236 Shannon Gibney
/Transcript
Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/236
Haley: This podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing stated on it either by its hosts or any guests, is to be construed as psychological, medical, or legal advice.
You are listening to adoptees on the podcast for adoptees, discuss the adoption experience. I'm Haley Radke we are so excited to welcome Shannon Gibney back to the show. Shannon is an award-winning author of multiple books in her brand new release. The Girl I Am Was and Never Will Be, is a speculative memoir of transracial adoption.
Today Shannon shares some of her reunion story with us, how her lifelong friends supported her through some pivotal life events and how her relationship with her adoptive family has evolved over the years. We talk about the brand new book and try to be mostly spoiler free. And the most exciting announcement is that you look at the opportunity to join Shannon and me for an adoptee's only book club event in February.
So stay tuned for details about that towards the end of the show. Before we get started, I wanted to personally invite you to join our Patreon adoptee community today on AdopteesOn.com/community, which helps support you and also the show to support more adoptees around the. We wrap up with some recommended resources and as always, links to everything we'll be talking about today are on the website, adoptee on.com.
Let's listen in.
(Upbeat music)
Haley: I'm so pleased to welcome back to Adoptees On Shannon Gibney. Hi Shannon.
Shannon: Thanks for having me, Haley. It's always wonderful to talk to you.
Haley: I'm so excited to talk with you. In our last conversation, I think it was in April, 2021, so a couple years ago.
Shannon: Mm-hmm.
Haley: You briefly mentioned, like, oh, well now that I'm in my forties or whatever, , and I was like, this is the year I get to join you,
Shannon: Yeah. The forties are a, you know, it's a different road.
Haley: I'm ready. Different road. Yeah. I'm ready to be released into freedom.
Shannon: It's a, it's a good road. It's a go, especially for women. But but it's, yeah, there's a lot of, there's a lot of things, there's many, yes.
Haley: Well, we are celebrating with you cuz you have your brand new book out into the world: The Girl I Am, Was, and Never Will Be. And it is spectacular .
Shannon: Oh, thank you.
Haley: So we'll get to that, but will you start and just give us a little snippet of your story to catch people up if they haven't heard from you.
Shannon: Yeah, my name is Shannon Gibby and I was adopted by a white family in Ann Arbor, Michigan. I was about five years old. And this was in 1975. Five years old, five months old, haha. In 1975. I have two white adoptive brothers. One is two years older than me and one is a year younger than me. And then I did my birth search when I was 19. And at that time my birth mom, Patricia Powers, had put her name on the central registry.
And so we were able to make contact and we had a, you know, complicated on again, off again relationship for many years until her death from a rare form of cancer about nine or 10 years ago. And when I did my birth search, I also found out that my African American birth father had died when I was six as a result of a high speed police chase. Well, I should say complications he sustained from that, in Palo Alto, California in 1981 when I was six.
So I think that's sort of as far as my adoption story. My adoption journey. I'm 47 years old. I have two children of my own. One is almost 13, one is eight, and I think, I think that's it.
Haley: You've told it so many times, you've been able to just like snap it in this little photo for us. But this is your first book that really unpacks that story more fully.
We talked briefly about See No Color when you were here last time and that was fictional with some autobiographical elements I think you told me then. So what was it like, how difficult was it to get like some of your real, real you on the page this time around?
Shannon: Yeah, it's It's been very emotional, like, I mean, not while I was... so the book before this, the novel before this was Dream Country, which is about five generations of a Liberian and Liberian American family.
I think you all were kind enough to, to read that in your book club as well. And had me on to talk a little bit about that too. But you know, that book has a ton of Liberian and Liberian American protagonists my children's father's Liberian. And you know, there's a lot of sort of like personal connections, but the point is I'm not Liberian.
And that, that book is really about the chasm between continental Africans and those of us in the diaspora. But I had to do just a ton of research, you know, to get those voices right and to get all the details right. And so that book took me a very long time to write and this book just kind of, the new one, The Girl I Am, Was, and Never Will Be, I mean, it just sort of poured out of me and was actually very fun to write cuz I could really tap into these other parts of my, like, you know, like really embrace, like the full on black girl nerd and just with abandon and, and it's such a weird book. I mean, I, I, I tell people, you know, it's. This is definitely the weirdest thing I've ever written.
