283 Cam Lee Small, MS, LPCC
/Transcript
Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/283
Haley Radke: This podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing stated on it, either by its hosts or any guests, is to be construed as psychological, medical, or legal advice.
You're listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. I'm Haley Radke. We have a returning guest, adoptee therapist, Cam Lee Small, back with us today. Cam has a brand new book out, The Adoptee's Journey from Loss and Trauma to Healing and Empowerment, published by A Faith Based Press.
I recently got to meet Cam in real life, and he is just as warm and genuine as he appears on the internet. In our conversation today, Cam and I talk about how most churches have majorly missed the mark in serving adoptees. We address how gotcha day [00:01:00] misses the lost-ya day and the grief of adoption. One of my favorite things Cam shares in his book, and we do address it, is that just being an adopted person takes an extraordinary amount of cognitive and emotional bandwidth.
Before we get started, I wanna personally invite you to join our Patreon adoptee community today over on adopteeson.com/community, which helps support you and also the show to support more adoptees around the world. We wrap up with some recommended resources and as always, links to everything we'll be talking about today are on the website, adopteeson.com.
Let's listen in. I'm so pleased to welcome to Adoptees On. Welcome back to Adoptees On Cam Lee Small. Hi Cam.
Cam Lee Small, MS, LPCC: I'm so glad to be here, Haley. Thanks for having me.
Haley Radke: I am so excited because you have a brand new book out and it's part [00:02:00] memoir, like you have a chunk of your story in there and I loved hearing more about that directly from you, but I know you've been on the show before, but would you start and just share a little bit of your story with us for folks who may not know you?
Cam Lee Small, MS, LPCC: Absolutely. I am coming into this space as a Korean American adoptee, and right now, professionally, I serve as a mental health provider here in the Twin Cities, and a lot of my work is pointed to serve adult adoptees, teen adoptees, and their families. And just normalizing this conversation on mental health.
So that's a snapshot and I'm sure we'll get further into that as we go along.
Haley Radke: Let's start with the obvious. Your Instagram handle is Therapy Redeemed. You are publishing this book with IVP, which is a faith based organization. And so we are coming at this today from more of a [00:03:00] Christian faith based lens.
That's the questions I'm going to come to you with. So can you tell me a little bit about your background with Christianity and where you personally stand today?
Cam Lee Small, MS, LPCC: Yes. And as an early reader, Haley, I'm very thankful for just your partnership and support in this in the beginning of the book, and I'm referencing that because in the beginning there is part of the dedication and it basically is an invitation to say that for folks who grew up in the church, in the local church environment, we may not have always had the language or permission to think about our adoption stories, or our personal stories in general, beyond that lens of thanksgiving and gratitude.
And, it's possible there even just, me personally growing up in the 80s, there just wasn't an organized [00:04:00] system or set of words and testimonies. This particular book is written as a sort of love letter to all adoptees and adoptees who grew up in the church wondering, what do I do now? I've got some emotions coming up for me. I've got some questions and wonders, and I don't know if I can bring that to the fellowship or who in my church community would be willing to sit with me in this without me feeling ashamed or guilty or betraying my faith in any way. And so really this book is it contributes to the work that our adoptee elders have done.
And I hope to provide another entry point for folks who want to talk about this while preserving their sense of their valued faith, what they believe about scripture, [00:05:00] about God, about Christ, about all of those layers that might be very important to them, but they do have a hunger to know more and perhaps be engaged and participate more in this global movement of adoptee consciousness.
That model we're even just co creating still, not me personally, but co creating as a community. As these publications continue to come out.
Haley Radke: So I know you and I both know this, but I'm gonna say it out loud that so many of us were adopted into Christian families. Then as we were raised in the church had this sense of we are supposed to be this model for how God adopted us as well.
And we're like literally the poster child for, whatever you want to say, the symbolic adoption of God into his family. [00:06:00] And so unpacking that as teens or adults, or whenever we're coming into adoptee consciousness has meant for so many of us, this break in faith and this break with the church because it's like the two things cannot live simultaneously within us. I know you have thoughts on that. What do you want to say about that? And have you observed that in your own clients? I know so many of us, people who've been on the show have fully walked away from the church and so many people in my community will say so as well.
