247 Katie Bozek, Ph.D., LMFT
/Haley Radke: This podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing stated on it either by its hosts or any guests, is to be construed as psychological, medical, or legal advice.
You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. I'm Haley Radkey. Today's guest is Dr. Katie Bozek, a therapist and the executive director of KAAN, the Korean American Adoptee Adoptive Family Network we talk about the complexity of what being asked for our story brings. Katie shares how the birth of her first child was, what set her on the journey of looking closely of what being adopted truly meant to her.
And we touch on ways we both parent as adoptees with a focus on building connection. Before we get started, I wanted to personally invite you to join our Patreon community today over on adopteeson.com/community, which helps support you and also the show to support more adoptees around the world. We wrap up by talking about the upcoming KAAN Conference and want an adoptee led event with a focus on community building and wellbeing can look like links to everything we'll be talking about today are on the website, adoptee on.com. Let's listen in.
I'm so pleased to welcome to Adoptee on Dr. Katie Bozek. Welcome, Katie.
Katie Bozek: Oh, thank you so much for having me.
Haley Radke: I really appreciate speaking with you today and I would love it if you would share some of your story with us to start.
Katie Bozek: Oh, the what parts of my story, because I'm old, so my story could be very long.
Haley Radke: Katie. I'm turning 40 this year now. I think my audience is gonna have a drinking game of where, how many times has Haley said that in episodes this year? But how old are you?
Katie Bozek: I will be turning 42 in just a few months.
Haley Radke: Okay. We're not old. Come on.
Katie Bozek: No, we're not.
Haley Radke: Just tell us what you'd like to.
Katie Bozek: I think it's and and I'm sure everyone, all your listeners know, it's such a loaded question.
Tell me your story. And I think as an adoptee, for me I will answer your question at some point, but I gotta ram before a moment. Cuz that's what old people do. We ramble for a moment before we answer questions.
Haley Radke: You have to stop calling us old.
Katie Bozek: Sorry. I do it cause I don't believe it. It's I've gotten to this point, I'm doing what I'm doing.
I'm like how is this happening? How is this life? How have I made it this far? And, and that ties right back into, telling your story is, it's such a loaded question for an adoptee for me. And when I hear it from non- adoptees, I'm, I get the sense they wanna know all the gritty details, right?
When were you adopted? Have you been back? Have you found your biological parents? Have you found your real parents? All of that. And it's different when it comes from an adoptee. But it also still hits at that, "what is it that you want me to tell you? What are you looking for?" And I think as an adoptee who has lived this long, not old, it is recognizing those spaces of when you are asked a question, how do I want to answer this?
And what kind of mind frame, mindset ,am I, what are they looking for? What is their position? What do I want to get out of that conversation? Are they looking to get something out of the conversation beyond just information? And so I think my story goes right to being able to say all of that. Being able to go through my life, have all those many years of just parodying back, oh, I was adopted when I was six months old. No, I don't know. My biological parents. Oh yes, I think that I'm happy. And oh, I don't think about them all that much. Which is a lie.
And to being able to say what do you mean by that? What part of my story do you want? What is it that you're asking of me? Which is an actually funny thing to say back to someone who asked me on their show to talk about my story. Hopefully you, hopefully I do not offend you by that.
Haley Radke: No, absolutely not. I know that's one of the things that, like the critique of that question is who's asking? Absolutely. And most of us listening are adopted people.
And so I ask it to build a connection with you and the listener. So they can be like, oh yeah, I totally get that part. I identify with that. That's not my experience, but I feel that part and building up this beautiful connection versus the exploitative nature of wanting the tea. Someone who doesn't get it.
Katie Bozek: Yeah. I think there's, definitely something about, asking that question as wanting to get information versus really wanting to understand the process and understanding that there is a process to being able to share your story. Our stories are not linear.
I think there is a lot of going through parts of your life and then looking back on it, making sense of it from a different perspective. Weaving that into how you see yourself. On that current day moving forward and then doing that process again. And I think that's where, when you ask about, when anyone asks, what is your story?
Tell me about your story. I think more of how have I gotten to this place of understanding my story is my story and no one else's. And that my story is from my perspective and what goes into that perspective and that is experiences and information and life in general. So.
Haley Radke: Is this a good point to, to point out that you're a therapist?
Katie Bozek: Yes. Because therapists never actually answer your question. We always have to be very reflective. Yes.
Haley Radke: What do you mean by that, Haley?
Katie Bozek: Exactly. As soon as you ask, I was like, oh no, this is such a therapist response.
Which is, It's a funny thing cuz I feel like I am a therapist, I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, but I feel every day I learn something more about myself. I learn more about humanity, I learn more about my role in humanity and where I fit. And that's such a beautiful thing.
Haley Radke: So you were adopted from Korea. And you now live in Michigan, is that right?
