259 Welcome Back!
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Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/259
Haley Radke: This podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing stated on it, either by its hosts or any guests, is to be construed as psychological, medical, or legal advice.
You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. I'm Haley Radke.
Hello, friend, happy fall. So excited to be back with you, bringing you brand new episodes with fabulous adoptees that you need to know and hear from. I can't wait for the fall lineup we have prepared for you.
So starting next week, we are going to have brand new interviews. I...mmm. So good. I've had really excellent conversations and I'm thrilled to be bringing those to you. Today, I wanted to share a little bit with you about what we've been up to over this summer when you and I haven't been talking, but I have been having live events with my Patreon supporters and we have introduced this new monthly Live zoom event called ask an adoptee therapist.
And I wanted to share some clips with you from some of your favorite therapists who have been on adoptees on many times, and they're asking, answering questions from listeners. So I have compiled a few of our best conversations. Not even, I shouldn't even say that. Just a few of the great questions we've had and talked about with a therapist.
There have been so, so many. It was really hard to pick what to bring you. So we have Lesli Johnson with us, Pam Cordano, Marta Sierra, all expert adoptee therapists and giving their best advice to us. They are not your therapist. And of course, this is just for education and entertainment purposes. But I hope that no matter what they're addressing, we talk about relationships and grief and what our picture perfect reunion might look like or a successful reunion might look like.
I think all of these things were going to be helpful to you. Let's listen in.
Here is a listener's submitted question from our recent September Ask An adoptee Therapist with Pam Cordano. I'm grieving the loss of my adoptive father who passed away very recently. Although my dad and I weren't especially close, the enormity of this loss has surprised me.
Do you have any recommendations for working through the loss of a parent as an adoptee or any resources that you may have found helpful in this situation?
Pam Cordano: Well, I just think that even when a loss can be hard to understand or explain, if you weren't that close to, let's say an adoptive parent or a birth parent for that matter, and then they die and, there's a big reaction, bigger than expected reaction. I think that number one, trust that reaction, that the reaction is you know, it's you happening. It's you know, you're, there's something happening inside of you. I don't really believe in these over reactions here. You know, I think that any reaction is the right reaction.
And I'm just really tired of pathologizing any of this actually, you know, I just feel okay, you know, like we're sad, or this hit is hitting us bigger than we would expect. And then I think that. You know, with all losses, I used to work for hospice also with part of this whole cancer thing. I did that all losses seem to, you know, build on each other.
And so, losses are can be very complicated, whether it's break up deaths of people or adoptive family members or birth family members, even if we don't know them very well and changing forms when our, you know, kids and our kids are home and then they're not home anymore, that I was a wreck when my kids went to college.
I was just, I felt like I was losing them forever. I had no perspective. They had more perspective than I did on that. So the first thing is to trust it, to trust the reaction. And I don't think we get those messages a lot of places. I think that it can be hard for people to understand us on the outside of why we're having such a big reaction or, you know, pet loss too.
And then, you know, I think we need to find people, maybe a therapist, but people that can listen to us and be with us without trying to change us. Without trying to minimize it or put into perspective for us, but just let us not know why we're having this big reaction and just be with us. And that goes again to having somebody with us so that we're not alone as we're processing something hard.
It's healthier than trying to do it all by oneself. And feeling like one has to do it all by oneself.
One thing I learned working for hospice is that regular therapists are not the same as grief therapists. And there's really a big difference between therapy and grief therapy. And with grief therapy, the therapist does a lot of just listening, hearing stories, hearing what's coming up, and asking questions to just kind of fill out whatever a person is feeling in the moment without, without sort of attaching it to the person's sort of whole life, you know, like it's not a symptom, you know, it's a whole experience itself.
Haley Radke: I was also thinking of, when you, I think trusting your own reaction feels so freeing because I was thinking of someone I know when their adoptive parent passed and they were estranged and I was like, is this going to be a big thing for them or not or whatever?
And I think there's some sense of guilt that it wasn't a bigger deal. Are we supposed to fall apart? Is that, you know. It's unfair that we put those things on ourselves.
Pam Cordano: Right. Right. Cause I. I mean, I think that sometimes we just feel blank because the original loss was so, it's so unlanguaged, it's unprocessed, it's we don't, it's just too big and then, next loss has come.