Cam Lee Small, MS, LPCC: There's an interesting perspective that came to my mind as I was hearing you walk me through that Haley, there's maybe someone who feels like they, they've, have too much of one kind of background [00:07:00] to completely subscribe to or embrace this new conversation or a different conversation, a third space, so to speak, and I'm putting to get this together on like in real time with you right now.
That's why I'm so grateful for these types of dialogues that, oh, maybe I'm too Christian. To say that adoption isn't just love, or adoption isn't just beautiful, maybe I'm too Christian to even wonder, is it more than that? And then, there might be someone who feels like, I feel so strongly about challenging some of these dominant themes that have hurt so many people in communities. I have that within me. Am I still able to explore faith and what that could mean? Am I even still welcome in this small group at church? Will you still pray for [00:08:00] me? Do I still pray? These are the types of complexities that are coming up for folks and that I've navigated myself as we think about unpacking and expanding, widening the scope of this conversation about adoption, faith, and mental health.
That's a, in a nutshell, what I'm seeing personally going through that walk. And it's an ongoing, always in process kind of journey, especially as my children have different questions and different wonderings as they get older. And also as I work with adoptees, adult adoptees on a daily basis, really wanting to honor their story and where they're coming from and sit with them, not in a sugar coated manner.
And definitely not in like I'm an expert on you. Let me, as a clinician tell you what to think, feel, and do. But really as a co struggler, a soldier nerd, just a fellow human trying to make sense [00:09:00] of this 80, 90 years, however much time we've got on this spinning rock, I'm right there alongside you.
Let's sit with this together.
Haley Radke: Have you had conversations personally with leaders in churches you've been involved with regards to adoption?
Cam Lee Small, MS, LPCC: Yes. Two layers there. I guess there's the church communities that I've personally been a part of. And yes, we've had conversations about this before.
And having space to share my testimony and work through that with folks and for myself, the ones that I've worked with, just the fellowships that I've been a part of in the local community I personally have been thankful for the invitation, the permission, the encouragement to ask away, to not just accept what we tell you blindly, but this is a conversation.
This isn't [00:10:00] a fully top down I am the pastor, or I am the small group leader, or I am the whatever, and you do what I say because I heard from God this week. It's really tell me more. This is a layer of the human experience that matters. It's significant, so we can talk about that here. So I've been grateful to have that open space.
So that's one layer. Another layer, the second layer, is church communities and leaders that approach me and invite me in to speak or to work with their congregation or their community. They're already invested and interested in this conversation, and they're already aware and have a desire to learn more and connect the people under their care to this conversation.
Now, it's possible that, it is the case that I've been in, spaces that [00:11:00] are associated with or adjacent to a faith background where not everyone in the audience agrees with what I'm saying, or they have some reservation about even, oh, racial identity is something that demands our attention. Oh what about X, Y, Z?
What about reverse? Sure. Let's talk about that. And I think for me, that's been the part of my work is the work to meet folks. And like I said, for me, I'm not saying anyone else has to do this or should do this, or this makes you good or bad. But for me, part of my journey is meeting folks there. At that conference or in that audience, let's sit together and talk about that.
Now, it's not going to be my job to say, okay, by the end of our talk today or by the end of my session, you're going to leave here believing everything that I believe or agreeing with everything that I say, but at least you have a category in your mind. And so do I. Of a time when you sat with someone who didn't fully agree with [00:12:00] you and you were able to have a constructive conversation about it and we exchanged ideas.
That's a dialogue. Like my goal is not to convert you, even though maybe your goal is to convert me, but my goal is to sit with you and learn from you, but also share some of what's in my mind and heart and body and soul with you. Because now all of the neurons in your mind or some of them have rallied together and organized and now a thought.
And maybe just part of the thought that was in my mind is now inside your mind, and that's what you can take home with you when you consider your 17 year old teen adoptee who is wondering about race, but you're telling them you don't see color. Now you have something to take to them.
Haley Radke: Do you feel like there's been a shift in the last few years. I know I've recounted this story on the show before. Forgive me for repeating myself, but a number of years ago, I'm going to say six, maybe ish years ago, I asked at my former church, if I could [00:13:00] host my adult adoptee support group there and through a series of meetings was declined. And I really got the sense it was because we don't want to hurt any of the adoptive parents feelings in our church by suggesting that there's anything wrong with adoption, like why would adult adoptees need a support group? And so that was spiritually excruciating for me, eventually leading me to not attend that church anymore. And now we're attending a new church and say the last six months or so. And I recently had a meeting with our pastor and his wife, we had them over for a dinner meeting, sounds so official. And I explained the circumstances of that. And we were talking about adoption and it was interesting to me, their response about seeing adoptees as having had a loss and the pastor's wife in particular, she was saying like, oh, like I can see there's like this [00:14:00] grief, this unacknowledged grief.