But, but I mean, and, and, and you know, and, and I say that, you know, I said that to, I think it was like Carrie Miller, who's an NPR host. She's like, you say that with such pride. That was. Yeah. I was like, yes, I do. So it was a very interesting experience to go into this book, which is something, as you say, that is so deeply personal.
I mean, it's, it's so, my story and my birth mother's story, you know, the letters are in her voice. I, I have you know, photos of myself, photos of my birth mom, photos of my birth father. I've got his death certificate. I've got, you know, letters from the adoption agency. I've got all kinds of stuff in there.
And so to go from something, you know, was really hard to write Dream Country because it was so outside my personal experience to something that is so deeply close to me. Was that, yeah, that it was, it was a lot. But yeah, so I had a lot of fun with it. I honestly feel like Haley, right now is going to be the most emotionally intense experience for me, having it out in the world because now this is my third novel, and again, novel memoir. I call it my novel memoir. What the f--k? I don't know what it is. But but you know, sort of like me, you know, a mixed black, what the f--k? You know, I don't know. But adoptee, I don't know, you know?
But yeah, I always say, you know, my experience anyway, writing and publishing has been, you're this this book and this piece of, of art for years usually. And then, you know, and if you're lucky, like I have a really good editor, Andrew Carr, this is our third book together. And so if you know, if you're lucky to have another person that you can work closely with, you know, you are working with one other person for years, and then it's like a child. It goes out into the world when it's published and it, but it doesn't belong to you anymore. People take it in, they interpret it based on their own experiences and their own lens and their own perspective. And then they, they, they put it back out, but it comes back to you different, you know, in different, in different ways. And so that process start early.
I mean, I sent drafts to my black bio family, my white adoptive family, somebody from my, my birth mother's you know, white Irish American family reached out to me and I sent her a draft and she just got back to me. And, you know, it's just been a lot of crying, like good cry, good crying, but you know, those deep wounds that you just, it's not like you overlook them, but you keep, you, you have to keep moving forward, but they're still there.
Haley: Well, and now you're doing things like this where someone has now read your book and seen all your, you know, deep thoughts about your experiences and then is gonna poke at them like this. I could see why this might be the most, the most painful time.
Do you have any great comebacks that you've crafted over the years, especially when non- adopted interviewers are asking you questions?
Shannon: Hahaha! You know, my dear friends Sun-Young Kim,, who is a, a wonderful Korean American transracial and transnational adoptee and also a poet, she's like, Shannon, just wait.
She's like, it's just, somebody's gonna ask you, you know especially, particularly with this book, somebody's gonna be like, would you rather have been raised by your birth mom or your white adoptive parents? She's like, just, just wait. Just wait for that. You know? And I'm like, and you know, and I told that to my editor and he just rolled his eyes, you know, and it's like, you know, so I'm, I'm sure that there's gonna be some, you know, interesting questions from time to time, and I just always reserve the right to not answer certain things.
It's just, part of, I feel like my prerogative as a writer, as an adoptee. Yeah. Because this book is so autobiographical. Yeah. There's going to be, there's gonna be, I think a lot more opportunities for like the digs to go, to go a little deeper. But also, I mean, I have to say too, that like people, so far people have been incredibly generous, you know?
And so I, I, I, that's. That is what I'm, that's my expectation. I had a boss who would say that. I was like, that's my expectation.
Haley: You can hold us to a higher standard. That's all good. Okay, so I guess I'll start where everybody else would probably start if you weren't adopted. So don't hold it against me, but at one point you share in the book that your adoptive parents were hurt when you were first searching, and I'm curious now what your relationship is like with your adoptive family? Because you, as you shared, you have artifacts from your life in the book, including letters that your, Patricia, your birth mother wrote to your adoptive mother.
Shannon: Yes. So I, I've been on quite a journey with my white adoptive parents and my white adoptive family. And actually one of the, the crying moments that I had earlier, this, I mean, last week I guess it was my older brother John, my white adoptive brother, he read the book and texted me he's like, Sis, this is really beautiful. And he was like you know, and I hope it does well.
And, and then later I overheard him talking to my parents on video chat, and I heard him say, I think also what she's trying to show in the story is that in the, in the book is that adoption is a loss. And he's like, and I never realized that before. And yeah, yeah.
