112 [S6] Christine Miskonoondinkwe Smith

Transcript

Full show notes: http://www.adopteeson.com/listen/112

Episode Transcription by Fayelle Ewuakye. Find her on Twitter at @FayelleEwuakye

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(intro music)

You are listening to AdopteesOn, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. This is episode 112, Christine. I’m your host Haley Radke. We are continuing our series on the Canadian Sixties Scoop. And today, I’m honored to introduce you to Christine Miskonoondinkwe Smith. Christine shares her story of being apprehended from her original family, adopted with her sister, and then ultimately going back into care as a young girl. She tells us about how she reconnected with her indigenous heritage, and how some influential role models made all the difference for her. We wrap up with some recommended resources, and as always, links to everything we’ll be talking about today are over on AdopteesOn.com. Let’s listen in.

(upbeat music)

Haley- I’m so pleased to welcome to AdopteesOn, Christine Miskonoondinkwe Smith. Welcome, Christine!

Christine – Hello.

Haley – I’m so excited to chat with you today and I’d love for you to just start out by sharing your story with us please.

Christine – I’m Christine Miskonoondinkwe Smith, I am from Peguis First Nation in Winnipeg, Manitoba. I was adopted out from my family. My biological family, when I was three years old. And adopted into a non-native family in another province, which is Ontario. So I grew up without knowing my community, my language, and my traditions. And ultimately the situation I went into was not healthy. And l ended up in care, ended up back in care at the age of 10, after being with my adoptive parents for 7 years, I think that’s 7 years. So I not only was taken away from my community and my family, I was also a product of the foster care system. That was very difficult. But there were some people in my life who stepped in and kind of helped me out, were role models. And helped me to stay on the right path, I guess you could say.

Haley - Okay, so when you said you were adopted at age three, did your biological family relinquish you, or were you apprehended?

Christine - My sister and I were apprehended together and we were adopted together but we were told that our mom was neglectful and that is why we were taken away from her. And also that she drank and a whole bunch of other negative stuff.

Haley - Right, but the stereotypical things that the government was kind of using as excuses to apprehend, okay. And so you and your sister were adopted together when you were put back into care at age 10. What happened to your sister?

Christine – My sister stayed with the adoptive family I was with, I had been adopted by. So, we went 7 years without contact with each other and then she came back into my life when I was, I think 17. She showed up at my independent living home that the children’s aid had put me into. And we’ve established a relationship since then.

Haley – Wow, okay, there’s a lot of stuff there, my goodness. Can you tell me a little bit more about going into care after you’ve had an adoptive placement, which sounded like it was not a good situation for you. Were you in different foster homes before the independent living home? What did that look like for you, your young adult, teenage years, I should say?

Christine – My first home was actually a home for troubled girls. I was the youngest there. I was only 10 and the kids there were like 14, 15, and 16 years old. I stayed there for a year. And then when I met a worker there at the group home, and they decided they wanted to just take me home with them. That was my first foster home, so I was around 11, I think. And then that wasn’t very good either, ‘cause I was very troubled at that age. I don’t blame them for what happened. But at that age, I thought if anyone, if my parents, if my adoptive parents can’t love me, then why should I let anyone else love me? So I started running away and they called the police of course, and then I’d be sent back to live with them. And all that began when I was 11. But it stopped when I was 13, when I went to my third foster home. Because the third foster home I went to, they actually showed me that they gave a damn. Pardon my language.

Haley – Mmhmm.

Christine – But they said to me, one day I got really really angry. And I was gonna take off on them. And they stood at the front of their porch and they said, if you step off this sidewalk, and leave, then you’re not gonna come back here. And for some reason that clicked in my brain that yeah, they wanted me there. I suffered a lot of mental health issues, a lot of trauma from what I went through. And they also went through trying to deal with that with me. I’d developed anorexia, and I harmed myself by cutting and by taking pills when I, if I wanted to numb myself. But that, like I didn’t, the anorexia was a good part of my teen years. And so was the harming myself. The pill taking didn’t start til I was 17 and my adoptive father showed up back in my life. I thought that by him showing up back in my life, I could prove to him that he could love me. So I basically, I guess I thought I could give him a second chance. That, if he could come back into my life, and love me, I would be okay. But instead it caused more trauma. And I did end up having to cut him out of my life entirely. Which is something I, I wouldn’t say I regret. But I learned a lesson from that, and the lesson I learned from that was that there are people in your life who are gonna be toxic. There are gonna be people in your life who are positive and you have to learn to discern between the two of them and stick with the people who are positive. Learn from the people who are positive that you treat yourself the way, you treat others the way you treat yourself. I don’t know if that makes sense, I don’t know if I—

Haley – No, it totally makes sense. And you, I think on your Facebook page, just a little bit ago I was looking back and it said something like that. Like you really wanna keep positive people around you and I understand that. When we’re healing from a lot of different traumatic things, just as adopted people, you don’t wanna keep bringing trauma into your life. Christine, can we go back, something that you said was that there was people in your life that were those positive influences. And so you were, they were kind of stepping back in and helping you in some fashion. Can you talk a little bit about that and also, I don’t know if this is connected or not, so you were transracially adopted. And you were taken to Ontario, you were born in Manitoba. How about connecting back with your heritage and your culture?

Christine – Being transracially adopted was actually a very difficult thing because I experienced a lot of hostility, a lot of discrimination. John Jorns speaks about that in his thesis about how he felt, how you can feel excluded from just little things. And knowing that I was different, I knew right from the start of course, that I was different, because I was brown skinned and they weren’t. I got back into my culture, or connected back with my culture I should say, when I moved to Toronto after living in Windsor for 20 years, for my 20 years or whatever. I think it was whatever, I can’t even, sorry.

Haley – That’s okay, so what decade of your life were you in when you were reconnecting with your culture?

Christine – I was in my mid, I would say I was in my mid 20s to my 30s.

Haley – Okay.

Christine – I’m still reconnecting now and I’m in my mid 40s now.

Haley – Can you give an example of some of those little things? I mean probably now we might call microaggressions, things that made you feel other or less than from your adoptive family. Or just growing up transracially, taken out of your community.

Christine – I always knew that I was different because I remember as far back as grade three, sitting in class, and a kid saying, I don’t like you because you’re brown. And we lived in affluent suburb where I was adopted into. And I was always the last one picked for groups, teams, everything. My adoptive parents made it known that they didn’t want me, they wanted my sister. They always told me that oh if you make it to the age of 25, you’re gonna be either in jail, or dead. So it was the typical stereotypes that they fell back on.

Haley – Was your sister younger?

Christine – Uh no, my sister’s actually 10 months older than me.

Haley – Okay. Did it make a difference for you to have her with you? It sounds like they were kind of pushing you against each other in some way, but I don’t know.

Christine – Uh yeah, they were striving to put us against each other a lot, when we were together. And she could do no wrong, so anything that was done, it was blamed on me. My sister’s side of the story is different, she thinks that she basically tried to save me from what happened. But in essence, I’ve told her no, because it was me that ended up taking a different path and getting away from our adoptive parents. Even though they instigated it by, I mean, putting me back into care.

Haley – Yeah, I’ve heard of rehoming before and I’ve heard of adoptive parents saying like, yeah we just can’t do it. But I haven’t heard of that where there’s two siblings and one is, one they’re like no, we can’t. Yeah, that’s really shocking. Okay, so Christine, I’m curious about that time in your mid 20s to 30s, what does reconnecting look like for you? Did you have, like what kind of friend group did you have? Did you have to actively seek out other indigenous people? Or what did that look like? Where were you living and kind of walk us through that if you would.

Christine – I basically had to actively seek out other people, other indigenous people. It helped at the time that I had a worker who was introducing me to the various things in the community, in the indigenous community. And I ended up volunteering at the Native Canadian Centre.

Haley – You ended up volunteering at the Native Canadian Centre? What is that?

Christine – It’s a Friendship Centre in Toronto. I was brought there by a worker who thought it would be good for me to be involved in something, ‘cause I was suffering from depression and extreme anxiety. I started the process of working there. Not working there, but volunteering there, I mean. And I met various people and through my volunteer work, I was able to take part in watching events take place, like different workshops, ceremonies, and stuff like that. And it made me want to go further so I basically signed up to go back to school. I had always wanted to have a post secondary education so I did that. And I got accepted into the Academic Bridging Program at the University of Toronto. And I did a year of studies there, got accepted into studies part time. And from there, I started taking Aboriginal Studies. Because I wanted to understand the history of my people better. And I wanted to know why there were so many stereotypes around us as a people. And that was when I met a professor in my first year of studies, Dr. Cynthia Wesley-Esquimaux, who told me right from the start, don’t be afraid. And speak up. And she was a mentor for me for, she’s still a mentor for me, but it was very enlightening for me to have a professor show interest in me and show, tell me that I could be a lot more than I had been told.

Haley – In your studies or at the Native Canadian Centre, did you meet any other people that had a similar story to you that were apprehended or adopted or in foster care?

Christine – I didn’t really know too many people that, like I had heard about residential schools, that kind of thing, but I didn’t really meet a lot of people in regards to that and the Sixties Scoop until I was, I found out about the national child welfare group in Ottawa. And I went to their very first gathering. I traveled to Ottawa and I stayed in Ottawa and I stayed for the, what they did, and they talked about trauma, they talked about how we weren’t alone.

Haley – So was this a gathering of people from the Sixties Scoop?

Christine – Yes.

Haley – Okay.

Christine – I missed the next gathering but I’ve been to the last two. And the most inspiring thing that they have given me is a sense of family again. Because I have friends now who know what I’ve been through, who understand what I’ve been through, and they, they’re very supportive. Even if it is, even if we only meet them once a year. They’re so very supportive online and you know.

Haley – Oh yeah, I get it, I totally get it. There’s nothing like being with other adoptees in person and then also for an adoptee who’s had a similar experience to you. So that’s amazing that you’re able to gather and do that and it sounds like there is some training and things that happen, teaching about trauma, and that’s excellent. I’ll have to put a link to that in the show notes so people can find out more information. What are some of the best ways that you have found to not look back at things positively? Like I know there’s a lot of really challenging, difficult things that happen to you. But how have you been able to become more of a positive person and you know, you say you choose to surround yourself with positive people. Do you wanna talk a little bit about that? Like how did you decide, I have to move forward?

Christine – There was a time, probably when I was in my, when I was from 17 to early 20s, I was in a just very negative spot. And I was, I know for a fact that I was very draining to be around because I was so down on myself and so, like oh who cares kind of thing. Again it was role models that stepped in and helped me. There were people as I was growing up, teachers, or like in my studies, professors, or the people in Ottawa who helped me to see that if I wanted to change, I could. And I chose to break the cycle of what had happened in my family by going back to school, getting my undergraduate degree, and then going and getting my master’s degree. And deciding that the friends that I made along the way were people that I wanted in my life because they continuously supported me, encouraged me, and if I got down, they’d say, no think about this in another way. Instead of thinking about it in a way that would get me more upset.

Haley – Mmhmm.

Christine – So I kept in touch with a couple people from when I was younger. And they're even surprised. Well, I wouldn’t say surprised, but maybe wow, you’ve come a long way. And I don’t like to, I guess say toot my own horn, but I have come a long way. And I do thank the people that have helped me to see that I am a lot more than what my adoptive parents let me believe, and what society has led me to believe.

Haley – Mmhmm.

Christine – The government played a huge role in trying to decimate our people. And even though that makes me angry, I try to rise above it and I try to, right when I started free dancing with my writing, I only wanted to focus on the positive, because that’s all we heard in the news was, the stereotypical news about First Nations people. I wanted to focus on the positives so I would do stories on people who were successful. People who were making steps for themselves or looking out for other people in our community.

Haley – What would you tell us about the impact the Sixties Scoop has had on your community? And what, just a really, simple, easy question. And then what hasn’t changed, or what has changed? Even now? I interviewed Dr. Raven Sinclair as well and she was telling me about the very, very percentages of kids in care are still indigenous. Can you speak to that a little bit?