Katie Bozek: Yes. So I was adopted at six months and, to my parents who are from Grand Rapids, Michigan, and then I've stayed there the rest of my life. My husband and I have our three kids and we all still live there.
Haley Radke: And what drew you to becoming a therapist?
Katie Bozek: Oh, this is a funny question. It's a funny answer. So I did my undergrad in psychology and I knew I wanted to go into psychology when I was in high school. I was one of those weird kids who knew exactly what she wanted to do and then went and did it and never changed. So I knew in high school I wanted to go into psychology.
I think that's the only thing that changed. I did not become a psychologist, but I wanted to have my own private practice and I wanted to do everything on my own terms. I'm doing that. So in undergrad, when I was looking at graduate schools and looking at what programs and what I wanted to do, what I wanted to study the question of, I really wanted to understand why do some couples stay together and why do some divorce?
And so I just, I literally typed it into Google marriage therapy or couple therapy. I don't even know what. And the program at Michigan State University popped up. I had a meeting with the program director. I applied and got my master's in doctorate from there. So I'm a Marriage and Family Therapist because I Googled it, because I did not know there was such a thing.
And it's a whole different way of looking at people and relationships. And it just, it fits my worldview more than what I thought.
Haley Radke: And who do you primarily see in your private practice?
Katie Bozek: I see everyone. So I see individuals, teens, individual adults, couples, families, sometimes kids. It really runs the gamut. And that's because my, my training is in systems and communication. So I'm able to see individuals and more than one person in the room, not just couples.
Haley Radke: And then what percentage would you say if you want to are people coming to see you that are connected to adoption some way?
Katie Bozek: I'm terrible at percentages and the funny thing is, Haley, is it goes up and down. So there'll be a time where I have a lot of people in my office dealing with some of the same things or similar situations. And then other time, like it'll switch. Sometimes I'll have a lot of families in, sometimes I'll have a lot of teens and sometimes I have a lot of couples in it. Just, it is interesting, I haven't figured out that wave yet.
So I would say right now, I would say 50% of my client load right now is an adoptee or someone connected to the adoptee, adoption constellation. And that's been actually pretty consistent over the past few years. I don't know how to explain it, but I always feel like, okay, when I get those waves of people or clients coming in, that it's more than just a few, I always look at myself and say, okay, what is it that I need to work on? What is it that I need to learn? And so it's interesting that over the past, probably decade, I've had more and more adopts come in into my office in, in doing that.
Haley Radke: You al always wonder that about the adoptees who are therapists that come on the show. How you balance your own self care and work and not bring that into in an unhealthy way. Bring that into the counseling room. Because, oh my gosh, it could be so activating or triggering for someone if you haven't personally worked on those things in yourself first.
Katie Bozek: And you definitely have to work on those things. You have to work as a therapist in your training and beyond that in your own boundaries and recognizing what is your own personal response and how does that fit into what the conversation is. And so I'm very aware of that when someone says something, whether it's an adoptee or not, and I have my own response of this is a very strong response and I have to quickly put it and check and understand where to locate that and what to do with that.
Haley Radke: I'm curious, when you first started encountering adopted people in your life. Did you know any other adoptees growing up? Did you know any other kids that were people of color? Asian, Korean. How, what did that look like for you in childhood and beyond?
Katie Bozek: It's interesting because one of, how did it go, our neighbors at the time in the eighties worked with someone who was looking to adopt and that couple ended up meeting with my parents and going through the adoption process at a similar timeline as my parents. And they, their daughter came to America, oh my, six months or a year after me, and they would get us together. Her and I are not that far apart in age, I think a year. And so we were pen pals because during the eighties we didn't have technology.
So I have somewhere in my house crayon written letters to each other. And I always, it's funny because we've always known that, but that's not something we always talked about. And it, that's always an interesting thing when I really think about it because I think about all the other families who have other adopted siblings in their Families and how some don't talk to each other about that experience.
And actually it's, so I had her growing up and then the area that we lived in, predominantly white. So I think we had one black girl in my class, one black, two black teachers in elementary. I'm thinking about elementary. And then we moved to an even more predominantly white suburb in junior high.
And it just, I think there were five other Asian students that I avoided because I didn't want to be outed that I wasn't actually quote unquote Asian. That's how transracial adoptees tend to feel right, is I'm not actually truly Asian.
So there was that part. I do have, so in my family, there's me and then my parents ended up having two biological kids, and my youngest brother is also adopted from Korea. But him and I never, ever have talked about being adopted or Korea growing up. I think maybe a tiny bit as adults, but not really. That's a whole other bottle of wax. Oh, I see. The wheels turning.
Haley Radke: Thinking of what you do, I do find that interesting.
