; you lose your mother, your father, you lose your grandparents on both sides. You lose your aunties, uncles, cousins, siblings, everyone. You lose your entire family on the day you were born.
It is a catastrophic loss and so I think there's not enough recognition of that catastrophic loss that you suffer on the first day you're born and there's just too much focus in Australia, anyway, on the reparations and the apologies to the mothers who lost their children.
Haley Radke: So you hope for more balance there?
Grace Kelly: Yes.
Haley Radke: Okay. Now just to follow up on that and double down. I'm sorry to do that, but it's sort of connected. Then I could hear someone listening, thinking, "Well, what about the mothers who chose to relinquish? And they don't want their child legally back?" You said all parties do get notified of the process?
Grace Kelly: Yes, they do. Yep.
Haley Radke: And…I don't know. Can you talk about that? It's painful to think about, but I'm rejected from my mother and I can't imagine if I went to her and said, "Hey…!" She wouldn't be excited to have me back on the family register.
Grace Kelly: It's a hard one. So this is my attitude: "It's not about you. It's not about the mother. It's about me. It's about me and my life and my right to be me. My right to have a birth certificate that shows who my mother is. And if you don't want to be my mother, well, tough. Too bad. It's not about you, it's about me." And the courts here, they don't take that into account.
So the legislation, yes, they do allow the other people to say, and they can have their say, but the legislation is about the person who was adopted and whether it's in their best interests. So the court looks at three things. They look at, one, what was the impact of the adoption on the person who was adopted?
They want to know all about that. Secondly, they want to know, if the adoption reversal is granted, what impact will that have on the person who was adopted? Thirdly, if the adoption reversal isn't granted, what impact will that have on the person? So, you need to make the arguments that address those points.
Sometimes, depending on the jurisdiction, the court will get an independent report from a social worker or a psychiatrist, and we say, (and that's several thousand dollars, by the way).... And we always say, "No, we're not paying for that. You pay for it. You pay for it” (as in the state). The state took this child, the state was involved in this forced adoption.
The state usually placed them in a scenario that was dissatisfactory. It was negligent and there was a lack of duty of care. "And so you, you pay for this $5,000 report." And they do.
Haley Radke: Isn't it weird? And this is the first thing I'm thinking, “Wait, so the person that was adopted is centered? And it, and those three things are all about them?”
Grace Kelly: Yes, and when you bring it back to the legislation, that's the way the legislation is written. So if you bring that back to the legislation and insist on the legislation, it comes back to that. If you overlook the legislation, the person at the adoption isn't the one that's centered on, because all of the adults involved have their own wants and desires, and they bring their own needs to the table.
"My need to have a child.” “My need to be rid of a child.” “My desire to have a child.” “My desire to be rid of this child." Those are the things when it comes to the legislation, the legislation is crafted in the interest of the child. So we must bring it back to that and we must insist on that.
Haley Radke: Gold star for that. Oh my goodness. I don't know. It just– Over here, I'll just say North America. We have been really focused on allowing access to original birth certificates and, you know, here and there-- there’s some states that are fully open, some provinces that are fully open, et cetera. But to hear…
It just feels like you're all so ahead of us, you know? Is this the next step? So when you hear things like, for me, “Well then, the biological family has to adopt the person back,” you know? Or there’s some states where adoptive parents get to choose the place of birth on the birth certificate? If you could see Grace's face, you would know her reaction to that.
Grace Kelly: Contempt. That was contempt and disgust. Yeah.
Haley Radke: So, yeah. If you were talking to activists over here, what would you say? Like how would people start looking for that? Does it take one case of someone trying to get their adoption reversed? What do you think are the best next steps for someone working in this?
Grace Kelly: It's hard for me to answer that because I don't have a full sense of where you are at, but I'll tell you where I want to take this, Haley.
Haley Radke: I'm ready.
Grace Kelly: Now, here's a dangerous idea. Why is it that people are allowed to… If you have a child today in Australia, you are responsible for that child whether you wanted it or not; you are responsible. If the parent decides to abandon the child, they have to pay maintenance, for the rest of…until the child's 18, or perhaps even 21. They're not allowed to just shirk their responsibilities and say, "Oh, well, you know, it was a one night stand." Or, "Oh, you know, I was a mistake. I really couldn't be bothered with this, and I'm, you know, it's just not what I wanted to be doing with my life, is having this child."