Haley: Shannon's reacting to my face.
Shannon: Yes, I am.
Haley: Which you can't hear.
Shannon: Yeah, no. So I mean. When I was searching, when I did my search and I did my re- you know, and I was 19. It was a very isolating experience. It was a very, it was difficult. It was really difficult. And I mean, I will say that I think part of what the book is about too is, is the power of female friendships, you know, and how they can really also help many women what we need to do in the world when everybody else is sort of like, what? What the f--k? Like, why do you need to do this?
When I was doing my search and reunion, you know, my, I have a very supportive family, overall, but they did not understand why I needed to do this. And you know, I say in the book like, they lent me, their car, you know, I have, they gave me some money for, you know, gas and some other things. So did Patricia, and you know, there it was, it was a whole community. You know, my, my best friend Bobby went out with me and my friend Dagney went part of the way and yeah.
So, but, honestly, and we've talked about this before, one of my, one of my biggest, I love your face. What? I love podcasts, but I love watching your face, Haley. You know, one of, like, one of my biggest assets and life is that I'm honest and it's also one of my biggest liabilities. And I think also it's why I'm a writer too, because, you know, I always say like, if you're not telling the truth as a writer, as an artist, like I don't know what you're doing, but the way that it felt when I was going through search and reunion, I did not feel supported at all from, from my, from my white adoptive family.
The, the, the people that I really felt supported by were my three girlfriends, platonic Girlfriends, Bobby Dagney, and Karen. Those were the people that were with me every step of the way. Those were the people, you know, who went with me to the records office and found my birth father's death certificate and laid down in the middle of a cornfield with me, like crying and just, I don't even know.
Like, I just was like, I don't even know what to do. I don't, I don't even know. Those were the people, you know, like in the book sitting with me as I called my, my black biological grandfather and talked to him, you know, and told him who I was. How do you, what do you even say? What do you do? Those were, but most importantly, those were the people who were like ..." you're not doing anything wrong. There's nothing wrong with you, and you're not doing anything wrong and"
oh, I'm getting all verklempt. I'm getting emotional talking about it, you know, but it's just like, I do feel like as adoptees, a lot of times we feel very deeply that there's something wrong with us.
And, and a lot of it is not verbal. You know, a lot of it is really somatic. It's like in our bodies, in our responses to things. And so to have people who love you unconditionally, tell you, you're fine. And I'm with you through this all the way. I know it's hard. I know that people don't understand who you're, you're close to and have held you up in other things, but I'm not going anywhere.
That's really powerful. And you know, I've been friends with Bobby since I was six, so 41 years. Dagney I met when I was 14 , so that's 33 years. And also Karen, 33 years. And so I was telling all of 'em this week. You know, it's like, that's the other thing that's really sort of watching over me right now, you know, is just how lucky I, I've been with those relationships.
My dog is barking. I'm sorry. She sees somebody walking on the sidewalk and has to go.
Haley: You know what? We love a dog cameo. All good. I appreciate you sharing that so much. I'm bringing my personal experience and I know many adoptees experience as well when we've searched or found or found some information.
And to see the adoptive family. And Anne we're very good at detective work and seeing people's faces, but also what's underneath, right? So the adoptive family saying, yes, I support you, but all the other cues are like, Ooh, I, this, not really. So to have the people that show up for you is just like, I like my, my, my heart feels full for you to know that you had those friends by your side.
Shannon: Yeah, and I'm, I mean, I will say, I do wanna say, you know, and so my, neither of my brothers either really understood why I needed to search along with my parents, but I will say, they have changed. All of them have grown and changed through the years. They have evolved. And, you know, I, I just wanna be clear about that because people don't have to evolve.
You know, they, they can make other decisions and that is what has kept us close through the years is is those choices that they've made.
Haley: What was it like asking your mom? Get the letters and cards or like, how did that go? Did you ask her like, Hey, I just need my, the papers, whatever is associated with me, or what did, what was that like?
Shannon: Yeah, you know, that was easy actually. That part was very, you know, I knew that she would give me everything that she has. My parents have been always so supportive of my writing. They've, and I think after we sort of got over this hurdle, you know, of search and reunion and my mom said to me, you know, she, she really maintained the relationship with Patricia throughout all those years after we first made contact. Even in the times when she and I weren't really communicating and, and so that's why she had all those letters and all those things, and obviously she had a really different relationship to Patricia than I did.