Katie Bozek: So yeah, it's one of those things that, you know, as a therapist, I can spot in all the other things. I know it's jacked up, but in my own family it's also, okay. I'm also very aware of how much emotional energy I give to others and when it is going to be beneficial and when it's not.
And that's just something that happens in family sometimes, where for myself, I have to draw certain boundaries. Yep.
Haley Radke: I think there's this piece of safety that we've been talking about lately as we, critique the phrase out of the fog and we learn more about the adoptee consciousness model and are thinking of adoptees who never critique adoption, are happy they were adopted, think everything is the best and the amount of mental capacity it takes to start looking at your adoption critically. And that can really upset a family dynamic. So I think lots of people are really weighing carefully which kinds of conversations to have. So.
Katie Bozek: 100%. I think weighing and then I think there's weighing, and then there's trying and seeing the kind of response. And then also where you are just in your own point of life as well, you know how much more to push, how much more growth you as a person need. All sorts of things.
Haley Radke: Okay. So I mentioned this to you before we come on. I may have read part of your dissertation. Yeah. Okay.
Katie Bozek: Oh God. Okay. I do have to preface, that's been like, What, 20 years ago, so I might not remember anything that you read.
Haley Radke: This was submitted for your doctorate in 2009, so we're not quite 20 years. What is this? Let me look at the front date to the grant. Yeah. Yeah.
Katie Bozek: This is little, that gonna be like 15 years.
Haley Radke: It's okay. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna give you your panel questions. No. Easy softballs. No you were just talking about this safety. So you interviewed 15 women who were adoptees. All adopted from Korea.
And talking about different moments in time through the life cycle of, you should really tell us what it is about. But my question is about a specific time. A lot of them, it seemed to me, when you were talking about elementary age, some of them were expressing trying to maintain safety for their adoptive parents in not sharing the episodes of racism and discrimination they were already facing from their peers in elementary school.
And I thought, oh my gosh. Like we are brought into these family systems as infants or young children to like, make a family and do something for the adoptive parents. And we know that innately, like, how does a little kid know to protect their, quote unquote, protect their adoptive parents from the pain they're experiencing? I just found that so sad.
Katie Bozek: It's very sad and it, these are just my thoughts. Okay. I don't have research to back any of this up right now, but I think about all of the small moments that we go through each day. That actually end up being really big moments. So I think about parenting, it might even just myself as a parent, those moments where I might be, someone might come to me, one of them might come to me when they were little and how do I validate their fears or something that happened that I might not think it's so big, or I might not understand it.
And how do I validate that? How do I know that they're listened to? I always say that I would be a completely different parent if I did not go through therapist training because of how I was brought up. My parents, and I, and the thing is, it starts from such a young age where we don't have those conscious memories of asking questions or bringing something up.
And I promise, Haley, I'm gonna weave this all together. Okay. But I think about, cause I, I have thought about this quite a bit just for myself. I've got three kids right now. They are 16, 14, and 11. But when they were younger, it started with my oldest. He would ask me about Korea. He would ask me about my first family, and he, I'm trying to remember what specific questions he asked because all three of them asked different sets of questions. What I was, I found very interesting, he focused more on my birth mom and being sad that I didn't know her and that he didn't know her.
And I remember when he brought it up, I don't, again, I don't remember the exact question. I just remember being caught off guard. Oh that's not even something that I talk to you about. Or like I bring up, honestly. His birth is what set me on this whole journey of going through, like really looking at, being adopted, what that means to me.
And so then when my second son came and he asked questions about my biological father, and that caught me off guard because I didn't really, we talked so much about mothers and not so much fathers, that caught me off guard. And he asked questions and, between the two of them I was like, I answer them with, I don't know.
And I'm very careful with how to tell 'em, I don't know, I don't make up lies for them. I don't do anything. If I do ask them what are they thinking of? And having those two experiences made me think about what would it be like when, what was it like when I asked those kinds of questions. Because they act pre, like pre-conscious.
They were probably four or five when they first started asking questions. And I thought that's how I knew not to ask any questions. Because even now, if I bring it up, they, to be honest, Haley, my parents, they don't even know what I do for KAAN. I don't even think that they know that can exists cuz they don't ask.
I, I've tried, I've given it out. I and there's nothing. So I just think that was there before. So I just think about, okay, that's, I had to have been dismissed, had to have gotten the notion somehow because kids are so observant of their, of people's reaction. So any slight reaction. Is going to give that idea of, oh, I shouldn't ask that.
Oh, that's not safe to talk about. Oh, mom, dad, they don't wanna talk about that, so I'm just not gonna say anything. And the same thing happened with my daughter when she was, start asking questions. And her questions are, I don't know if they're, yeah, there are questions and also demands. And I laugh because it'd be random, like driving the place and she'd ask me about my birth mom and why don't we know her?
