27 [Special] Live Recordings from the Indiana Adoptee Network Conference
/Transcript
Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/27
You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. This is Season Two, episode 7, a special episode. I'm your host, Haley Radke. This episode is different than anything I've ever done before. This is a compilation of live interviews that I did recently at the Indiana Adoptee Network Conference, called Building Bridges.
I talked with several different adoptees and just had some popcorn questions for them. -Do they listen to the podcast? -What are their thoughts about adoption?
We talk about a couple different topics, so you'll hear those. Those are really short interviews. And then our longest interview is with a mother and daughter (who were at the conference) I got to meet.
When you listen, I hope you'll feel like I do. I feel like I was on some sacred ground when they were speaking to each other. I was really moved and I hope you'll have the same experience as I did. And because there's so many guests in this show today, what I'm going to do is I'm going to put all their social media contact information in the show notes so you can find those on adopteeson.com.
Okay, let's get started. Our first interview is with Ruth. She's actually a Patreon supporter, so I was so excited to meet her, give her a giant hug. And she has such a sweet spirit. Let's listen in to Ruth.
Haley Radke: So do you listen to Adoptees On?
Ruth Rawlin Tacoma: Absolutely. That's my favorite podcast. I think I told you right at the beginning that I kind of binge listened for a while.
Haley Radke: Oh yeah.
Ruth Rawlin Tacoma: And caught up with them. So now I have to go back and re-listen.
Haley Radke: Not trying to fish for compliments. That's very nice. Okay, so you were just saying that you don't know how you feel about adoption?
Ruth Rawlin Tacoma: Yeah, I think that's one of the things I realized yesterday. I kind of had that moment where I thought, I don't really know how I feel about adoption at all.
I had a really good adoption as far as that goes, but I can't figure out, I can't reconcile in my mind if… Closed adoption, I don't think is a good thing. I'm not sure open adoption is a good thing. I'm just not sure what I feel about adoption anymore. Previously, if you had asked me a year ago, I would've thought it was an awesome thing.
Haley Radke: And you're searching right now?
Ruth Rawlin Tacoma: I am. I'm searching, just kind of at the beginning. I haven't made contact or anything yet. I'm getting close.
Haley Radke: Do you have anything that you would want to say to your family of origin, if you could?
Ruth Rawlin Tacoma: I don't know what I would actually want to say to them. I think I just have a million questions for them. And again, I can't quite reconcile in my mind, you know, meeting somebody that is my blood relative and then just having a list of questions. I can't— I'm having a hard time distinguishing between a relationship with somebody and just finding out information. And I don't, I'm not even a hundred percent sure which one I want.
Haley Radke: That's profound, right? Oh my goodness. What do you wish non-adopted people understood about being adopted?
Ruth Rawlin Tacoma: I wish they understood that I have no record of who I am and how big of a deal that is. I wish they knew that the things they take for granted, I don't have. And even though my life is good and I'm not complaining in any way, I just wish they understood what it is to not have your first chapter. And I wish they cared. I wish that they were aware enough to care about that.
Haley Radke: And our next interview is with Lisa. She is studying to be a therapist, and so we talk a little bit about that in her interview. Let's listen in.
Do you listen to Adoptees On?
Lisa Floyd: I do, and I love it. It's my favorite podcast. I just, it’s…
Haley Radke: What do you like about it?
Lisa Floyd: Well, I think it just captures the adoptee experience very well and just that… When you're with other people that get it, it's just…you're with your peeps.
Haley Radke: Right.
Lisa Floyd: I'm with my adoptee peeps.
Haley Radke: Awesome. Great. I wanted to ask you, is there anything that you wish you could say that's been unsaid to your family of origin, either your birth mother or father, or anybody?
Lisa Floyd: With my birth father, I wish I could have known him. I mean, he died, he was dead years before I knew who he was. My birth mother, I wish that she had accepted me before she died, and I still hope that my siblings and I can know one another one day. You know, that's, I think that's up to God. Just that I wish them peace and healing from their own traumas.
Haley Radke: Yeah. Is there anything that you want non-adopted people to know about adoptees and about our experience?