And I was like, Okay, now this is a 180, so have you seen any shifts in conversations over time? Do you think it is having the church wake up to some of the, I'm a white adoptee adopted by white parents. But there's been so many more conversations about race lately that some churches are waking up to as well.
And I know there's so many intercountry adoptees that were raised by Christians as well. So thoughts.
Cam Lee Small, MS, LPCC: The welcoming of conversation associated with mental health support. We're destigmatizing that. We're normalizing that conversation and we're widening the doorway to who can benefit from mental health.
We're also rebuilding what mental health means or is or implications of it. So rather [00:15:00] than mental health support is a punishment or a consequence for deviant behavior, it's actually this very essential life giving practice, including preventative care as well, that increases and fosters and nurtures our connection with other people.
We're relational beings. And once we started to see in over the past decade, I think, yeah, the spirit of the times has shifted once we have begun to see mental health in that realm of an actual like healthy thing that we don't just make people go to I think that is that's one of the significant factors in the conversation being more accessible in the church and leaders in the church being more willing to explore so what does that mean for everyone, and especially for [00:16:00] adoptees. So what your dinner guests would say, wow, there's some, I can acknowledge there's some grief related to the experience of family separation and adoption and the way that we would normally have a survivor's group for a natural disaster or domestic abuse or any kind of experience where it left an imprint on a person or an individual, and now there's a support group for it. Yeah, the notion of where is the adoption survivor support group? Adoption isn't something that we survive. And then we get into the semantics of like adoption. But we're saying that if you're in a family and for whatever reason now you're not, that can potentially leave an imprint on you, whether you're an infant, or a toddler, or at any age.
That [00:17:00] doesn't just go unnoticed by our mind, body, soul. Okay? If that is true, then it's also true that anyone who has experienced that might benefit from being able to talk about it. Because that's how healing works. Part of the process of healing is being able to explore, identify, and organize my thoughts around something that happened and be invited and even practice this sort of increased capacity to make new meanings out of it and ultimately make decisions about it in my life for what does that mean now for my relationships, for my roles in my family, my role professionally, my role as an advocate, a community member. So that's where I see some of that shifting happen is that first of all, we're widening the doorway to say anybody can benefit from mental health.
And then we're clarifying what is mental health. It's not a punishment. It's something essential [00:18:00] for humanity for if you have a brain and a nervous system and a body, you can benefit from mental health support. Now there's formal support. There's informal support. There's so many different ways to do it.
And then there are different like cultural, there's a tenor of what that means depending on where on earth you live. But in general, being able to talk to someone and receive help from outside of yourself to organize your thoughts about something that happened to you, Or an event that you endured or navigated through, we're here for it and people are coming out of the woodwork to say, let me help, that's what I've been seeing and yes, we're always going to have the folks that are saying no thank you and pushing back and even, if you think about What's it called?
The the second touchstone in the adoptive consciousness model is rupture and it's almost this digging my heels in to see, say, yeah, maybe there's some new information that I heard about adoption, but I'm sticking, I'm going to double down. [00:19:00] I'm sticking to my guns here. Adoption is beautiful.
It, there's so many great stories about how it works. That's my final answer. And I'm not, we're not shaming anyone. We're just, we're describing that idea that when you hear new information about something, our body is immediately going to put up a little bit of a guard because whoa, maybe something in my limbic system says beep, threat.
That's unfamiliar to me. Something bad could happen, and that's normal, but that's part of the process, and then we move on to sitting with these conflicting feelings, dissonance, and then expansiveness, and all of that. That was, Yeah, that's what comes to my mind as I think about that shift.
Haley Radke: Thank you for saying that. And I appreciate the call about mental health, too, because that is something the church struggled with for so many years. We'll just, say a prayer and it'll go away. Okay. I have church critiques. I do. I do. Anyway, I love this line from your book, you say, [00:20:00] The amount of cognitive and emotional bandwidth it all takes from us is extraordinary. You're just talking about living as an adopted person. Thank you for that acknowledgement.