Why can't, why don't you remember? She was really stuck on that. Like, why don't you remember her? I don't get it. And that makes, you should know where you were born. You saw it like, why can't we just go there? It made her so mad, like a little three year old, so mad. And actually all three of them came to the conclusion, I think this is the point I'm processing through and remembering all three of them came to the conclusion and asked me if they had died.
And I said, I don't know. And I thought about it and I thought yeah, to them that would be the only logical reason why I would be separated. That's the only thing that makes sense to them. And just putting it in like a child's mind and understanding that, and then thinking of myself right at that age, like for me, when they were asking questions, it was, this is a very natural process for children who are adopted or have that in their life.
Ask questions to want to understand because they have a child's mind. Now how that gets weaved into the story that parents tell is a whole other thing. And I have absolutely no idea if I answered your question.
Haley Radke: I No, I asked about in your dissertation and about these, women who as children already felt this innate need to protect their adoptive parents from the pain they were experiencing. And for me, I see that as this underlying need, of it's not about a home for us, it's about family building in a different way and Yeah.
Katie Bozek: Yeah. And how that gets, it's not, it's again, our story. How does that become our story? And what happens when all that collides in that moment of a child asking about their family, their first family, and what is the response to that? Is that validated? Do adoptive parents get mad? How is that handled? Because kids are gonna take that and learn from that.
Haley Radke: I'm not sure where to go next. Are you comfortable talking about your adoptive parents a bit because I feel like I was gonna poke there, but I don't want to if it's ...
Katie Bozek: I guess it depends on what you wanna ask. There's not really, I have pretty firm boundaries with them where, people would look at me and say, I don't really have a relationship with them. They're not the most healthy emotionally to do that. And that's something I've learned over the years. And it's something I'm, I continually try to navigate because, it's one thing for me. I never want to deny them a relationship with my kids, but at the same time, I also want to protect them from some of the, some of those repeated patterns.
So it's like constantly, ugh, what do I do? And it's not always like the, there's the emotional part too. My dad is still very much of the mindset of the colorblindness model, and that is very opposite of what my husband and I teach my kids, which, and my husband is white, so my kids are biracial and we have those difficult talks.
We are very honest about that. And that is not something that my parents do at all. So that is also, that's been tricky over the years. Because I feel like I put a lot responsibility on my kids when like my dad will gloss over something or say something more on the racist lines or just not knowing, just being ignorant. And they are much more aware and have those conversations.
Haley Radke: Thank you for your candor in that.
Katie Bozek: Yeah.
Haley Radke: Yeah. I was, gonna express some form of, me included, a lot of us are estranged from our adoptive parents. Because for whatever reason, the more boundaries that we've put up, they're not respected. Or we just don't have the capacity to do this anymore.
And, we're just trying to maintain some sort of personal safety and frankly, sanity because it's a heavy weight to carry everyone else's expectations. When we're just trying to figure out who am I? Who am I still? Yeah. In my thirties, who am I?
Katie Bozek: And it's still it's hard. It's so. Sorry. My brain's like exploding there. There's a lot of different layers because I think it's very easy for outsiders and also for people within the system to say, oh, you just need to accept that we're your family and you're adopted. And just be okay with it. And be happy and not have questions and not feel any of the other feelings.
And that's the message, going forward. But that is only one narrative. I think the parents who are able to accept that there are multiple narratives there and that one is that their's is not the most important all of the time, that lends itself to more healing, to more conversation, to more emotional availability on both sides.
And that starts going right back to what I was talking about with the kids is how is the parent able to hold onto their own feelings and to be able to say, okay, tell me more. This is about what's going on for you. And that is a, that's a skill not just for adoptees, but just in general.
So I was giving this example, the other, I'm gonna say the other day, but I actually mean the other month. So we, we moved four months ago and my daughter was having the most difficult time, like to the point where even today she refuses to call the new home, home. That's the new house. Her home is where we used to live. Totally fine. Totally fine. Okay. And there was a day where she was really missing her home and crying and just telling me she was having a really hard.
And it would be very easy as a parent to say Yes, but look at all these great new things here and at the new house you get this and that and all of this and you know it's so great here and blah blah blah. That would be missing the point. The point is you really miss your home and you're really sad today and that's ok.
I can see how you would miss your home. Doing that kind of process is what builds that relationship and that safety and the relationship. Whether it's talking about adoption or moving or someone making fun of me at school or anything else. It's can you set aside your own?
Because inside I, my first reaction was, are you kidding me? We bought this beautiful house and you're not happy. Not really. I totally get it. But it's like that process, that, that skill a lot of parents, sometimes that's hard for parents to, to do. I get it, but doesn't make it right when they don't.
Haley Radke: I flagged this thing that you said earlier that you were like, I don't lie to them. I don't make up stories. And I'm like, absolutely. We don't even do Santa at my house because of that very reason. What, because as an adopted person, I just wanted the truth all the way along. And every time I discovered another lie, be it Santa Claus or whatever manufactured story was on my government paperwork, it was just one more see, this is not trustworthy. And I don't wanna have any of that with my kids. I wonder how many of us have that sort of feeling as parents adoptees who are parents.