Like I was really close to my grandmother and she died when I was 18. I didn't shed one tear. I just was like a robot and I just don't think that I was ready to let, I don't think I really, it's ever come up. I just haven't, I was more just in keep it together, second function kind of mode and it can feel like a blank instead of.
So I think we go both ways over blanked and over, you know, I don't say over, but big responses. And it's hard to understand when we weren't that close to a certain person.
Haley Radke: Here is a listener submitted question from our August Ask an Adoptee Therapist with the answer coming from Marta Sierra. If as an adoptee you are able to plan an ideal first reunion.
With first family, mother, father, married, full adult siblings, how would you want to set it up? The mother is open about having PTSD from relinquishment. Siblings didn't know about adoptee until after contact with the parents. All have been welcoming though cautious, some more than others. Everyone wants to meet face to face.
Geography is an obstacle that makes planning well in advance necessary. Ooh, set us up. Perfect scenario. What's that? Or help us temper our expectations.
Marta Isabella Sierra: Yes, I love that. One question. That's, of course, individual, but I'm going to post it. Anyways. What does a successful, I'm going to take the whole word perfect out of it, but what does a successful reunion trip look like?
I think we might all define that a little bit differently. So the clearer we can be about how we want to leave after and how we want to feel like leaving an interaction can actually give us a lot of information about what we're hoping for happens within it.
And I think the most successful experience has to honor everyone involved as best as possible with all of our very different experiences that we're bringing in and very different needs. So conversations before. I mean, I think my like simplest answer is communication, but communicating both what you think you might need. Starting a conversation, whether that's individually with everybody that's going or even in some kind of group chat around, hey, what does everybody need personally when you feel overwhelmed?
When you feel really emotional? What do you want us to know about that? Oh, you know, so that you can start to share a little bit about that and think through that as far as like lodging and where I think all of these have to do with what would make it successful for everybody as a group, but also individuals. Is there cultural pieces in there?
You know, I know with international, transracial adoption reunions, sometimes there's a lot of pressure to stay with your family in their home and so being able to advocate for, I'm actually not ready to do that. I'm going to book an Airbnb and, you know, let's, tell me more about what, you know, what are you sad that I might miss out on if I don't stay with you?
Oh, I really wanted to cook you breakfast. Okay, well, I can come over for breakfast. I can get up early and come do that. So, trying to make space for again, everybody's differing needs and differing wants maybe asking everybody what's the thing you want to do the most or the thing that you're most excited about. Is it eating together?
Is it going to the movies? Is it downtime where you sit on the floor and talk, right? Everyone has different stuff that they're dreaming about going into this. So to know that's kind of like a family vacation, right? What's most important to you? What do you do? You want to leave like definitely having done and so the more you can openly communicate about that before, you're also like building pathways of communication that you can rely on in the situation if things are getting rough.
Haley Radke: What are some things that you personally would build in for safety? Like I love the idea of having your own space you can go to.
When I heard, everybody's coming, I was like, huh, is that how I'd want my first meeting to be? Would be with everybody. Do I only want to meet my parents the first day? And then, you know, like those kind of things. Did you have any thoughts on that?
Marta Isabella Sierra: Yes, exactly. I think, you know, again, right. If you don't want to consent to everybody at once, that's something you have to speak up for.
But if we're talking about like a multiple day experience, there can be time in there for that one on one connecting and maybe for a party in there somewhere where everybody gets to go. Right. But Again, in that pre communicating would be a great time to say, I'd love to have a dinner or a meal, maybe one on one with my two siblings and my parent that are going to be there.
Can we schedule that? I want to be able to connect one on one as well as have these, make some group memories together.
Haley Radke: My big tip is you got to get all the photos you want and don't be awkward about asking for those, because you may want something tangible later to help you remember. I don't know.
For me, that was really important. I literally have one picture with my mother. That's all I'm going to get.
Marta Isabella Sierra: Also just the last thing, you know, do you want somebody with you from outside? Do you want a support person with you and who do you want that to be? I think when you just said that I time traveled back to this morning that I almost had a complete and total meltdown and I'm so glad that my friend was there that morning and could just even non verbally tell me that I needed to calm down.
I was starting to sweat. I was so anxious. My sister was super late. It's not important the story, but it was really helpful to have somebody there that could just look at me and communicate with me. But also that I knew could see that I was overwhelmed and I knew that it mattered to her when I was having this moment.