Lisa Floyd: Yeah, that it's traumatic and hard and I wish that there would be more validation for our pain and suffering, but I don't need people's validation. I just wanna, you know, educate people and help my fellow adoptees when I become a therapist.
Haley Radke: Yeah. So you're in training for that right now?
Lisa Floyd: I am. I am. And I am excited to help people and I get it. And I can help others who are hurting.
Haley Radke: And how about the people in your cohort, in your class? Do you ever talk to them about adoption? Do they get it?
Lisa Floyd: And they don't get it.
Haley Radke: No.
Lisa Floyd: And I want 'em to get it.
Haley Radke: Yeah.
Lisa Floyd: So I'm helping to educate them. I find they're interested and I'm gonna keep “dropping the mic" (as Pam Kroskie says). So I'm gonna keep doing that.
Haley Radke: That's good. And what about adoption in general? What do you wish was different about adoption?
Lisa Floyd: I wish the money was taken out of it, because I think it's basically buying children. I don't think that—I just think that needs to be taken out. I think there is a need for adoption, in some instances.
Haley Radke: Like what?
Lisa Floyd: Like when there is bad abuse. There's just sometimes that it is necessary to protect the child. Adoption needs to be for the protection of the child, not for everybody else's interests. It should be about the child, so…
Haley Radke: Yeah. Yeah.
Lisa Floyd: But I mostly think that children should be with their families, if at all possible.
Haley Radke: I agree.
Lisa Floyd: Yep.
Haley Radke: Thank you, Lisa.
Lisa Floyd: You're welcome!
Haley Radke: And this next interview is with Michelle and she's actually been to a ton of different adoption conferences. And so it was so cool to hear from her about her experiences. I had breakfast with her one morning right before the conference started, and that was really enlightening. So let's listen in to my chat with Michelle.
Okay. So do you listen to Adoptees On?
Michelle Madden: Yes, I do.
Haley Radke: Okay. And what are your thoughts about the show?
Lisa Floyd: Very informative, very insightful. I really was touched by a couple of the healing—it was the healing series?
Haley Radke: Yeah.
Michelle Madden: Yes. And I think I retweeted a couple of those episodes, because they were really insightful and it makes you… Sometimes it gives words to emotions that you had, but you couldn't label it? And sometimes you just think, Okay, it's not just me. So it was very nice.
Haley Radke: Yeah, awesome.
Michelle Madden: Yeah.
Haley Radke: It's so cool that you came to the conference. I've loved connecting with other adoptees. It's been so fun.
I was wondering your thoughts on adoption: Should it ever happen? What do you think about that?
Michelle Madden: I think I'm still–I think when I was kind of in the fog, I used to think, Oh, you know, I'm sure it's fine for some people. There are a lot of adoptees that are, you know, it “doesn't bother 'em at all,” quote unquote.
I think that more measures should definitely be taken to keep the mother and child together. And I think if that doesn't work, they should do kinship adoptions. I think, sometimes it's—I don't know. I guess sometimes it's okay for a kinship adoption or something if parents, you know, in serving a life sentence, or if the drug addiction is not resolving itself. Or, I mean, I would like to think about it more, but I would be very conservative in terms of when it's acceptable.
Haley Radke: Right.
Michelle Madden: But I do know social workers who have told me, you know, sometimes it, you just—there is no choice. I was talking to one who said a Pakistani woman, she would've literally been killed, murdered if her family found out she'd had a baby.
Haley Radke: Yeah. Yeah, that's—thank you.
Okay, last question. What do you wish non-adopted people knew about adoption or just living the adoptee life?
Michelle Madden: I think the safest thing to say would be, I wish they knew that they don't know. It's just that they try not to label us, and put us in a box, or put us in a certain place. Or assume that we're going to feel certain ways, or that we should feel certain ways. And just to listen and understand, there's no way they're going to be able to grasp this because they haven't walked in those shoes.
Haley Radke: Okay. Up next is my interview with Erica and Maret, and they are such beautiful women.
