88 Fathers
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You are listening to Adoptees On the podcast where Adoptees discuss the adoption experience. This is season four, episode 20 fathers. I'm your host, Haley Radke. This is part two of our Season four finale. If you missed last week's episode, press pause right here. Go back and listen to Janet Weinreich-Keall incredible story of her 21 year search and her unbelievable strength and resilience throughout. Its amazing. That's season four, episode 19.
Now today, Janet and I have a phone call with both of her dads and I'm gonna warn you right now, go grab some Kleenex cuz you're gonna need it. We are gonna wrap up with recommended resources and as always, links to everything we'll be talking about today are on the website, AdopteesOn.com.
Make sure you stay with me after the interview with Janet and her dad's for a few special surprises as we wrap up season four and I'm gonna share some news about what's coming up next for AdopteesOn.com. Let's listen in.
I am so pleased to welcome back to adoptees on Janet Weinreich-Keall. Welcome back Janet.
Janet Weinreich-Keall: Hi Haley. Thanks for having me today.
Haley Radke: Yes, so excited to talk with you again and we have two special guests, also, both of your dads, so we have Gordon here.
Hi
Emil Weinreich: Haley. Thanks for having me.
Hi.
Haley Radke: Welcome and Emil welcome.
Emil Weinreich: Thanks, Hailey. It's good to be here with you.
Haley Radke: I'm so excited about our conversation because we so rarely hear from fathers. And Janet's story's unusual because, Emil, you didn't even know you had a daughter. So why don't we start there? How about you just tell us a little bit about how you received the news.
I'm assuming it was your wife that said something to you because Janet had the phone call with her. So can you just start us right there?
Emil Weinreich: Yes, I can. Yeah, you're right. My wife received the call on April the 30th, a Sunday evening, last year, and talked to Janet for about an hour, I believe, and then she called me.
I was at work in Manitoba for a month away. And the first thing that Catherine said to me is, Emil, you really need to listen to what I have to tell you. This is really important. The first thing that went into my mind was, we had a problem with hot water tank, or there was a problem with the house, so then she continued to describe the conversation she had with Janet that evening, and I listened to her, but I didn't really believe that I was part of this story because I remember the years, back in 1977, 78, quite well, and for me to actually believe that she was my daughter was, I just couldn't get it on my head, because it just didn't fit in to anything that I conceived of.
It just wasn't there at all. So I said to Catherine, I says I'll tell you what I'm going to do. I'm going to write a letter to Janet, and I'm gonna explain to her, what the life of her biological mother was when I was with her for a year and a half. And give her some more information on the circumstances of her life and maybe other acquaintances she would've known, and the year's history, so that she would have something to go on and to move her research on.
So that wasn't the first thing in my mind. I thought, that's fine. And I thought, this is something I would have to be a little bit careful about too, because I'm gonna have to let her down a little bit gently, because I could also sense that this was something that was very important to her. And I never liked being the barer of bad news or that type of thing.
So I, I started to compose a letter and it started to explain to her what the situation was. And before I really got started with it an email came from Janet. Onto my computer screen with the the usual ping, that you hear when an email comes in. And I opened the email and the very first thing that started to get me, hairs that started to go up in the back of my neck was when I saw her biological mother's name in print.
Now to hear it is one thing, but to see it in print is it does carry some weight with it. I read the letter and I thought, okay, I I can see what's, that you are, definitely trying to find your biological father. And I think I could still maybe fill you in on what's going on.
Now with that email Janet had sent three pictures one of her family and two of herself, and I just opened up the first picture and yeah, it it threw me back. I knew at that moment I really knew it, that she was my daughter. I could see my resemblance and yeah, it was definitely something I'll always remember, at 62 years old to suddenly find this out.
And it, it's one of these things that you just cannot make sense in your mind. It just does not compute, but you can't get around similarities in the picture, and so that really threw me back. Now, after that, I really had to take a deep breath and, just sit down for a few minutes and find some quiet time for myself to just, recover from literally a shock, and to pull myself together.
Now in the email, Janet had left me her phone number and I wasn't quite ready to phone her back. Right then it was, and it was actually a good thing that Catherine, my wife, talked to her first because I don't think I could have dealt with that phone call, as first contact.
I think it would've been just, it would've been hard. So I called my wife back to talk to her about it, and I said to Catherine, I said, do you see what I see? Referring to the pictures? And she said, yes, she is your daughter. And I said, I just wanted to confirm that you were seeing what I was seeing, because at that point in time, you just can't, you don't know whether you're thinking clearly or not, so we had a good conversation me and Catherine, and. I settled back after that and I just was in my room for a while, just took some quiet time. I think it must have been maybe an hour, maybe close to maybe two hours.
I'm not too sure, but it took me quite a while to actually pick up the phone and called Janet back. I do remember it taking me three tries, because I kept getting the phone number. I just could not dial the phone number correctly. I was always missing a number. There was something going wrong.
It just wasn't happening. Yeah, it just, it was terrible because, I knew that, when Janet picked the phone up that I would be talking to my daughter for the very first time, in my life. To get to that point, yeah, it definitely takes some, oh, I don't know. You really have to pull yourself together to be able to even do it, and knowing it was such a special moment, I sat in the dark room. I didn't have any lights on, and I had my eyes closed when she picked up the phone and then it started, and off it went. Now, for me, I would have to say that I did have the advantage because, I knew that, she was my daughter at that time.
