262 Healing Series: Difficult Relationships
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Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/262
Haley Radke: This podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing stated on it, either by its hosts or any guests, is to be construed as psychological, medical, or legal advice.
You're listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. I'm Haley Radke. Welcome, friend. We have a Special episode in our healing series today, where we talk to adoptees who are also therapists. And I would say today's episode is kind of like a little bit of a tune up for anyone who has experienced or is in a period of estrangement or separation or on a break from a close relationship, whether it's adoptive parents bio parents, somebody close in your life. And we're kind of talking through some of the things people don't talk about and some things to consider. So I think this will be really helpful for you if you are experiencing any of those things.
And our guest Marta Sierra also talks through some things that might be impacting your life and you just don't even realize it till you hear her say the thing. I don't know. Every time I hear her talk, I always have little light bulbs go off. So this is definitely one I will be really listening to, to make sure I get everything out of it and that it like sticks for me.
Before we get started, I want to. Personally invite you to join our Patreon adoptee community over on adopteeson.com/community, which helps support you and also the show to support more adoptees around the world. Okay, let's listen in.
I am so pleased to welcome back to Adoptee on Marta Sierra. Hello Marta.
Marta Isabella Sierra: Hi Haley.
Haley Radke: I think you're one of the most, how do I say this? One of the most commonly hosted therapists on our show. One of our favorites. And we've talked about a lot of hard things in the past. We talked through estrangement attachment issues.
Is loyalty a trauma response? Lots of heavy things. And we're just gonna keep going.
Marta Isabella Sierra: Yes.
Haley Radke: We're gonna keep going on that path today. So... One of the things I've noticed a lot of people in our community struggling with are these interactions in difficult relationships, whether it is we're still in relationship in a challenging spot, or we have chosen estrangement, but that's still taking up space in our brain.
What do you think about that?
Marta Isabella Sierra: Absolutely. I think when you brought this topic to me to revisit, it's about how does it stay alive inside of us? I heard you kind of asking that question and how do we tend to that? Both maybe in action, but also in response to the parts of us that are still very much alive in the dynamic, no matter where it currently sits.
Haley Radke: You told us this thing that was so wise that I've just like kind of clung on to it for a while. That you think adoptees have an internal mandate to put others first, before ourselves. And if you listen back to that, people, I think you'll understand why.
So I don't know if you want to speak to that a little bit, but then I wonder how that plays out when we're still in this, whether we're setting boundaries and continuing to do labor of holding things together, or we're out and we're just having these internal thoughts still of the challenging relationship
Marta Isabella Sierra: Yeah, I think the self abandonment just runs so deep. And it's not something where we set a boundary and then that feeling that urge to abandon ourselves to make things easier for the other people.
I don't think that goes away. Even something that can feel as final as ending a relationship or severing ties, there's still going to be moments where that decision is either reflected back to us or triggered in media that we're watching or a friend is going through something similar, even like distantly adjacent.
And we and it kind of like trips that wire in our nervous system that makes us go well, should I abandon myself now? Maybe now I should do it. Maybe now! You know, like that part is almost like Kind of my image right now is like doing double dutch in our mind like it's ready to jump in and abandon at any moment.
Haley Radke: Oh Geez. When you word it like that then of course, no, of course, we're not gonna make that decision, but that is what we're doing. Okay.
Marta Isabella Sierra: You know and again, I think depending on your experience in your adoptive family system or whatever caregivers you were around growing up, if that self abandonment was rewarded in any way, and I even mean rewarded as far as like people left you alone for a couple of hours. If it was rewarded in any way like that, again, like we have, I think to shift any of this, we have to come from a place of compassion that like this abandonment served an important survival purpose. And yeah. It's not doing that any more.
Haley Radke: Okay. I think we'll probably get to some tools later. I have another question that is kind of related because I almost just want to bring it to you. Okay. Our attention that I don't think we realize and there's not enough acknowledgement around this that we're doing extra invisible labor carrying around these relationships with us.
And as you said, like anything could just be a reminder here and there and. There is a weight that carrying this, I don't think we're acknowledging. And I'm wondering if you have thoughts on how we become more aware of this and, in hopefully inducing self compassion. Because if we're going to count the cost of maintaining these relationships or having these triggers in our lives, how do we be kind to ourselves? And be like, okay, of course we're having these reactions, of course, and what can we do about it?