They're not allowed to do that. And, you know, the state will requisition money from the parent's bank account and make sure the child's provided for; they pay maintenance. It's called maintenance. I think you call it alimony, or something, but we call it maintenance. Now, why is it that people can adopt a child and wipe their hands of them? Why shouldn't people who adopt a child have to pay maintenance?
That's where I want to take it. Because really, when that child grows up, they find their family and they feel very hurt that no one made a contribution to their upbringing. Why? Why do we allow people to just adopt a child and wipe their hands of them, wipe all that responsibility? It's not fair. It's not fair to the child. It might be fair to them, might be more convenient for them, but it's not fair to the child. And I can tell you that if my mother and father had paid maintenance for me, even if it was a nominal amount, things would be a lot different.
My life would've been a lot different. I would've not had such a deprived existence, or childhood. I would've been far better off to have had that maintenance coming in from then. And that fundamental recognition that, "We put this human being on the earth and we just don't–we do not have the right to wipe our hands of this person that we created. We have an obligation."
I believe parents have a moral obligation. And you know, when I went through my reversal, as I said, I was estranged and I was thinking about, well… Before I sent off the notice to say that I was going to, you know, apply, I was thinking, "Well, what if they don't want anything to do with me?"
And I just came to the conclusion that that's their problem. If they're gonna be like… I'm getting my reversal, I'm gonna get it. And if they don't want anything to do with me, well that's down to them. That's their problem. But I'm gonna have all my legal rights. I'm going to legally be part of my family.
I'm going to legally be my mother's child. So, if they don't want anything to do with me, that's their problem. But, you know, my family are really good people, and I, you know– They recognize the fundamental importance of it. They recognized that I was gonna be given back, and they stepped up and, you know…
I'm not gonna say things are perfect. They're never perfect in relationships, but, gee, they're as good as I could have ever have hoped they ever would be. And more. And look, as time goes on, it just gets better and better, because the length of time that I spent separated from them becomes less and less.
Haley Radke: So, we started back... Go back to the beginning when we shared your story and you talked about your state of mind this far out, from four years ago. And so many adopted people have pain and are, you know– We're always in therapy, and we're looking for healing and all kinds of things. Can you say– What's the one thing? What do you think is the peace? Where is that coming from?
Grace Kelly: It's the peace comes from, "I am where I was meant to be. I am who I was meant to be. I am who I was born, and I am where I was meant to be." On my birthday, I can celebrate my birthday now. It's the day I was born. I never used to celebrate my birthday. I used to spend my birthday trying not to be in tears, because why would I celebrate the day I was given up? What's to celebrate about that?
So now, on my birthdays, I don't have that pain anymore. I just don't. It took a while to fade. But it faded quite quickly. You know, when I say–I know, I just contradicted myself. I felt normal within probably a year, you know? And my husband's watched me with the reversal work, and he has said that every one I get through, he says, I get stronger. He says he's watched me get stronger. And I honestly feel like I'm standing on the outside of a prison wall, and there's a hole and there's a person inside and I have to reach through that hole and pull them out. And I tell you what, I'm going to keep doing this work for as long as I can, because I'm not gonna leave that space.
Anyone who wants out of that, all they have to do is stick their hand out through the wall, and I will do everything to pull them through to the other side, and pull them through to the freedom that I have, because I've seen how it's changed their lives. And I'm just gonna keep doing it, and I'm gonna keep doing it, and I'm going to keep telling. I'm gonna keep writing to governments, I'm gonna keep writing to the courts, and I'm just gonna keep doing it, until everybody realizes that adoption should occur without destroying a birth certificate and an identity.
When I first started doing the reversals, with the application forms on the courts, there wasn't even an application form for a reversal. You had to use the application form that people use when they wish to adopt a child.
Haley Radke: No. I thought you were gonna say, like, divorce or something. Ooh.
Grace Kelly: Yeah. And so I would have to cross out, you know, “name of child to be adopted,” and I would have to cross that out. And I would write in big capital letters, “APPLICANT IS ADULT SURVIVOR OF FORCED ADOPTION.” And I wrote to every court and said, "You don't have these forms; you don't have forms for us. We need our own forms and we need a section on your website, and you need to adjust your website." And most of them have, so we're working through that. We're bringing awareness to the fore.
Haley Radke: Amazing. You mentioned earlier that you had given testimony, and I have a quote from this. This is from the Parliament of Victoria. Query into responses to historical forced adoption in Victoria, and you're quoted in here: "Adoption legally takes a child out of one family tree, puts them in another, and issues them a new identity to make this administrative rearrangement appear a biological fact."