I didn't require a DNA test, and I didn't need any further proof from my side whatsoever. But I also knew from her side that she, how do, how would she recognize family resemblance and so on. So I kept that in mind very much so as we were talking and from the week after, as. But it was a very tender time.
For sure. Very tender time.
Haley Radke: Wow. Okay. So this is like such a monumental moment in both of your lives and I, Janet, I know you were keeping your parents in the loop and so Gordon, you know some of this stuff is happening and I think that a lot of adoptive parents when their adoptees are searching for biological family, it can be really difficult on adoptive parents and some of them may feel like I don't know what the right word is, but just a little bit nervous or unsettled.
You want what's best for your child and you, even if they're an adult. And yet you still wanna protect them and keep them from getting hurt. And what were some of the things going on for you when, when Janet's been searching for years and years and now she's getting some answers?
Gordon Keall: It was like 20 years in the search. Yep. And when she finally told me about Emil and everything, and I said to her that's really good news. I wanted to hear that because one of my main thoughts was if something was to happen to her medically or whatever, we never had a background on her.
And it was important to me that she find her background and know her medical history. And when it all happened, it was a great relief. And to talk to Emil and see how much similarities him and I have and the care and the love that comes from it. It was just amazing. There's such a common bond, and Emil was worried about me accepting him as to Janet's biological father.
And I says, you have no reason to worry about that whatsoever. And tried to reassure 'em that there's nothing wrong with that. I think it's just wonderful. And from there we picked it up and started making phone calls and talking to each other and sharing our feelings, our thoughts and our love for each other.
And that just grew from there.
Haley Radke: Gordon. That's really awesome. It also seems unusual. And can you just talk a little bit about. I think some adoptive parents feel really insecure like that they're gonna have, either some love taken away from them or some time taken away from them, or, that it's gonna hinder their relationship somehow.
But how are you able to just be open arms and accepting and build this really neat relationship that you have with Emil
Gordon Keall: Maybe it's just the kind of a person I am a caring, loving person and I just wanted to make sure that he wasn't gonna be hurt at the other end as well. And I had no qualms about it whatsoever.
And it just all fell together like it was meant to be. It was wonderful.
Haley Radke: Wow. Okay. Janet, do you have thoughts on this? Because you've been watching, what's happening on both sides.
Janet Weinreich-Keall: Yes. And not only that, I come into this reunion that is just coming off of one of the most wildest adoption reunion abandonment stories actually known on the planet, right?
Yeah. And then also layer on top of that, I have a lot of other friends that are adoptees or family, and let me tell you, their reunions, some of them might go well, but especially when it comes to the men, whether it's the fact that the men are not vocal enough or saying how they're feeling through the experience, or maybe it's just been a bad experience.
Typically, the experience is not what we've had with Emil and Gordon, right? For me I think I had said this in our call earlier, I recognized very early on that, okay, wait a minute, fine, yes, this is my story. I get that. And yes, this is my search and this is my right to know the reason why I'm living.
But Gordon. Yes. He did not make my life, but he made my life what it is today. So what I did from the very early onset of learning about Emil's name is telling him, and also my mom Jerrilyn, as soon as possible. And I guess I would say that I've seen a lot of adoptees miss that point. Like they get so wrapped up and it's so emotional and it's so busy.
They go, oh, it's me and my feelings. My feelings. But again, I guess I've gone through the search for so long, I already was like, okay, wait a minute. This is the fatherhood side. This is Gordon's story too, right? So from the minute I was calling Emil that day, I remember I texted you dad and said, Hey, I'm calling Emil. PS you're always my dad, and I love you.
Now I'm, a 39 year old woman. We have a very good relationship. Was that really necessary? I don't know, but I just didn't care. I figured, Hey, I'm saying it, I want him to feel included. I want him to feel secure. I don't know what I'm going to find. And then as the conversations with Emil came along, I, it didn't matter.
It was 2:00 AM my time because I'm all the way in the east here. Could I have gone to bed that night and left everybody hanging? I could have, but instead I got on the phone. Told Gordon everything I knew about Emil and next steps. And, again, just really bringing him into the fold and really reassuring him that, hey, nothing's changing here.
And, I would say that I have seen that missed a lot with adoptees with their fathers and I can't really explain why. Maybe it's just because there's more of an emphasis on mothers in Reunion.
Haley Radke: Yeah. That's interesting to think about. And I think a lot of us keep it separate.
I've interviewed adoptees who have reunited with first families and haven't told their adoptive families until even as much as a year or years later. And some who have never, never shared.
Janet Weinreich-Keall: Wow.
Haley Radke: Yeah. And I think often in those cases, their relationship probably with their adoptive parents isn't quite as close as you've got. That's my podcaster expert opinion.
Janet Weinreich-Keall: Yeah.
Haley Radke: As far as, as much as that's worth. But yeah. I, yeah. Yeah. Okay. That's really interesting. And Emil, when you're hearing from, Janet and and her parents just like this, these open arms, and how does that, help you in adding yourself into this family?