Katie Bozek: Yeah. Oh, I'm sure. And that's the thing, is like it manifests in so many different ways. Is our experiences as kids and like what is so important, why it's so important to us.
Haley Radke: I wanna switch, let's talk about connecting with fellow adoptees.
Katie Bozek: Yes.
Haley Radke: So what did that look like in adulthood for you?
Katie Bozek: Ooh. Oh, so like I said, my whole like adoption journey where I am today. No, I back up. It's always been part of me. But I really put a lot of work and intention into it after my son was born.
After he was born, it was, I think we brought him home two, we were home two or three days later, and I had laid him down on the floor and he just started crying and flailing his arms. And I immediately just immediately flashed two thoughts of that's what I must have looked like when I was left. Cause I was found quote unquote near a police station.
I don't even know if that's true or what that means. And from that moment on, I've been on this journey to understand. To, to heal, to connect to all of that. So from that, at that point, I knew of knew adopting, I'm trying. Healing there. I was in graduate school at that time. So actually doing some of these interviews was help, was really hard cuz I didn't know a whole lot. But also really helpful in healing because there was a lot of things that I could connect with and what they were sharing with me.
And then some I stayed in contact with afterwards. And then at that, I don't remember how everything came together or what years it was. I started to do, I don't remember how I got roped into it. And I say I use the word roped specifically because it was doing panels for adoptive parents, prospective adoptive parents.
Haley Radke: Oh, no.
Katie Bozek: But, I know. I think about so early in my journey and just wanting to share my story and share with them that it's not all roses and rainbows and you have to do a lot of work.
So I took out very much on, You have to do the work.
Haley Radke: That's interesting, Katie, because you obviously were already very aware at that point then, because I've talked to many adoptees who were involved in those kinds of things. Who were still saying it's all good.
Katie Bozek: Oh, no. Oh God, no.
Haley Radke: As a sense of self-protection.
Katie Bozek: Yeah, and I was very fortunate because it's horrible because I've lived a long life, Haley, not old. I've lived a long life. I don't exactly remember how I became friends with the friends that I did the panels with, but I'm still friends with them. And we were all of the same mindset that no, you parents have to do the work, you have to do this.
At one point, the last panel I ever did, and it makes me cringe now cuz, I did the panels for Bethany Christian Services. Yeah. See? Yeah, cringey. The last panel we did was at a big like company-wide luncheon and I told them all that they are a business. And the sooner you understand that you are a business and you are in the business of selling children, you will do your jobs better. There were crickets and I was never invited back, and I am okay with that.
Haley Radke: There's somebody in their car being like, good for you, Katie. They're like,
Katie Bozek: But it, through being able to do that and to share those kinds of experiences and to reflect. And then, yeah, just added a few more. I went to, I went to KAAN in 2013 because it was in Grand Rapids, and one of my friends who was a friend of a friend was helping with the local logistics. And so we, oh, and then. That's right. Sorry. It's like all blurring, trying to remember like the timeline of things.
I started going to, at some point we had a Michigan adult adoptee group that was started 20 years ago, and they would meet for dinner once a month around the state, and it was open to all adoptees. By the time that I started going, it was more mostly just Korean adoptees.
And then, so we did that for several years. And then with KAAN we presented on the group. I think I presented on something else too. I don't remember. So it's been like all these, like different opportunities here and there that have come along, that I've taken and just expanded my people. I don't know what else to say.
I don't wanna say network because that sounds like I'm using them, but. Like my people, my tribe. Even during my dissertation, like I just think about the people that I still in contact through, through that, but also just how new it was then. Or I didn't have a chairperson. I had a chairperson who had done some work in domestic adoption, but not transracial adoption.
And so even like thinking back then oh, where we are today with information, with research, with understanding, I'm so different.
Haley Radke: I just think about how things have exploded in the last five to 10 years of accessibility and connectivity for the adoptee community in particular has been really amazing.
Good and bad. Good and bad.
Katie Bozek: Yeah. As with everything with technology, and I think there is... what I think about now with that is how do I, how do we ground ourselves and where we came from and all the work that's already been done and continue to move forward? Meaning, before the internet, before phones, before TikTok, before Instagram, before all of that adoptees were already gathering, we're already having these conversations.
They were starting to do research, starting to use our voices, starting to do all of this foundational groundwork. And so sometimes when I see some of these, I call 'em, like adoptee influencers out there who are like talking and reflecting about their stories. I want to just send them a list of all the resources that, okay, this is not a new conversation.
