49 [Healing Series] Coming out of the Fog
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Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/49
Haley Radke: You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. I'm your host, Haley Radke, and this is a special episode in our healing series where I interview therapists who are also adoptees themselves so they know from personal experience what it feels like to be an adoptee.
Today we tackle coming out of the fog. Let's listen in.
I'm so pleased to welcome back to adoptees on Lesli Johnson. Lesli is a fellow adoptee and licensed therapist who works to help other adoptees connect the dots of their story and live authentically. Welcome, Lesli.
Lesli Johnson: Thanks Haley. How are you?
Haley Radke: I'm doing well. Thank you so much for coming back on and now we have met in real life.
Lesli Johnson: I know. So that was fun.
Haley Radke: That was a lot of fun. That was, it was so fun to give you a hug and see your face in person.
Lesli Johnson: Yep. At the CUB Conference, Concerned United Birth Parents, it was nice to see some people that I had only known, up until then, online.
Haley Radke: Yeah. So many connections with online friends in real life is so fun.
Lesli Johnson: Yeah.
Haley Radke: Well, I asked you back to talk about something I probably say every episode and sometimes people are like, I don't even know what you're talking about. That terminology is unfamiliar. And it is "coming out of the fog".
And I was wondering, can you help define that for us and just talk a little bit about what that means to you?
Lesli Johnson: Sure. I'd be happy to. So the term coming out of the fog has become really popular in the adoption community. And I guess my definition, I think it's that acknowledgement and you know, for the first time really acknowledging and facing the reality of what happened.
So for the adoptee and the first parent, birth parent, really facing the grief and loss of the separation. Again, there's no linear timeframe when it happens. Maybe for some people it never happens, but it's been my experience both personally and professionally that when it happens, things really start to shift.
And again, if we're thinking about facing that and trying to integrate the grief and the loss, we're kind of looking at even the stages of grief, denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance. Again, no linear way of processing, but that the adoptee is admitting, wow, adoption really does have an impact on my life.
First Parent has this acknowledgement of, wow, placing a child really did have, does have an impact on my life.
Adoptees, I think we see this on some of the forums and on some of the social media groups, adoptees and adoptive parents too who get really angry at some of the adoptees who are expressing grief and loss. And you know, the like adoptees and adoptive parents that are angry at adoptees who are coming out of the fog. And you get that pushback of, oh, you know, but I had great parents and, you know.
It's not, I was adopted and I had great parents. It's. It's not an either or, it's a both/ and. There's still the grief and loss.
Haley Radke: So what are some of the ways you have seen people experience this and you said, you know, there's stages of grief and you know, there's all these different things. It's not linear. Can you explain maybe what that could feel like for someone to go through that process and maybe what would start them even thinking about it?
Lesli Johnson: An adoptee, an adult adoptee going to search, you know, beginning their search and recognizing and realizing that their birth certificate is a fake. You know, it's the second birth certificate that was given to them that has their adoptive parents' names on it. And coming out of the fog a little bit further, they aren't allowed to access their original birth document. That can be a moment where an adoptee realizes wow. You know, this might be, this is gonna be difficult or, I have a lot of anger about this.
For first parents, I've heard from people in my practice that I've worked with that when they, when their child is about, you know, 12 or 13 or 14 in their teen years that they're coming out of the fog, looks like grief their child isn't a baby anymore. And that solidifies they're not going to parent that child.
I think another example related to feelings that an adoptee might have who's coming out of the fog is maybe when they actually meet their biological parents. They meet their first mother and realize she wasn't the poor girl with tattered clothes, that perhaps was the narrative shared by the adoptive parents. Or she wasn't X, Y or Z, the narrative shared by the adoptive parents.
I think part of when I came out of the fog personally was when I realized I have, I had, and I have no idea where I was for the first three and a half months of my life. Because the story that I was told was that I, my mother thought my adoptive parents thought that I was with my biological mother. And then when I met my biological mother, she let me know that she had relinquished me at birth.
So that was kind of startling to me because it was also around the time when some really close friends of mine had a little baby, and I was like, oh my gosh. Watching, so watching her from birth to three and a half months and kind of, was just very kind of jarring for me.
Haley Radke: And I think for me it was a longer process. Some of it was after my birth mother rejected me a little bit, and then when I first met my biological dad and his wife and my siblings, and seeing the losses there. Connections with them.
Lesli Johnson: Yeah.
Haley Radke: And then really when I got pregnant, my first son, like that was like, that's it. Now I really know.