Not that my family didn't care either, but I just was feeling invisible. I went to that adoptee invisible place of not being important and to have somebody who could just touch my arm gently and be like, everything's going to be okay, was so clutch. I think that could have been a moment of a real explosion if I hadn't had someone there to ground me.
So. Yeah, support people can be a great resource.
Haley Radke: And if I guess if they're not able to like actually come with you, if you know, okay, my friend is on speed dial for emergency.
Marta Isabella Sierra: On call support person is also very valuable.
Haley Radke: We've got several listener submitted questions about relationships from our July Ask an Adoptee Therapist episode with Lesli Johnson.
Any suggestions on how to move forward in a relationship when the non adopted spouse did not, does not recognize or acknowledge the effects of adoption? Sorry for my paper noises. And number two, I am struggling to stay married at this point. I feel like my marriage was built around the person I used to be.
And I know that I'm a different person now, and I don't want to go back to being the old person. He is trying to be understanding and make space for what I'm going through, but I often question if there is real hope. I don't necessarily want to throw it all away, but I also don't want to try to be the person I was before and I feel like that expectation is there. I guess my question is, how do marriages work after coming out of the fog? It's complicated, but what are the key elements to success or failure? Trying harder and good intentions don't feel enough.
Okay, Lesli those are big ones. What are your thoughts?
Lesli A. Johnson: Those are big ones. Yeah. And I hear this a lot. The first piece is your partner willing to. Listen to a podcast, read a book, read an article, right? There was a recent article in the New Yorker that I think is a good one. You know, is the partner willing to read about the adoptee experience? So I'm assuming this person is telling her partner about what's happening, but are they willing to, you know, again, listen to a few of the podcast on Adoptees On. Yeah. Will you read this article? Can we read this article together? Right? Can we listen to a podcast together? Can you know, I think that it's is your partner curious about your internal world and your life experience? And if that isn't something that's happening in a couple, in both ways, right? You know, curiosity and openness and what's happening with you, then the relationship may not work right? We can't force our partners to try to understand us, but we, I think we hope and expect that there would be a willingness to have that curiosity. Someone just wrote in the chat that her partner binged.
Haley Radke: Oh, binged Adoptees On. Had a lot of discussions about the episodes together. Found that really helpful. That's nice. Thank you. I was trying to think of an example that you could, if our partner was now something and we were trying to learn about it, I'm trying to think of an example and I can't even think of one.
Lesli A. Johnson: Right. Thanks. Well, had an early loss, maybe, or had something traumatic happen in childhood and had not ever talked about it and then realized it did have an impact on their sense of trust or safety. I mean, there's, there could be similarities like that.
Haley Radke: I don't know. Do you have recommendations of- this is a huge life decision, deciding if you're going to depart from your partner? What are some things that people should be doing before to make sure they're doing like all the work for themselves to make this make a good decision here?
Lesli A. Johnson: Yeah, well, I mean, again, bringing up, will you please listen to this? Will you please read this with me? And if you're bringing some, this is my opinion, but if you're bringing something kind of as, that's not a hard task to ask a partner to listen to an hour long podcast or a two hour long podcast or read an article and begin a conversation, right?
And if the partner is saying no, there may be more than just this person isn't getting it. You know, isn't curious about my, my being adopted. There might be more to that. Therapy. Absolutely. I'm working with an adoption informed therapist and or an IFS therapist and internal family systems therapist can be helpful.
Haley Radke: Okay. Thank you. The last in this relationship set is I'm just beginning to be interested in possibly, maybe starting to date again. I've been feeling closed off and would appreciate tips for how to proceed with caution while remaining open hearted. Is this as hard for adoptees to balance as it is for me?
Thank you.
Lesli A. Johnson: Yeah, I think relationships are often difficult for people whose, you know, earliest attachments was severed. Right. So it creates, and then when I say the earliest attachment to our birth mother, right, the person that was supposed to care for us and be there for us. And when that happens early on in a person's life, the person grows up to develop a sense of mistrust. It's not safe to trust people. And then how does that translate into relationships? Right? Issues around I need someone, but also, you know, needing feels really bad. Right? So we develop these insecure, anxious or avoidant attachment styles.
And so really understanding your attachment style can be really helpful in relationships. I mean, there's a book called Attached that's a good one.