Marta Isabella Sierra: Yeah I loved the way that you articulated that emotional labor, Haley. That we're always in this state of managing our anxiety. Really, our fear, our terror is what I hear you talking about, like this way that, you know, I think I've said this definitely a million times in life, but definitely I think sometimes on here too. Like we just, I've never met an adoptee that couldn't stand to calm down and that includes myself, like we're just, we just vibrate on this other level.
And so how do we, yes, A) not make it a problem. That's there, that's happening, that it makes sense that we carry a lot more fear than your average person. And that's going to be about you know what to do.
And that even after we decide quote unquote what to do and maybe take an action step that doesn't necessarily soothe that one part that's afraid. It might soothe a lot of other parts and there may be relief and you can be crystal clear that you've made the right decision for yourself and these younger parts of us still feel afraid and still need attention.
Because its so difficult for us to let go. Because letting go, the separation was so traumatic and so these young parts still believe that holding on and squeezing and refusing to let go is the best way. And it's just not always the best way.
Haley Radke: I have lots of friends that are adopted. Which I feel very thankful and grateful that I have that in my life. I know not everybody has that privilege.
And recently I asked someone, because I was kind of feeling like alone. Oh my gosh, I can't believe I keep perseverating on this. But I asked someone, I was like, well, how often do you think about your adoptive mother? You know, kind of, and she was like, are you being facetious? I'm like, no I genuinely want to know.
She's- every day. Every day, Halye. Like, why are you? Of course I still think about her.
Is this
Marta Isabella Sierra: a trap?
Haley Radke: Yeah, exactly. And I was like, oh okay, so it isn't just me.
Marta Isabella Sierra: Yeah.
Haley Radke: And yeah, so, I don't know, maybe, is there anything you want to say to us about that? It's, that feels normal.
Marta Isabella Sierra: Yes. I absolutely think it's just not within our control. Our thoughts are not within our control.
I saw like a funny Instagram that was like, what I need is to just not have thoughts. And I was like, yes! Wouldn't that be incredible to just not have thoughts? But we don't have control over our thoughts. And nor our dreams, you know. For me in estrangement, some years out, like that is still a place where they enter my consciousness with or without my consent.
And. It can be really hard to wake up from that, literally. And I know it's just going to be something I have feelings about for the rest of my life. So, yes, what can be gained when we radically accept that we're going to just never stop having feelings about these people and these relationships?
That anybody that was classified to us as family. And where there's been pain or distance or hurt or abuse or neglect or abandonment, we may never fully make peace with that. And doesn't that make so much sense?
Haley Radke: Yes, right. It does make sense just in the nature of how our society is structured. Of course, we're going to have constant reminders of maternal or paternal figures and we're and of course, if you were a parent yourself, seeing your kids do things and that will remind you of when you did something and it just there's just no way to sever our brain from those triggers.
God, what was that movie? That Jim Carrey movie? Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind? Can you like erase this whole relationship out of your brain? Yeah. How about that being tempting?
Marta Isabella Sierra: And even in the fantasy sci fi world of that film, right? The answer was no, you can't. You cannot pull someone out of your experience by the roots.
What happened to us left imprints.
Haley Radke: All right, so let's go to some practical kind of tool things. I think I shared this with you privately, but I had this dinner recently catching up with some old friends who I haven't seen for 20 years. And naturally, when you're my age a couple of them had lost parents already.
And so then they were asking about mine, because they all knew them from childhood.
Marta Isabella Sierra: Right.
Haley Radke: And I shared, I was like, oh I'm not in touch with them right now, and relayed whatever info I knew about them. And one of them was like, "oh that's really disappointing. I'm sorry to hear that." If you knew the context, like I'm not just like adding that in, it was very much, I felt it very much as like a shaming sort of, Oh my gosh, I'm so disappointed in you.
When they had no idea of the context or all the work and decision making that led me to that choice for my own emotional safety. Okay, so can't prevent the person from saying the thing to us necessarily. What do I say back in the moment? Or is there something I could have said to prevent maybe, her saying something shaming like that to me?
Marta Isabella Sierra: I do think this is so much about how we frame things. And I, you know, again, you're not going to get in front of every single comment that someone has for you. And yeah, I would frame it at, you know, and when this comes up for me, I often say, you know, after a lot of pain and a lot of therapy and a lot of soul searching, I finally was able to do the best thing for me, for my health and for my mental health. And I do not have those people in my life anymore, and it's been so incredible that the people that love me have supported me in that.