I'm so glad that you're realizing this. But I want you to ground it now in what has come before you so that we can collectively move together to the next phase of whatever that may look like together. How we connect, how we talk, what are the conversations now? Because it's not just our own experience as adoptees.
What does that look like for our children? What does that look like when we become grandparents? What does that mean? We know adoption is a lifelong journey. Quotes or quotes, but what does that actually mean relationally? And for our stories, how does it, you were talking about what is important to you and having the truth.
That was really important to me when I told my kids about my adoption. And when we talk about that, that we are 100% honest that I don't know. And I will tell you, I don't know, because I cannot lie to you because I don't want to lie to you about that.
Haley Radke: Yeah. It was so important. I absolutely agree about honoring the critical adoption advocates who have done all the work for us to join in with them along the way. Absolutely. I want to talk about KAAN now. So in 2018, you became the executive director, and you said your, the first time you met was in 2013. Yep. Do you wanna talk about what does KAAN stand for? How did you become the executive director? Why is it important to you? I'd love to hear all about it.
Katie Bozek: Yeah. So 2013 is when I first went and grown up. And so then I went back in 2016. They were in Pennsylvania, Pittsburgh. And I presented on two panels. And then in 2018 let me back up.
So locally there was a group, West Michigan Asian American Association, and I, there was an adoptee who my husband was, has been friends with for years and years. And he kept telling me that I could be on the board. So I got on the board. That was a huge thing to be around all these, quote unquote real Asian. And the executive director, when she found out I was an adoptee, she had someone who had just moved into the area and who had reached out to her, wanted to be involved.
And that is Kimberly McKee.
Haley Radke: Oh, see, I got Disrupting Kinship it's over here. Right there.
Katie Bozek: Oh yeah. Everyone knows Kim. And so her and I, we like to joke because the executive director of WM AAA set us up on our first friend date. And so we've been friends ever since. And and she was very heavily involved.
She was the assistant director of KAAN before, so in 2017 she had reached out and let me know that they were looking for a new executive director. And I said, oh wow. I can't believe Stacy's stepping down. Just that conversation. And then a little bit later it was, Katie, you should think about applying, be the executive director.
Oh, Kim I don't have enough time. Like I no that's too much. That's, yeah, too much. I don't think I would be good at that. All of that stuff. And then it was, again, Katie thinking about applying, all right I'm sure there's gonna be less people, and I highly doubt that I would get it. Sure I'll apply. And lo and behold, they wanted to have an interview and I. Said, okay, I will do this. Not knowing exactly what it would all entail, but I think that is with anything that we do, we dunno exactly what we're getting ourselves into. And so now 2018 officially started the September, 2018 and had our first in-person, my first in-person running at conference in 2019.
And then in 2020 obviously we had to shut it down and we pivoted and did an online event. And then again in 2021 did an online, a virtual conference online. And then last year it was our first return to in-person conference. And I think the, I'm not sure I can put into words. What it means to me, because honestly at first when I took it, it was, okay, yes, KAAN needs a new executive director.
I can do that. That's typically how my brain works. If there's a need to be filled, then okay, I'll jump in what needs to be done, I can do this. But being in this, I hold it very it is a privilege.
I'm gonna divert for a second and then I promise I'm gonna come back. Okay. So I think about my, what I do as a therapist as a privilege. I hold it very sacred because I am seeing people at their worst, at their breaking points when they are struggling the most. I hold that very, I hold my responsibility to hear that, to be present with them during that as a privilege, as a responsibility. I do not take that lightly. I do not think of it as a job.
I don't think of it as a career. I don't know what to place it as. But that's how I, that's how I also think about KAAN and the more that I am in it, the more that I am talk to people and hear people in their stories of how KAAN has impacted them. That's how I think about it. It's more than a job.
It's more than something that I do. I don't think I have a word to describe that, but I think that's how it is for those of us who do this kind of work, because we all do it on a volunteer basis, and I don't think people really understand what that means. Yeah, sure. I don't get paid for that, but that also means that I will go through a full clinical day and then I'll do a meeting at night or host an event or do emails or some theme.
It's more than just putting things together. It's trying to explain to someone why we do what we do. It. It's so many different things. And it means so much because when I hear people and I see people at the conference or get emails of how KAAN has impacted them. It's just like, people need to have this space.
And it's, I think about social media influencers as starting the conversation. Getting people to like start to think differently. And then I think about the different organizations that are providing different cultural activities, connecting with each other, doing, those social aspects.
And I think about KAAN as this is where we have the really hard conversation about adoption. About what it means to be an adoptee, what it feels like, looks like. That's where we have the tough conversations that we need to have a space to have those tough conversations. And I think that's taken me a few years to get to understand like just what KAAN is within the community of the different adoptee organizations out there is that this is where you have the tough conversations.
It's not an easy space to be. Okay. And that to me, again, that's where I think about like how I view therapy and also this is where people are coming and really being vulnerable because they're not having these kinds of conversations every single day. That's too draining. That's what therapists do, right?