Cam Lee Small, MS, LPCC: Yeah. That's where I think this notion of you don't have to be at a certain location in these five touchpoints of adoption because it can be protective to say, actually, I don't time, I don't have time this week, this month, this year kind of thing to devote to the deep dive Into all that adoption means for me, because when I do that, I know what it's going to require from me emotionally, physically, like the energy it takes to even allow grief to come in.
And yes, if we don't devote this sort of like attunement to that, it might come out semantically in other ways, [00:21:00] stomach aches, back pains, muscles, I get sick, my immune system. What we're saying though, is that I understand there's a protective layer to saying, I don't have what it takes to talk about that right now, or to think about what it means for me.
I know status quo term it can feel loaded, but what I, the way that I interpret or the way that I, one of the ways that I mobilize that in the way that I work with folks is to allow them that space to say yeah, I can understand why you wouldn't want to engage in that conversation so deeply right now.
This might not be the time for you and that's okay. But yes, it is extraordinary, just the amount of ourselves that is required when we move around the world conscious about these adoption related layers. [00:22:00]
Haley Radke: I've heard you say that the book is really focused on adult adoptees as the main audience and that you hope that an adoptive parent may, so to speak, read over their shoulder in order to gain some understanding about us by reading the book. And I know we're not in the comparison trauma Olympics. But I'm going to just say your story is a little different from a lot of adoptees. So I was an infant adoptee. So many of us were, and then we have adoptees that were, relinquished at an older age or removed from their family for some reason.
And you share a bit of your story in the book I mentioned earlier, and you were just past three years old when you were made available for adoption. And I wonder, in talking about adoption as a trauma, [00:23:00] and still trying to tell people this is a trauma, being separated from our family is a trauma. I wonder if your story can highlight that a little bit more for folks that really don't get it.
You were a baby. You don't know any different. You went from one family right to the next. Some of us in the delivery room, however sketchy that is. Do you have thoughts on that? Do you think that your story just being just that slightly bit older and having some, early memories, does that change anything for an adoptive parent hearing that and being like, Oh my goodness. You really did have parents and I'm so sorry that, your father died when you were three, and that was seemingly the impetus for your separation from them. And, I don't know, it's oh, you were part orphan, like it's [00:24:00] very evident versus an infant adoptee who's relinquished at birth, etc.
Cam Lee Small, MS, LPCC: I wanted to give adoptee readers a chance and an invitation to pause and consider there may be a history that belongs to you that gets left out of our intake documents or the gotcha book or, the coming home party. So we're really hoping readers would get that. And as I considered adoptive parents reading this, the hope is to honor the fact that the reader's story, anyone who reads this is going to have a different one than mine.
And I make that very clear that your story is individualized in there and what are some of the comments that we face. And I think at whatever age one is at relinquishment, it's true that we [00:25:00] can say there is a significant history that belongs to you, relational experiences, interpersonal realities, at whatever age, even in the womb, in utero, prenatal, that would matter.
So if you've been taught that your life began at the gotcha day party. I wanted to give you permission to, you can still hold that card if you want, but I want to put another card in your hand to say, maybe my life didn't begin with my adopted parents. That's why I say I was a son before I was adopted.
Now whether you're an infant or a toddler or whatever, I think like children don't need us to tell them that maybe they can feel it already in their bodies, but they do need some guidance perhaps, or some mentorship or role modeling. Some kind of help allows them to articulate. What does [00:26:00] that mean for me though?
When I'm walking through the hallways at school, or even just when I'm looking at my family pictures or when I'm sitting alone in my bedroom, when I'm laying in bed at night, wondering why am I here? What's going on? What happened to me? That's the hope that something did happen. Not just what we're looking at in the Hallmark celebration party card.
But maybe there are some other important events that happen and important people that are potentially still happening. They might still be alive and depending on, regardless of the background of what that means, if it's a quote unquote hard story or kind of a difficult circumstance, there's this idea that, like for example, an incarcerated mother is still a mother.
Okay, that's a complicated feeling for some folks and I want to honor that. Just, the overall zooming up 30, 000 foot helicopter view is to say, that's a thing. This shared history in this individual history is a thing. [00:27:00] And if you've never been given space to talk about that or think about it, here you go.