Christine – There is a very high overrepresentation of indigenous kids in care. I happen to one of the fortunate ones to come out of it. But in recent news, there was a little baby in Winnipeg who died while in care and that shouldn’t have happened. Injustice of that and the injustice towards Tina Fontaine, and how she was ignored is really infuriating. And I believe that the government even though they say they want reconciliation and they want to work with us, I don’t think they're ready. Or if they are ready, they're being very slow about it. And they're not changing their stance towards how they see us. They see us as wards of the state which is not what we are. We’re independent First Nations and we should be treated as such. And the overrepresentation of children in care is just an extension, I believe, of continuing not only residential schools, era, but the Sixties Scoop era. Communities have been majorly affected. I know for a fact that when I went back to my own community, I didn’t feel like I was a part of my community because I have, I’ve never been on reserve. So I even remember my own uncle laughing, even though I know he was doing it in jest, I remember saying, having misconceptions about my reserve and I would ask questions and they’d be like, well no, that’s not true, this is what happens. And it’s just, it fractures communities. And the government, even though they're trying to invest so many dollars into child welfare, they need to take action and they need to not pay lip service anymore. Because lip service doesn’t get you anywhere. It just says, oh yeah, we’ll do something, but it doesn’t do anything. And it doesn’t take back what Sixties Scoops kids have lost or what residential school era people have lost. I lost having a connection with my family even though I’ve found some of them on Facebook. I had 13 years with my biological mother before she passed in 2017. And a lot of people say, oh you’re lucky that you had that 13 years. But I wish I had had more. I can say that. I wish I had been able to have grown up with her and I wish that I was able to speak my language with her. And to grow up knowing the different things that she did. But I’m now hearing that secondhand Because her voice is gone.

Haley – I’m sorry. I’m sorry for your loss, that’s heartbreaking. So, you reconnected with her, and you know, knowing now what you know about the Sixties Scoop, and how social workers were really given a mandate to apprehend indigenous kids, sort of, it was almost no matter what. There was likely not a reason for you to be apprehended. Is that right?

Christine – I mean yeah. There was no reason for us to be apprehended. Sure, my mom led a tough life. From what I understand, from what she told me, and from what I’ve learned through my own understanding of the history and everything. The highest apprehension rates were in Manitoba. And in the prairies as far as I understand. Because I done a lot of research on that area. I’m writing a memoir about my, snapshots of my life, of being in care in the Sixties Scoop. And I think the child welfare workers worked as, worked in cahoots with the govt basically. And the high apprehension rates are still something that needs to be addressed, like why are they still taking indigenous children away, especially in an era that they’re saying is truth and reconciliation?

Haley – Yeah. Well and, this is the piece I don’t understand, why there’s such a disconnect. Why, you know, broad sweeping strokes the government is, doesn’t like obviously, the parenting style in general, of indigenous families. And yet, so much of the trauma, you know, we talk about trauma being passed down generationally, you were mentioning too, residential schools. And it’s like you don’t even get a chance, it’s just, I say it again, it’s so heartbreaking to me to hear these stories about the brokenness. And what I love about your story Christine is, is all the ways that you have tried to reconnect and relearn about your culture and also be a positive force for your own life, but also in your community. And helping other people move forward as well. And the thing is, like if we don’t look back on this time, like we’re still repeating the same mistakes. I think it’s kind of sick actually, that a lot of Canadians don’t understand about the Sixties Scoop. We hear about residential schools, but honestly, I don’t think we get it. So I’m thankful for your wisdom on this and sharing what you’ve learned about and you write about. And yeah, I appreciate that. Do you have anything else that you wanna tell us about that or, you know, you’re not just talking to Canadians, you’re also talking to Americans and other adopted people around the world. What are some lessons we can learn here? And especially for adopted people, like, what can we be doing to change what’s happening right now? ‘Cause we don’t want there to be future adoptees with trauma. How do we move forward and how do we change things?

Christine – I think that we have to basically band together, be accepting of each other, and not engage in any lateral violence towards each other. We’ve all been through various amounts of trauma in one way or another. And we can't let that destroy us, we have to band together and let each other know that we support each other. And it’s important if you know your truths, to stick to your truths. And to also, if you know your story, and you wanna share your story, it’s important that we share our story so that this doesn’t happen to younger generations. My favorite quote from Thomas King of all people, is the truth about stories is that’s all we are. And I believe that full heartedly, wholeheartedly. We are all stories in action and we have to, we just gotta try to stay positive I guess. I don’t know if I’m making any sense

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Haley – Yeah, no you are, you are! I think, do you see this too? I see a lot of wasted energy on telling each other that, or fighting with each other, I think that’s what you mean by the lateral violence, right? There’s so much wasted energy there, or like swapping trauma comparisons. And it’s like, this is not moving us forward in any fashion. Yes, yes, I agree, that’s good. Okay, is there anything else that you want to share about your story or comment on before we do recommended resources?

Christine – I forgot to mention about the role models in my life. I don’t know if I touched on that or not. But I think it’s important for people to be role models to each other. And to understand that if we can, we can be role models to each other, then we’re breaking the cycle of what’s happened to us in the past. And I've always wanted to become more than what my adoptive parents said that I was gonna be or not be, I mean. And one of my mottos is obstacles can be overcome. And that’s what I’ve done. I’ve overcome my obstacles, I’m still working on some obstacles. But amplifying the indigenous voice is also something that’s very important to me too.

Haley – Absolutely. That’s so necessary ‘cause we’re definitely not caring enough about it, I agree. Thank you for sharing your story with us, and I want to go ahead and do recommended resources. And I want to recommend a book. A listener actually sent me a link to this and so I ordered it. It’s called, Two Worlds: Lost Children of the Indian Adoption Projects. And it’s an anthology. And actually most of the stories and poems and things are from U.S. adoptees. But there is a whole section at the back that’s called First Nations Canada. And again it’s little vignettes, parts of people’s stories, there’s some poetry in here. And I haven’t finished reading all of it, but, I think just like you said, we all have a story and if you are in a place where you can share your story, I think that is where change comes from. And so I love for reading other adoptees’ stories, and it’s so inspiring. And this particular edition I have is the second edition. And it has a few changes that are noted. But in the afterword, I found it was really, really powerful. They're talking about how, the Sixties Scoop in Canada, but also what’s happened in the U.S. in the same time frame is a genocide. And it’s such a strong word and yet what else do you call it? So I really, I recommend that book, and I recommend that in general, we need to be looking more into the Sixties Scoop and understanding it so we can’t make these same mistakes again. Because it’s, I know I said this already, but it’s just shocking to me that so many Canadians don’t even understand that this is what’s happened and it’s continuing to happen in my opinion to this day. Okay. Christine, what did you wanna recommend today?

Christine – I’ve got like, quite a bit of information that I can fall back on and one of the most important books I’ve, I think, is called Stolen From Our Embrace: The Abduction of First Nations Children and The Restoration of Aboriginal Communities. It’s written by Suzanne Fornier and Ernie Crey. That book has been my mainstay for when I was doing my studies. And it made me understand my people’s history, the Sixties Scoop stuff and all that other. It challenges readers to rethink the illusion painted by the Canadian government about how effective child welfare policies are. Another book I would mention is, Raised Somewhere Else by Colleen Hele-Cardinal. That just was, that was just recently published. It’s her experience, Colleen’s experience I mean, growing up as a Sixties Scoop.

Haley – Was she was an adoptee?

Christine – She was an adoptee.

Haley – So it’s her memoir?

Christine- It’s her memoir, yes. And then the person that I, there’s like several people that I know that are really good, that are really invested in the topic of child welfare and I mean First Nation’s child welfare. And one of them is Cindy Blackstock. And she’s in charge of First Nations Caring Society in Ottawa. And she’s also a professor of social work. And she’s somebody that I, like if you can read any of her work or follow her on Twitter, I would highly recommend that, ‘cause she’s always got tidbits that are very thought provoking and interesting to read.

Haley – I was looking her up before we talked because you sent me her name. And I’m looking at her profile on McGill’s website and she has got a lot of honorary doctorates from all over. Oh that’s so cool, thank you, I love that. Alright, wonderful. Was there anything else? You mentioned this in our interview, but did you want to tell us about John Martin Doran’s thesis?

Christine- I think that’s an important thesis also because it talks about the way he was adopted into, I believe it was a Mennonite family.

Haley – So his thesis is called A Long Way Home: First Nations Adoptions and Reparations and it’s by John Martin Doran. So you were saying he was adopted likely into a Mennonite family?

Christine – And he talks in his thesis about various factors of what happened to him and what’s happened to other adoptees who have been adopted into, transracially adopted. And he, it’s just very enlightening I think. Like it’s just, I can’t explain it all because it’s very detailed.

Haley – Sure, and you know it goes back to that same thing, right? There’s so much power in our stories. And I think just learning about each other’s experiences and especially when we find those common connections, like oh my goodness, me too. It’s so powerful and so healing to know that we’re not the only ones. Thank you, thank you so much Christine. Where we connect with you online?

Christine – You can reach me on Facebook at Miskonoodinkwe Smith. On Twitter @Miskonoodinkwe.

Haley – Well I’ll put links to your social media, and your email in the show notes if that’s okay.

Christine – Yeah.

Haley – And people can connect with you those ways.

Christine- Okay.

Haley – Wonderful, thanks so much for your time, and I really appreciated your insights into your own experiences and also insights into the Sixties Scoop.

(upbeat music)

If you have an idea for a great guest for our Canadian Sixties Scoop series, connect me on social media, let me know who you think I should be interviewing. We are on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook @AdopteesOn and you can find links to all social media as well on AdopteesOn.com. I’d love to connect with you there. And a huge thank you as always to my monthly supporters. You guys are making this show possible so thank you so much for your ongoing generosity. And I just want to invite you if you’re finding AdopteesOn helpful and valuable and want it to continue, come and partner with us, AdopteesOn.com/partner, helps to keep the show going. I’m so honored that you took time to listen today. Next week we will be back with Boundaries, Part 2 with Lesli Johnson and then we’ll be continuing on in the Sixties Scoop series. Thanks so much for listening, let’s talk again next Friday.

111 [Healing Series] Boundaries Part One with Lesli A. Johnson, MFT

Transcript

Full Show Notes: http://www.adopteeson.com/listen/111

Episode Transcription by Fayelle Ewuakye. Find her on Twitter at @FayelleEwuakye.

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Haley - This show is listener supported. You can join us and help our show grow to support more adoptees, by going to AdopteesOn.com/partner.

(intro music)

Haley - You’re listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. I’m your host, Haley Radke, and this is a special episode in our Healing series where I interview therapists who are also adoptees themselves. So they know from personal experience, what it feels like to be an adoptee. Today we are taking your questions, about boundaries. Let’s listen in.

(upbeat music)

Haley - I’m so pleased to welcome back to Adoptees On, Lesli Johnson! Welcome Lesli!

Lesli - Thank you so much, thanks. I’m so glad to be back. I’ll apologize in advance for my voice, I’m getting over a little allergy thing and I know you’re not feeling at the top of your game either, so, we’ll do our best.

Haley - We’re both sick, it’s no problem, listen, we’re just a little bit lower than normal, and people are gonna love it. Okay I asked on social media, because I knew I was talking to you, and we were gonna talk about boundaries. And I asked people to send us their questions. because they really need help navigating this area. And one of-

Lesli - Perfect.

Haley - My funny followers said, what are boundaries? ‘Cause we struggle with boundaries.

Lesli - That’s a good question.

Haley - We struggle with boundaries!

Lesli - Me too!

Haley - So why don't you answer the basic, what are boundaries?

Lesli - I get that question a lot too, and I know a lot of my clients also say that they struggle setting boundaries and keeping boundaries. And I guess this is probably not the dictionary definition, but I think it’s a way of establishing guidelines for relationships, finding what feels right in ways that we can sort of know where our edges are. We wanna let in, and how we want those relationships to work. And then being able to actually verbalize that, and let the other people in our lives, whether it’s you know, our adoptive parents, our birth parents, our partners, our friends, the people that we work with, just letting them know what our boundaries are.

Haley - Now it sounded like, a lot of adopted people, struggle with this, letting people know where the edges are. Why would you say that could be?

Lesli - I think in terms of like what we’ve talked about before, you and I, and like I said with many of my clients. So for an adopted person, if that person was separated from their biology early in life, if they had multiple placements before coming to their adoptive families, there were so many things that happened that were not, events that happened that were not events in their control. And I think boundaries are a way of exerting, although that sounds really like a strong word, but I think boundaries are way of having some control. Having some control over who and what we let into our lives.

Haley - I like that idea about having some control back. And you mentioned that we may need to verbalize our boundaries, that sounds a little bit scary.

Lesli - Right, it does.

Haley - But how else are people supposed to know? Talk a little bit about that.