So when I was like, you know, yeah, I'm writing this book, this is what it is. Can you send me any and all letters, documentation, pictures that are relevant, any anything. She's like, yeah, absolutely. And she got all that together and you know, the next time I was home, it's like this box of stuff and just, sort of like we were talking before the, the formal podcast.
You know, I had a sinking feeling because I read a lot of those letters in years and so a lot of the tensions and frankly hurt between Patricia and I, you know, it's just, it's rekindled. And I have friends, dear friends, reading the book now, who it's very, it that's also very interesting. They're like, oh my God, I just wanna take you and like hold you and like give you like this hug and like protect you. Like, like I know you already went through this, like it's 19 year old you, but I just, I just. I just wanna keep you safe. I just want you, you know, which is interesting. That's just interesting, you know, that that's their response.
Haley: Well, I think in, in our last podcast episode that was on the main feed, you were talking about how you're really most connected with other adoptees of color and, and how that community has grown over the years and now, like it's grown so much that I can think of several other adoptees who have white mothers and black fathers and whose white mothers are also racist AF and like, like unpacking that as a, a biracial woman and figuring out, oh my gosh, where is my place in this and where, how can I have a relationship? And you've done so much education on anti-racism and you know, all of those kinds of things. Like I've learned so much from you over the years and I just think, wow. Like even that, like the very bare minimum of acceptance. That was really painful to read in the book.
Are you willing to talk about that a little bit? And
Shannon: Of course.
Haley: Okay.
Shannon: Of course,
Haley: Because, I mean that's, that seemed to me as a reader, like that's the big fracture at the beginning.
Shannon: Yeah. So as we know, there's many fractures, as I say in the book, when the bond between mother and child gets, gets broken in any way there, there's gonna be fractures.
And then on top of that, if you have racial difference on top of that, it's just gonna be even more. And so yeah, this dynamic emerged between Patricia, my birth mom and I, where, you know, I found out pretty early on that she was queer, that she was a lesbian, and that that had also created a lot of tensions within her Irish Catholic family and in fact was in many ways why she was like, promiscuous with, with men for a while because they just couldn't accept that about her.
And so I had this idea then that sort of her status as a cultural other, because she's a lesbian, would allow her to better understand my experience as a cultural outsider, as a mixed black woman. And that wasn't true at all. That was not true at all. So in the book I, I talk about, you know, the first reunion and you know, Bobby and I drive up there and you know, Bobby goes to see her boyfriend at the time, and I'm, you know, staying with Patricia and her, her girlfriend Josephine, who's delightful.
The next morning, it's like we're we're having breakfast and I mentioned something in passing about being a black woman and she's just like, it's like the, It is, it's like this physical change in her body. Like she just get all tight and and she's just like, you know, it erases me when you, when you, when you say that.
And, and that's bad because I already feel erased. And then of course I have this physical response to that, which is just like, oh s--t. Like , what where am I, where have I come to? How can I get out of here? Like, this is not what I signed up for. Like this is not, I don't feel safe. I don't feel, I certainly don't feel seen or heard, and then I just sort of like changed the subject, you know?
And but that became as you say, like a primary fracture between us, because then I wrote actually an essay about that for a anthology and this was when I was 25 and I was developing, I would say, an ethics of publishing. So I had this very quaint, naive idea that I should share whatever I write with whoever I was writing about.
And so. Yep. And so I sent it to her and she completely freaked out and was like, cuz it was also about her family. Right. And some of the, you know, I go into some of the microaggressions that her family, I experienced with them as well. And she's like, you know, I put that in the essay too. And she's like, it's all lies, you know?
It's all lies. And I really, I just really wish the audience could see your face right now, Haley, cause it's like there's so many words contained in that particular frown. Yeah. Yeah, she was like, it's all lies. And she threatened to sue me and she was like, you need therapy. And you know, just like all this stuff.
And basically was like, I felt like my, I had two choices. Either I could pull the essay from the collection, which was, it was like St. Martin's Press, which is like a small press. So like, she never would've seen it if I hadn't shown it to her. I could either pull the essay, or I could have a relationship with my birth mom.