Lesli Johnson: Right. And I think so many people, so many adoptees share that when they have children of their own, when they have biological children of their own, that reality of, whoa. You know, just, whoa. Not only seeing someone that maybe looks like them, but just the experience of I was this infant once and how did this happen?
Haley Radke: Exactly. I remember having that thought, you know? Yeah. When he was first born, like, how could anyone give away a baby? And that was the thought I had in my head, but, I mean, I understand all the circumstances and all of those things. It's just one of those triggers right now.
So we've talked a little bit about the adoptees and first parents. Now, what about adoptive parents? Would they experience ever being out of the fog?
Lesli Johnson: I haven't read a lot of this particular part, piece of the community, you know, adoptive parents coming outta the fog. But I would say absolutely. So I think that would look like when adoptive parents realize that adopting a child isn't the same as having a biological child. It's a way to, one way to form a family, but it's not the same. Or when their beliefs shift to recognizing that adopting a child from another country is not saving that child. Or that adopting a transracial child, you hear sometimes parents say, our family's colorblind. Or I think coming outta the fog is acknowledging the responsibility of parenting a child, you know, from another country or another ethnicity. So I think it does apply to adoptive parents too.
Haley Radke: Are there any things that we can do when we're going through this experience? Now I guess what I'm wondering about is I've heard from several people that this coming outta the fog has been excruciatingly painful. It's like a midlife crisis for them, and they feel like their world is upside down. You know, many of the things you were describing with grief. Right? Or experience of deep grief. What are some things that we can do to move through this process so we don't feel like that? Like completely confused.
Lesli Johnson: I mean, I think you hit kind of the nail on the head too is that it is a process. So I think the maybe initial coming outta the fog is, you know, maybe it's an event and then is the person completely out of the fog? I mean, I know you and I have talked and it's like, can we go back in the fog?
Can we know, spend a little more time there because this isn't really fun. But I think it's the same. I think healing and integrating the parts of one story, especially when it's hard and painful requires, you know, a lot of self-compassion, therapy, community. I guess what I've seen on, you know, with your podcast and some of the other online groups that I follow, you know, the sense of community and support. You're not alone.
Oh wow. This happened to me and when I came out of the fog, this happened. This shared collective experience sometimes is really healing and validating. But I think it's also just it's a lot of self-compassion in recognizing this is a process and allowing, yourself to kind of go through the different stages. And I do really think that I liken it to the stages of grief.
Haley Radke: I was wondering about... you, we were joking that sometimes we talk about going back in the fog. I mean, I think just a couple days ago in the Facebook group, we were joking about that again. You and I have talked about this before, like why do some adoptees just never come out of the fog?
Like, why are they, why are there so many happy adoptees that don't even acknowledge a loss. And I remember you saying there's some things like denial and those types of defense mechanisms.
Lesli Johnson: Coping mechanisms, yeah.
Haley Radke: Yeah. That can be really, you know, healthy and helpful. Sure. So I don't wanna drag anyone out of the fog, but can you comment on that a little bit about just living in the fog? Like I, I don't want it to be this...
Lesli Johnson: Club that everyone has to join?
Haley Radke: Yes. And, you know, we talk about the online groups and sometimes there's like an us in them and it's like you're an angry adoptee and you're a happy adoptee. And anyway, can you just comment on that a little bit?
Lesli Johnson: And I know what you're referring to too, is that, that, you know, like all I think social media groups let's you know someone feeling like they have to defend their position.
And so if an adopted person was raised in a family where it wasn't okay to talk a about a adoption and it wasn't talked about, they become conditioned to think it's not significant. And if there's nothing that challenges that significance or challenges that belief that this isn't who I am. You know, sometimes you'll hear say, well, adoption doesn't define me. I mean, I used to say that and it, but it does. I mean, it can't really take the adoption out of me.
But I think sometimes if adoptees are raised in environment or just it absolutely is not talked about or even worse, that there's almost a spoken or unspoken threat that, that you know that you're gonna harm your adoptive parents if you talk about it, that it just becomes easier to just to stay kind of in the fog.
And nobody's really saying that the fog is a bad place to be, but I guess I don't, you know, this is my profession and I think the truth is your friend, whatever the truth is, and that's gonna really set you free. So the fog wasn't a great place for me to be in, but I know for my brother, I think he likes the fog.
You know, my adoptive mom loved the fog. She, I think I've joked with you, is that she's the only person who didn't know I was adopted. So her fog was thick.
Haley Radke: When you're, you know, you're describing your brother and your mother like that, and there's just somehow there is this negative connotation to this terminology and I don't know, I wish it didn't have that, because it's such a nice place to be in, but yes I do want to live in the truth and see things clearly for exactly what they are.