Lesli - I mean I guess we can verbalize our boundaries and have it be a conversation. It doesn't have to be, I mean I think sometimes the word boundary, it sounds so strong and direct and rigid. And I guess I don't really see it that way, it’s about talking about what works for us and what doesn’t work for us. And we can of course act out our boundaries. But I think if we’re working towards health and well being, that being able to have those conversations with people that are in our lives is a much easier, well I shouldn't say easier, it's a much more lasting way to, to work with boundaries. And I think it’s also important to remind ourselves that boundaries don't have to be rigid. They can be more fluid, so we might start out in a relationship with someone and have certain boundaries and they change over time, whether they become more relaxed or they become more firmed up.

Haley - I think you're about to give us some in real life examples of what these conversations could look like.

Lesli - okay.

Haley - Alright, so here’s our first question. “I think it’s super important to talk about setting boundaries of reunion. Not doing that, I think I really messed up my reunion with my grandmother. So, advice on how bring that up without people feeling hurt.”

Lesli - I think that it is very important in the initial stages of reunion, to have guidelines for what each person wants the relationship to look like in the initial phases. I think all too often people are either really timid and afraid, and so they are so vigilant over each contact or each phone call. Is this person gonna call back, are they gonna return my email. I think if we can talk about that in the initial, the initial part of the reunion, this is really scary for me. And I'm a person that gets triggered when I don’t have my voicemails returned, or my emails returned. So setting a boundary can also be asking for what you need. I'm just gonna ask that you, you be mindful of that and know that that is worrisome for me when I don't hear back. I mean that’s a way of, I think, I don't know if you agree, but setting expectations is also a way of having a boundary.

Haley - So that's something we can do at the start if we’re noticing our emails not getting returned in a timely fashion in our opinion.

Lesli - right.

Haley - But what if you let things kinda go, and then you wanna come back and say, okay, I’ve really not expressed my desires or needs before, how do you start that conversation?

Lesli - so when you say let things, go, tell me what you mean, like maybe--

Haley - Well this person’s question, was saying that she really hoped that she, or she should have set boundaries at the beginning of reunion, and she didn’t do that. So now how does she bring it up, and talk about, likely what she is hoping for, for herself and prob for her grandmother?

Lesli - I think just having that conversation and again I’m may be oversimplifying it, because that’s not going to be an easy one to have. Especially, and I’m not sure about this person if they’re, I wish I had a tiny bit more information because I’m wondering if they, there was too much contact at first and now she wants to kind of pull back, or if there was lapses and now she wants to become, get closer. But I think being able to say, you know, even just what she said in that note to you, or that email to you, I think I wish I would have set more clear expectations at the onset. And now I'm regretting that and I think I’ve ruined the reunion with my grandmother. If she were able to say that to her grandmother, I wonder how her grandmother would react? I feel like I messed up because we didn't talk about our expectations of each other when we first met. Is there room for us to start again? You know, being honest and open and transparent. And of course people are gonna get hurt, especially in reunion, they’re gonna get hurt. And their feelings are gonna get hurt. And who they thought the other person is, isn’t gonna meet who the person actually is. Or maybe it is, but not maybe not initially. And so again, just being able to take care of oneself and convey again those expectations with the other.

Haley - I think this question really goes along with what you’re saying. “My first mother wants me to let her know how often I’ll be in touch. She believes it will assuage her anxieties about losing me again. I want to make her feel better but truthfully, I don't know what the answer is. And I'm scared to overpromise and under deliver. What do I tell her?”

Lesli - That’s a beautiful question and I hear that so, I have so many clients right now and oddly, are just at one time, right now that are in reunion that are in the initial stages. And really trying to navigate the complexities and one theme I’m very very aware of, is that the anxiety that, that first parents have, first mothers have, is very very similar to the anxiety that the adoptee has is that “I'm gonna be left again. I’m gonna, if I don't say it right, if I don't type it right, if I don’t make sure every single bit of my communication is understood in the way that I'm trying to convey, I'm out of here.” So I think that mother’s wish and desire is a good one. It’s fine for her to ask for that and the adoptee may have to say, I understand what you’re asking. I'm not going anywhere. But I also can't, I'm not able to say exactly when I'm gonna reach out to you. But if they are used to talking every week, and one week lapses, that they're gonna reconnect. Or if they plan to talk every other day, and a few days go by, that they're gonna reconnect. And maybe that can be enough. because I don't think the onus should be put on either person to try to take care of the other. I mean, that’s what we do in relationship, but I think it’s too much to ask one person to assure the other when they’re both having similar anxieties, does that make sense?

Haley - Yeah, definitely. But I like that, you can say, I can't exactly give you, like the times in my day where Ii can reply. You know, like especially if it’s like, in the honeymoon period, because it can be so fast and furious and you literally can’t keep up.

Lesli - Right.

Haley - But I like that, if we don't hear from each other in a few days, let’s give each other permission to reach out again.

Lesli - Of course I think it also speaks to the hope that in these relationships, that everyone’s doing their own work. So that the onus to assure and reassure the other isn’t misplaced.

Haley - Okay. Next question. “I have a paternal sister who is kind and nice, but wants more from me than I can emotionally give at this time. My sister has sort of a angel or hero complex for me, and she thinks me being adopted out was a lucky thing, because her life with our father was horrific. She’s almost jealous, it’s a lot. I wanna have a relationship with her, but I can’t be smothered.” Thoughts on that Lesli.

Lesli - Again I feel like it’s a fair, it’s a fair conversation. These questions are so well articulated, it’s almost like they could just say exactly that to the other person. And maybe they are gonna be met with openness and maybe they’re not. But I think it’s fair to be able to say, “I'm so happy to be in contact with you, I'm enjoying getting to know you, I'm enjoying this relationship, it seems like we have differing, a few different feelings about our father. I'm hoping that you’ll let me kinda go at this relationship at my own pace.” So again I guess there is a little, I keep saying that the onus shouldn’t be put on the adopted person, but I guess there is a little bit of onus to explain and assure this person that you wanna be in relationship with them but that it just needs to go a little slower right now. She could say, “I really wanna be able to take this all in, and process it just at a little bit of a slower pace.”

Haley - And I’m thinking of being on the receiving end of a statement like that. And for me that feels like, okay, it’s a little bit much for you, like that doesn’t hurt my feelings to hear that and be like, okay maybe we’re in touch maybe once a month, instead of, I’m texting you every day.

Lesli - Right.

Haley - I think, I love how you phrased it and I think there’s a real, I think there’s a real problem in boundary conversations that I have seen and personally been a part of, where we let things build up over time, over time, over time, to we’re like, oh my gosh we’ve had it! And we have this big kind of blow up. But if you have taken the time to think about it ahead of time and say, okay, this is really not working and you can phrase it in this really gentle, compassionate matter, outcome’s probably better than, if you have a big fight about it.

Lesli - Right. And I agree with you, that when we let things build up over time that, that what comes out is gonna be an exaggerated reaction rather than a thought out response.

Haley - Okay. Next. “In reunion with birth families, how can we know if we are being too much?” In quotation marks. “How often should an adoptee contact a new family member in order to stay connected without appearing clingy?” Oooh, there’s probably not a right answer for this one. But what are your general thoughts on this?

Lesli - Well that’s interesting, there’s not a right answer, but just even that this person is describing themselves or thinking of themselves as too much or clingy in their desire to be connected with their birth family is kinda of revealing. And I would wanna rephrase that or reframe it. And again, how can this person, he or she ask and convey like, “I really am excited about this relationship and I just, I wanna, I want to be able to reach out and I know there’s probably, you have probably some feelings too and what feels good for you? What feels good for me and how can we meet in the middle somewhere?”

Haley - Okay, this one is, this one is a little different, in it’s not the time or contact necessarily. “Finding the boundary between birth mom and adoptee, between being honest with your feelings and not pushing them away. So I wanna let her know how I'm feeling, but then I don't wanna be brutally honest in fear that i’ll push her away. And she may think this is too much for her or doesn’t need this added stress right now.” So I think that question really is, are we oversharing, what’s too much information, I think this happened to me personally in reunion as well.

Lesli - Okay.

Haley - In feeling like when I was expressing things, I was being a little maybe too brutally honest about things that were challenging. So yeah, what are your thoughts on this one?

Lesli - Well I think again, this idea that in a perfect world, everyone in the adoption equation is doing their own work and I know that’s not actually happening.

Haley - What?

Lesli - I know, so I think it’s important to remember too, how would, how, when we get in reunion or when we are in reunion, especially in the initial stages, even though we have built this up, and it’s a very big deal, it’s still a new relationship. So how would we talk with another new person that we met? Maybe it’s a friend or coworker. Would we initially start sharing our deepest feelings? We probably wouldn’t. I mean, this isn't an exact comparison, but I think it is important to be aware and be mindful that this is a new relationship, and so we do wanna kind of meter what we share initially. As we build trust, and we get to know each other, we can start to talk about those more intimate details and see where that goes. And also if we allow for a little time for the relationship to develop, we can also see what the other person, how much they can sort of handle or take,That doesn’t mean we still can't share this information we wanna share, but we’ll have a better idea rather than just dive right in. I just think so often we’ve built, and I say we, meaning myself as well, we’ve built up the reunion and we’ve been thinking about this person primarily, birth mother, biological family as well, for so long. And we’ve imagined who they are or what they look like and what they’re doing. And so when we finally have the opportunity to meet them, we do wanna share everything so quickly. But I do think it’s important to establish the relationship a bit first.

Haley - And I think this is a good time for a pitch for therapy, or, a trusted adoptee friend, right? Because there are things we have to talk about, about reunion and often it’s the other person in reunion that’s getting all the bulk of our feelings and things, right?

Lesli - right.

Haley - So maybe there's another outlet we can use to channel some of that.

Lesli - Find an adoption informed therapist, a support group, a friend who was adopted, someone who really gets it. And they don't necessarily have to be in reunion, but they’ll still get it. And yeah, talk with them as you’re building the relationship.

Haley - Here’s our last question for today. “So my reunion with my bio mother failed after eight months. We had little boundaries with each other and she ultimately rejected me for a second time.” Just an aside, I am so sorry, secondary rejection is so painful, so I’m sorry you went through that. Back to the question. “I have recently come into contact with my half sister on my paternal side and I don’t wanna make the same mistakes. I want this relationship to have the necessary boundaries but honestly I don't know what that looks like.” So going back to what you were talking about at the very start of the show today and what boundaries are, and there are edges, and you know, these guides for us and for the other person, what can we do, going into another reunion like that, ahead of time, to kind of decide what is this gonna look like? Is there a plan we can make? What's your advice for this person?

Lesli - Yeah, I pause because it sounds like she, in some ways, he or she is blaming themselves for the failed reunion. And you know, it takes two people in the relationship, so I wanna remind people of that. So I think moving forward in his or her relationship with the half sister, is just maybe having that, having again, having a conversation. “Listen, this happened in my reunion with my birth mother, and it was heartbreaking.” And secondary rejection is heartbreaking. I have seen it all too often with my clients. And explain to his or her half sister, “I don't want that to happen here. So this is kind of what my expectations are.” If the person doesn’t feel like their good at setting or managing expectations or boundaries, say that. “How can we come up with a plan together that works for both of us as we start to get to know each other. And can we be honest if something’s not working, because I don't think that happened in my reunion, in the initial parts of the reunion with my birth mother, so I just don't want that to repeat itself again.” And I'm oversimplifying, I know people are probably thinking “oh, she’s making it sound so easy,” and it isn’t easy because these are conversations, and we’re talking primarily about reunion and I know possibly in the next episode we’ll talk about setting boundaries in other relationships. But I think that the reunion, the relationships often feel so tenuous. And again I’m thinking about clients who have just talked about it. And my own experience in reunion too, were just again, every time you talk or you email, you just agonize over the words. “Is this, am I gonna offend, am I going to scare her off, am I going to say something wrong.” And so I think that it makes sense that there's such a vigilance around, especially if this person had the initial failed relationship, that it makes sense that he or she would be so vigilant around this next connection. But just to be able to even say that to the person.

Haley - I don’t think it’s, like, simplified advice that you’re giving either, Lesli. Like I think it’s so helpful just to know that you can literally have, I mean it could be like a five minute conversation saying this.

Lesli - Right!

Haley - Like, “I’m afraid of the reunion, my last reunion broke down, I’m kind of afraid, can we just kind of talk about what our expectations are.” Like it can be a really simple conversation.

Lesli - Right.

Haley - Even if it feels really scary. If you’re thinking about, if you’re on the receiving end of this conversation, like as most reasonable people would be like, “oh great, I never thought of that, let’s talk about it.” It doesn’t have to be this huge, huge major thing.

Lesli - Right, right.