This is a mother and daughter who've been in reunion for two years now. I just wanna set the stage for you a little bit. We were downstairs in our hotel where there was a lobby area with a little restaurant and we were chatting there, so you can hear there's a bunch of people around.
But this almost half an hour that we chatted, I couldn't hear anything but these women and they were… They were not talking to me, they were talking to each other. And it was incredible to see how similar they are, and you can hear both of them. Maret had these beautiful gold bangles on, so you can hear them when she's talking with her hands. You'll hear them jingling a little bit.
And Erica had a silver bracelet with all these different little pieces on it as well. And so she jingles a little bit when she's talking with her hands. And it was just unbelievable to witness this conversation. Like I said in the intro, I feel like I was intruding in some sacred space, and so I hope you'll feel that, too.
Let's listen in to them talk a bit about their reunion, why they attended the conference, and some of the different healing things that they're both working through.
You came to this conference 'cause you wanted to find some healing together. Tell me a little bit more about that.
Erica Curry VanEe: Yeah, Maret and I met two years ago, almost. I mean, we're in a two year ago season.
Maret Headley: Anniversary.
Erica Curry VanEe: Yes, our anniversary. And this is actually her birthday present. This conference.
Maret Headley: Yes, it is. Thank you, dear.
Erica Curry VanEe: Yes, you're so welcome.
So we met in 2015 when the records were open in the state of Ohio. So I searched my whole life for my biological family. I officially searched, you know, I had signed up for registries, and I hired private investigators, and I petitioned the courts. And I was denied and denied and denied. And, you know, I wasn't actively searching the whole time, but I was pretty actively searching for about 27 years. And then fortunately, Betsie Norris in the state of Ohio was also concurrently doing advocacy work at the same time, but I was completely unaware. I lived in Michigan.
And when the records opened in 2013 (at the end of that year), right after the records opened, a friend of mine had Google searched adoption in Ohio and realized that they would be opening in 2015. So I went down to Columbus, marched to get my records at Vital Statistics. My birth certificate came on Easter Sunday. Well, it actually came on Good Friday.
Maret Headley: Okay, Good Friday.
Erica Curry VanEe: In 2015. And I decided to wait and open it on Easter Sunday, because it was my re-birthday and also Resurrection Day. And so I opened it at the exact moment of my birth, 6:59 AM. And then I found Maret within an hour. And actually on Facebook. And so, I friend requested her and then went to church. And halfway through church, she accepted my friend request.
And then her first words to me were, “You must have a million questions and I'll gladly answer every one.” And we took it from Facebook into a pen pal situation, and we wrote back and forth for a couple, few weeks, I’d say.
Maret Headley: Email. We were emailing for several weeks. Maybe more. Before we even talked.
Erica Curry VanEe: Yeah. And it was amazing. Yes.
Maret Headley: And…
Erica Curry VanEe: And yeah, go ahead.
Maret Headley: The first time we talked, the first time I heard your voice, I couldn't believe your voice.
Erica Curry VanEe: Yes.
Maret Headley: Your voice is just so amazing. You know, it's like the most amazing voice in the whole world.
Erica Curry VanEe: I felt the same way. I wondered, Do I have your voice? Because my whole life, people always would comment on my voice and I thought her voice was very distinctive.
And so it was very beautiful how it unfolded. And so I know we're—I'm telling you the reunion story. This is leading up to why we're here. But we met, then, in May of 2015.
Maret Headley: It was in June, wasn't it? In June?
Erica Curry VanEe: We met May and June. I came to visit you in May first. Brian and I came to Wilmington.
Maret Headley: Yes. May!!
Erica Curry VanEe: Yes. And we spent a weekend. Yep. And then we went to…
Maret Headley: Ohio.
Erica Curry VanEe: Ohio in June, and I met my birth father and my siblings and Maret flew in for that, and which was pretty cool, because all the college buddies still hang out. And that was a bit surreal. And then we went, then that fall of 2015, I was speaking at a conference in Paris, (actually during the terrorist attacks).