It's like a, it's like another kind of marriage, right? You're just adding a whole 'nother set of in-laws or whatever, I don't know what's the right terminology for that.
Emil Weinreich: I've been, yeah. I don't know what it is, but I've been thinking about it. I haven't come up with one yet, but, Oh yeah. I would say that Gordon and Jerrilyn today are family to me. In a very intimate way. And I do love Gordon, and I do love Jerrilyn very much. Cause if you can imagine, I'm a 22 year old boy in Prince Rupert. I've just finished my, post-secondary education. I've got a good job, things are happening and things are going well with my girlfriend.
And, 40 years later I discovered that, halfway through her relationship, she abandoned our daughter. And, that hurt me a lot. But at the same time I realized today that, Gordan and Jerrilyn stepping into my life and Janet's life in January of 1978 was the best thing that ever happened to us.
And it's something I cannot describe how grateful I am and how much I love Janet's parents, for that. It's, it is, it's a very emotional thought, to realize that your daughter, was abandoned. And I had no idea whatsoever. And Gordon and Jerrilyn stepped in literally into my shoes and raised my daughter as their own.
And with the love and care that I know they have, you just can't describe the emotion that I feel on that alone, and even today, I realize that Gordon and Jerrilyn are Janet's mom and dad, there's no question in my mind about it. And I respect that both dearly. And to have Gordon accept me and his life is really what I would want.
And I thought about it before too, Haley, that Gordon and Jerrilyn have always wanted the best for their daughter. And I look at myself today, and I also want the best. So it really is a common ground that we both. It draws us together as family. We're thinking the same thing, that we do want the best for our children.
And yeah it's something that I feel very deeply. Yeah. To say that I love Gordon is very true. And I can say that freely, over the year or in private. It's just something that, it's there. It's just the way it is. We've spent time together and Gordon and I have talked on occasion and we've shed tears together and it's been emotional.
We, we don't tend to be the men that, that pat around on the bush or try to pretend it's something other than it is. And that's what makes I think our relationship so strong as well, that we're not afraid to let our guard down. And either one of us have nothing to prove. It's just a wonderful place to be in my life.
And if I do think about it I'm actually glad that Gordon and Jerrilyn are in my life because having two sets of parents for Janet is, takes a lot of pressure off me. It does. It just feels good.
Haley Radke: You've got the unique position of you don't have other children and so you're learning how to be a dad at your age. So you've got, some helpers now.
Emil Weinreich: I do have some helpers, and, it's a funny thing too. You look at I, I think, for fatherhood for Gordon is certainly one thing because, he's good at it and, he was able to step into it. And for me it happened, one evening last year and it was instant.
But I think I'm pretty much like Gordon. I'm a very loving per person as well. And I also understand what fatherhood means. I was raised in a family ... I had a wonderful mother and I had a wonderful father, so I could see a loving home. And the support, I had as a child and as I grew up, was unconditional love and they were always there, so I, I had a good I dunno how you would say it.
Haley Radke: Role models.
Emil Weinreich: Yeah. Role models. Yeah. For my parents. And very much and even today, it's yeah, it, their imprint on me carries my love towards, my daughter Janet, and her mother and father as well. Even today. It does.
Gordon Keall: Thank you.
Emil Weinreich: So we, yeah, and I do mean that Gordon, and I've never had a problem ever thinking that or telling to you personally when we do get together or we do sometimes wander down that road. And it does get emotional sometimes with me and Gordon, and I have no problem with that at all, because what I found, Haley, in this whole experience for myself is that, yeah, it's been very emotional for me.
I've had lots of tears, but I go there and to feel the emotion has been very healing for me as well. It really has. Yeah.
Haley Radke: Yeah. I do wanna ask you one more question about that, and then I have a question for Gordon, but can you talk a little bit about that? How have you processed some of this healing? Because, as you said, you're girlfriend of the time abandoned Janet and finding that out, I just, I feel sick to my stomach when I, hear that part of the story. And I don't have a connection with her. Yes. So can you just talk a little bit about that?
Emil Weinreich: Surprisingly my first reaction was shock. And I didn't actually have an opinion at that time about my girlfriend at the time. Now, as soon as the shock wore off, I pretty well went into a mode of forgiveness. Pretty well right away. For a couple of reasons. First of all, I've seen so many people in the past where they go down a road of feeling of betrayal or, hatred or and so on, and it consumes them to the point where, they just can't get it out of their system.
I realized very quickly and for myself that yes, I could take these feelings into this relationship, but it's not what I want to do. I will not bring those feelings of anger and betrayal any further than where they were left. And my relationship with Gordon and Jerrilyn and Janet and my wife Catherine, will not be influenced by the actions that Janet's biological mother had back in 1977.
And it is something that will never happen in my life. And and I can say that from two sides. That first of all, it will never happen. And secondly, it's the way I feel. So it's not like I have to even put any effort into it. Yeah. Because the damage has been done. And I'm also stepping into a role of the father, and I think Gordon can believe me on this one, is that yes, we do the best for our children and our families.