Haley - But yet it can make such a huge impact.

Lesli - Right. And we’re talking about relationships, and I think, as other episodes have talked about relationships, adoptees in relationships is sometimes tricky.

Haley - Just sometimes.

Lesli - It’s a generalization, if I’ve ever heard one. But there are challenges and it’s, again, I think it stems from that primary relationship being severed so early.

Haley - And you know honestly, I think listening to an episode like this, just thinking about what do you want your boundaries to look like, what do you want your contact to look like, I think those are all really gonna set people up for success in these relationships.

Lesli - I hope so, and I think so.

Haley - Yeah. Any last thoughts on this topic before we wrap up?

Lesli - No, I think we covered a lot and I hope people get some useful information from it.

Haley - I think they will. Okay, Lesli, where can we connect with you online?

Lesli - You can connect with me at my website, www.yourmindfulbrain.com, Instagram @yourmindfulbrain and Twitter @LesliAJohnson.

Haley - Wonderful, thank you so much for your wisdom.

Haley - Today’s questions were from listeners who follow us on social media. You can find links to all the places we are on the website, AdopteesOn.com. We are on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook. And you heard a lot of questions from our secret Facebook group that is for Patreon supporters. And if you want to support the show, you can also find out about our Adoptees Off Script podcast which again is also just for supporters. Go to AdopteesOn.com/partner for details.

Next week we are back to our Sixties Scoop series, thanks so much for listening, let’s talk again next Friday.

110 [S6] Dr. Raven Sinclair

Transcript

Full show notes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/110

Episode Transcription by Fayelle Ewuakye. Find her on Twitter at @FayelleEwuakye

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This show is listener supported. You can join us and help our show grow to support more adoptees, by going to AdopteesOn.com/partner.

(intro music)

Haley - You’re listening to Adoptees On. The podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. This is episode 110, Dr. Raven Sinclair. I’m your host Haley Radke. Today we are starting a new series on the Canadian Sixties Scoop. And if you’re not familiar yet with that terminology, my guest today, Dr. Raven Sinclair, is gonna teach us all about what that means. Dr. Sinclair shares some of her personal story with us, how she rediscovered her indigenous culture and we also talk about how to connect with other Sixties Scoop survivors, and access information about the Sixties Scoop settlement. We wrap up with some recommended resources and as always, links to all of the things we’ll be talking about today are on the website AdopteesOn.com. let’s listen in.

(upbeat music)

Haley -I’m so pleased to welcome to Adoptees On, Dr. Raven Sinclair. Welcome!

Thank you! Pleasure to be here!

Haley -I’d love for you to start out, the way we always do, would you share some of your story with us?

Sure. I was born in 1961. And that’s sort of an interesting time in Canadian history, you know lots of things were happening then. And it’s, you know, when I look back it’s, I see the dusty prairie, and I see you know, the bill of rights coming out and I see the social and sexual revolution starting. It was a great time to be born really. But I was, I was born in a little small town in Alberta. My dad was a farm laborer. And I was the 8th or 9th of eventually 11 children. And my father passed away when I was just about 6 weeks old. And so my mother was left a single mom at 28 with 8 children. And she managed to survive in this small town for a period of time, but then she moved back to Saskatoon so that she could be, you know have the support of her sister. So we moved into the west side of Saskatoon. And you know at that time, urbanization among indigenous people was still, was just beginning. And so we moved into, of course, a neighborhood that was primarily non indigenous people. And so we would, you know, people were a little bit suspicious, a little bit curious about us as well. ‘Cause you know, two women in a small house with about 14 or 15 kids. And we were under a fair bit of scrutiny, at least that’s what my oldest brother tells me. And so they would call the police or the authorities sort of at any drop of the hat. And one day when my mother and her sister had gone out, they called Social Services. So at that time, I was about 3, and I remember the day. I remember holding my oldest sister’s hand. And the police car was there and the social workers were there. And then I don’t have sort of a lot of memory, I know that we went to, we were taken to Kilburn hall. Which right now, it’s a juvenile detention center, but at that time it was an emergency shelter or a receiving home for kids who were being taken into care. And we spent a little bit of time there and then we were put in foster care, sort of all over the city. Now, I was placed in a foster home with one of my sisters. And then we had two siblings who were placed next door. And when the foster parents got along, then we were allowed to play together and do things together but when they, at some point they started fighting and so we were not even allowed to go and see our siblings. And you know, but for me the insulating factor was that I had one of my older sisters with me and she sort of took care of me. Because that was a really violent home. And we were physically, emotionally, psychologically abused and then sexually abused by the foster son as well. And I, you know from what we can, what I can recollect, I was there for probably about 8 months. And my sister was there for a little bit longer, not much longer, a little bit. And then on my 5th birthday I was placed in my adoptive home, which was you know, in the newest suburb of Saskatoon. Now it’s sort of, it’s one of those neighborhoods that’s sort of in the middle of the city. But at the time, at the end of our block was the wide open prairie. And I was placed with a university professor and his wife who was a psychiatric nurse. And in my adoptive family, I had two older brothers and a sister who was about 8 months older. But my mother artificially twinned us, and there’s some information in the literature about that. It was a little, it was kind of cute, because my sister was blonde and blue eyed, and I was brown and brown eyed. And it was kinda cute to put us in matching outfits and the visual contrast. But it caused, it caused a lot of problems, particularly for my sister. And I don’t know that she ever actually recovered from my sort of, sudden installation into the family. Yeah, so you know, it was a really good home in many respects. We traveled. Shortly after I was placed, about 8 months later, we moved to west Germany, ‘cause my dad was a professor and he went on sabbatical. And so I started school in West Germany. In a little village outside of a university city called Tübingen. So I lived in a little village called Wankheim. And you know, in my child mind, everybody spoke English, but no, we learned, we spoke German. We became fluent, really, really quickly. And it was a really great educational system and so when we came back to Canada, we were all accelerated a grade, ‘cause we learned how to read and write, and add, subtract, multiply, divide. Came back to Canada and they handed me this big fat pencil and you know, wanted us to practice our ABCs and we’d been already writing with fountain pens. So I was like, okay. So I kinda twiddled my thumbs for a bit of time. But you know, it really helped me educationally I suppose. So we stayed in Saskatoon for a number of years and then my father got a ministerial appointment in Toronto at a United Church. And then, couple of years after that, he was appointed Dean of the Elegy at Queens University in Kingston, Ontario. And so you know, I had a bit of moving around, I went to like 11 schools, and not because we moved all the time, but because we came back to Saskatoon and we moved to a different sort of neighborhood, so I had to go to different school. We went to Toronto, lived in one neighborhood. Then I went to grade 7, so then I had to go to another school. And so I ended up going to 11 schools in 10 years. And you know it was difficult enough because as an indigenous child. You know kids are kinda mean. And if you’re different, then you’re a target. And I don’t know how much of it was, there was racism for sure but, but a lot of it was just ‘cause kids are mean to each other. And so, you know, so I sort of reconciled that a little bit, but, it was really challenging for me. And that was, that compounded the trauma I had of being taken away from a very loving, very nurturing, strong large family unit, into this entirely new culture, family, socioeconomic context. And with totally different expectations. So I developed a little bit of a chameleon nature, you know to adapt. I really learned, I learned sort of how to be classist, and racist, and you know, ‘cause I understood that. I had certain privileges in my adoptive family, that I wouldn’t have had otherwise.

Haley - Did you get to stay connected to any of your siblings?

Raven - No, no I didn't even, I mean as a kid one of the things that you do is if, if something’s really painful, then your memory steps in and you forget. So even though, I, my visible brownness was always a reminder that I was adopted, that I was not really a member of my family, a biological member of my family, I didn’t really have any understanding or conception that my family was real. That my birth family was real. And that they actually existed. And that was part of the thinking of the day that, when you’re adopted you just become part of your adoptive family and forget the past a kind of move on. That’s really problematic for indigenous adoptees, because you know that you’re different, and you’ll always know that you’re different, and at some point you start to wonder, well where did I come from, and who are my people and who looks like me. And yeah, so I, I just did my best to repress any thoughts or memories or longings for my family and carried on as if they just didn’t exist. And by the time I was a young adult, I really didn’t know whether or not they did exist. But you know the trauma, the traumas, eventually they manifest. And so by the time I was a teenager, I couldn’t handle school anymore because I was so lonely and so isolated. So I dropped out of high school at the end of 10th grade. I don’t, that wasn’t a really great idea because then I was sort of left floundering, you know. I started working as soon as I could. But you know I also became aware, I moved out and was living with friends and became aware that the lifestyle that we were living which involved a lot of substances, I was encountering people that I hadn’t ever, sort of grown up with. So I became keenly aware that this was not the lifestyle that really fit for me. And so, so I did a number of things. I did construction work, outside labor for about a year. And then I joined the military. I joined the Reserves, so I did it full time for the summer, part time for the winter. And then I was gonna go off and do the regular forces. And I was gonna become an electronics technician. So that was all set and then, I had an encounter with someone who said you know, that’s probably not a good idea for you. It was actually a psychic who said, you know, you have a lot of things you need to do in this life and if you go into the military, you’ll do none of them. And you know, I was kinda annoyed because I was really, I had my future all set. You know I’d already discovered that when you’re in the military, you don’t have to think, you only have to do what you’re told. And then the rewards come. So I was a little bit annoyed but there was something about what she said that resonated for me and so I withdrew my application from the military and kind of went off to live my life without really knowing what that involved. So when I was 19 one summer, I was working north of Toronto, doing outside work. And was in Toronto in the subway one day, and I saw this sign on the subway platform that said, are you a high school dropout? And do you wanna go to University? Well, call this number. And I called and it was, the University of Toronto had what they had a transitional year program. And so if you have dropped out or you haven’t had access to education for some reason, you can go into this program and they’ll help you sort of upgrade your skills, it’s like an upgrading program. And if you pass it then you can gain access to university. So that’s what I did. And then from that point, I basically stayed in university for the next 23 years. You know, I mean, it wasn’t, it took a long time because the first ten years really was my recovery. So I would take a class, and I would work full time and then I would spend a fair bit of money on therapy and counseling and doing group work and all those kinds of things because I knew that I was pretty traumatized and I, that there was something going on. So from, I’d say about 24 – 34 I really did a lot of recovery work. By the time I was in my early 30s, I felt fairly stable. And that was when I started my social work degrees. And from there it’s really sort of been no looking back. So I did my first degree in psychology and that took me like 15 years to do that degree. And then the social work took, took another 10, 12 years to do my bachelor’s, my master’s, and then my PhD. So in a nutshell, that’s sort of my story. Part of my, the impetus for me to go into University, was I, as a young adult I suddenly went, what’s going on here? Why was I placed in this family? And what, you know I had this narrative that, you know I had been rescued and saved from a horrible fate and I just wondered about that. Because there was something in me that just didn’t quite buy it. And I started meeting other adoptees. And you know I grew up without ever seeing other indigenous people and most of us did ‘cause we were sort of spirited off into very, these enclaves. We didn't encounter other indigenous people, our families didn’t have indigenous friends, we were part of a world that was, you know, generally quite privileged. Some of them.

Haley - Can you do a little teaching for us now. So we talk all the time about the Baby Scoop Era, and we’ve read the girls who went away, most of my listeners have, but you’re, we’re in Canada. And you are talking about the Sixties Scoop, which is what this time period has been named. And can you just give us a little snippet of what that means? ‘Cause you said you were kind of, all whisked away and you, I know that there was lots of indigenous people even placed in the U.S. Just, anyway, I’ll let you take that.