And that was very crazy. I was very close to that whole scene. And Maret was scheduled to fly over then that following weekend. Maret was born in Germany and she came to the United States when she was five, and her whole family returned to Germany after my birth. And so, she took me on a tour of my homeland, and I got to walk the streets, the cobblestone streets of Coburg, where my grandmother and great-grandmother and great-great-grandmother walked. And saw the house they were born in.
And it was just extraordinary. And then the following year, Maret came to— You came to Michigan, actually, that fall before we went to Europe together. You met my mom and dad, my whole family.
Maret Headley: Yeah.
Erica Curry VanEe: And then I can't remember the next time we met. So that was—2015 was a big year. And 2016 Maret came—We met in Ohio for the one year anniversary of opening records.
Maret Headley: That's right. And then actually, then we spent a weekend in New York.
Erica Curry VanEe: Yes. We spent a weekend in New York.
Maret Headley: It was so fascinating, because…
Erica Curry VanEe: But we also, this summer you came to Michigan for a week.
Maret Headley: That's true. We went there. Yes. And alright. We've been to you twice. Yeah.
Erica Curry VanEe: And so we've been, so we've spent a lot of time together. Yeah. And so this trip was this year we, I wanted to come to this conference. Primarily just because I wanted to continue my healing journey and I felt like this would be a wonderful way for she and I just to spend time together. We're usually together with our husbands.
Haley Radke: Yeah.
Erica Curry VanEe: And so just to get some one-on-one time. And it's been amazing. I mean, there's been a lot of birth moms here, first moms here, as well as adoptees that have been, you know, decades into their reunion. And I think there's just a tremendous amount of wisdom.
Maret Headley: Oh, there's, it is just too amazing for words. I'm just blown away by all of this.
Haley Radke: Yeah? What's your couple takeaways that you could share?
Maret Headley: I'm so amazed by all the stories, all of the incredible stories that people have that are just totally unbelievable to me. I mean, when I think about it, you and I have had a relatively… Well, an excellent way of reuniting, I guess.
Erica Curry VanEe: Yeah. It's been really….
Maret Headley: You know, we are probably a model of reunions.
Erica Curry VanEe: Yeah. I think it's been very…and we're in the honeymoon. Right? But I think it's…
Maret Headley: I know, but…
Erica Curry VanEe: You know, I think it's more than that. I mean…
Maret Headley: Oh, it's more than that.
Erica Curry VanEe: When I first met Maret, I felt a connection. I felt I recognized myself in her and…
Maret Headley: Well, we’re the same people.
Erica Curry VanEe: Yes.
Haley Radke: I mean, you guys, you can't see this, but you look so similar. You have similar style, like you are so similar!
Erica Curry VanEe: Yeah, so look at even our shoes. Look at our shoes today.
Haley Radke: My gosh, yes…
Erica Curry VanEe: Yeah, put your shoe up there. We didn't plan this.
Haley Radke: Yeah. Yeah. My gosh.
Erica Curry VanEe: I mean, yeah. We're wearing the same strappy shoes. Oh. But it's true. And I'd never seen anybody I resembled before. I don't have any children.
And so Maret was my first experience of resemblance, which as you know, is such a profound thing as an adoptee. But I also recognize, you know, hearing so many stories of these reunions that start out and then something goes awry.
Haley Radke: Yeah.
Erica Curry VanEe: And I think a lot of it is the healing hasn't been completed. And so as much as anything, I feel like a huge takeaway for me is: how do we have those harder conversations, those deeper conversations about how we each individually coped from the significant trauma of separation? And how do we make sure that we don't act destructively to one another in that journey?
Maret Headley: Yeah. That is something we, I think we have learned, hearing all of these stories about separation and you know, connection, re-separation, and coming back. You know, all of these stories are just very strange and hurtful to me, because I don't want that for us.
Erica Curry VanEe: Yeah, I don't want that either.
Maret Headley: I never want to be angry with you.
Erica Curry VanEe: Yes, I know. And yet, we will have moments where we will be angry. I mean, undoubtedly…
Maret Headley: No, I will never be angry with you. I do not get angry with people.