And don't fully count on me to unpack that fully, it is normal to reach out to a professional or someone you trust or an adoptee group that fits for you and find a space where you feel comfortable to utter your first word about that. I think there's more to my life than what I experienced in my adoptive family.
I don't know what that means fully right now, but I, it's, something's coming up for me and to have someone or a group of people say, me too, that's welcomed here. Let's talk about that. So there's an adoptee whose parent disagrees with this, or they've never been exposed or haven't had access to the conversation you and I'm having today.
Haley. My hope is that if they get their hands on a book like [00:28:00] this, it can be the RSVP, it can be the invitation to say why don't you think about this too, because it could benefit you and your family.
Haley Radke: I just heard Pam Cordano, fellow adoptee therapist, describe this as us being pulled out of the spiderweb of legacy of our family, right? Because it's not just we had a mother and father and they had parents and they had parents and then there's possible siblings and cousins and, all think of the centuries back and back and back, right? So that's building out like the spider web. And then we're like, pulled out of this whole system.
So I love that this call to remember we had a history. That's so beautiful, Cam. Okay. You say in the book, this is so good. Gotcha day misses lost-ya day. This affirms that situational [00:29:00] gains are enough to minimize or silence the impact of relational losses or events that happen to and within the person. Can you talk about that?
Because I still see some adoptees, again, no shame, celebrating their gotcha day. And I'm like wow, this is, I thought we were past that, but I guess not.
Cam Lee Small, MS, LPCC: It misses the lost-ya day. And one of the disclaimers in the book is I am not hoping to project or prescribe that a reader should feel a certain way.
What I mean by sometimes a gotcha day misses the lost-ya day is really asking a question. What have we missed or who have we missed out on by saying gotcha, period. That's it. done, end of story. [00:30:00] My hope is to say, part of the story can be your gotcha day. I want to honor that because that's your life. You get to co create, and live out that meaning.
That's part of the story. What if, or who would you be, or what in your life would change, or what would you potentially gain by saying or asking, what else belongs in this story? Who else belongs in my story too? Who else is in my story, but they've been erased or not mentioned, or maybe white out over there, over the ink on the intake form.
And when we can acknowledge that, I'm thinking about this YouTube clip, and it was a story maybe I actually don't know how many years ago, maybe five years ago, six, seven, eight, nine, ten about an adoptee who reconnected with a sibling. And the music, it's interesting, [00:31:00] the music over this story is like a Today Show kind of idea, like it's happy music.
And I don't want to take away the happiness that the two adoptees in this story were feeling, or layers of it that they might have been feeling. I don't want to take away from that. But it struck me that, the music, the soundtrack to that three minute story of two adoptees uniting, the music doesn't match the loss.
The music doesn't match the misery would have been potentially part of the first part of the story. And again, that's just a three minute clip. So I don't know what they did personally on their end before, during, and after that meeting, we just saw what the news team copying pasted and chunked up together in, in their videos, editing software.
That's all we saw. But if our culture [00:32:00] is saturated with videos and stories like that one only or predominantly, then what about the adoptee sitting there watching YouTube saying that's not my story, and I don't even see my story. That's a great mirror for folks who want the happy thing, or that's all they have, but I don't have a three minute happy thing.
Where's my story? The hope of, about, gotcha day misses lost-ya day is for you, dear adoptee, there is a story for you. There is a place for you to see yourself represented too. If you don't, if you're thinking, I don't have all the answers. I don't have all of the major happy music feelings in my life.
I've got questions. I've got unfinished layers of who I am and what I've experienced. It's dear you're welcome here. And we're trying to create more of what you need to feel like you're not the only one sitting there. That's what we're, that's what I [00:33:00] mean when I say it misses the lost-ya day.
That we need more of those pieces represented so that the adoptees sitting alone in their room feeling like they're the only one, they don't have to sit there much longer. We're coming for you, buddy. Just wait. There's stuff already out here. Let me show you where that is.
Haley Radke: I love that throughout the book, you are referencing all these other scholars, and I think this idea is from Gabor Maté. This is a quote from you. Adoptees especially are vulnerable beneath the push to sacrifice their authenticity for the sake of attachment. And I think that's, it's reminding me of that when you were talking about the gotcha lost-ya day, because there's this like big celebration and in order to be a part of the family and to show that we're a part of this family I feel like there's this pressure for us to, you want to participate in that because that's what a member of this family [00:34:00] does is celebrates you joining our family. And so I hope that, with your book and these conversations, especially for any adoptive parents listening, like we also need to have room for acknowledging the loss. And, I know lots of people are like, yeah, we get it. We get, but there's so many families that are still not doing that. And so disappointing. And I'm so hopeful that your Invitation to them to think about that will welcome that in.