And I love how you have, even throughout the interview, you've talked about language use, and what you write on the forms, and this. And it takes out all the emotional things that often someone like me brings into it, you know? Because I wanna know the story and I wanna know… But that's not what's helpful in government situations.
Grace Kelly: No. And in that inquiry, I gave evidence. I mean, I had everything written down that I wanted to say. And I thought about it, and I thought really carefully about what I was going to wear. And I got there, and I just burst into tears and cried all over them. Oh dear!
Haley Radke: It's so deeply personal.
Grace Kelly: It is.
Haley Radke: You know, as much as we can put on a business front, and this is… We're talking about legal contracts and things; it's so personal, you know. It's our very core of us.
Grace Kelly: It is. Speaking of being so personal, I… When I meet people now, I'm not frightened to meet new people. I'm not frightened to introduce myself. I'm not wary. I don't dodge making new friends. I don't have to dance around where I came from and try and avoid the topic.
They ask me where my family are from, and I just tell them, “Well, you know, my family are in Brisbane. I have two brothers. You know, my parents were elderly.” And it's at that. I don't have to go into the, "Oh, you know, but I was adopted."
And then, you know, because what always used to happen is they'd say, "Where are you from? Where are you family?"
And I would say something; they'd, "Oh, this doesn't sound like you."
"Oh no. Well, you know, I was adopted."
"Oh, really? How lovely. Oh, how was that?"
You know, and then you're into this story, and before you know it, you're pulling your guts out and putting them on the table. They're sifting through your intestines. And then they sort of, satisfy their curiosity, or they have an argument with you about how they, “knew someone who was adopted and they were happy, so why aren't you happy?” And you are left a shattered mess. And they walk away and say, "Oh, thank you. I thought your story was really interesting." And it's just devastating. And I don't have to do that anymore. I don't have to say, "I was adopted, blah, blah, blah." I don't have to do it. And it is just freedom, freedom.
Haley Radke: You're not an anecdote anymore.
Grace Kelly: And you know, it really, really annoys me when people say, "Oh, I knew someone who was adopted, or then, and they were happy," and it's just terrible. It's a terrible thing to say. I mean, I was speaking to a girlfriend recently about it, and she said, "Oh, why is it so hurtful?"
And I said, "Okay. So you don't have children. Do you ever have people say, ‘Oh, I knew someone who doesn't have children? Well, they're happy. Why aren't you happy?’" She says, "Yeah, I do. I find it really hurtful." I said, "Well, there you go." You don't speak to an adopted person that way. You don't say that to them, because everyone has a different experience.
Some people are very happy in their adoption; other people are not. Don't ever try and tell someone they should be happy with it, or should be unhappy with it. Because I mean, I have friends who are very, very happy in their adoption situation. They're very, very happy and you know, that's great.
I would never try and argue with anyone. I would never try and persuade. That's one thing I won't do. As I said, I have a Facebook page, and I've said on that Facebook page, "I'm not here to persuade anybody to do it.” I'm not here to argue. I'm not here to say, “You should do it,” or “You shouldn't do it,” or, “Here's why you should do it."
“But if you want to do it, and it's really what you want to do, I'll help you. But don't come to me looking for an argument, because you're not gonna get one.” I don't have time to sit on social media all day, arguing with people.
Haley Radke: Absolutely. Well, one of the things I really respect that you've shared today, I mean this sort of, this underlying thing– Everything is about the person who was adopted, and this process really isn't necessarily a comment on the state of the adoptive situation they were brought up in. It's literally just as simple as: identity reclamation.
Grace Kelly: That's what it is. It's just identity reclamation. And there are people who are very happy to just be in that journey with the person, and put their own feelings aside. As the person who adopted somebody, they recognize that, you know, they're an adult now, and that they'll always have that strong relationship.
It's simply that they're getting their birth certificate back. You know, a lot of people want… They have children; they have grandchildren. They want their children and grandchildren, and then the people beyond that to be able to trace back through their family tree. And to go to the correct lineage. It's as simple as that. It's just truth, isn't it? Truth, isn't that what we all seek, is truth? And you know, sometimes truth is confronting. It's still the truth.
Haley Radke: Yep. And it's not a comment on any person involved. Besides me.
This has been fascinating. Is there anything else you wanna tell us before we move and do our recommended resources?
Grace Kelly: No, not really. I mean, I just again, wanna say that I'm sharing my story and I'm raising awareness, and I don't wanna hurt anyone, or upset anyone, or offend anyone. I really don't. Just because it's the way I feel, it doesn't mean it's the way you should feel.