And there's also if you just Google attachment styles, there's lots and lots of information. So it's secure attachment, insecure, avoidant, insecure, anxious and disorganized. And usually adoptees fall into a category of anxious or avoidant. And it doesn't mean that we don't want a relationship or we don't want to be in relationship with other. It just means because of our circumstances, we developed a style based on our relationship with our caregivers.
So, and that we also, because of the beautiful gift of neuroplasticity, we can change our brains in adulthood so that we can have a secure, like it what's called an earned secure attachment and that's through relationships with friends, relationships with therapists and also a tuning to ourselves in that kind of parent- child way, like taking care of our younger parts and we can have that more, a sense of more security and safety in the world.
Haley Radke: Early in 2023, we had Mary Gauthier join us on Adoptees On, and if you're listening when this episode goes on live on September 25th, we are having our Adoptees Only Book Club with Mary discussing her book Saved by a Song. And here is a clip of us discussing her album, The Foundling, and then her subsequent writing of Saved by a Song.
This is from episode 245, and I hope you'll join us for a book club with Mary on Monday.
If you're listening after that date has already passed, the audio recording of our book club will be available in Patreon for supporters of the podcast, so you can also catch it there.
I've read your book. It's so good. Loved Saved by a Song, The Art and Healing Power of Songwriting. And in it, you share, you know, that you toured with The Foundling and you played the songs and as you just said, right, it's it healed something in you to write them, but just. Playing it over and over.
I mean, you're bringing up the most traumatic thing that has happened in an adoptee's life, right? The separation from our genetic connections. And what was it like to, you know, decide to kind of put that away and decide you're not going to perform those songs anymore, but then write your story on paper for, again, the masses to read?
Mary Gauthier: What a great question. This is awesome. This type of questioning is so beautiful and I don't get it very often.
So writing it into songs that I sang for about a year and then I really don't sing anymore was part of my healing. It was naming it, claiming it, owning it, and then doing the best I can to let it go. This happened. It shaped me. I was wounded, but I don't have to spend the rest of my life limping. What I can do is find strength in the telling.
And so I don't need to tell it over and over again. I need to tell it till it makes sense to me and then let it go. And then I was asked to write this book and writing long form around the story was a different experience than writing songs. In the songs some of it was fictionalized.
I didn't feel compelled to have to write exactly what happened. In fact, a song that does that is usually pretty boring. So in songs the fictionalization freed me in some ways to make it a story about all of us, you know? In the book, I got into the particulars of my own story because it was partially a memoir, and that liberated me as well.
So that I could look back over the story of my life and say, Well, if that hadn't happened, this wouldn't have happened, and if this wouldn't have happened, I wouldn't have been given this thing that I really cherish and love. I think that writing it long form really was an addition to the healing of writing the songs around it.
It alchemizes it in a different way. I think if we're drowning, we've gotta find a lot of different kind of life jackets. And for me, they're, both of the art forms, long form and songs were were driven by this thing inside of me that needed to be shown the light. The healing light of truth.
It really strengthened me. It took some of the weight out of the sorrow.
Haley Radke: It is so good to be back. It is so good to think of all the conversations that we have shared over the years on Adoptees On and on the adoptees Patreon events. Like I just feel really thankful for this community that we have built together to amplify adoptee voices and adoptees spaces, and thank you for being a part of that.
Normally I would be back a little sooner with new episodes. So I just want to let you know, we're back. We're flailing, but here and I have had a really interesting September so far. And you know, we don't need to go into all the things, but I'm really glad that things are sort of calming down and we're just ready to go with fall 2023 episodes. I'm so glad you're here. Thank you for listening to Adoptee Voices and Adoptee Stories. And if you want to hear more of these things, please consider supporting the show. It is literally how it continues to exist in this world. AdopteesOn.Com slash community. And you can join us at these amazing Ask an Adoptee Therapist events.
Ask your questions anytime, adopteeson. com slash ask, and we'll include them in an audio recording for patrons. So lots of good stuff over there. Join us for a book club, all the things. I love getting to hang out with you guys on zoom and really hearing from you what's going on in your lives. And I've built so many friendships over there. I just feel so grateful. So thank you for being here. Thank you for being a part of the community for helping adoptees on exist. And let's talk again next Friday.