And so I think it's, I had one person come to me last year and just thank me for the conference and for KAAN, and it's not just me. Mind you, it is not me. There's, there was a team behind me that they do the work, right? This is a very much a team effort. Most of it reminded me what I need to do and this person came up and.
Was very teary-eyed and just said that, and I'm not joking person said that we saved their life. And that to me, like I will never say that's what we do, but to hear someone else say that, to know that's the kind of impact that we have. Yeah, I'm gonna keep doing this and make sure we can keep, having space for these tough conversations.
And KAAN is the Korean American Adoptee Adopted Family Network but Stacy Schroer, the executive director before me, hadn't started to move toward, we are open to anyone. You do not have to be just Korean to come. So we have domestic adoptees, adopted from other countries. Anyone who is an adoptee who meets this kind of space as welcome.
And embraced. Not just welcomed.
Haley Radke: I love seeing an organization that leads from the adoptee perspective. Adoptees are the experts. This most of the speakers. And what you've heard from Katie in this like progression that you've talked about, the history to having these hard conversations about whatever it is, parenting, mental health passing on what your ethnic identity looks like to now your own biological children as an adopted person. These are the topics that are getting covered at your conference. And I feel like your event I've watched it through the years. I've never been able to attend. I was invited, I had a really terrible conference experience.
Not at yours, at another event. Whew. I'm not gonna dredge that all up. But it was not good. And so I swore off the conference experience for myself for my own mental health for a while as a presenter. But I've been attending virtual adoption conferences cuz I like to stay up to date with things.
I'm always looking for new guests, you know how it is. And it doesn't matter which event I've gone to, there's always so much like how to adopt and adoptive parents leading things and saying, oh, we need to be listening to adoptee voices, but they're still the ones presenting or whatever. And I, you just, I'm just like, but wait, I'm like then step aside, ma'am.
So I've really appreciated that. And another thing that you won't know this piece either, but, I remember after having that horrific conference experience a number of years ago, I was talking to a fellow adoptee and I was like, oh my gosh, these conferences have gotta get it together. What is happening? Like, where is the safety? We're talking about triggering topics and what's going on here?
And she was like the KAAN policy is really clear. So you have all of these safety things built into your conference policy about expectations from both presenters and attendees.
And I remember looking at that and thinking wow, like they're really taking care of the safety of everyone. So I really appreciate that too because we're talking about those really in-depth things. So do you wanna speak to that a little bit? Because I know that I probably have scared a few people from gonna to conferences since I shared that experience a few years ago, which was as a presenter, I had a someone in the session give a verbal attack which was not great. So just for context.
Katie Bozek: Oh, that's very concerning and I'm very sorry about that. And I'm sorry no one stood up for you.
Haley Radke: It was another presenter That was the person that was yeah.
Katie Bozek: Presenting with you?
Haley Radke: No.
Katie Bozek: Oh, that's interesting because like you said, we have lots of safeties and we have a lot of expectations for how people will conduct themselves. And we did have two incidents last year unfortunately, where people were escorted out, where the people, the participant said, no, you do not, this is not your space. You need to leave. And they were escorted out because it needs to be safe for everyone. And if you are not, if you are not listening to others, then we will not, it's not tolerated at all.
And we do have, and that's why I feel so, I'm so sorry that no one stuck up for you and said, you are, this is not right. This is not how it's supposed to be.
Haley Radke: There, there were people in the room that later have expressed to me like we were all in freeze mode cuz it was just so outrageous. Like it was just like, it's just was just like a group paralysis, there's no hard feelings on anyone that didn't stand up cuz it was really a shocking sort of thing.
Katie Bozek: Yeah. And I think there's definitely a difference between being adoptee- led, adoptee centered organization doing a conference for adoptees versus doing the conference on adoption. I think those are two very different things, right? We are not an adoption conference. We are a conference for adoptees. That is what we are. That is what we are about. We do allow non adoptees into certain spaces. Not all. Because there is value in being able to listen and to learn, but like you said, we do have strong policies and expectations that if people are not being respected, you will not be allowed in that space.
We have, and this is something that Stacy had put in place years ago, was adoptee only sessions. So it's a safe space for all adoptees to be able to talk about whatever is going on in the session. One of the policies, even with our technology now and our ability to record and to do, live streaming and things like that, what I stand behind is we will not record anything.
We do not record our sessions. We do not record our virtual events or anything because I want to protect that safety, that people feel that nothing is going to be used without their consent. That it's not just out there. And I stand by that pretty firmly because, like you said, we want to feel safe.
So we do everything that we can in order to do that. How we work is we, for, on our registration, we identify those who are first time attendees and we send out a certain e we send out special emails to them. We will have, we started this last year cuz we're in person again last, or for the first time last year, have a virtual meet and greet with first timers to explain this is what you can expect.