Then they don't really need to get it. You're very clear in that language, right? This was something that was A) very hard and painful for me, but also is for my best interest. And it invites them to get on board.
Haley Radke: Or at least don't share your opinion with me.
I like that. I chose to just let it go. I, for me, it was someone who I'm likely not going to be seeing them again, maybe forever, or maybe 20 years from now. So.
Marta Isabella Sierra: Which you're always weighing that who do I do the emotional label labor for? Right? Yeah. You know, another thing you could say is what's been painful in disclosing is like, sometimes people are more worried about their feelings about this than mine.
Haley Radke: Which again, I guess, I'm more worried about their feelings than mine. Okay. Okay. I'm starting to get it. Should I get this already?
It takes so much time.
Marta Isabella Sierra: It reminds me almost of, it takes me back to reunion also, like I would have to give those disclaimers immediately if someone asks like, Oh, I heard you found your mom or you know, whatever. The first thing out of my mouth was usually yes- and what's been upsetting as this has been happening is that people's first question is about how is this for my adoptive parents, and I will not be fielding questions on that topic.
Haley Radke: Yes.
Marta Isabella Sierra: Don't come here. With that don't bring it to me. I'm not having it.
Haley Radke: Oh Okay. I don't know if- it's feel like it's all the tools that you teach us, we literally have to practice it, have something that you've already decided you can say and repeat.
Marta Isabella Sierra: Yes.
Haley Radke: And like I'm not comfortable talking about that right now. I don't know. We got to pull that out too, I think.
Marta Isabella Sierra: Yes, exactly. Of just, you know, exactly. I, just a no boundary is great. And again, if you feel super uncomfortable with that, getting support around that, around how to say no. How to embrace no as a complete sentence. And workshopping some of these conversations. I think, again, like they're not always going to go perfect.
And sometimes we walk away wondering what we could have said differently. And that can be great stuff to workshop with a therapist or a coach or a trusted friend who's maybe more fierce about their boundaries than you are. And get some of that language. Because again, when our first language was self abandonment, wrapping our mouths around some of these sentences, even, feels so foreign.
Haley Radke: Yes. Okay, so we are choosing ourselves first, learning self compassion. This is just going to be an ongoing practice. Thanks for the good news.
Marta Isabella Sierra: I always bring you great news, Haley.
Haley Radke: Always! I bring you good tidings of great joy. Sorry, that's a little, that's a little Christmas reference for anybody. Anyone religious?
Okay, I'm, how do I put this? So, I know we are talking about, we're both estranged from our adoptive parents. People are making choices around this, whether they want to continue reunion, if it's been challenging. All kinds of our relationships can be going sort of this way. I hope that people are able to get support from a therapist and make these choices in a healthy way.
Also, if it's healthy, pivot and hopefully maintain relationships that they want to maintain. This is not a, like, how to estrange convo. But I do have a question for you.
One of the things I wish I would have done before I went ahead with the decision to estrange was setting up some boundaries and safety in my life with other people who were also connected to me and my adoptive parents. Because there have been some things that have kind of happened over the last couple years that maybe I could have prevented with some conversations.
So do you have ideas about that? Things that we can think about? And how to do that in a safe way?
Marta Isabella Sierra: Yeah, I think again, communication and boundaries, anyone that you're going to keep, try to keep in your life that has a connection to whoever you've estranged from, including, I love that you included biofamilies. I have some estrangement in my bio family as well. That you're being really clear about your expectations and giving the person that. An opportunity to opt in or opt out of that dynamic with you, depending on whether or not they can hold that. Right.
So whether that's, you know, I'm really wanting to stay in relationship with you. And these are my needs around privacy, around social media boundaries, around, yeah, sharing where I live or whatever pieces are really important to you. Making sure those are clearly communicated. And then of course, like responding to boundary violations if they happen. Then you have another decision to make. There is going to inherently be risk of staying in relationship with anyone that's in relationship with them.
Again, bringing the good news. I'm so sorry. I think there's. An emotional risk beyond these boundary concerns. Right? We carry so much around feeling unseen. And I think when we make these hard choices, it's after years of feeling unseen in our hurt. And so another question, is it safe for you to stay in relationship with someone who just by nature of their relationship with these people are essentially co- signing and by standing the behavior?