Cam Lee Small, MS, LPCC: What do I have to sacrifice or erase in order to feel secure and safe and loved by you guys in this family? And Amanda Baden has that research from, I think, 2012 about reculturation but in, in that paper, there's this idea that, and I'm talking about international transracial adoptees, of assimilation is a survival issue.[00:35:00]
And so the reason that touches me personally is because I was three and a half years old. I was speaking Korean language, eating Korean food, knowing Korean culture. And now I'm here in the Midwest, Wisconsin. And so for other adoptees who've experienced something like that, the idea of assimilation is a survival issue because in order to get my needs met in terms of attachment and caregiving and feeling protected, the question is, what do I have to do?
Now, if I don't know the language I better drop whatever it is I know. And I better start picking up on things pretty quickly to say, I'm hungry. I have to go to the bathroom. I'm tired. I need a change of clothes. I'm cold. I'm too hot. I had a nightmare. I, and of course, like all children have to learn the language, but for folks who've already, who are already had that language, there's that part of assimilation that says, if I don't learn, how you're talking right now, something bad is going to happen to me [00:36:00] or my survival, my safety, my identity, my sense of self is dependent on how much I can communicate to you, dear caregiver, that I feel sad right now or lonely or I need a hug. Now, I'm not saying that is verbatim what happened to me and my family. It's a wider scope. It's on a global scale. It's saying what parts of ourselves as adoptees would come alive if our attachment wasn't dependent.
On that sense of assimilation, or that sense of you're with us now, you belong to us, the past is the past, they made their decision, people like us do things like this is a family tradition, you're a you're a Johnson now, or whatever, you're part of our family, what parts of ourselves and our lives and our stories, our capacities and potentials would come alive if there was that acknowledgement that you were a part of a family already [00:37:00] before we even thought about adopting, you were already part of a culture, a legacy, tradition, a history. What parts of us will come alive? If we allow that into the mixture as well. And so Amanda Baden has the reculturation term, and it doesn't mean that is the end all be all goal that we ought to pursue as if that's the badge of honor and the mountaintop, but there are different outcomes of this idea of how much of my origin story, my heritage culture is important to me.
How do I incorporate that? What does it mean to allow some of that to be lived out in practice? How much of it? None of it? Some of it? Both? That's all up for an adoptee, each individual, to decide. But if they don't know that there's language for this, and if they haven't been given access to this encouragement or affirmation that it's okay to explore that, then, What parts of them will they miss out on, what parts of them will [00:38:00] we, as the world, miss out on, because it wasn't given space to come alive.
There's a gift. There's a strength. There's light in all of that, somehow, and part of this is the invitation permission to say let's see it. It's part of you. It belongs here.
Haley Radke: I have this vision of adoptees who I'm going to use the term are still in the fog and haven't really thought about adoption critically before diving into your book and And just really becoming aware, and I hope that they would do it slowly because, wow, that's a big process but I think you're, I'm going into recommended resources because I'm going to recommend your book, and I don't endorse every book that gets sent my way, by the way. I take it seriously, and I read it, and I told you that in my email to you. It's called The Adoptee's Journey from Loss and Trauma to Healing and Empowerment, and I [00:39:00] really feel like it is that invitation to really examine it and so thoughtfully, and I love that you present the research and you talk about all of these things. So I'm going to mention a couple things. So you talk about ACEs and PTSD diagnoses and how it's not really recognizes that yet, but maybe it should be. And like the research that's happening right now you share about this framework that you use that most chapters you have, questions for us to go through and like really look at our personal experiences and within the context of support, which you've mentioned, I noticed that you do this, you're always like, is there other adoptees? Is there a mental health provider you can talk through with this? Because it is these like deep woundedness and loss. That if we're [00:40:00] opening that up, and we haven't done that before, it can be a threat to our survival. It can very much feel that way. And I love that gentle process that you talk through, just like your presence, right?