Like that's, that's, that was how I viewed the situation, so I pulled it. Of course, what I learned then was that my relationship with my birth mom at that point was already pretty much over because there was no trust there. Of course, I felt abandoned again. And she was, in my view, sort of like very sort of self-righteous and you know.
So, yeah, it was, it was kind of a mess. Yeah.
Haley: Well, I, I, you know what it did for me? Is it, it reading, you know, your experience with her and then, you know, I think of Rebecca Carol's memoir where her birth mother is...
Shannon: oh, a train wreck.
Haley: Okay. Yes.
Shannon: A complete train wreck. Yes. Oh my God.
Haley: Yes. But it, you know, these, these examples have really broken this fallacy for me, like, that, well you're, you may have had white adoptive parents. I'm, I'm generalized, I'm not talking about yours specifically, but like, that were parenting children of color. Didn't get, didn't get it. And then while at least of course, the person who gave birth to you would get it. Like, no, no, no.
Shannon: No, no, no. This is, this is the power and the, like, the pernicious power of whiteness.
Haley: Mm-hmm.
Shannon: You know, is that it makes white people monstrous if they are not aware of how it's working on them, particularly if they have power over other people like, like their children, you know, like parents do. And so that is why I know in my own experience as a, a mixed black transracial adoptee, I have so many friends who are, are mixed identify as mixed black too, women. And even though they're not adoptees, we have a lot of things in common that we, that we talk about in terms of, you know, issues with our, the white side of our family, issues with our white moms, all kinds of things like that. I mean, there's a, there's a lot of crossover.
Haley: I'm so glad you shared that because that's, that feels like a another key where people could unlock friendships. If you're looking for people to support you outside of the adoptee community, that's...
Shannon: Oh yeah. That's been huge. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Haley: Okay. Let's go to motherhood. You say, this is a quote from the book, the Daily satisfaction of finally having a family that looks like me. When I see you write about your kids on Facebook, I like, I just feel this joy from you and just like, oh, I don't know. I just, I always, I'm just like, yes. Now this is a mother.
Shannon: I love being a mom. I do, yeah. It's, it's exhausting and, and stressful. Cause I'm basically a single mom, but but my, my kids. Not like they bring me so much joy, they just like ground me.
You know? Like many writers and artists, I have a kind of brain that can kind of spiral off, which is why I can create things like books, right? But then the other side of that is that, you know, it can spiral into unhealthy things too, right? And so it's just very good to have people around you who are like, yeah, mom, dinner, dinner is what's going on.
You know, what, what is for dinner? Also, I had a bad poop. Also, you know, like I'm not sure how to do long division and the dog ate the cat's food again. You know, or whatever. Like, just these, these daily very ordinary experiences, you know, of mothering and caring for others and, and cohabitating with others. Yeah. I'm very thankful for, for my children every day.
Haley: Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . . All right. I dunno how to ask this without being spoiler-y. So we're riding like the edge here. I feel like
Shannon: Riding the edge of spoilerdom . Okay. Yes.
Haley: Okay. So I find it amazing that both Shannon and Erin, who is also Shannon, have, have no idea about their father. This father figure is like, not present through the story and yet is right. There's this like, and I thought, yeah, isn't this like an adoptee? Even in the like imagined, where I would have the answers, I can't even summon up the father on that side.
Shannon: Yes, yes, yes.
Haley: Now, is that too spoiler-y or is that? Without giving...?
Shannon: Okay. No, that's not spoiler-y no, I mean, and I don't think, I mean. The book is interesting because it's basically, like in the prologue, I tell you the whole story of the book. I tell you, I tell you my whole life in two pages, right? And then I'm like, okay, now I'm gonna do something else for the rest of the book.
So, you know, I, other readers might have like a different experience and I'll be glad to hear from them. But I don't think of it as that kind of book that you can like spoil cause just because those aren't the kinds of questions that it's sort of after. But yeah, I mean it's sort of like the Boise Collins Jr., who was my birth father, I mean, he is like, he and his family, that's like the black side of my family. So it's, it's like they've, they're lost and erased, in a way, for both Erin and Shannon. And that is a profound loss. You know, both of, you know, his role as her father, her birth father, but also in terms of, you know, the, the, the cultural loss of, you know, black culture.