Haley Radke: Yeah, it sounds like there's a lot to kind of consider when you are doing that boundary setting. If we're going to stay in relationship, please do not be in touch with them. Whatever that might look like, and then sometimes it's, it is more close in. It's more close in, and they are not able to sever, nor, or maybe don't want to sever communications.
Marta Isabella Sierra: It's again, this self worth piece of I am deserving of safety. And If you can't create that for me, if you can't co create that for me, if you're not going to protect me, then I don't know if I can have a relationship with you.
Haley Radke: You know what's so interesting to me about that comment is that one of the pieces that sort of held me back from doing it sooner was my children. And my psychologist was like, Okay, so not safe to be in relationship with you, but safe to be in relationship with your children? Right? Like major side eye. What are you thinking?
And it's like all these, again, societal expectations of- this is what you do. You let your kids have a relationship with their grandparents or whatever it may be.
Marta Isabella Sierra: Yes.
Haley Radke: So. Yeah, and then there's these extraneous things where it's like, Oh, is it okay for them to send Christmas cards? Is it okay for them? You know. I made this really painful, critically well thought out, with support from experts in my life, decision, but somehow that isn't giving you enough information?
I do have to spell it out. I have to spell it out and say what my expectations are. Okay. Well, I guess we just have to keep having hard conversations. That is the good news that you're giving us.
Marta Isabella Sierra: Or again, if those conversations are costing to you much, then you have the option, you have the option to pull away.
Haley Radke: Yeah. Yeah. But if we don't have those conversations, if I'm not setting up the boundary, that's a me problem. How are they supposed to know? There is something where I haven't told them, please don't give this information to- because I was assuming that they wouldn't, you know? But I can't do that.
I can't make that assumption. They're not in my head.
Marta Isabella Sierra: You can't make that assumption. And there are people, it does exist, for people to understand and protect you without needing to be asked. So thats something that's coming up is almost the way we're talking about it, Like everyone needs this explained to them. And I have to challenge that because some people don't. It's almost like some people who have never even considered adoption trauma quote unquote as a topic, as like a whole. You know this whole world that we live in, still inherently are like, yeah, why are white people buying black and brown babies?
Like they also think it's strange, without having turned it over, without having that explained to them. So again, we're back to worth, right? Like you, there are people in this world that will protect you without needing to understand or have explained to them what happened to you.
Haley Radke: Yes.
Marta Isabella Sierra: And you're worthy of that.
Haley Radke: Okay. And I love I'm glad you did call that out. Because I do have people in my life that are like that. So, yeah. Okay, lots of things to think about.
The last kind of topic I want to cover is I think probably common for a lot of us who haven't quite gotten all the way there to accepting that we can put ourselves first.
So there is this nagging feeling over time: should I continue to be estranged? Has enough time passed? Maybe they've already dealt with the issues. Maybe I'm healed up more, so I won't be as sensitive. Or those tender spots won't be so tender.
When you're talking to an adopted person who has chosen estrangement and then is: huh, should I open the door again?
What are some things we should be looking at in ourselves to make these decisions?
Marta Isabella Sierra: I mean, A) I would wanna go to the fears. What are you afraid happens, you know, if you don't do these things, if you don't go back? What are the fears and really sitting with those and then seeing what's the data around that?
Is there any evidence that it will be different, right? Again, honoring that our younger parts are never going to stop wishing that it was different. And is that where this is coming from? Or is it coming from a totally different place inside of you? Is it, you know, why now? I would also ask myself, my parts what, why now? What's going on? What?
And then practically like outside of yourself, I would say, without concrete data that there has been change, I would not reengage. And that might not be a popular opinion. But that is my opinion. That without serious data that there has been a change, I don't know why it would be safe to go back in for more.
Haley Radke: Even if we've worked on ourselves and grown.... I think we've talked about that, this in a lot of our healing series conversations with you and other therapists, but like when you have grown and worked on yourself and, I'm making hand movements where people can't see, but if other people aren't working on themselves and growing, you're growing further and further away over time.
So even if we have strengthened ourselves, that's no comment on where they are and what work they've done or not done.
Marta Isabella Sierra: Right. And it may ultimately mean that you're less compatible than ever to be in relationship with them. Even if your younger parts don't get triggered in the way they used to. Still, is this someone that you want to be in relationship with?