Raven - So most people know about the residential school system in Canada and the States. And, you know, in the 40s and 50s, the residential school system, I mean there were 150,000 indigenous children that went through that system and it was, you know, it was supported by the legal system. So people were compelled to send their children to those schools. And the purpose of the schools was to assimilate indigenous children. It was to alter our culture and to assimilate children into the Canadian body politic. Because you know, the early sort of the devisors of the program thought that the best way to deal with the Indian problem, was to assimilate us. And to, you know, as indigenous, our political leaders at that time, even were pretty astute and they recognized that really what it was about is the government sort of offloading their nation to nation agreements with us. That existed in the form of treaties. And we signed those treaties and said, we’ll live on these plots of land, and we’ll share the resources that come out of the rest of the territory. And that never really happened. So the view was that this would be sort of, the ultimate solution. We know that it didn’t work because you can’t assimilate a people that also live, in a system where there’s also a reserve system, a reservation system. And so those reserves have really served to hold or maintain that difference or that sort of cultural separateness or cultural uniqueness. But anyway, the residential school started to decline. They ran from about 1840s to the 19 – the last one closed in 1996. But they really began to fall into disrepair in the 50s. And at that time, in Canada, the federal government and the provincial governments were negotiating jurisdiction. And so child welfare was one of those areas where in the late 50s and early 60s, the provinces started to take over child and family services, you know, child welfare, family welfare and health education and those sorts of things. And you know, it’s sort of interesting ‘cause when you look at it historically, it’s not really written anywhere, I’m in the process of doing that now. But what happened as the residential schools declined, and the government started to infuse money into provincial social services, we see coincidentally, or not, a massive exponential increase in the number of indigenous children coming into care. And you know, when I sort of look at the big picture I think that, I mean the system is really built upon the backs of indigenous children and families. Because our children make up about, I’d say on average, 60% of all the children in care. And in some provinces it’s moving up to 90%. So in Saskatchewan, you know, of all the children who are in care, 80 – 90% are indigenous children. So that’s –

Haley - That’s shocking.

Raven - It is, yes, it’s really become an economic system. And that’s why it’s so difficult to change. But the Canada Assistance Program in the mid 60s, infused money into the provinces to take over child welfare and social services. And you know, at the same time we had these schools of social work putting out brand new social work programs and hence social workers out into the field who needed jobs and then we see all these kids coming into care. Now, I am a social worker and a social work educator and so I understand that child welfare serves a really important purpose. When it’s necessary. But when we look at indigenous children and the incredible numbers that were taken into care and in many instances how they were taken into care, and I say care in quotation marks, it’s really questionable and problematic because the numbers were so disproportionate. And in many instances the social workers would go on to reserves and just scoop up any kids they could find. In one community in B.C., a social worker chartered a bus on a weekend and apprehended 38 children. And in that community, they lost 100 children. And the community only had 300 band members. And so they lost, and in a number of communities across the country, they lost almost every children who was born in 1970-72. And then being placed in generally non indigenous homes. And then some were placed in homes and the people would move overseas. My family thought that I was still in Germany when we grew up. But there were also agreements made with agencies in the States, particularly in the Midwest States. And you know, what we’re discovering is a lot of kids were placed into farm homes, where they basically became farm laborers. So it wasn’t really a home at all, they were forced laborers. So they were fed, clothes, you know some lived in damp or flooded basements. And they, that’s all they did was they worked all day, didn’t even go to school. And so that’s kind of a questionable situation. And those agencies in Canada were receiving funds from those agencies in the states, for each child that was sent. So there was some financial incentive there.

Haley - So what, was there any intention of reunification with the families? Or it was just, scooped and gone?

Raven - Yeah, adoption does not have the intention of reunification. So between 1951 and 1991, there were about 22,400 status Indian children and Inuit children who were scooped and placed into nonindigenous adoptive and foster homes. If we include the Metis, Metis children, then I think the number is probably pushing 40-50,000. And it was interesting because I worked in adoptions and so what I know from that is, like I’m status Cree, but I was listed in, all of me and my siblings, and there’s a bunch of us, were were listed as Metis. And when I was talking to some of my colleagues in the department, they said well yeah, there was a tendency to want to have the children sort of written as less indigenous. ‘Cause then they were more adoptable. And so that’s one of the issues with Metis children and those survivors is that many of them were not recorded as Metis. ‘Cause if they were fair, it was easier to places them if they were presented as a white child. You know, that’s not the fault of adoptive parents, people want children who are going to sort of, pass on their legacy and that sort of thing. But it’s one of the reasons, I mean, so there’s this class action lawsuit that has, recently we’ve been victorious. And so Marcia Brown initiated a lawsuit back in 2004 and it took 13 years to get to the federal court where the judge sided with her and said yes, the federal government was responsible to ensure that there was no loss of culture. Because they’d breached that duty, yes, you win. And Marcia Brown turned, this was just an Ontario class action case. She turned around and said, the government approached her and said, we’re willing to settle. And she said okay I’ll settle, but you need to make this a national settlement and I want a healing foundation and I want you to include all survivors and they said yes to everything except they said we will not include the Metis and non-status Indians. And you know, lots of people are really angry about this in particular, Metis survivors. And one of the reasons that, what I believe happened is that it really has to do with the fact that, for status children, myself included, we were recorded through Indian affairs. Our information, our files were sent to Indian affairs, they kept a record. So it’s easy for them to make those determinations on who is part of the class. But for Metis children, many of them were not recorded, and so the paperwork is gonna be a bit of a nightmare. And it’s gonna take a bit of time for them to sort out how to determine who’s eligible and who’s not. Yeah, so I think you know, that sort of in a nutshell, I mean, we’ve come from this time in the early 50s, this transition from residential schools to the Scoop, and you know, that whole adoption process is really about, it furthers that agenda of assimilating us. And you know, for many of us it worked. In a way it worked because many of us, we have this world view that’s very non indigenous.

Haley - Can I stop you and go back to your personal story? So you’re, you said you were in therapy and you had a number of years taking classes here and there, and you worked your way, all the way up to a PhD in social work. At what point were you like, rediscovering, oh, I am an indigenous person, and I do have these lost connections. When did that come into focus for you?

Raven - Well that happens for all of us, right? And it’s a normal, I think for adoptees in general, it’s just becomes part of our search for self. Part of our maturing as human beings is we want to know who we’re connected to. We want to know where we come from, ideally we wanna be able to see people who look like us, who have our little idiosyncrasies. And so it’s sort of the natural part of being an adoptee. I mean it’s, there are the exceptions out there, people who are indigenous and non-adoptees, who are like, this is my family now, and I’m happy. And more power to them. They had a great experience, excellent, that’s what the system’s about, right? But for me what happened was, so I was functioning fairly well, you know I was going to university, I was working for immigration in the summers and I had a friend there and I went in one day and we were having coffee together. And I said, oh I had this really interesting dream. And you know, the dream was I was in this black hole and I couldn’t get out and I could see the top, the light at the top but I couldn’t get out. And she said oh, Raven, you need therapy. So she handed me the number of her therapist. And she was an amazing gestalt therapist in Toronto and I worked with her for a couple of years. And that was really sort of the start of it. And then a few months later, the same friend handed me this little piece of paper and said, you know you really shouldn’t be working here. Go work here and it was an advertisement for like a secretary or administrative assistant at the Toronto office of the Treaty 9 organization, the organization that represents Crees and Ojibwes in Ontario. And their head office was in Toronto. And so I applied and I got one of the jobs. And for the first time I was surrounded by indigenous people. And working in an indigenous organization, learning, you know, going to ceremonies, going to sweats, traveling to different communities. And I mean, that was a huge eye opener. And the spiritual piece was really, really an important element to that.

Haley - ‘Cause you’re adoptive father, you said he was a minister at one point in the United Church? So did you have that religious piece to your childhood as well?

Raven - My father was a really good guy. He was a busy professor and eventually when my parents separated when I was a teenager, he became, he re-parented me, I stayed with him and he really became my best friend and taught me a lot about life. But the United Church is sort of interesting because it’s pretty progressive. And kind of leftist in a way. Social justice oriented. And so yeah, we went to church a lot, we did our, sort of our social milieu was the United church. But when I got to be 14, 15, and 16, and I started to question, I said to my dad, I don’t think I wanna go to church anymore. And he was kinda sad and he said, I’m kinda sad about that, but you know you have to make your own decisions. So you know, if that’s what you wanna do, I’ll support that. A part of that was that I just had an inkling that it wasn’t really for me. I liked sort of the basic tenets of Christianity, of the United Church in particular, the Protestant faith. But I’d also had a lot of spiritual experiences in my life. And when I tried to share these with my dad, he was kind of the only one I really talked to, his interpretation was very western. And I started having these experiences where I would hear women talking to me in Cree, and he thought I, he said oh, I think you’re developing schizophrenia. Now when I was older and reculturating, so making contacts, spending time with elders, going into communities and that sort of thing, I had a chance to meet a really beautiful elder from northern Ontario. And I told her about this experience, this dream, these dreams that I was having and these voices I was hearing. And she said, well you were receiving teachings that women are supposed to receive at that sort of time in life. And so, you know, the ancestors were coming to you. And I said I had always sort of known that. And I got those teachings at that time with her, but you know, it really highlighted the differences in culture and just ways of sort of viewing the world. Even though I had been raised in this very white, upper middle class, Anglo Saxon Protestant context, it couldn’t stop the fact that I was an indigenous person and that I had all these experiences. And I had this way of understanding the world that no one else around me could, I didn’t really share it with people because they didn’t get it. So you know I went to summer camp every year and when I got older I became a counselor in training and then a camp counselor. I always took those opportunities to really spend time on the land by myself. I would always find a spot and that’s where I would retreat to. And just really feel the energy and I mean, that’s, that connection to the land. I didn’t like to share it with people because they would just sort of, they would frame it in that sort of romantic Indian image. Oh yes, your people are so connected to the land, right? I didn’t want to hear those sorts of things. ‘Cause that’s too simplistic, that’s just too simplistic in understanding. You know, that was 30 years ago. Now that I’m much older, I understand that fundamental teachings in any religion are the same. And they’re very much aligned with indigenous knowledge, our prelaws, we call them creator’s laws. And yeah, there’s no conflicts there at all. And so I don’t have any issues with anybody’s religious or spiritual beliefs, because I think at their essence, they're pretty much the same. I mean, now what we do with those teachings as human beings is another matter. Topic for another podcast.

Haley - Yes. So you had these experiences then, when you were working in this office with other indigenous people and you were able to experience things that you, you likely didn’t even when you were, ‘cause you were so tiny when you were apprehended.

Raven - Well I have to tell you a story about working in that office.

Haley - Okay.

Raven - So in 1985 they changed the Indian Act and put in this bill, C-31 which allowed indigenous people who had lost their status because of the Indian Act itself, to reclaim status. And I had grown up thinking that I was a Metis, French Metis. And so one of my colleagues, a Metis researcher came to me and said, have you applied for your status? And I said, well I’m Metis. And she said, no you’re not, look in the mirror.

Haley - Oh!

Raven - She said, you’re definitely not. And she said, put in your application, so I did. And then she said, have you reconnected with your family? And I said, no, I wouldn’t even know where to begin. And she said, well you’re a Sinclair for God’ sakes, send a letter to Jim Sinclair, he was the president of the Saskatchewan non status and Metis of Saskatchewan. So I did and yeah, within, like, 11 days, I found my family. And discovered that I was not French Metis, I was Cree. Scottish Cree and Scottish.

Haley - Wow, and so you’ve changed your name then.

Raven - Yes. I returned to my birth name. ‘Cause I was raised with a very a WASP name that shall not be repeated.

Haley - Okay. Can you tell me about where you were in your, you were saying reculturating. Where you were in that when you reconnected with your family?

Raven - In the early stages. So you know, it was in my early 20s when I started to work for Nishnawbe Aski nation in Toronto and then found my family couple years later. And then came out to Saskatoon to visit and then went back home and I, you know I didn’t really understand about attachment. ‘Cause I grew up really attachment disordered. I was not able to attach for the most, for the bulk of my adult life, it’s only the last few years I’ve really been able to reattach to other people. But even then you know, our deep, sort of yearnings still are in operation and so I really wanted to be with my family. And I knew that it wouldn’t be all roses and sunshine but I had to, I had to move back out. So I moved back out to Saskatoon when I was 27 in 1988. And basically stayed here, I had a brief stint in Alberta in 1990-91 but, basically have been here ever since. And it’s been a 30 year journey, reattaching to my siblings. Both my parents are now deceased, but I had a chance to spend a decade getting to know my mom a little bit. And she was really damaged by the residential schools. You know, sort of almost permanently harmed. But my siblings you know, we had our ups and downs, lots of downs, dealing with intergenerational issues, but we’re at this point now where it’s like, I have siblings. And they love me unconditionally. And I love them unconditionally. And it’s an amazing thing for an adoptee to have that, to have that again. And unfortunately ‘cause I also have my adoptive family, and I’m not that close with them, but I love them. And they play a really important role in my life. They’re important to me.

Haley - Wow, thank you for sharing some of your personal journey. I know you’re an academic and you’ve written a ton of papers and do a lot of research. And I want to get to that as well. But it was nice to really have that insight into you. Can you tell us now, you are an executive advisor to that Sixties Scoop healing foundation, that you were mentioning as a result of the class action lawsuit. And you also wrote to me in your guest forum here, that there’s some things that indigenous adoptees in the US need to know and probably in Canada as well if they’re not already aware of. What needs to happen next for them to make a claim?