People will hear it in your voice. Your book is so thoughtful in that way, and like leading us through these things. I also love that you mentioned talking about Korean adoption and like the whole family and this you talk a lot about racial awareness and colonialism and a lot of things that people may not necessarily immediately think of when you talk about adoption, but those things exist for a reason, and adoption is a part of this colonialist practice.
And talking about how Christians have behaved badly in, in this space, and including the whole family, I was like, good for you, Cam. I really appreciate that. [00:41:00] And when you share your story of reunion and the challenges personally, like I know what it probably costs you to write about that. I thought this would be so helpful for so many people.
And I also just want to say that there's been other guides written and things, but this one is very you really go there, there's no surface level anything. Who do you hope reads your book and what do you want to say to folks? Especially keeping in mind, I know a lot of my listeners are like, I was in that Christian thing and it was harmful. So I don't know about this. It feels a little scary.
Cam Lee Small, MS, LPCC: I am blanking on the author's name about this. F. O. G. as an acronym, Fear, Obligation, Guilt, and I'll send the [00:42:00] author and the paper to you after this. But when I think about the readers here, like if you have ever felt afraid for whatever reason, my hope is that I am inviting you into this to provide some comfort and validation that I can sit with that fear and let's take as long as you need.
I don't want you to take this book in one sitting. I think somewhere in there, I say if you don't feel ready for this right now, feel free to pause, put a bookmark in it and come back to it when you're ready. Maybe five years, whenever. And the obligation and guilt is potentially tied up in I'm obligated to really uphold these traditions, these doctrines that I've grown up with.
And if I don't do that, then I'm a bad person, or even bad Christian, maybe. And I want to say I don't have all of the answers for you. What I can say, though, I wonder if our [00:43:00] faith can be sharpened, because how do we sharpen one another by this as a dialogue. I don't want to put this in your mailbox or in your hands and say, look, here's the Bible, you better believe this or you're going somewhere that you don't want to go. I'm saying this is my story and this is many of our stories in the adoptee community a handful of them. What do you think about that? Let's talk about it. And for regardless of your faith background, I was really hoping that I can meet you in this book and say, look, I acknowledge there are crystal clear reasons and there are reasons unique to you why you don't want anything to do with the church.
I want to meet you there and say, I hear you. I see you. I love you. I'm interested in hearing more about that story. Here's a [00:44:00] potential entry point in that. I have my background, my training, my own testimony. Can we still talk? And it's not that I just, I want you to come to church. I just want to give you more tools and resources to work it out.
Whatever you believe about anything in life, this is a sort of generalized somewhat universal kind of tool that you can just put in your toolbox among the many amazing, brilliant tools that you already have, and that will continue to come into creation. This is just one of those. You don't have to use it today.
Maybe it takes a while, or maybe you don't find the thing ever. But at least it's in your toolbox and that's the offering. Okay. That's really who I hope reads it. And as I mentioned before, it's just a slice. It's a, my personal contribution to this overarching JaeRan Kim calls it the adopt an adoptee renaissance happening right now, this is just my two cents [00:45:00] and I'm here with you for you. You can take what is helpful. You can pass on the rest. I'll be cheering for you and us either way.
Haley Radke: Thank you. And I can absolutely see this something that people would come back to, to, if they're ready for a reflection or oh my gosh, I have an appointment with my therapist.
What am I going to talk about? You can go ahead and look for some questions and be like oh, I got something to go. Thank you. I loved it. Truly, and I just heard you are reading the audio book yourself. So for folks that like love your voice and your vibe, like that will be amazing. I can't wait. Okay. What do you want to recommend to us today?
Cam Lee Small, MS, LPCC: I mentioned Dr. JaeRan Kim and that comes to my mind. I continue to be impressed and I look up to JaeRan as a mentor from a distance and just learning from her. So you can go to harlows-monkey. com and get access. And what I love about JaeRan's website is you can click on any one of her tabs and it like can take you on your own [00:46:00] deep dive journey, like back like decades.
And it's clear that her connection to the conversation, it's deep, there's roots there, and it's wide. You can find so many different topics. I know I wasn't planning to say that, we talked about this earlier, but please take a moment and check that out. And then that's where you'll also find the Adoptee Consciousness Model, either through there or Grace Newton's website, Red Thread Broken, and browse around, but definitely resources there.
Haley Radke: JaeRan was on the show and explained the Adoptee Consciousness Model to us. So if you want to like have a little taste of it before you read the paper, it was episode 235. Yeah. Amazing.