Erica Curry VanEe: Yeah, I really don't—you know what? This is another thing, we’re very similar this way.
Maret Headley: Yeah.
Erica Curry VanEe: I don't really get angry much, either.
Maret Headley: Yeah.
Erica Curry VanEe: And both of us, you know, like to create harmony and keep the peace.
Maret Headley: Yeah.
Erica Curry VanEe: But I also think there are things that are important for us to continue to process. And Maret is an artist and so I feel like there's something that we will co-create. I feel like a missing piece here for me is that there weren't a lot of mothers and children.
Maret Headley: Yeah.
Erica Curry VanEe: There was one sibling group that came. There was one other mother and daughter recently reunited. But I feel like that's so important, because how do you process that in reality, in reunion?
Haley Radke: Yeah.
Erica Curry VanEe: And so I'm so glad that we've done this and we said outside earlier, you know, “Let's do this again. Let's continue to grow together.”
Maret Headley: Yeah. We, this is one way that we can be together for, you know, the rest of my life, at least.
Erica Curry VanEe: Yes.
Maret Headley: You know, but anyway anger, about anger. I don't know what happens to people…
Erica Curry VanEe: When they separate here, you mean? In the reunion?
Maret Headley: Yeah. I….yeah. I just don't understand it.
Haley Radke: There's a lot of adoptees that are gonna listen that have been rejected by their first parents. Like me.
Maret Headley: Oh, no, that…
Haley Radke: Is there something that you would wanna say to us?
Maret Headley: I think that probably the reasons for rejection were not about you. They were about protection of themselves. Maybe peer pressure or spousal pressure, you know? And you'll never know, probably. I wish you could find out why. I mean, that's what you need to know. You need to know why. Why? Do you have any reason… Does your first mother have, has ever given you any reason?
Haley Radke: No. No, not me personally. And I think that for a lot of us, that's what we hear. We just hear nothing.
Maret Headley: Yeah.
Haley Radke: I've interviewed other adoptees that have gotten– They've spent days pouring out their hearts in this beautiful letter.
Maret Headley: Yeah.
Haley Radke: And they send it away and they have gotten a letter from a lawyer back: “Never contact me again.”
Erica Curry VanEe: I can hear that.
Maret Headley: You know, I know that. I know this.
Erica Curry VanEe: Well and you know, part of it, I think too, is that it's often about shame. So when I first found Maret, what I did not realize and I didn't anticipate— You know, my whole life I've been searching and I did prepare that possibly my name would've been redacted off the birth certificate. Possibly I would've found a grave. Possibly I would've been rejected. And hoped that I would be embraced and accepted, but I could not even conceive of what her lived experience was as a first mother, because I, too, hadn't met any birth moms.
Haley Radke: Yeah.
Erica Curry VanEe: And so one of the things I didn't anticipate was that this was gonna resurrect all of the emotions. It was gonna pull her back 45 years into the feelings of shame.
Maret Headley: Yeah.
And fear, and embarrassment, and terror, and all those things that you felt. (That I don't want to say what those were for you, but…)
**Maret Headley: Yes, exactly. Those, that was the, that was it.
Erica Curry VanEe: Right. And I think one thing that was unique about Maret and I is that her husband Jay knew that she had surrendered me for adoption. And so it wasn't a surprise to him. And they did not have any other children together, and so that was both something I needed to be very sensitive about in terms of how he would receive this and me.
And so I was very intentional about considering her experience and her marriage and to not do, or say, or position anything in such a way that would ever make Maret have to choose. Or have Jay feel that he wasn't as full a part of this as she was. And so I was incredibly intentional about that. And I had a social worker (a very good friend of mine who's a social worker), who said that “Right away,” you know, “You need to really recognize—like these two, you don't know their story. But they don't have children. You're not his biological child. And you know, this could be divisive if you press, prematurely (or whatever).”
And so we went out and our first meeting, Jay was very much a part of that. And Jay and my husband Brian fell in love and we felt...
Maret Headley: Yeah. We all connected.
Erica Curry VanEe: We all were just like… It was very beautiful.