Raven - Yes, the class action suit, well. It’s such an interesting one. What it’s done is, there’s 850 million and 750 million is in direct compensation. 15 million is for the healing foundation, the initial infusion of funds. And then 75 million for the legal fees. So I guess the first thing that survivors need to know, and Canada, the States, anywhere around the world, is that you don’t need a lawyer. All you need to do is you need to go to SixtiesScoopSettlement.info. That is the class action administrator’s website. And that, or you can, the administrator, they’re called Collectiva. And Collectiva, they handle all kinds of settlements for different class action groups. But on there, it says Sixties Scoop so you can click on that link and there’s a page that comes up and it has the latest updates right there on the page and then at the top, there’s a number of different links and one of them is claim forms. So you click on the claim form and just you fill out what you know, what you have. And you know, make sure to let them know if you change your address and give them your, update your, make sure your contact information is updated. But you don’t need any of your child welfare records. So the criteria for members is that you have to have been removed and made a crown ward or a permanent ward between 1951 and 1991. And placed in a non-indigenous home. So there are kids were placed into indigenous homes. And they wouldn’t be eligible. So you have to have your status. And so if you have some doubt about whether you have status or not, then all you have to do is go to, you know you can type into Google, Indian Affairs Canada, Indian status application. And it will take you right to the status form and then you fill that out and submit it. And then still go ahead and submit your claim form to Collectiva. Because you know, there’s people there that are gonna be working to make the determinations on eligibility and so you know, if you know you’re a band member but you don’t have your actual number or your card, then you know, submit that form to Indian Affairs and in the meantime, submit your claim form and then once it’s updated you know, send Collectiva a quick email and let them know, oh here’s my status number. They have all the records and so that’s one of the advantages is that you fill out this claim form to the best of your ability, put in as much information as you can remember and for the most part it’ll be fairly easy for them to cross reference that with the information that they have ‘cause they have those records of status and Inuit children who were removed. And doesn’t matter where they were removed to. So you don’t need a lawyer, all you need to do is fill out that claim form. You don’t need your child welfare records. And you either have to have your treaty status number or be eligible for it and fill out that form. You have until August 31 of 2019 to fill out that form and submit it. So you can print it out and mail it or you can do it online and then hit the submit button and then wait for the confirmation number and then just take a picture of that or a screenshot or you know, keep, record that number so that you have your confirmation number. And then the government has to make the determination on each application. And we will be, we will receive payment next January, February.

Haley - Thank you for that info, I’m sure it’s gonna be helpful for a lot of people and I look forward to seeing what happens with the Sixties Scoop healing foundation and I’m curiously watching, what’s gonna happen with that. So it’s great that you’re working with them.

Raven - One of the things we’re gonna be doing initially is, because the foundation is supposed to be run by survivors, we’re gonna be engaging in a national consultation across the country to ask survivors, who do you want to run this foundation, how do you want it to run, what programs and services to you want it to offer and then from there, they will sort of build the foundation. So it’s quite an exciting process.

Haley - Yeah, I was reading about it on the website, it looks really interesting. I’ll have links to all of these things that Dr. Sinclair is mentioning in the show notes. So if you didn’t get a chance to write it down, don’t worry, go to the show notes and there’ll be links for all those things. And before we do recommended resources, we’re gonna talk about some of your work and your film in that time, is there anything that you just wanna tells us as listeners, just about the current state of foster care and the, in Canada specifically, as an outsider looking in. You were telling us the stats, between 60 to 90% of kids in care are indigenous and you know, are kids still being taken from families just because they’re indigenous? Is there still, in my show we talk a lot about family preservation and just the critical need for that. And there’s mothers in crisis all the time, just financial crisis or they lack social supports who will be coerced into placing their infants for adoption. Can you talk about that for, in Canada, with the government system and what that looks like right now? And things that we need to know so we can be advocating for kids to stay with their families?

Raven - Yes, and I could talk about this for a long time, so I’ll try to be as succinct as possible. So yeah, I mean, we still have an incredible overrepresentation of indigenous children in care. And like for example, in Manitoba, they're apprehending almost daily an indigenous child. And the way that the system is set up right now, it’s really set up to disadvantage indigenous children and families. So when I look at the, for example, the risk assessment model they use in Ontario, you know, someone could come and take my child. Because some of the risks are, are you an intergenerational residential school survivor? Are you a survivor of the child welfare system? And, have you ever had substance or drug abuse issues? I could check off every single one of those. And I'm a risk factor for parenting my daughter who’s about to turn 14. It’s like, what’s so interesting because you know, it doesn’t ask in there if you’ve got a PhD. If you’re an educator, if you’re published, if you’re, you know, a national representative. But in terms of the risk factors, yeah. So what that does, it provides the justification for basically removal for any minor reason. What happens is then, our children go into foster care. And once they’re in foster care, we’re at a terrible risk of losing them because if a foster family has had a child for you know, 8 months or a year, and they decide they wanna keep that child, then foster care is an option. And you know, I’ve talked to social recruits who tell me that, there are foster care workers who are telling them, if you wanna have a child, don’t go through the adoption, it’ll take too long. Go through the foster care system. ‘Cause once you have a child for a period of time, you’ll be able to keep them. So what’s happened across the country, is agencies have implemented policies that if a foster family refuses to return a child, and they wanna seek permanency, then they’re giving them they’re day in court. And once it gets to court, we almost invariably lose because of a supreme court case in 1983 called Racine and Woods. And in this case what happened was, the mother had placed her child with friends. And when she went back a year later to retrieve her child, they said no. So she took them to curt and she lost and she appealed. And at the appeal court she won and the judge said, yes, this child should be with the mother. And so the foster family took it to the supreme court. 7 years later, now the child’s been in care with this foster family, you know she’s like, 9, 10. And the judge said you know, now she’s too attached to this family. And so we can’t disrupt the bonding and attachment, that would be just harmful. And not only that, but the whole cultural piece surrounding an indigenous child, well that just gets, that’s not important. It gets less imp the longer a child is with a family. Now as a researcher and a survivor, I know that both of those things are absolutely not true. Even for indigenous adoptees who are adopted at birth, many of them never attach to their adoptive families. Because of the difference, that sort of, that almost sort of institutionalized difference that’s created through the adoption mechanism itself but also through the visual and identity issues. And also of all the adoptees I know, like 98% have reculturated, they have gone back to family, community, culture. And that happens anywhere from you know, late teens to 30s, usually it’s in late 20s, 30s, and even some 40s and 50s. but almost everybody goes back. So this supreme court case, the provincial courts are relying on to keep our children with foster families, is fundamentally flawed. But because lower courts are bound by supreme court decisions, they basically only have to make reference to this case of Racine and Woods, and the judge, the presiding judge will go, yeah, yeah. This child’s attached to his foster family and so you know, we’ll make sure that they go to cultural events once a year and everything will be well. And it’s like, no no no, this class action case should provide ample warning that not all is well. And it will not be well. It will not.

Haley - Oh my goodness. It is shocking.

Raven - Yeah, the same thing’s happening and you know as an academic, one of the things I’m doing is working with lawyers and being called upon to be an expert witness and to provide written submissions where I challenge some of these arguments, particularly this one, Racine and Woods. And you know we’re having, it’s having an impact. It’s slow but the more cases we win, the more the precedent is set that we’ll challenge that particular case. And then people won’t just assume that you know, if you put a child in a family that they’re gonna attach to them and everything’s gonna be hunky dory down the road. It doesn’t work that way.

Haley - Thank you for your insights on that. That is fascinating and so sad that you know, that one case can, I mean it does it impacts so many families. And yeah, okay, again, I could go on about that. I wanted to do recommended resources with you. Now as I said before, Dr. Sinclair is a writer, an academic, researcher and she also has a film called Trouble in the Garden. And from what I understand you’re screening it this year, 2019, and I watched the trailer, again. And it’s so, oh my goodness. You have to go watch the trailer. I’ll link to it in the show notes. So there is an indigenous girl who is adopted into a white family. And at one point in the trailer, the brother says, before my parents rescued her. And isn’t that the traditional like, white savior-ism narrative? But can you tell us a little bit about the film, Dr. Sinclair?

Raven - Sure. Yeah, so I got a cold call one day from this woman called Roz Owen. And she’s the director of the film. And she said, you know I’m making this film and I’ve got the script, and I’m ready, just about finished writing the script. And wanted to talk to you about it. So we had a really great conversation. And one of the things that sort of really solidified us working together was she said, you know, I wanna do this film and base it upon sort of the theme or the approach that was taken in this, she said, you won’t know what the title is, but it’s this Swedish film that was really hard hitting and I said, I think I know what film you're talking about. And she told me the title, it’s called The Celebration. And it’s a subtitled Swedish film that was done in the 1990s. And it was, I said, oh my god, that’s one of my all time favorite films. And anyway, so I said, you know, why don’t you send me the script and I’ll take a look at it. And so I, you know, it was like reading a good novel, I couldn’t put it down. But I could also see where, as a non-indigenous person, there were some problems with it. There were some problems with the script, some problems with the scenes and so I called Roz and said, would you be willing to have, for me to edit this script? And provide some suggestions and she was like, absolutely. And so I just, I went over, we went over word for word over months. Yeah, and she was just so open to my involvement. Like some of the dialogue is mine. And some of the scenes are mine. And that was just so wonderful. And at point at the end there, she said, you know, I’m gonna make you an executive producer because of your work on it. And I was like, yay. Didn't know what that means, but I like it.

Haley - It looks very important, I love it. Yeah, so it’s gonna be screening in 2019, I know you’ve already had at least one or more, I think by the time this airs, you’ll have had a couple more.

Raven - It’s, it was across the country, actually. And then Toronto and Edmonton I think last week. It’s gonna be in Regina this, on the first at the Rainbow and then on the 8th in Saskatoon, Roz is gonna come in and we’re doing, we’ll do a screening and then a Q & A and a panel.

Haley - Oh. Fantastic.Okay, so I definitely want people to put that on their radar, and check it out if it comes near you and then in the future when it’s streaming. And also, I’m gonna link to some of the articles that Dr. Sinclair has written. You know, I really think that people need to educate themselves about the Sixties Scoop. And Dr. Sinclair sent me website that has a whole ton of resources that talk all about the Sixties Scoop. Especially if you’re Canadian, you really need to know more about what’s happened here and what’s happening with the class action victory and all of those things. So you absolutely need to familiarize yourself with those things. It’s critical for us to know and especially as adoptees, to know what our fellow indigenous adoptees have gone through. Dr. Sinclair, what did you want to recommend to us today?

Raven - Well I would really like people to see the film. So you know, if you see it kind of in your area, then check it out. You know, we’re still in the marketing part of it, and so you know, I’m hoping that even maybe Netflix will pick it up. It’s getting really good reviews. It’s really insightful, I think that all adoptees will appreciate it because you know, there’s common themes whether you’re an inracial or transracial adoptee. Same race or transracial adoptee. You sort of understand lots of the same issues of dislocation and identity and all of those sorts of things. But I think it’s well done and it’s not soap box-y. And it’s not, it’s not like sort of a happily ever after, it’s a little bit hard hitting. But realistic, and also I think you know, it’s really important that it shows that for adoptive families and parents in particular, many of them had a really great intentions and things didn’t go well for them either. And so that’s an important, I think, perspective to have. So I think it’s a really good educational piece. And I really, I like it, and it’s getting good reviews, so check it out!

Haley - Fantastic.

Raven - So another resource that I would recommend is the National Indigenous Survivors of Child Welfare Network. And the executive director there is and founder is Colleen Cardinal. Colleen is quite the character, she’s a real strong advocate for survivors. She has sort of single handedly created this organization to represent and support indigenous adoptees and foster survivors from across the country. And she’s put on 4 gatherings. And so the 5th one’s going to be this August in Ontario and you know, she’s even managed to get the funding to fly people in, and bring in cultural teachings and activities. And just entertainment and the opportunity for people to get together with other survivors for some, has just been really profound. And yeah, she’s got her finger in all sorts of pies. We’re working together right now to create an online platform, a geographical information systems platform, to connect adoptees and it’s interactive so you’ll be able to go to this website, basically see a map of the world, and see where adoptees in Canada, indigenous adoptees have been dispersed to, around the world. And read their stories, and watch videos, little video clips of their stories and read their poetry and their artwork and that sort of thing. So yeah, she’s a mover and a shaker, that girl. So it’s the National Indigenous Survivors of Child Welfare Network and she also just recently wrote a book, by Fernwood Press and it’s called, it’s a Cree word, but then the subtitle or the translation is, Raised Somewhere Else. So there’s another source for people to check out.