And that's part of it is that we do not bring that in, it's a time for healing and bringing families together. And I'd like to add this as well, Haley, is that, people would probably look at that, this story and say yes, Janet has found her biological father, Emil, and they're having a wonderful relationship.
But it's so much more than that, my wife Catherine is involved Gordon and Jerrilyn. Janet's brothers, sister. I have grandsons, Janet's husband, Todd. There's just so much coming together on this that you have to include everybody. It's not just between me and Janet.
That may have been the first week or the first few days, but as time has moved on, I quickly realized that to be, have it healthy for Janet means having it healthy for Gordon and Jerrilyn. Healthy for my wife, Catherine. Todd. Everybody has to feel included as family. I think that's another reason why we've been so successful.
For myself. Haley, I cannot pick up the phone anytime during the week and I can phone to Gordon or Jerrilyn. And when I do call 'em, I'm completely relaxed and I'm looking forward to the conversation. There's nothing stiff about it, or there's nothing that is beside me that says, geez, you haven't talked to Gordon in a few days.
Maybe I should give him a call because I'm supposed to. There's none of that kind of stuff going on. I love to talk to Gordon and enjoy your conversations, and also feel a connection with him.
Haley Radke: That must feel good to hear Gordon.
Gordon Keall: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it was really it's really good to hear. Emil is such a wonderful, caring person and the love goes a long way.
Haley Radke: Gordon, do you have any advice for other people that might be navigating reunion in some fashion? I expressed earlier sometimes it's a little more tricky building a relationship in these circumstances. And so do you have advice for people who might be not in as good a places as you guys are? Anything that they could do to repair things that maybe aren't as healthy as, you guys have?
Gordon Keall: The thing is, you've just got to do it and let your emotions roll, and just make the initial contact and you'll be surprised how things flow. And with Emil and I, it, it worked wonders.
Perhaps not for everyone. But unless you try, you don't know. And it's important with family and everything and says it involves a lot of people. I think that yeah, you just gotta go for it.
Haley Radke: And Janet, do you have any thoughts on that? How have you guys built out this extended family, which really is what it is now?
Janet Weinreich-Keall: Yeah. I'll be honest, Haley come on. Look at the story, right? And how long I searched. And then of course, okay, I find my biological mother and she passed away before I could even say, Hey, who you, who were you dating? What do you know? What can you tell me? I really felt, especially in terms of finding my biological father, that it really wasn't going to happen.
I just wanna just trail on what Gordon was just saying because, and I'm sorry to say this dad, but you're just too humble. So I'm gonna say it for him. He just always says, oh, it's just me. I'm just being me. But, I think that really what Gordon and Emil have done is something that I think a lot of...
I'm just gonna go on a win and say it, a lot of men struggle with in terms of, going into a scenario with an ego -less, very selfless openness towards an experience to say, Hey, wait a minute. The only threat is the threat I conjure up in my head. What if I really was to go into this scenario because I love my daughter? The daughter that I committed to raise from the time that I brought her into my home?
And what if I just went in with an open heart? And great, maybe I won't jive with that person, but does that actually really matter? Because really all that matters is showing respect to the people who made my life possible, right? And then from Emil's perspective, that too is also very important.
And he too came with the same mindset of just this real no fear and no ego and just love and openness. Who is this man that raised my daughter? Like there, there wasn't this closedness and sort of these preconceived notions, or even him whipping himself up into this emotional turmoil to think, oh, maybe he's like this or like that.
There wasn't any of that. It was just so open and fluid, and all that translates back to is me, right? Because when I think fathers, whether they're biological or adoptive, behave in such a way together, and also apart, what does that tell the child, right? It shows the most utmost respect that you really can for a life.
And I think that's really what it boils down in reunion. Because again not everybody can necessarily have this kind of relationship that Gordon and Emil have, and also not everybody can even be friends in life. And you know what? That's okay, right? Again, when it comes to Reunion, you have to look at what does this mean?
And for me, it meant finding answers and respecting those answers. At no point did Gordon and Jerrilyn ever turn away from this experience. And what I mean by that is they never shied away from the uncomfortable truth. And really what I'm trying to say is, early 1978, Gordon and Jerrilyn came up and brought this mystery baby home.
They knew that my parents were out there, but what could they do? They had to. And then 39 years later, we finally find this man. And it's just so amazing because the first thought Gordon had was, Hey, so beside me, let's co-father. It's just remarkable. Yeah. Isn't it remarkable?
Haley Radke: Yes. It's, it is. And I'm just, I'll just, I'll gush a little bit for you because I'm just so happy for you, Janet. Because you put in so many years of work searching and to find some of the very difficult things you've uncovered. Yeah. And then to have this like beautiful reunion that also includes your parents and I'm just so thrilled for you because, there's so many of us that don't have a beautiful resolution like that.
And it's not a res, it's not a resolution, it's another beginning to your story. Yeah. Yeah.
Janet Weinreich-Keall: Yeah. I just wanna add one last thing though, because it really goes in the same vein of what Emil was saying earlier about including everybody. Because, I have a lot of people that write me and follow my story, and they always say the same thing.
They say, wow, you're so lucky. And, I have a hard time with that because, Sure. Yeah. Okay. Is it amazing and is it, absolutely just like a dream almost. But it really is only because everybody wants this. Everybody is on the same page. Nobody comes to the table with ego and issues.