And so I think both characters feel that keenly. One thing that I was really actually surprised by and talked with my editor about as I was writing this, is that I think in many ways though Erin is more alone than Shannon is in terms of her ability to navigate someof these difficulties and the supports that she has, you know, she's got this really close. Erin has this really close girlfriend Essie but other than that, she's really kind of on her own.
Haley: How does it feel writing about that loss knowing that, you know, he, he died when you were six years old and so there was never going to be an opportunity for you to meet him. And then how have you connected since I know you shared you were able to speak with your grandfather and how has that been?
Shannon: Yeah, so, my, my uncle, Boise Collins Jr. who's also is a character, actually big character in the book. He, I, I've sent him multiple drafts of the book. And the first thing that he said, which also brought me to tears this was the summer, was he's like, I feel like this is, yes, the story is about this journey. You know, like this, these, this young woman, these young women are trying to, you know, piece these things together. But he's also said, I feel like this is also, it's, it's for your father, it's for your dad. It's something that you made for him. Which of course yeah. Was incredibly moving to me because I'd never, again, I've never really, I didn't think of it consciously that way, but of course, you know, since other people have been reading it, they've also told me that same thing. And of course, you know, in life I never got to meet him, but in art I can, you know? Yeah.
Haley: I love that. That's the, that's it. That's perfect. I, again, no spoilers. I love how you write about him in the book. It's just tremendous.
Shannon: What do you, what do, what do you like about it? Can I just like why do you specifically
Haley: Well, when he's described as this like brilliant person and the accomplishments, I just went straight to, oh, of course. That's why Shannon is so brilliant and, you know, has written these like tremendous books and, and I thought, oh, this is the through line this, this is, you know, so to discover that and then. Actually really when I see you write about your son online and what he, I was gonna say precocious, some of the things that he's put, but it's, it's not that he, he's so wise beyond his years in the way you portray him online.
And you know, he pushes back on things that, you know, some of us would be too Shy to do, and I just think, oh yeah, that's the line. So I love that that's the piece you wrote, right? It's again, like this myth busting of like what we have in our heads sometimes about adoptees, birth parents, like Right, it's the stereotypical kind of like, whatever, low income, don't have enough resources so of course the baby has to get adopted out and you know, like all that kind of stuff. But that's not how you write him. Like he's a real person and he was brilliant and Yeah. Yeah, that's what I see. Yeah.
Shannon: Yeah. And complicated. You know, like, I mean, there's like part of this family that's like, yeah, he was bipolar and then there's another part of the family that's like, no, he just, he just had issues, you know, like on like, you know, and so it's just like I, and yeah, and I think that that's the other thing that, you know, sort of racialization and/ or sort of putting people into these stock categories, you know, like birth parent or whatever it does, is it takes away their individuality, you know?
Haley: Yeah. And their human, like, their humanity. Mm-hmm. Yes. Yeah. Okay. Is there anything else you wanna share before we do our recommended resources?
Shannon: I just wanna thank, something that my, my friends and I call Planet Adoptee, you know, all the adoptees out there who are sharing their stories and connecting with each other and trying hold all the holes in our stories together and to, and to sit in those holes. Because I think it's a paradox that that's the only way that we, we will become whole. Mm-hmm. And so, or, or healed, you know, at least in moments. And so I just, yeah, I just wanna thank all of you for who you are and how you approach this life and and yeah, engaging with my, with my work. And love to hear, love to hear from you about it.
Haley: I, I think that's so powerful, right? Like, you know, you're in the podcast, you've written multiple books now. This is your speculative memoir that's out in the world. And there's, you know, so many of us that we're not, we're not gonna, we're not gonna write the book as much as we might want to, we're not gonna write the book. And so to have our stories represented and to be able to find pieces of them through you and other adoptees is just so magical. I think. So as I was reading your new book, I mean, I've read, I think I've read pretty much everything else that you've put out in the world. But because this was one, this was so deeply personal to you, it also was deeply personal to me as an adopted person. As you shared, there's all these documents like from the adoption agency, the letters from your birth and, and I mean like actual, you know, scanned copies of them. So people can see the handwriting and all of those things. It felt so real and ...
Shannon: I know probably sometimes too real, like sometimes Yeah.
Haley: It. Some of it I was like, oh my God, is this what my birth mother wrote about me? Is this what, like just so many like connection points I felt with you. I, I just, it's so good, Shannon. And I'm not just saying this cuz we're looking, you know, face to face here.