Haley - Absolutely, I’ll link to all of those things. Thank you, thank you so much for your time and sharing your story with us and your expertise. Where can we connect with you online?

Raven - If you google me, you can find my numbers, my contact information. I can be reached at the University of Regina, yeah, I’m pretty easy to reach.

Haley - Perfect.

Raven - I’m on social media, I’m on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, just message me.

Haley - Alright, I will put links to all of those in the show notes. Thanks so much Dr. Sinclair.

(upbeat music)

Haley - In the upcoming weeks we will be hearing from other Sixties Scoop survivors and we’ll be also doing some Healing Series episodes, so that’s some of what you can look forward to in the next couple of months. I also wanna let you know that I have a, almost monthly newsletter and I’m getting ready to send that out. If you would like to stay connected with me and read some of my, I don’t know, essays, sorta. If I had a blog, these are some of the things I would post on it. But this is a little more private, just between me and my newsletter subscribers. So if you wanna sign up for that, go to AdopteesOn.com/newsletter. I’d love to keep in touch with you that way. I also just wanna say a big thank you again to my monthly Patreon supporters. Thank you so much for partnering with me, I wouldn’t be able to do the podcast without you. If you wanna be a partner and share Adoptees On with more adopted people around the world, go to AdopteesOn.com/partner. Thanks so much for listening, let’s talk again next Friday.

(exit music)

109 [Healing Series] Self-Compassion with Kristin Jones, CMHC

Transcript

Full show notes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/109

Episode Transcription by Fayelle Ewuakye. Find her on Twitter at @FayelleEwuakye

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This show is listener supported. You can join us and help our show grow to support more adoptees, by going to AdopteesOn.com/partner.

(intro music)

You’re listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. I’m your host Haley Radke. And this is a special episode in our Healing Series, where I interview therapists who are also adoptees themselves, so they know from personal experience what it feels like to be an adoptee. Today we are talking about self-compassion. Let’s listen in.

(upbeat music)

Haley - I’m so pleased to welcome to Adoptees On today, Kristin Jones. Welcome Kristin!

Kristin - Thank you Haley, it’s great to be here.

Haley - I’m so excited to talk with you, Kristin today, and since it’s the first time that you’re on the show, can you share just a little bit of your story with us?

Kristin - Sure! So, I was adopted in 1968, it was a closed adoption as so many were back then. And I went for a long time in my life with every once in awhile, I would have questions or wonder about my birth parents but I didn’t really pursue that too much. I was pretty sensitive to my adoptive parents and didn’t wanna hurt feelings. And then about 8 years ago, I had been toying with the idea for about maybe 15 years about you know, I’m gonna go search and see if I can find these people. But I didn't really have any good leads. And then about 8 years ago, my dad, my adoptive father was retiring. And he cleaned out a file cabinet and it had some paperwork from the hospital that they weren’t supposed to receive. And on this paperwork was my birth mother’s full name, and address at the time that she had me. And oh, and also my birth father’s name was on this paperwork too so –

Haley - Wow! That’s amazing!

Kristin - Oh, very much so. I feel very lucky, a lot of adoptees don’t have that kind of information to start with. And so we were able to use her address, my birth mother’s address to kind of, suss out what high school she may have attended back then. She was 18 when she had me. And we found her in the yearbook. And this high school a website for their reunion page and it had all these addresses and contact information for their graduates. So I was able to send her a letter. And she did respond, and she requested that I not contact her again, and that I not contact anyone in the family. And so I, you know, it was one of those secondary rejections that so many of us experience. And it was devastating. And so we haven’t had any contact for the last 8 years. And then my birth father, we kind of tracked him down in the same way. He went to a high school that was not the same high school as hers but nearby. And so we found him in the yearbook and then found an address for him and sent him a letter. And he responded and we have kind of one of those lukewarm reunions, you know? So we talk occasionally, we’ve met a few times. And that’s kind of the extent of it.

Haley - Okay. So you know what we go through. You are very much an adoptee that understands, I’m so sorry for the secondary rejection. I know that intimately.

Kristin - Yes.

Haley - Okay, well, you’re the perfect person to talk to us about today, about self-compassion. So you know that we’ve talked briefly about self-compassion before on this show, we’ve mentioned Kris Neff’s book about self-compassion and a few people have mentioned it here and there. And I feel like it’s kind of a buzz word online. But like, what is that? What is self-compassion? Sounds kind of elusive.

Kristin - Right yes. Completely. So I would say that self-compassion is the act of treating yourself in a kind way, much the way you would your best and dearest friend. A lot of us really struggle with that, we aren’t very kind to ourselves. The other element of self-compassion is that, it really is an action. It’s an active practice. And we can talk more about kind of, ways to do that as we go along. But when I was, so I’ve been incorporating self-compassion in a lot of my therapy work for about the past year and a half. I've really brought it into focus in my therapy work. And then I also teach yoga part time, and I was preparing a yoga and self-compassion workshop, and I read this quote by Tera Brach, and she says that when we feel held by a caring presence, by something that’s larger, our small frightened fragmented self, we can hold that in loving kindness and kind of repair those fragments. And when I read that, that’s a summary of that quote, and when I read that, it was almost this aha moment for me that really resonated in terms of adoption specifically. Because I think so many of us, that’s what we’re seeking, right? There’s a young part of us that wants to feel held and loved and cared for by a nurturing parent. And so it was kind of this, everything from then on, that I read about self-compassion, I would see through this lens of adoption.

Haley - Oh my gosh, well when you say fragmented, I mean, of course. That’s how we feel.

Kristin - Right, exactly.

Haley - Wow, okay. So this sounds like, of course, adoptees need to have compassion for themselves, but what does that look like in practice, being kind to yourself?

Kristin - Yeah, so, maybe I can back up. You know, we all have experiences, all of us as humans, have early experiences that kind of shape our core beliefs about ourselves. And many times these experiences are even pre-verbal, you know so when we’re very, very young. And a lot of times, these experiences, these core beliefs are things about ourselves and then things about the world around us and others. So for example, through adoption, some of my core beliefs are that I’m unlovable, that people always leave me, that you know, I’m rejected. Like those are some of those core beliefs and those get triggered. You know, we talk about triggers a lot, another buzz word. And those beliefs often get triggered by experiences that are happening in the present moment that aren’t necessarily aren’t related to that belief. And so, through self-compassion, we can first recognize that those emotions are being triggered and those beliefs are being triggered.

Haley - Okay I know a lot of adoptees feel those ways and have those you know, core beliefs about ourselves. Like, we’re unwanted, and just feels like such a big huge thing to overcome and that yeah, we get triggered all the time. And so how does self-compassion this kind of fit into that?

Kristin - Yeah, so I think most of us are pretty aware when we get triggered, like we notice some kind of flare up of emotion. And that awareness, if we can step back from that with mindfulness and just observe ourselves experiencing that emotion. That’s the first step to being self-compassionate is you have to have that awareness, that mindful awareness, that you know, I’m having this emotion brought up, or this belief brought up. And to be curious about that, what is this really about, is this really what’s happening in the moment. Or is this something that’s you know, past. And then from there, we can take a moment to just remind ourselves that, pain and suffering are a part of everyday experience and many adoptees have a lot of pain that they deal with. And we don’t feel so alone and isolated in our pain. And then to continue that, is to take a breath, to talk to our self in a kind and caring way. So I might say to myself, this is a moment where I’m feeling some pain, I don’t feel lovable and that’s painful to me. And so I’m just gonna hold myself here, metaphorically speaking of course, and show myself a little love and compassion for my pain, and my suffering. And I might even say things to myself that I would want to hear from a parent like, I’m not gonna leave you, I’m right here for you. And really kind of trying to fill that need that we have. And then, we can go on to do activities that really help us kind of soothe ourselves in that escalated emotion.

Haley - Okay, it sounds like there is a big gap between the parts of ourselves that are really critical and very hard on ourselves, to getting to the point where we can just hold ourselves and speak kindly. So can you fill in, fill in the steps in between that? What’s a first step towards that? Okay, so we have awareness in the moment?

Kristin - Yep.

Haley - Then?

Kristin - So then the next step would be, okay, I’m aware that maybe this isn’t, how I’m feeling isn’t necessarily related to what’s happening right now. And then to kind of turn that lens, I think one great way to think about this is, if a dear friend were having this experience, this emotion, or this belief, if a friend was saying to you, Haley, I feel really unlovable right now. Like you probably wouldn’t say, suck it up. You probably wouldn’t say like, oh that’s no big deal that you feel that way. Like you would probably take some time with them and say things like, you know, but really, you are lovable and you’ve gone through hard things in your life and it’s understandable that you feel this way, I get it. ‘Cause I would feel unlovable too if I experienced that. But really that’s just an emotion that you’ll have that passes and just know that I’m never gonna leave you and that I’m here for you.

Haley - Well it’s a lot easier to think about saying that to someone else--

Kristin - Yes!

Haley - Than ourselves. Okay, so would you tell a client that? To like, practice talking to a friend if they were experiencing this?

Kristin - Yes, absolutely. And there’s a lot of different writing, like journaling you can do about this. So you might take one of those beliefs that you know is a common belief of yours, like mine is I’m unlovable and that’s kind of a belief that gets triggered a lot for me. And then you might sit down and write a letter as if you are writing to a friend who told you they were unlovable. So you practice this way of you know, talking, and it really is easier when you think about it in terms of you know, something we would say to a friend. Because we really would never talk to our friends the way we talk to ourselves.

Haley - Yeah, no kidding. Or we would have no friends.

Kristin - Yes. Exactly right. And that’s actually something really interesting about a self-compassion practice, because when we’re triggered, what triggers is the fight, flight, or freeze response. And there’s research that shows that when we have self-compassion, that the reaction that’s triggered in us, is the system called the tend and befriend system. And that really is the system of attachment. So if you think about adoptees, we have severed attachments when we’re born. And, or sometimes later if you’re adopted at a later age. So we have these severed attachments, so our attachment system has been wounded in this way. And so when we engage in a practice of self-compassion, we’re really engaging that tend and befriend system. And in that way I think we can heal our own attachment wounds.

Haley - So over time, building this scale, your brain kind of retrains itself to not necessarily to go to be like, oh my gosh, I’m the worst.

Kristin - Right.

Haley - And then you learn to have a kind response to yourself.

Kristin - Yes.

Haley - And so if I say that over time, like, how long does it take to learn to do this? Like, to me, I mean I’m kind of laughing about it, but this sounds very stretching and very challenging, especially for people that are very wounded. And like, could very well like not believe any of these things about themselves. Like yes, I actually am unlovable. So it feels like a longer path than just okay, now I know this tool, I’m gonna write myself some letters and I’m good.

Kristin - Right, that does sound so easy, but it’s not easy. I really think of it as a practice and I think for a lot of us it’s a lifetime practice. You know, it gets easier as time goes on. But I think we’re always gonna have moments where that stuff gets triggered, where we can’t be kind to ourselves, where it just kind of, you know sometimes we go back after. After that period of self-loathing, or self-hatred, kind of is over, we can go back and readdress it. But I do think it’s a practice, I don’t think it’s ever something that, you know it’s not a checkbox that you can check off a list and say oh okay, now I’m always compassionate to myself, I’m always kind to myself, check. Did that. I like lists, so, I’m a big checklist person.

Haley - Me too! I’ve never thought of putting kindness and like my healing on a checklist.

Kristin - Well you’d never check it off fully, probably.

Haley - No, so why would I put it on a list if I know I’m not gonna get to it.

Kristin - But you’d work towards it. It’s a work in progress, we’re all works in progress.

Haley - Yes, very good. Okay, why don’t you just walk us through again, just another example of what this looks like? Like a, experience in your life maybe, that you had that you’re like okay, I used self-compassion and this is how this benefitted. Just to give us a picture of what this looks like in day to day life.

Kristin - Oh yeah, I have many of these experiences, they come up all the time. Last summer, my family and I, we were vacationing on the beach and my husband and the kids were down at the beach and I was walking down to meet them. And I sent my husband a text message and I said hey, where are you guys? I’m coming down, and he sent back a picture of the kids in front of the ocean.

Haley - With landmarks?