Maret Headley: And Jay loves both of you. You know, it's like he looks forward to seeing both of you.
Erica Curry VanEe: Yeah. And we love Jay. I feel like he's, you know, another bonus dad, you know? But the thing I wanted to say about Maret described it as, it was almost like this submerged beach ball that was pushed down, pushed down, pushed down. And then when I found her, it popped up, out so fast, with such velocity, that it overwhelmed her.
Maret Headley: Such intensity.
Erica Curry VanEe: And, you know, broke her for a season. It was a breakdown for you. I don’t know if you want to share about that.
Maret Headley: Yeah. I was broken. I mean, I have always felt broken for many reasons. Broken for…. But anyway, I don't know what my relinquishment had to do with that, but it probably thrust me further into the abyss of whatever I was going through.
Erica Curry VanEe: Well, at the beginning, I think it was incredibly—it was like pulling the Band-Aid off very quickly and it was very fast.
Maret Headley: Oh yes, okay. All right.
Erica Curry VanEe: But it actually provided—A healing happened in the end, because she stayed with it. She had done enough internal work, and I did enough internal work that I think...
And I think our life stage—she's in her seventies, I'm in my forties. We know that time is limited and you know, so I feel like there was a readiness factor for us.
Maret Headley: Yeah, it came with the perfect time, although… Yes, at the perfect time, actually. But you know, it— I'm just so happy that we found each other before I'd become senile, you know?
Erica Curry VanEe: Yeah, yeah. Before it's too late.
Maret Headley: Yeah.
Erica Curry Van Ee: To have a meaningful relationship.
Haley Radke: It's been so lovely chatting with you. I just have two more questions.
What would you say needs to change in the adoption world? Should adoption exist or not? What are your thoughts on that?
Erica Curry Van Ee: Yeah, that's such a… That’s a really big question.
I struggle especially with… You know, here's what's happening for me actually, I'm trying to kind of figure this out right now for myself. Because I am so grateful for the parents that did raise me. And I know, even though not everything about my experience growing up was ideal, that they did absolutely the best that they could, that I wouldn't be the person I am today without their very significant influence. And that my biological parents weren't in a position to be able to raise me.
So you can kind of do the “what-ifs,” “what-ifs.” So, I can't really say that adoption shouldn't happen because then it denies a huge part of my own lived experience. That said, I think it's a very complicated issue and particularly around transracial adoption, international adoption, I have major concerns about that. About the layers upon layers that you have to then uncover and unpeel, and the lifetime that it takes to process through those wounds and those questions of identity.
I think that there are cases that adoption should occur, but I think that we should make every effort to keep families together, mothers and children together. And I like what Leslie said about, you know, if that can't happen, your second best is a kinship adoption, so you keep the child in the family.
Or at minimum, in the home country. And and then you know, I'm still sorting out how I feel about embryo adoption. You know, that came up. And I think that, you know, if a woman were to consent that her embryos could be adopted… I don't know, would I rather see that than have them destroyed? Possibly. But I don't want to see it become a business.
I think the business of adoption has done more harm than good. And our Pollyanna fairytale approach, we deny so much of the woundedness. And what Leslie said about infertility + money = adoption is so true. And that paradigm has to change. We have got to help adoptive parents today understand that adoption is a lifelong journey and that child will always have four sets of parents (or more if their family's split, you know?).
Haley Radke: Right. Yeah.
Erica Curry VanEe: And so to help them emotionally process that through every stage of their life cycle is part of what you sign up for if you're going to adopt a child.
Haley Radke: Yeah.
Erica Curry VanEe: And I think there are children in foster care, there are truly abandoned children that need a home, and every child should be able to have a home. So I can't say adoption should be completely ended, but I think it should be significantly shifted to be much more adoptee-centric. And much more of a first mother informed consent process, so that they recognize the lifetime consequence of that decision.
Haley Radke: Wow. That was very well said. Thank you.
Now my very last question is: What do you say to people who are not adopted, they have no part in adoption, they don't have a clue. What do you, what would you say to them? What is adoption? What has it done to you? What has it done to you in your lives?