Shannon: Yeah. Thank you.
Haley: This is the thing that people wanted and we haven't really talked too much about, like, the whole premise. It's like, who the characters in the book. It's like, it's you and your story. And also what if you had stayed with your mother? Yeah. And so, and in looking at that kind of going back and forth, and that's what we always dream about as a kid.
Like so many of us think about like, well, what, what did we have been if we were still with our biological family? And so to have it like interspersed like that, The surprise. I mean, so good. I don't wanna say. this is the hard part. Like, how do you say that without saying the thing?
Shannon: Yeah, yeah. Right, you gotta read that part. Yes. You gotta read the book to, you know, get at the, sort of the, the, the ending, which is, you know, sort of like my nerd finale. But but yeah, I mean, I, I think so many of us, as you say, go about our lives with this. These dopplegangers, you know, this, this sort of, this, this person living on this alternate timeline.
That's me. But it, it's not me. And what does that mean for my own identity for my relationships, particularly, you know, probably with my adoptive family, but, but not just that, right? Like my sense of, of reality and. And so this was really sort of my, I mean, it's kind of a gift, but it's just sort of also just like this experiment, you know, of like really, you know, I, I described the premise of somebody, a non- adoptee one time, and they're like, oh, it's like sliding doors.
And I'm like, no, it's not... . No, it's not at all like sliding doors because sliding doors is this sort of, And I don't know if people know that it's an old movie with Gwyneth Paltro and it's like, oh, she did this. She went in this door. Then like her whole life would've been different, but she went in that door or whatever.
But it's like, you know, and there's many stories like that, but with this, it's sort of like, I wanted to really just like sink deeply into the, the other reality. For me, Erin Powers, you know, the, that was my name at birth. No, what is her daily life like, really? What is her life like with Patricia and you know, her white biological family, you know, and you know, with, with Shannon, you know, like how does she think about Erin and how do they intersect and what kinds of new knowledge or information can we get sitting deeply in those two realities.
That was really kind of the premise of the book. Because also, you know, another thing that my friend Sun Young said was that, you know, we, we have stories of search and reunion, but we actually don't have a lot of stories about the longitudinal experience of search and reunion, and she's like, and so I think it's also important that you wrote this book in your forties because it really shows the intergenerational sort of effects of this.
And you know, it's not seamless and it's not easy. And it's not, you know, like all these things, right? I mean, there's still all these ruptures that, that keep popping up.
Haley: Absolutely. And you, and there's this, the one thing that you do, that there's the whole chapter of this whole, you know, story, whatever, and then a little bit down the way you're like, oh, okay, that wasn't actually true.
Shannon: Yes.
Haley: Like struck through.
Shannon: It's like, oh yeah.
Haley: How many times has that happened to us? Yep. Yeah, it's so beautifully written. I mean, I know people have read your other work and so I'm sure they, they have an expectation. It what lives up to the expectation exactly of what you think this might be. And I love that you talk in our last interview that you're writing it like at that time and you tell us a little bit about it.
So anyway, that's just like a special little like breadcrumb trail to where we are now. Yeah. I just, I love that it's in the world and I think so many adopted people will feel very seen. No matter what their experience is, even if you've not had the reunion, even if you're, if you don't wanna search any of those things, it's like the speculative nature of it, like the what ifs.
I think that's very relatable. What do you wanna recommend to us?
Shannon: My friends at the Alliance for the Study of Adoption and Culture they have a journal and it is, hard copy and online. The hard copy edition for this particular special edition isn't out yet, but it's available online and what it is is various critical adoption scholars, many of them adoptees talking about the Dobbs decision, which of course, you know, is taken away the abortion, women's right to abortion and nationally, and so critical adoptions, study scholars writing about how that intersects with issues of adoption.
And so I've read, you know, just a, a few of the pieces, they're all a thousand words or less, and you don't, you don't have to be an academic to appreciate them. And so I just, yeah, I just would encourage folks to, to check it out online.
Haley: Awesome. Yeah, I'll definitely link to that. Oh my goodness. So many brilliant people writing over there.
Shannon: Yeah. Oh my. Yeah, it's, yeah. Yeah. Kind of amazing. Yeah, they've, I think they have 12 up right now or some, something like that. That's a lot.