Cam Lee Small, MS, LPCC: Episode 235.
Haley Radke: Yeah.
Cam Lee Small, MS, LPCC: Right on. And so the book behind me, When We Become Ours, the adult adoptee anthology, I just love the imagery that evokes.
And it's almost like if you're a comic book fan and you're waiting for a [00:47:00] superhero that represented you. It's like folks who started reading Miss Marvel, Kamala Khan of there's this person just on the street level. Anyway, that's a far reached metaphor. But what I'm saying is that if you've been looking for adoptee sensitive, adoptee centered kind of stories that go beyond some of the positive narratives that we've heard, I think it's just a, it's such a refreshing robust, rich, diverse pool of experiences and I hear it. It asks us questions. It doesn't always give us answers. At the same time, it like invites us to make our own imagery. What would I do in a situation like this? It's just I can't say enough about it. And the swimming analogy slash metaphor. If you feel like, when you learn how to swim, I talked about this in the book, my son is in swimming lessons, three years old, like it's a process you begin in this [00:48:00] part of the pool, but that other part of the pool, the deep end that still exists, but we're beginning over here.
And when he's ready for it, he moves on to level two lane where he can do a full submersion. And the people in the deep end are not looking at my son going oh, what a loser you're, no way. We're all learning how to swim together. Okay, and I'm there with him. That's why, part of this process it gives you time to say you don't have to go to colonization right away. Just know that's part of the pool over there. Okay, go in through an entry point that feels comfortable to you. You can go in alone if you want, go in with someone or a group of people, and start exercising some of that questioning, the wonderings the, just looking at it through a critical lens and allow yourself the time and space to go in, flop around for a while, take a break if you need to, get out, dry off, get a drink, [00:49:00] whatever.
That's part of how I've experienced this journey myself. And that's just one like example picture for folks as they get into that and including the resources that I just mentioned today.
Haley Radke: I love that. Thank you so much. Such a good I love talking with you. Where can we follow you online and where can we find your blog?
Cam Lee Small, MS, LPCC: My website is still therapyredeemed.com.wordpress. You can find my book wherever you get your books, Amazon, Barnes and Noble. And I will be hosting some discussions online. So check out my website for updates on that and my newsletter. And we'll go from there. And maybe you'll see me at some of the upcoming conferences or adoptee community events. Be great to see ya. Stop by, say hi. But yeah, that's where you can find me. Wonderful.
Haley Radke: Thank you so much, Cam.
Cam Lee Small, MS, LPCC: Thank you, Haley.
Haley Radke: I know I mentioned at the top of the show that I [00:50:00] got to meet Cam in person and he came to the screening of Calcutta is My Mother that was held in Minneapolis in May 2024 and we had a brief time together and spent encouraging each other, which was so amazing. And I got a hug and we had a photo together and everything.
So special. It's one of those things where you, I don't know you feel like you get to know people right online. You, I've had conversations with him and. And you interact with people on Instagram and all those kind of things, but it's still between a computer screen, right?
So when you get to meet someone in real life, it's oh my gosh, you're you. You look the same as on Zoom. And you like. And you're just as he was just so kind to me and encouraged me before I went on to host the Q and A. So it was really yeah, special moment for me. So anyway, [00:51:00] congratulations, Cam, on your book. So excited for you and I hope it serves adoptees well. I know it will. And yeah, I'm just thankful for that connection.
Friends I'm working on another show behind the scenes. I have a lot of content for you on Adoptees Off Script, which is the Patreon show that we released weekly for Patreon supporters.
And recently I dropped the podcast to two episodes a month. And with that in mind, I'm going to keep putting shows up for you all through the summer. So no summer break this year. Lucky all of us, we get to keep hearing from amazing adoptees and hearing their stories and the work they're doing in the world.
And I'm really grateful that I can do that for you. So please support the show if you're able to, it helps the work [00:52:00] continue. And I'm excited to share all the cool things that are happening and coming up. And I wish I could tell you, but I can't yet. And, all those things. So thank you for listening to the show.
One of the great ways you can support the show is just by sharing it, this episode with one person. Maybe, a fellow adoptee who has been hurt by the church and would like to hear a little encouragement from Cam today. It'd be wonderful if you'd share this episode with them. Thank you for listening.
Let's talk again soon.