Also, if you're here, if you're going on your own, like you can meet other people in this space. And we also have that Friday at the beginning of the conference, the space for first time attending to reiterate, this is what you can expect, meet some people.
And then there's also a debrief. A short debrief time on Sunday for anyone who just wants to debrief and talk or listen about the weekend because it's heavy. It's a heavy weekend. So those are just, some of the things that we are, we do to try to make sure that those who have not been there before feel supported. Not that we don't support those who have been there multiple times.
Haley Radke: Absolutely. Yeah. No, I totally get what you're saying. Okay. So you're in Illinois this year?
Katie Bozek: Yes, we are in Rosemont, Illinois this year. Okay. The Weston O'Hare. We are right near the O'Hare Airport. Close to the blue line. Go downtown.
Yeah. I'm excited. I'm excited for it. Although it does raise my anxiety as well, but mostly
Haley Radke: I used to work for an organization that put on giant conferences, like with 10 to 15,000 people, so the stress level of events, it's Woo. Yeah. Very real to me. But we'll link to the registration info and everything for everyone.
If you're listening, when this drops the conference is June 30th, July 2nd, 2023. But of course you're a yearly event and you've got all the sessions up already that people can check out. I God, this, some of the, these look so good. I don't like that you don't record them. What would just be, I'll say that cuz I won't be able to see these.
Katie Bozek: But we've gone back, we've gone back and forth and we come back to what is the safety of our attendees.
Haley Radke: Absolutely. I know, I'm just giving a little, I know bias for Canada because flights down there are not exactly always a great rate.
Katie Bozek: So a friend of mine, Michael Steelman, he is with the Korean Adoptees of Canada. He is from, oh no, Toronto. He's driving down so he drive to down, although I don't know where in Canada, that's a really long trip, but, okay.
Haley Radke: Okay, tell us where we can connect with you online and find out information about the conference while I Google how long it would be to drive from where I live to the conference. Just for funsies.
Katie Bozek: You can find all the information that you need about the conference and social media and all the things at www.wearekaan.org.
And KAAN is K A A N..
Haley Radke: And what about folks who are looking for a great therapist?
Katie Bozek: Oh, no. Unfortunately.
Haley Radke: You're booked. No.
Katie Bozek: Yeah, I think pretty much every clinician since the pandemic has been.
Haley Radke: Isn't that sad? I know it's hard. It's, we can go on your wait list. We'll link to your website.
Katie Bozek: We can go on. Oh, my business website. I'm a therapist. I'm not a business person. That website is Oh, old. It's old Haley.
Haley Radke: All right. If you ever feel like flying up to Edmonton and driving down with me to Rosemont, Illinois will take you 25 hours without stops. Oh. So it's not really quite in the cards for me.
Katie Bozek: Maybe not this year. We can connect and figure it out for next year. Maybe a big rv if you're getting enough people. We want to come next year. We're still in Rosemont next year, have an RV trip.
Haley Radke: Okay. Okay. Sounds good. We wanted to talk about KAAN as our recommended resource for you all today. And so I hope that if that sounds interesting to you, if you're looking to connect with fellow adoptees in an adoptee led space, this is a great choice.
Thank you so much, Katie, for talking with me today.
Katie Bozek: Thank you. I really appreciate you having me on and for listening to my story.
Haley Radke: I had so much fun talking with Katie. I don't know if that came across, but we had a really great time. Thank you so much Katie for talking with us and if you decide to go to KAAN because of our episode, make sure you let them know when you register. I wanna see how many Adoptees On listeners attend.
I am really thrilled about the virtual ways we have been building community over on Adoptees On the Patreon side of things, we have a weekly podcast episode. We have book clubs, we have off-script parties, which are Zoom parties and all of those things. Over time, it really has built some really incredible friendships, but for me, and also for listeners who just wanna connect with other fellow adoptees who are unpacking what impact adoption has had on our lives.
Some folks are navigating reunion stuff. Some folks are not even sure if they wanna search, and a lot of us are talking about advocacy and what it looks like to tell the whole truth about adoption in our everyday, everyday lives. And there's a cost to that. Yeah, those are a lot of the topics that we cover on Adoptees On Patreon.
So if you are interested in becoming a patron of the show, you can pay yearly or monthly. Adopteeson.com/community has details of all the things you'll get if you join us. And this month we are reading Harrison Mooney's Memoir Invisible Boy, which is so very good. And we're really excited to welcome Harrison to a live Zoom at the very beginning of May to talk about his book with us, with our book club, though we are interested in that adopteeson.com/bookclub as details of that and some of the other books we'll be reading this year.
Love to have you join us and your support is what makes this show keep existing in the world. Thanks so much for listening. Let's talk again next Friday.