And if you’re listening, and you feel differently, that's perfectly fine. I'm not saying– I'm not trying to tell anybody how they should view things or feel. It's just this was just me at this point in time. So, I'm sharing with you my experience and my feelings at a moment in time.
Haley Radke: Yes. Thank you for saying that. Grace, I'm so honored that you spoke with us today. I hope folks check out your organization, which I absolutely wanna recommend: Adoption Reversal. And the other resource for folks that maybe haven't really heard too much about what's going on in Australia, I have a couple podcasts to recommend.
There's the Adopted Feels hosted by Hana and Ryan. They're both located in Australia, they're Korean adoptees. And then Adopt Perspective from Jigsaw Queensland. Both of those podcasts have tons of episodes. Even Adopt Perspective has a couple of episodes on adoption reversal. They also interview someone who's gone through the process and talk a little bit about it. So if you want to even hear more about what's going on there, you can listen to those. I'll link them in the show notes.
How about you, Grace? What would you like to recommend to us?
Grace Kelly: Google “Australian adoption apology,” and just read the one-pager. And then there's a report that goes with it, but, you know, that apology is– it's profoundly altered the course of people's lives.
And we now have to take that forward to the next step, because it's one thing to apologize and, you know, they've given a whole lot of money for counseling and support and all of that. But everybody's kind of ignoring that we now need to undo the wrongs, so that's the reversal stuff. So that's the next bit.
But yeah, look, have a look at the apology and the wording of the apology. I've also posted on my Facebook thing the words of a judge, which is a judge in Australia's legal perspective on what adoption actually is. And I can– I'll post that again. And so that'll be the most recent post. I'll post it again, because I don't post on Facebook very often; I hardly ever go there. I'm just on there because I wanted to put my email address there, so that if people want to do a reversal, they can email me.
Haley Radke: Okay, we will link to that post, and I can also link to the YouTube video of the apology. I've watched it several times. It's very profound. Thank you. I'm so thankful you mentioned those things.
So Grace, I guess the best place to connect with you is your Facebook page.
Grace Kelly: Yes, email is better, because I can respond to that individually. I'm not great–so my email address is on the Facebook page. I'm not great with Facebook. Like I said, I don't go there very often. So if people put comments and things like that and I don't reply, please don't feel slighted.
If you send an email, I will respond, but yeah, I just– I'm actually not very good at using Facebook. And so I reply to people and then it goes to all, instead of the person, and I just, I'm not very good at it, so I'm apologizing in advance.
Haley Radke: All right. We will look for your email on the Facebook page, and no problem. We get it. All of these things are not easy to navigate. We've all made a little error here or there, you know, on the social media. This has been so wonderful. Thank you so much. I also just wanna thank the listener who wrote in and asked me to interview you, because they admire you so much, and now I can see why.
Grace Kelly: Oh, thank you. That's so kind of you. And thank you to that listener and thank you, Haley, so much. It's been an absolute honor and a privilege, and I just send a big hello and a big warm hug to everyone listening. And just to say, you're not alone and we are all in this together. No matter where we are.
Haley Radke: Beautiful. Yes.
Isn't she so passionate? I hope that if you are an adoptee activist and you have tried or are interested in annulling or reversing your adoption (especially in North America or any other country besides Australia), and you've been successful, or you've figured out some research– we'd love to hear about that. Because you know we have lots of folks who probably will hear this and be like, "I wanna do that."
Anyway, thank you so much, Grace, and for your work for the community, especially over in Australia. I wanted to let you know about the Adoptees On Patreon community. I mentioned at the beginning of the show, right now we have some really amazing things happening.
We just finished our book club with Rebecca Carroll, author of Surviving the White Gaze, and the recording of that is available for Patreon supporters. If you're listening to this the day the show airs, tomorrow, Saturday, we have an Adoptees Off Script party. And we're talking about family BS, which is a kind of a fun theme to get us through the holiday season.
And there's always lots of great conversations happening with fellow adoptees. You can listen to me and my friends talk about stuff behind the scenes on the Adoptees Off Script podcast every week. And there is conversation in the Adoptees On Facebook community, and all those places. So, that is an amazing way to support the show to keep existing in this world, and to connect with some fellow adoptees, and maybe make some new friends.
I'd love your support. Adopteeson.com/community has info for you. Thank you so much for listening today, and let's talk again next Friday.