Maret Headley: Alright. For me, it has been very, very difficult, because I've hidden this part of my life from everyone all of my life. There are only a handful of people who knew that I gave birth to Erica, and as a result, I've been in a closet for 50 years. And I now live in an area in which I am not supported by liberal people, because it's a very strange area.
I would like to move back to Cincinnati, or live in New York where, you know, there are those people who will accept everything.
Erica Curry VanEe: Yes. (laughs) Yes.
Maret Headley: So I've only told select people. Somehow I, as a birth mother, feel vilified. And I think that's something that… I don't know how to deal with it. It's probably in my head, I don't know, but I think it's in other people's heads, too. So…
Haley Radke: One thing I heard this weekend that really spoke to me about that was the, “Oh, you're so selfless for giving up your baby.”
Maret Headley: Yeah.
Haley Radke: And then immediately, once you do, “How could you give up your baby?” Like you are getting two messages.
Maret Headley: Yeah. Well, that's exactly it. “How could you give up your children?” I've heard that from my husband. “How could you do that?”
I don't know. I mean, I just have no… You know, I just wish I had had counseling. I wish today were back then, when there are so many resources (more resources than there were back then in 1966, of course). You know, there was no one I could talk to except for this xenophobic, misogynist doctor. (laughs) Yahoo!
Erica Curry VanEe: But your mindset of giving (of relinquishment) was also that pressure, right? That you believed this lie that you couldn't have done it. And that we were going to this better home. Right?
Maret Headley: Yeah.
Erica Curry VanEe: And we talked a little bit about this, like what some of those lies that you were told, that you believed.
Maret Headley: Oh yeah. I really believed that Erica was going to be adopted immediately out of the hospital and go to a good home, (you know, professional people, apparently. I thought they told me).
And no, she was not adopted immediately. She languished in a foster home for three months, without any support. You know, without any mother hugging her, cradling her. She didn't have any of this, what a normal infant needs.
I don't know, there you're rocking. You know, and I rock too. We both rock, don't we?
Erica Curry VanEe: Yeah. Yeah, I didn't even notice that. Yeah, it's true.
Maret Headley: Because, see, I should've been rocking you. That would've been the best thing for both of us. And I'm so sorry that, you know, we couldn't have done it. If only I had had the support.
Erica Curry VanEe: Mh-hm. And the thing is though— And I love you, and thank you for that, and you didn't have the support. And you know, I think part of it, too, is that I’m angry at what adoption was back in the 60s, and 70s, and 80s, and even open adoption. I've really shifted my perspective about open adoption this weekend, too.
But for me, I would say (there's so much I would say, but I'll try to be succinct). One thing I would say is that, you know, I don't think that people realize, that the general population realizes that there are over 4 million of us (just in the United States alone), many of us who do not have access to our original birth certificates or our original identities.
And so you wander through life searching, searching, searching. You know, I always used to say it was like I was a dangling participle, you know? I had a diagrammed sentence just left out there. No before, no after, and just so lost. And you know, my parents did the very best that they could to provide me.
Maret Headley: They did. They are such beautiful people. They really are, you know?
Erica Curry VanEe: And they did an amazing job in so many ways. They are. You know, they are, they really are. I mean, they are, but it's taken me a long time to get to that place. And I had huge expectations, I would say for adoptive parents. I had huge expectations of my adoptive parents that they could never have given me, and I never realized they couldn't have given me until I met my biological family, because they couldn't have given me my roots.
They couldn't have given me my medical history. They couldn't have given me resemblance. They couldn't have given me that anchor of identity that could only come through my genetic foundation.
Maret Headley: Powerful.
Erica Curry VanEe: And so we have got to change that. This is a civil rights issue. It's a human rights issue. There are millions of people that still do not have access, and they want access, and they can't get it, and they are grown up now.
Adoption is not just, you know, rescuing these little babies. Babies grow up into adults that want to self-actualize, and you can't do that without knowing where you came from.
Maret Headley: They're looking for the truth.
Erica Curry VanEe: Yes.