And Yes, we can talk about, and we can acknowledge that yes, what happened all those years ago was not right and should have never happened. And I love that we're actually able to do that because I need my loss acknowledge too, right? But really, when we talk about lucky, it's actually really just a choice.
Gordon has made the choice to be this man, and Emil has made this choice to be this man. And Catherine has. Her choice, and Jerrilyn and my children and my partner. It just goes on and on. Really it's just a matter of everybody coming together to just make such a beautiful ending, really.
Haley Radke: Yes. Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate you saying those things. Okay, thank you so much each of you for sharing all of your pieces of your story with us. And just really speaking from the heart, I, my mascara is were a little bit runny, I will say that. Okay. So let's go ahead and do our recommended resources.
Janet and I both have something. Gordon, do you have anything you wanna say or are you gonna pass on this one?
Gordon Keall: I think I'm gonna pass.
Haley Radke: Okay. And Emil did you have anything you wanted to share?
Emil Weinreich: I think when people do enter into reunion And I'm just speaking for myself because I can't really speak for anybody else, but I feel that you need to be very honest and transparent in everybody's lives because me coming into Gordon and Jerrilyn's life, they don't know who I am, and even coming on to a podcast like this, saying to them, look, this is who Emil is.
He's got nothing to hide. He is who he is. Also in the reunion, I've always acknowledged Janet's the pain and the hurt that she has had and her life. Knowing that, and it has hurt me as well, Haley, to, to realize that I have, I had a child out there that thought that she wasn't wanted by a biological parent. And so to have her and myself and the pain I have and the pain that she has and the thoughts that I have as well, I think have been very good. And it's not that, and sometimes, I've thought that this is something Janet needs to hear, but it's more than that. It's something that I need to tell her. That she's always, she would've always been loved and she would've always been wanted in my life and have her feel secure in the relationship that we're building today.
And these are my feelings toward her as my daughter. And my love has always been, would always have been unconditional. And it is today for her and her family, which is Gordon and Jerrilyn, everybody. Yeah.
Haley Radke: Thank you. And Janet, do you wanna respond to that or give us your resource or both?
Janet Weinreich-Keall: Yeah, I have to say that is one thing, especially, like I've talked about before, that sort of slight difference of foundling and adoptee, for Emil to already intuitively know that, Hey, wait a minute, my daughter does need to hear this.
She does need that reassurance. She does need that feeling that, okay, I'm not going to abandon you again. Now again, I say again, he did not abandon me. Okay, let's make that very clear. But he is part of that bucket. It brings up that same feeling, that same emotion and worry and angst that, oh where do I stand? Where are we going? What are we doing? That type of thing.
For example, when they were visiting me here in P.E.I. And they left, I actually felt like I was being abandoned again, which I just couldn't even believe that I was having these feelings at 40 years old just because I saw his car drive away.
It really brought out those very primal feelings of loss and abandonment. So I have to say that, yes Emil is so emotionally expressive and available and he's certainly been just so open and his words have just flowed so well for me to finally hear at 40 years old, that, Hey, wait a minute. Yes, fine. This woman who carried you, abandoned you, but I didn't abandon you. Incredibly powerful. And, and that's the other side of it too.
If adoptive fathers, or sorry, biological fathers are out there listening to this, you can't really get that from any other source except from the source. I've been doing therapy a long time. I've got very loving parents. Very secure relationships. But to hear that from a biological parent, oh, I tell you, it's it's just so appealing.
Haley Radke: Nothing like that. Yep. I agree.
Janet Weinreich-Keall: There's nothing like it. No. So I do have a recommended resort.
It is a book that I've read several times by Buddhist Nun and writer Pema Chödrön. It is called When Things Fall Apart, Heart Advice for Difficult Times. Now, I know that's not adoption centric, but I have found it to be really great by a way, as a reminder that, time is always flowing, things are always changing, and nothing's permanent. So that's a really great resource that I lean on.
Haley Radke: Oh, that's so interesting. Thank you. I, look, I checked it out when you sent it to me ahead of time, and it looks so helpful, so thanks. That's awesome. Yeah. So I have two. First of all, I really have appreciated Janet, following your story in on social media because you have this beautiful way, I'm gonna call it micro blogging from Instagram and Facebook, sharing your story, sharing little vignettes, and I think it's been really powerful for a lot of people who are just curious about your story anyway, but have no connection to adoption.
I see them following you and seeing you unpack these different things. And so I think people should definitely be following you on Instagram and Facebook, and we'll give you the links to all those things in a second. And the other thing I really wanted to bring to this conversation, I was like, okay, I've gotta find the best father reunion, something themed, recommended resource, gonna be so perfect.
And I'm looking and I'm just like, I can't find it. I can't find it.
Janet Weinreich-Keall: I know. I've often said to Emil and Gordon, we have to write a book.
Haley Radke: Yes, please.
Janet Weinreich-Keall: I'm not really joking actually, I just so you guys know, I'll do the heavy lifting.