Haley: Okay. Well, and. What I find is when we read pieces like that, that can just help us in our everyday, if we're talking to people like it, it can give us language as well to express some of the things that probably have been turning around about those, right? Yeah. So yeah, and I agree, like you don't have to be academic to access any of those things. It's. readable. We're trying to like, help people access those things.
Shannon: Yes. Well, academics, it's like, it, it, it's a problem for academics too, right? Like, I, I mostly write creative stuff, but I do write some scholarly stuff and, you know, I've got a, a piece on little fires everywhere with, you know, Dr. Kimberly McKee coming out in feminist formations, you know, a little later in the year. And I mean, yeah, it's got some academic elements, and we're looking at little fires everywhere through a reproductive justice lens, right? We want, we, we don't just want academics to read it, you know, like we want to hear from just regular people, you know? So it, it, yeah. It, it is a problem that, you know, sort of, things get siloed into these places and people are like, oh, well that's not for me. But it's like, what? Not necessarily, you know, like.
Haley: Yes, it can be for sure. It can be. Okay. Can you tell us where we can connect with you online?
Shannon: Okay, so my website is probably the easiest way, and it's just my name ShannonGibney.com. And I try to keep that pretty up to date particularly with events and such. And then I'm on IG and it's Shannon at ShannonElaineGibney. My full name with my middle name and then Twitter is at Gibney Shannon and Facebook is Shannon Gibney.
Haley: Perfect. We'll link to all those and I'll definitely link to your events page cuz you've got lots of stuff coming up with the book release into the world. So there's live events, I think some virtual things coming to you, and we are going to have book club with you in February.
Shannon: Yeah, I'm so excited about that. I'm really so excited. So yeah, thank you.
Haley: You had mentioned earlier that in that in 2022 we, we read Dream Country, we also read See No Color, but we had you come for a Dream Country to have a conversation with our adoptee readers. It was so good. So can't wait for that and hopefully people will come and join us.
Shannon: That would be fantastic. Yeah. I love, I love book, book club, so thanks for telling me . Yeah.
Haley: We love adoptee writers and there's so many books we just, there's, you know, can't even pick them all, but you're our first repeat author.
Shannon: Woohoo.
Haley: In book clubs.
Shannon: Woohoo.
Haley: Love it. Love it. Thank you so much, Shannon. Congratulations on your brand new work, and I know there's more coming from you.
Shannon: Oh yeah. It's a busy, it is a very busy time right now, but a good time. Too. Yes. So yeah. Yeah. We like to be busy writers, like to be busy, so yeah, for sure.
Haley: Wonderful.
Shannon: Thank you Haley and everyone really appreciate it.
Haley: I totally missed asking Shannon about this, but I do wanna let you know, Shannon read her own audiobook. So if you are an audiobook fan and you want her to read this book to you, she will, which is so amazing. I love hearing authors read in their own voice and there's just something about that personal connection and they know what they meant when they wrote a sentence.
So you'll get the exact tone that they intend for you to get when you're listening. So I love. Shannon is so amazing. I think I mentioned in the show that this is gonna be her second book club with us, so we have that event coming up in February. If you wanna join us, it's adopteeson.com/bookclub has details about all the upcoming book club events and it is a live zoom.
So we usually have a one hour interview with the author, and it's me and my co-host Carrie Cahill Mulligan is gonna be doing that interview with Shannon and I take questions from the chat and read them out. And that's an hour on Zoom that is recorded, and then later the audio only is released into the podcast feed for patrons, so you can listen anytime if you're not able to join us.
Our book clips are usually Saturday mornings on North America time. And yeah, if you wanna join us, we would love to have you. We have some other book clips coming up right away. We are reading Already Enough by Lisa Olivera this month, which we have a book club with her at the end of January. Lots of great stuff happening over on Patreon for supporters of the podcast who help keep the lights on over here.
So AdopteesOn.com/community. If you want to learn about the other things about Patreon. If you have your calendar handy, our adoptee's only book club with Lisa Olivera reading already enough is going to be January 28th, 2023, and our book club with Shannon Gibney for her brand new speculative memoir is going to be February 25th, 2023 and both of those are Saturday mornings. Thank you for listening, and let's talk again next Friday.