Maret Headley: You know? That's what everyone here is looking for.
Erica Curry VanEe: And I also think that it's going to be a natural for everybody who listens to your podcast, because they're finding you for a reason, they're searching for something, a connection with others like them....
But I think that, you know, a lot of my friends of color— In my town I do, you know, advocacy around equity issues and we have Black Women Connect, and we have the Latina Ladies’ Network, and, you know, different groups that come together. And the importance of affinity groups is really important.
And this is a bit of an invisible minority, right? I mean, we're one, somewhat forgotten, somewhat silenced. And very much marginalized, right? Because of all the messages that we're told to “be grateful and just be happy that you got a home.” And there's nothing unnatural about wanting to know your nature and understand how that fits with your nurture.
And so I think that for people to find support out there, and if there isn't a support group in their state or their country, to find podcasts, like what you are doing, Haley, is so crucial. You're my favorite podcaster right now. I love you.
Haley Radke: Cool.
Erica Curry VanEe: And I've found so much connection with your work, and the people that you have connected us to. And I found so much support through my little secret Facebook groups that are other adoptees that are going through this experience of search and reunion. It is a lifetime journey and it is important to plug in and find folks that you can connect with.
Haley Radke: Thank you ladies so much. It's just been an honor to sit here and watch you talk to each other. It's so beautiful. Thank you.
Erica Curry VanEe and Maret Headley: Thank you.
Haley Radke: Yeah. You can actually watch a YouTube video (and I'll put a link to that in the show notes) of Maret and Erica meeting for the first time. And I want to just share one more thing with you about that incredible interview I had with these two women. Erica brought out her purse at the end, when we finished the interview.
And she pulled out this piece of paper and she's, “Haley, do you wanna see my birth certificate?” And I was like, “Oh! Yeah, okay.” And then she talked a little bit about the Open Records and why she was able to find her biological family. So she pulls out her birth certificate and she showed it to me and (see—I'm gonna cry).
I just started crying. It was amazing. I've never seen my own original birth certificate and she has hers. And that's because of so many other adoptees and first parents that have been working so hard on changing the legislation, and trying to allow everyone to have access to their original birth certificates.
So, I'll never forget that moment. It was incredible. And thank you Erica, for sharing that with me. That's the first real birth certificate I've seen, besides my sons’. So powerful.
Okay, before we wrap up, I want to thank the team of organizers that put on the Building Bridges event. Pam Kroskie, and Marcie, and Jennifer—thank you so much for all your hard work. It was incredible to be in the same room as 80+ attendees that were adoptees, and first parents, and other people that are really invested in changing legislation, figuring out how to heal adoption trauma, and just to change the system together. It was an amazing experience. I'd love to attend another conference.
And when I hear of other events like this in the future, I'll be sure to let you know. And if you have a chance to go to an event like this, please do. I literally came away changed. You've gotten to hear from a bunch of different people in this episode and I want you to be able to find them on social media, so you can connect with them, chat with them about what they've shared here.
And so I'm going to post links to everyone's social media channels in the show notes, so you can find those. You go to adopteeson.com.
So I want to say a big thank you again to Lisa, Ruth, Michelle, Erica, and Maret. Thank you for being on the podcast today. Thanks for sharing some of your stories, some of your different opinions. I just really loved getting everyone's different perspectives.
If you want to keep connecting, keep talking about these adoptee issues, one of the awesome safe spaces you can do that, is if you join my Patreon team. You can partner with me, you can… Patreon is a platform where you sign up and you contribute a small amount each month to help me cover the cost of producing the podcast.
And as a thank you, I have a secret Facebook group and we have some really great discussions about the episodes in there. You'll find other Patreon supporters in that group. You'll find former guests of the show. It's such a wonderful space. So I hope you'll come and join up with us there. You can do that at adopteeson.com/partner to find more details.
And of course, we're on all the social media channels. Come find us wherever: on our Facebook page, we've got Instagram: @Adopteeson, Twitter: @Adopteeson. Come and chat with me. I would love to talk with you. Thanks for listening. Let's talk again, next Friday.