Haley Radke: Yeah. So I, so yes, you guys great. You get on that. That's perfect. And in the meantime, while we're waiting for Janet to finish writing up this book, if you have something that you think this is awesome, dads should really be reading this first dads, adoptive, dads will you send it to us? So go to adopts on.com/connect. You can find all of our social media links and any resources that you send that are father related, I will put them on the show notes for this episode and hopefully we can build up a few.
It's just so lacking, we've said several times we're so focused on. First mothers and finding our mothers and most of the reunion stories and things we hear are all centered around mothers. And so I'm just, again, so thankful that you guys were able to share your story with us. And yeah, I'm hoping that some of the listeners will have some good ideas for us.
Okay. So thank you again, Janet. Where can we connect with you online?
Janet Weinreich-Keall: So I am all over. I am on Facebook Instagram and Twitter. I also have a website, so on Facebook and Instagram, you can find me at Janet Weinreich-Keall. Twitter is JanetRWK, and my website is JanetWeinreichkeall.com.
Haley Radke: Perfect. And if people would like to send Gordon or Emma a note, they can just connect with you on social and you'll connect them.
Janet Weinreich-Keall: Yeah, absolutely.
Haley Radke: Wonderful. Thank you, all three of you for sharing again with us. Just so honored to have been a part of this convers.
Gordon Keall: Thank you.
Janet Weinreich-Keall: Yeah, thank you, Haley.
Emil Weinreich: Yeah, it was nice to be here with you, Haley.
Haley Radke: Thank you.
Ugh, wasn't that a great conversation? I just had such a great time listening to them. I just, such a special, intimate moment that they shared with us. I'm so grateful for that opportunity to share that conversation with you. Now, we touched on this a couple times about like, where are the fathers and where are the resources for them?
And so I asked one of our favorite guests to come and just chat with me a little bit about that. So let's listen in to my conversation with her. I'm so pleased to welcome back to Adoptees On, Anne Heffron. Hi Anne.
Anne Heffron: Hey, Haley.
Haley Radke: I, this is so last minute. I know, but I just wanted to talk to you a little bit just about dads in adoption land. I feel like they're missing, where are all the first dads? Where are they?
Anne Heffron: That, isn't that a good question? When did you, because I didn't even think, I didn't even realize I had a father until, maybe in my tw-, maybe even in my thirties. I never wondered about the father. Did you?
Haley Radke: I don't think I thought about him much. Sorry, dad. I know you listened to this. It really, yeah, it really was about finding my birth mother. And even then, when Reunion went south, it wasn't really on my radar, and I, here, this is I don't know, should I have been this or not?
It was one of those things where I thought she re she really doesn't wanna have a relationship with me. Why would my dad? He like, didn't carry me with a pregnancy.
Anne Heffron: Yeah.
Haley Radke: I think there's another disconnect for us. That's my experience. I don't know. What brought your dad to your mind even later on?
Anne Heffron: It's so funny. It, it wasn't until, it wasn't until the whole birth mother thing, just like you, I think it wasn't until that whole went through, and then it was who's next? If I can't have her, what else is there? And then, but then it was like a surprise. Oh my gosh.
And then I started to realize that not thinking about him didn't mean it didn't affect me. I think after high school, when I was starting to be affected by adoption in ways that I wasn't even realizing I had an easier time being friends with men than with women. And it wasn't until much later that I thought that perhaps it had something to do with adoption.
Like some part of my brain didn't trust women thinking that they would go away. But thinking that there was, when I realized there was a man out there and that I could possibly have a father figure who mirrored me made me realize that also perhaps I had issues with men that I didn't even really realize I had those issues.
How can you choose a husband? People say that you choose a husband, like it's your relationship with your father helps you, the quality of your, the choice that you make for a husband. And how can you do that if you have a dad who actually hasn't mirrored you genetically? I know some people can, but I didn't feel entirely like myself cuz I don't think my dad entirely mirrored me in the same way.
He did a really good job, but it just was different. And my first husband was Asian. My, it's like I picked someone different.
Haley Radke: Yeah. That's interesting. I haven't thought about that before.
Anne Heffron: And I, and, but I think so much of it is subconscious. And I think that just bringing this to light, the fact that adoptees have both a birth mom and a birth dad and holding, holding men responsible.
I joked that I wanna sue my birth father for a hit and run because the men, really, they can cause a lot of damage. The women have to, they have to take time off school. If they're young, they, and the men can just, they just don't, they don't have to do anything.
Haley Radke: Yeah. Yeah.
Anne Heffron: It's incredible.
Haley Radke: Yeah. And there's there's no signature on my papers. There's only hers. And then you think about fathers that find out later on that their whatever, ex-girlfriend or something gave up a child for adoption and then they have no recourse. And it's a shocking thing. But then I'm also curious, what do you think about this?
Now this is all highly speculative, non-scientific talk between us.
Anne Heffron: That's my favorite.
Haley Radke: Yes. But also, mostly it's adoptees that initiate searching. But some first mothers do. Some first mothers search. And try and reconnect with their lost children. But I think it's really unusual for the dads to do that. I've heard of a couple of cases, however, it's unusual.
Anne Heffron: Yeah.
Haley Radke: Where are they? Do they wonder where their kids are? Or are they just able to compartmentalize more than women can?