Just person to person.
Haley Radke: Yeah.
Marta Isabella Sierra: And then we're back to grieving like the fantasy of what we wanted it to be, what we hoped it could be, and hopefully seeking community in that grief.
Haley Radke: I'm friends with someone who's been estranged for like so long, and they just, how do I put this? They just feel to me like they never think about going back.
Do you think that 10 years from now, 20 years from now, that we will? feel differently, that we will not have those like nagging sort of reminders? Or for me, like the little guilt niggling kind of feeling. I think it'll go away in time.
Marta Isabella Sierra: I do think it's so individual and so dependent on, you know, what else you've built in your life, what else you have going on.
And again, different phases, there might always be waves of wondering, waves of guilt. I do think the more healing we do the less we question ourselves
Haley Radke: And the more like skills we have to talk to our younger parts and self soothe and all of those kinds of things I guess.
Marta Isabella Sierra: Yeah
Haley Radke: Any other thoughts or things you think we need to hear around this? Like how to maintain a separation while still, I don't know, having the feelings?
Marta Isabella Sierra: Again, you know, I can't get through an episode without saying, community is the medicine. Just don't go through this alone. Don't go through it alone.
There are other people navigating estrangement, hurting, grieving, fighting for boundaries, struggling around language. You don't have to go through it alone.
And so whether that's a Facebook group or however you want to seek your community around estrangement. You know, and it's not just our community, that piece too, there are connections around this.
I think I might have shared in our first estrangement episode. The first time I helped a client navigate estrangement was not an adoptee. The first time I was, you know, support and witness to someone severing ties with an abusive caregiver, it was not an adoptee. So we are also not the only ones hurting in this way.
And not the only ones navigating this. So the more we feel like the only person, it just intensifies the emotions. So just don't be alone in it.
Haley Radke: Yes, thank you. Appreciate that. Okay, where can we connect with you online Marta?
Marta Isabella Sierra: You can email me at MartaSierraLmhc@gmail.com
Haley Radke: Perfect. And on Adoptees on Patreon, you are a regular guest on our Ask an Adoptee Therapist event, which is so fun. And we talk about hard things there too. And you've coached us through some tricky situations there. And we have one next week if people are listening to this when it drops in real time.
And then there'll be more with you this fall and into next year. And we're really just so thankful for the wisdom that you share with us. Thanks, Marta.
Marta Isabella Sierra: Also, if you're listening in real time, Adoption Mosaic has a speaker series panel this month on October 14th around estrangement, and I will be on the panel.
Haley Radke: Okay, that is like tomorrow, if you're listening on real time. We will link to that. And I know Adoption Mosaic also has recordings of their events. So if you have missed it, then you can check their website for a recording of that. I think a couple of our podcast friends are on that panel. So great. Great.
Marta Isabella Sierra: Cool.
Haley Radke: Thank you. Thank you so much, Marta.
Marta Isabella Sierra: Thanks, haley.
I don't want you to miss out on our Ask an Adoptee Therapist events. They're really special because we have a whole hour together. A part of it is recorded, and I will ask questions to Marta, kind of like in our conversation today, except for they are listener submitted. And so folks get to ask kind of whatever they want privately, anonymously, and our therapist gives their thoughts.
And then when we are done recording, it's usually between 30 and 45 minutes, the last bit of our hour is kind of a live discussion with our guest therapist. So you can ask for clarification on the questions. You can ask your question with details and not recorded. So it's just for whoever is there live to hear.
And I have learned so much. We only started doing them earlier this year and they have been so, so valuable for me and my listeners already. They've been thanking me for having the event and people are really excited about it. So I just want to make sure you know about it so you don't miss out.
And all of the audio that we record in the first part is released the following Monday on Adoptees Off Script, which is our Patreon weekly podcast. So even if you can't be there live, then you can hear the audio recording later and still get all the good advice and wisdom.
Okay, so please check that out, adopteeson.com/community. And we have links to our live events in our calendar on the website. There is a scholarship tab. So if you are just not able to join Patreon right now, but you want to come to one of our live events and you are an adopted person, you can click on the scholarship to apply and yeah, please come.
We would love to have you. There are scholarships because of our Patreon supporters and this show survives, because of Patreon supporters. So we're really thankful for your support. Okay. Thank you so much for listening. Let's talk again next Friday.