Lesli Johnson: Right, right.
Haley Radke: I don't know, do you, I don't know what I'm trying to get at Leslie, but.
Lesli Johnson: Well, and I think some people do want to be the truth and some people don't or choose not to or don't think they can handle it. Don't think that they have the resources or the strength or the fortitude to go there. So that may also keep people from the, kind of exploration of themselves really. That's really what coming out of the fog is. It's not really about, I mean, it is and it isn't, but it's really about exploration of self.
You know, how did this impact me? How does it impact the people around me? But from, you know, it is really, I think it's connecting the dots of our stories.
Haley Radke: Absolutely. And I think maybe this is where this negative connotation comes in. Because for some of us, we say outta the fog means waking up to 'adoption is the worst;, but that's not the case. It's waking up to the whole reality of adoption and that...
Lesli Johnson: Absolutely.
Haley Radke: I had a loss and also I had a good or bad experience with my adoptive parents and my loss doesn't take away, or, you know, from my relationship with them so having the whole picture.
Lesli Johnson: I mean, I think that's absolutely spot on, correct. And you know, what if this, the term was more, you know, not coming out of the fog but coming into the truth, you know? Cause that's kind of what it is, right?
Haley Radke: Yeah.
Lesli Johnson: Taking away the veils and seeing the truth.
Haley Radke: Well, that's pretty good. That's maybe, that's like your book title.
Lesli Johnson: All right I'll, I don't know. I just thought, I guess I just thought of that as I was, I'm just kind of looking at some notes on my desk and there is a, I think that there is kind of a negative kind of connotation of coming out of the fog. Maybe just speaking about the truth and entering the truth could be a different way of looking at it.
And that's really what we're talking about, you know.
Haley Radke: If I am outta the fog and I'm seeing these true things, I'm seeing the full picture for myself and I'm starting to express some of these feelings and thoughts to my loved ones and they're not really understanding it. Are there ways in which I could discuss these things?
For example with my adoptive parents who I would say are probably mostly in the fog. Are there ways I can engage with them and talk to them about this in a really gentle manner? Again, I don't wanna be the one that drags someone outta the fog.
Lesli Johnson: Right. Well, I think that we, I think we've even talked about this in a previous episode is like, how do we talk about this adoption, and especially adoption trauma and separation trauma? How do we talk about our experience integrating that with the people that we love and care about? And often that just feels arduous. Like, ugh, I have to, do I have to do this? Like, but I think there are ways, I mean, and I always reference back to this podcast, I think this podcast is opening so many people's eyes to the experience of adoption. And I don't just mean for the adoptee, I mean for first parents, I mean for adoptive parents, prospective adoptive parents.
So referencing legitimate sources of education and I definitely think this Adoptees On podcast is, and I think some of the social media groups you know, I love to recommend Anne Heffron's book because I just think it it speaks to our experience. And it seems like there has been a shift where people are wanting to hear from the adoptee.
Haley Radke: I guess there comes a point where this becomes so much of my story that it just leaks into every aspect of my life and other relationships.
Lesli Johnson: Right.
Haley Radke: Because adoption comes up all the time.
Lesli Johnson: Yes.
Haley Radke: It just does. I just finished another book. Right at the end, there was this whole thing with adoption. I'm like, are you kidding me?
Lesli Johnson: No, I totally agree. I, so I think also doing our work, doing our own work is an ongoing process. I think it's a lifelong process. So we're out of the fog. We're doing our own work, and it's kind of like when you get a new car and then you see that car everywhere. You know, like you're driving and you see that same car every, everywhere. Are you really seeing that car more or is it just because you're, you just got that car? Do you know what I mean? That's, it might be a really terrible metaphor.
Haley Radke: No you're primed too. Yeah.
Lesli Johnson: Right. What you're saying about the book that you just read, I mean, I just read. I love reading. I mean, I love reading a whole bunch of books, but I, especially like when I'm not reading books for work or books about adoption, I like reading memoirs that chefs have written or cooks like Julia Child or Jacques Pépin.
And I just read this memoir I'm not gonna get his last name but the, he was adopted. And a couple nights ago, watching a movie that wasn't about adoption, but at the very end it turned into, it turned into a movie about adoption. So I get what you're saying and it's like, oh my gosh, it's everywhere.
Haley Radke: Those conversation starters are also everywhere.
Lesli Johnson: Right.
Haley Radke: And of course for me, this podcast and is kind of. Everywhere in my life.
Lesli Johnson: Yes. Course.