Anne Heffron: Isn't that, I think the unknown is really scary and I imagine, I certainly don't know of any stories of a man searching for, I would love to hear them, but I haven't heard any.
But I think it must be really frightening if you were a man and you knew that you had a child out there. What if the child, it's almost like why people are afraid to search for their birth mom or their first mom. What if she's crazy? What if she wants my money? What if... people have all these fears that keep them from searching.
What if it's the same for the men? And also maybe there's shame. I don't, I honestly, I, it's funny. I heard once that when babies are born they look more like the father than the mother, so that it was from caveman days, so the fathers wouldn't run away.
Who knows? That's probably just a big rumor, but it makes sense. Like what person, wants this baby that's going to be demanding and a guy is just gonna wanna say, I gotta go fishing, honey. Women are made to feed the children. So the women must be more biologically dialed in to stay, where a man is just, isn't his job to propagate, not just, isn't he like Johnny Appleseed? Sorry, dad.
Really I, I think men and women are so different. How do you think it could go better? How do you think it could go better?
Haley Radke: There's always the end of adoption. That is hard to say, really. I don't know. And I feel so fortunate in my reunion with my dad because, we've worked through a lot of things and, he stuck in there. His, we had that episode with his wife who, decided to stick to it.
Anne Heffron: So good. What a lovely person.
Haley Radke: Yeah. So I feel really, yeah. Fortunate. And I know there's lots of radis. Just go real south fast. So it's, I don't know I don't have an answer for that. And I guess with all this, speculating that we're doing with the conversation I'm hopeful that some of you will come back and share your thoughts.
And where are the dads? Where are the first dads in adoptee rights, in adoption land? We need more of you to speak up and share your stories and. I remember when I was talking with, I think Liz Latty and I talked a little bit about this in her episode about fathers, because she's in reunion with her biological father.
And the fathers that are around aren't speaking up enough in advocacy, like we see, like Concerned United Birth Parents. We went to that retreat right together. And it was near, near almost exclusively mothers. And our father, like, where are they? Where are you? How do we get more fathers involved?
How do we get more interested men to speak up for father's rights? And I think it's really important, and you haven't heard this yet because it's episodes not out but when I talk with Janet and Emil and Gordon in the recommended resources segment, I said to them, I'm like, I wanted to bring a really great resource for us in Reunion with our dads, or something to do with biological fathers.
And I just couldn't find anything, and I called for please come and tell us your resources. And isn't that sad that I couldn't even find something?
Anne Heffron: I mean there was Janet's great story of when she called her dad and he kept or he was afraid to talk to her cause he was afraid he was gonna cry.
And then he, and then his wife encouraged him, and then he did call and he did cry. And I wonder if there is like that emotional, I wonder if it's emotionally even too hard for so many men to even think about. Haley, it's so beyond my comprehension, why there aren't more men searching for their children. And I feel like there's there's facts that I'm missing or there's a way of thinking that I don't get. And I'm just, I imagine her dad, that, for so many I know I'm grouping people together, but if you think of... men are less willing to be emotionally vulnerable than women, like as a group generally.
And search and reunion is so difficult emotionally, that, I wonder if it's, I wonder if they just, they don't have the tools. I don't, is it just not in their vocabulary to talk about it? Do you know does it, you know how there was a group of, I think a Native American and they'd never, ever seen a boat, and then a boat came on the horizon and they didn't see it because they didn't even, they had, it didn't exist in their mind, so they couldn't even process what it was, so they didn't see.
And I wonder somehow if we haven't been talking about this issue as a culture that men can't even see that exists because there aren't the words, what's the word for missing a child that you created but you never met, and you didn't ba you didn't bear it. You didn't carry it. Women suffer to give birth. Men actually just have a good time.
Haley Radke: My husband almost threw up.
Anne Heffron: Oh, I meant actually in the Creation Act. Cause these men, I thought that's also what you're talking about.
Haley Radke: No, I'm sorry. No, I meant in the delivery room.
Anne Heffron: But these men aren't, weren't there, right? So I don't, maybe part of them, they just didn't, they don't, there's not an, there's not an you have intercourse. That doesn't mean that a ch like they don't go A to B like I. I am pregnant. A woman, maybe their brains don't then go to, she's pregnant, she's gonna deliver a baby. It's more this is something maybe they've done many times maybe that they, maybe it doesn't add up in their brain. Part of them doesn't even believe it. And that woman, you're pregnant and you have that disbelief, right? I can't be pregnant. And then you get sick and then it starts kicking and then your brain gets to process like, wow, I really am pregnant.
Haley Radke: And to be fair, I'm sure there are lots of men in Emil's same situation where he was never told. He was never told.
Anne Heffron: Exactly.
Haley Radke: And so that's a percentage of them. I don't know what, but yeah.
Anne Heffron: And you're never told, or you're told, but you don't believe it, right? There's also are you sure? Because there's so many stories of that, it's just also complicated. So it's, it'd probably be a lot easier just to live in denial.
Haley Radke: It's time to wake up. There's some, there's some of us out here looking and are interesting. Yeah.
Anne Heffron: Part of it is telling them like what's good about it, right?
Like why would they want and that's why it's great he had Emil on the show so that, because his life became exponentially better because Janet contacted him.
Haley Radke: Yeah. Yeah.
Anne Heffron: I love that you're doing this, you're creating a new world,
Haley Radke: A world where fathers have bonus kids as adults.
Anne Heffron: Yeah. Yeah.
Haley Radke: Yeah. Okay. Thanks for speculating with me.
Anne Heffron: Yeah. That was so fun.
Haley Radke: It's it's a good conversation starter and I hope that, If anyone else has ideas and thoughts about where the fathers are, we'd love to hear them. We'd love to hear them.
Anne Heffron: It's like, where's Waldo?
Haley Radke: But where's Waldo? Where are the fathers? Yeah.
Anne Heffron: You're the best. Haley.
Haley Radke: Thanks for chatting with me. Anne, where can we connect with you online and find out about some of the upcoming retreats that you and Pam Cord are doing?
Anne Heffron: Oh, yep. So Pam and I, Pam Cord, and I have our Beyond Adoption You Retreats. We have one this coming weekend, and then one the next in Berkeley, and then we're having one in January.
You could go to Beyond Adoption, you on Facebook, or you could email me at anneheffron@ gmail.com and I'm on Instagram or I meme about adoption at Anne_Heffron. And Haley, your show. I keep telling when adoptees write to me, the first thing I say is, do you listen to Adoptees On? Cause this is the show that changed my life.
So thank you.
Haley Radke: Thanks Anne. I love you, friend.
Oh my gosh, you guys. Anne never fails to make me laugh so hard. I love her perspective on things and her ability to shift things around and look from different angles. Wonderful. Just so fun. So anyway, that's our lighthearted look at where are the dads. And as I said, I'd love to hear from you, where do you think the dads are?
How do we get more fathers involved and how do we show them what they're missing out on in relationship with us? Next. I have a little clip that I asked for from one of the executive producers of this new project that is happening in Canada called Mum's the Word. So let's listen in to that.
(Audio Recording)
Haley Radke: I don't think the girls can express this. They will say, for instance I don't know what I'm gonna do to give up this baby sister. Didn't do anything to me at the beginning, but now, It's growing and it's moving and it's becoming so much part of me. I don't know how I'm gonna part with it, but I just have to, I haven't got a choice.
Hello, my name is Colin Scheyen and I'm a documentary filmmaker based in Toronto, Ontario, Canada. You've just listened to an excerpt from my interactive documentary. Mum's The Word. A lot of Canadians are not aware that during the post-war period, approximately 1945 to 1975, upwards of 350,000 mothers were separated from their children. Many of these separations happened in maternity homes, which were mainly church run organizations where unwed mothers would be hidden away from the world.
Canada now is at a turning point, a place of both reconciliation and a place of infinite questions as we begin to understand how these maternity homes have shaped our country. Over the past two years, we've traveled across Canada and visited many of these maternity homes. More importantly, we've interviewed dozens of mothers and adoptees while have important stories to teach us about the history and legacy of the adoption mandate.
We're hoping that we can have your support. If this is a project that you see as important and valuable, please consider contributing to our current GoFundMe campaign or visiting our Facebook page. Mums the Word, the Movie. You can also find us online at www dot mums the word the film.com.
(End Audio Recording)
Haley Radke: Thank you, Colin.
Good luck with your fundraising for that. I can't wait to see what happens with your project. So exciting. Okay, so this was our season four finale and you're probably wondering, oh darn, how long do we have to wait until the next episode of the show? And don't worry, we have lots to come. So next week we're gonna be back with a healing episode.
I don't wanna leave you hanging for national Adoption Awareness Month. When else do we need the most support from adoptee voices, but getting through November. So don't worry. Every single week we are bringing you a new episode, and I wanna tell you what I'm working on for our next series. It's gonna be a bit of a shorter series.
I know relationships went on for a long time. It's the longest series I've done so far. This one will be shorter, and I'm gonna be talking to several different adoptees about their struggles with addiction. This is such a critical issue for adopted people and we have higher incidents of addiction and mental illness than the general population.
So this is just a really critical area. So even if you don't struggle with addiction, I know you are gonna learn some really important information from these adoptees who are really gonna be pouring out their hearts to you. So I can't wait to share some of their stories with you, so you can look forward to that.
But like I said, we've got some healing episodes coming up and then we'll start in onto that next series, adoptees and Addiction. And I literally could not continue to do the show every single week for you without my supporters. So I wanna thank you so much, all of you who are supporting me monthly.
If you have found adoptees on valuable and would like to support our work here, you can go to adopteeson.com/partner and find more details of the benefits of becoming a monthly partner with me. I would love to have you as a supporter and the very best way you can support the show is simply by sharing an episode with a friend.
Share Janet's story with someone that you know that lives in Canada and might not have heard her. Her incredible story of search and reunion. Maybe you know, another adopted person who could really use some support. Maybe there's a healing episode you can recommend to them. Spreading the word about the show is the best way for us to build the audience and help more adopted people find support in community.
Thank you for allowing me to speak with you every single week. It's such an honor to spend this time with you. Thank you for letting me share these amazing people with you and for honoring their stories. It's a privilege I do not take lightly. So sincerely, thank you for listening and let's talk again next Friday.