Haley Radke: So talking about that, but for my listeners, when you're just having conversations with your friends and family and somebody says something positive about adoption or someone else's adoption experience, do they have an opportunity to bring something up and start a dialogue? Or is it just one more thing that you're like, Ugh, that kind of triggered me. I don't wanna say anything and there's just one more positive thing about adoption I don't wanna hear right now.
Lesli Johnson: Right. I would say it's a case by case, instance by instance, dinner party by dinner party, holiday by holiday scenario. So it that there isn't just a one, one-off answer, but in each instance, is there an opportunity? Do you feel like educating someone ? Or do you intentionally decide you're just not up for it? Sitting at the dinner table and something about adoption comes up.
Maybe you're just, maybe you make that intentional decision, like I'm, I just don't. I'm not engaging in, I don't wanna engage in this right now.
Haley Radke: Or if you're feeling feisty.
Lesli Johnson: Yeah.
Haley Radke: Maybe you too.
Lesli Johnson: Yeah. An opportunity to educate. You know?
Haley Radke: So good. So if you could, would you really, Leslie, would you really go back in the fog?
Lesli Johnson: Absolutely not. I really wouldn't. No. No.
Haley Radke: Sometimes I think I would like it for a day, but living in. Really seeing all of the different aspects of what I've experienced and what my birth mother and my dad, and like my adoptive parents have experienced, and generationally what my kids are now going to experience.
Lesli Johnson: Yeah.
Haley Radke: And what my biological grandparents have experienced. I couldn't put that away. I wouldn't wanna lose that, and I wanna live in the truth and the light.
Lesli Johnson: Yeah. I agree. I wouldn't, in part, I wouldn't even be, I wouldn't have the privilege of doing the work that I do if I went back into the fog and I just don't think my life experience would feel as kind of rich. So yeah. I'll stay outta the fog.
Haley Radke: Okay. We can be in the Sunshine Buddies.
Lesli Johnson: Right. It's a deal. It's a deal.
Haley Radke: Even though as we're recording this, you are living in sunshine and I am living in the snow, so.
Lesli Johnson: I know. I'm sorry, I wish I could send a little your way. It is pretty sunny here.
Haley Radke: I would take it. Well, thank you so much for this great conversation and .
Lesli Johnson: Thank you for the work that you're doing and I mean, I speak for myself, but I also speak for our community.
Haley Radke: Thank you. I appreciate that. Where can we connect with you online?
Lesli Johnson: You can connect with me. My website is www.yourmindfulbrain.com. Twitter at Leslie a Johnson, l e a s l i a Johnson and Instagram, your mindful brain.
Haley Radke: Wonderful. Thank you, Leslie. Thank you.
This show is brought to you by my Patreon partners. Patreon is a site that allows creators like me to raise monthly support to help me keep producing this podcast for you. As a special thank you for a monthly pledge, I have a secret Facebook group that is for adoptees only, where we support each other through search and reunion issues, and we get really real about things we are struggling with, like coming under the fog.
Come and join us. Adopteeson.com/partner has all the details. I have a special message from a fellow adoptee to share with you.
(Recorded voice of Mary Jane Huang) Hi haley. My name is Mary Jane Huang and I am a Taiwanese adoptee from Taipei Taiwan. I'm also a social worker and a board certified music therapist. I love your podcast. So many of the stories your guests share and their experiences deeply resonate with me, and I especially love your healing through the Expressive Art series.
I find healing through music and writing, and I recently had my first book published a memoir called Beyond Two Worlds, a Taiwanese American Adoptee's memoir and Search for Identity. So I was raised to believe I was one race, but after finding my adoption papers, which my adoptive parents hid, I learned that the story my parents told me was not true, and I had a completely different heritage.
So this of course set me off on a journey to find answers, and I eventually reunited with my birth family in taipei in 2012. I also think that underlying this story is a common theme that many adoptees share, and that is of loss. You can purchase the book amazon.com, Barnes and Noble online, as well as indiebound.org, and at my website Beyond Two Worlds. That's T w o worlds.com. Thank you so much for letting me share this with your listeners. I look forward to listening to more of your wonderful podcasts.
(Haley Radke Speaking) Thanks, Mary Jane. If you are an adoptee and would like to tell us about your book or blog or whatever you're working on, head over to adopteeson.com/connect and click on the microphone. I love to hear your voices.
Today would you tell one person about the show? It's literally by word of mouth that podcasts are able to grow their audience if you are able to do that for me, it's just such a huge help to raise up adoptee voices worldwide. I'm so grateful for you. Thank you for listening.
Let's talk again next Friday.