Kristin - No, landmarks, just ocean, right? It was a great picture, but I was like, okay, you know, just could not fathom where they were from this picture. And almost instantaneously I had this thought of, he’s sick of me. Like he doesn’t want me there. Like we’ve been on this vacation for 5 days now and he needs a break from me and so he’s being intentionally vague so that I can’t find him. And because I’ve worked on this issue for a long time, I kind of recognize, there was a part of me that was sort of observing this happen, that’s the mindfulness piece, when you can observe yourself kind of from a distance a little bit. And so there was part of me that was really feeling it, feeling rejected and like, oh he doesn’t want me here anymore, he’s sick of me. And then there was another part of me that was like, okay, wait a minute. Like, you know, he usually doesn’t handle that. If he needed a break, he would probably just tell you. Like, this is, so I’m noticing that I’m feeling this way. And I even, and this wouldn’t have gone this way, you know, 10 years before but, you know, I even said to myself, ugh, this feels like adoption stuff. Because anytime I have that thing of, oh people don’t wanna be around me, that’s that rejection. And so there was a part of me that kind of wondered if that’s what it was. And so I was able to take a few deep breaths and send him another text and I said, hey, like, did you mean to be vague? Because I really can’t tell where you are. And he said, oh no, like of course not. And then he sent me another picture of a building, which I think normally would have been a good landmark, but I just wasn’t aware of where this building was. And so I was still kind of like, clueless.

Haley - So I walk left or right? Just give me a direction.

Kristin - Yeah. So but I could tell that I was still really worked up. So in the past, what I would have done in that situation, because my way to handle triggers in the past was to kind of get passive aggressive. I think a lot of us can relate to that. And so for me what I would have done in the past is I would have just been, I would have text something like, oh forget it. And then I would have gone back to the house and I would have started cooking dinner for my family but with a lot of like, cupboard slamming and like, you know.

Haley - I don’t know anyone that does that. I don’t know anyone else that does that. Yeah.

Kristin - Yeah, and you know, and then probably our old pattern would have been, he would have come home and said hey, like, is everything okay. And I would have been oh yeah, it’s fine. And then I wouldn’t have spoken to him for the rest of the night. So that’s you know, 10 years ago, maybe even, 2 years ago sometimes. But you know, because I’ve been working on this, there’s a part of me that said, and in this moment I said, oh, I’m still feeling really awful. Like I just feel icky. Like I had that triggered feeling so I really felt, I still felt kind of abandoned and alone. And I didn’t think it would be good for me to join them because I thought I might stay in that dis-regulated state. And so I text him and I said, hey like, and I had told him that I was feeling kind of triggered. And I said I’m just gonna go back to the house, and I’ll see you when you get back. And so as I was walking about to the house, I was saying to myself like, this is just a moment where you’re experiencing some pain. And you know, it’s okay to feel this way. But I need to also take care of myself in a way that’s going to make me feel better. And so I was able to go back to the house and do some things that I do for self-care, you know I journaled and I do meditation and so by the time they got back and I had started cooking dinner. I wasn’t slamming cupboards anymore, and I was able to reconnect with my family. Which is kind of where that attachment system piece comes in, right, that tend and befriend. Because I showed myself kindness, and took care of my needs, I was able to be in that place of relationship. And you know, that helps to foster these relationships with my family. Whereas before I wouldn’t have been in that place of relationship and I would have behaved in a way that no one really would have wanted to be around me. I would have made my own belief come true because I, you know, they wouldn’t want to be around me when I’m slamming cupboards and I’m saying oh I’m fine.

Haley - Right, ‘cause you were like, oh they don’t even want me there. And later you act like it and then they literally don’t want you there.

Kristin - Exactly. And I think that’s how we sabotage ourselves as adoptees all the time.

Haley - Yeah, okay. Guilty.

Kristin - Right? Me too, clearly.

Haley - Okay, yep. Well I love that example. It’s a whole picture of that. Is there anything else that you just want adopted people to know about this? How it can benefit them or how they can put this into practice? How beneficial it is? Anything that you wanna say to us?

Kristin - I’d actually love to do, just kind of a really quick self-compassion exercise. Your listeners could do it at home, and you could do it. If you’re up for it.

Haley - Okay! It’s an experiment for me. I’m ready.

Kristin - You’re the guinea pig for everybody.

Haley - Yes I am. I’m okay with it.

Kristin - Okay, good. We’ll carry on. Okay Haley, I’d like you to just take a minute and close your eyes. And take a couple of slow deep breaths. And everyone at home can do the same, close your eyes and take a few slow, deep breaths. And then call to mind a time when you felt triggered. Where you felt a very painful thought, belief, or emotion come up. And notice how that feels in your body, when you’re feeling that pain. And notice any other thoughts that might bring up, without judgement, just notice them. Now, take your hands and rub them together, generate some heat between your hands. Rub them fast. And then take your hands and you can place them over your heart or over your, on your cheeks. And then, just allow that warmth to permeate into your skin. And say to yourself, this is a moment I’m hurting. And I care about this pain that I’m experiencing. I’m not alone in my pain. I’m here, and I love myself. And I’m not ever leaving. Now notice if anything has changed in your body. Has anything changed with the thoughts that you’re feeling, or the emotions that you’re having. And take one more deep long inhale and exhale. And then you can slowly blink open your eyes.

Haley - Okay. I, okay, so here’s my full disclosure. I think that’s gonna be a very powerful moment for people to work through that. And I feel like I had it halfway, ‘cause my brain is still like, in podcaster mode and thinking like, okay, what am I gonna say to her right after. So I was having like, half the experience and then half, so I’m torn. I’m gonna replay this to myself ‘cause I have the recording. And I’ll do it after. But I did notice a shift in my body, which I just thought was so funny because I wasn’t totally paying attention. So I got half the effort but I still felt the shift.

Kristin - You know, Haley, that’s an example of something that you can do for yourself in any moment. Sometimes now I’ll just place a hand over my heart, as I’m going through my day. And just kind of take a moment to say like, I care about myself. I love myself. And it definitely is a practice, it’s not something I’m great at all the time. But it’s also something that a therapist could do in a therapy session for you, something that could last a little longer. That was really brief. But I think sometimes that can be really powerful experience. But you’re right, sometimes when we’re half in and half out.

Haley - I’m pretty sure I would have cried had I been all the way in. so in case you’re waiting for tears, I think that’s why there weren’t any. But yeah, there’s just something about literally, for me, it’s saying that you love yourself is hard. That I would say I love myself. Like even though word choice I used right away, putting it in the third person, right?

Kristin - Right.

Haley - Thank you. That was very special. Anything else that you wanna leave us with?

Kristin - I think my heart goes out to all of us as adoptees. It can be really hard sometimes and we really do sit and carry so much pain. But I do take comfort in the fact that we aren’t alone, that we’re kinda in this together, you know? And so, yeah.

Haley - And I mentioned it before, but you wanna just tell us a little bit about Kris Neff’s book?

Kristin - Yes! So her book is called Self-Compassion, the Proven Power of Being Kind to Yourself. And it’s a wonderful book, it’s filled with exercises that you can do, which I think are great and it kind of outlines these three steps in more detail of you know, how to be mindful. How to recognize that this is, that we all, humanity, we all experience pain. And then how to kind of treat yourself in a kind and caring way. So, it really is a great book. It’s pretty easy to read and not too technical or stuffy. So I love anything with a practical exercise and it’s just filled with those.

Haley - Same. I totally love the practical, so I often, in the Healing Series, I’m like, okay, you have to tell us something helpful, that we can do ourselves. So I love that little, I keep wanting to say meditation. It was kind of like a meditation.

Kristin - Yeah.

Haley - Yeah, that you shared with us, so thank you. Okay, how can we connect with you online, Kristin?

Kristin - I have a website, professional website. It’s tradewindscounseling.com. and then on Facebook I’m just Kristin Jones, my personal Facebook, but I love to connect with adoptees. So that’s something really great for me. And I have an Instagram that’s Adoptees Connect Salt Lake City, actually the handle is @adopteesconnectslc, and anyone’s welcome to follow that. It’s specific to our Adoptees Connect group for Salt Lake, but I post on there about adoption.

Haley - Fantastic. I love Adoptees Connect, of course.

Kristin - Yes.

Haley - Perfect, thank you so much. Thanks for sharing with us today and I’m just so grateful for you, for your wisdom in this area. I think it’ll be really helpful for a lot of us.

(upbeat music)

Haley - I wanna say a huge thank you to my monthly supporters without which I wouldn’t be able to do this podcast every single week. So thank you, thank you, thank you. If you want to join them and say, with your dollars that this show is important and you’d like it to keep going and you want it to reach other adoptees around the world and help support them and grow our community, you can go to adopteeson.com/partner to find out how you can sign up to support the show, and some of the fun bonuses that you get for signing up. There is a secret podcast feed just for you, Adoptees Off Script. And there’s another level where we have a secret Facebook group for supporters of the show, and that group is pretty awesome too. So, I’d love to have you as a supporter, thanks so much for listening. Let’s talk again, next Friday.

(exit music)

108 [Special] Live Recordings from the American Adoption Congress Conference

Transcript

Full show notes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/108

Episode Transcription by Fayelle Ewuakye. Find her on Twitter at @FayelleEwuakye

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This show is listener supported. You can join us and help our show grow to support more adoptees, by going to AdopteesOn.com/partner.

(intro music)

Haley - You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. This is episode 108, live special recordings from the American Adoption Congress Conference. I’m your host Haley Radke. Today’s episode is just as the title suggests to you. We are doing a recap of the AAC conference that happened the first week of April 2019, in Washington D.C. which had amazing weather, beautiful cherry blossoms, and my husband and I were able to be in the city for one full week. It was amazing, I had so much fun exploring the city and checking out museums and eating really delicious food, and meeting incredible people at the conference. And so today we are gonna do a bunch of different things. And I’m gonna kinda take you through the conference with me. And I’m gonna introduce you to some people, you’re gonna hear some familiar voices, I’m gonna share a clip of my keynote speech, we are gonna talk about the highs and the lows, and I think it’ll give you a really good picture of what any conference like this could be like for you. If this is something that maybe you really wanna connect in person with other adopted people. Would this be a good fit for you? Maybe you are an adoption professional and you’re like, I don’t know, I really wanna listen to adoptee voices but is an event like this for me? Maybe you’re an adoptive parent and you’re kinda like, oh my gosh, I get a lot of adoptee voices on Haley’s show, is this really something that I would want to attend? Maybe you’re a first parent and you wanna start doing some legislative work and you don’t really know how to start. There’s something for everybody at an event like this. It was a really, really, there was a jammed packed schedule. So many different sessions and I think you’re gonna get a good picture of that as I talk to different attendees and presenters. And so let’s get to it. Okay, these first couple on the spot interviews, one is a familiar voice to you, which we’re gonna start with first. And these ladies are both adopted people, both presented and we talk just a little bit about their experience at the conference, what they were sharing and why they think you should attend an event like this.

(upbeat music)

Janet – I’m Janet Nordine, a Marriage and Family therapist from Las Vegas, Nevada.

Haley – And why did you come to this conference?

Janet – I wanted to come and present on disenfranchised grief because I think it’s something that in adoption land, we don’t normally talk about. We all feel it and we all experience it or we don’t know how to name it, so I wanted to come and share my thoughts and experiences with that topic.

Haley – And you’re presenting today, so you haven’t –

Janet – Yes.

Haley – Okay now.

Janet – In an hour.

Haley – You’ve been on this show before so you told us that you’re also a play therapist. So what did you bring along?

Janet – I brought bubbles, I brought toys --

Haley – Which you blew in my face.

Janet – I did! And you popped with both your fingers that you brought with you. I brought some fidgets to put on the chairs for the attendees of my class so in case feelings get brought up, they can do something with their hands and fidget around a little bit.

Haley – Okay, I love that. Okay, cool. So what is the fidget that, like give me an example, like fidget spinners?

Janet – I have some squishy balls, there’s some things that you can manipulate with your hands, there’s some clicky buttons.

Haley – I could have used that in some of the sessions already.

Janet – I can get them out for you if you wanna play with them.

Haley – Okay, cool. So what are your impressions of the conference? You’ve been, gone to different sessions and keynotes.

Janet – You know overall I’ve been really impressed with the conference. The workshops I’ve attended have been applicable to my personal life and my professional life which is what I would hope a conference would do for me as an adoptee and as a therapist. I’ve learned some new techniques, I’ve learned some new statistics, I’ve learned about adoptees that struggle. You know, and the serial killer.

Haley – Oh my gosh.

Janet – That was the best, I had no idea.

Haley – So interesting.

Janet – So now I want to research more about that and learn some more.

Haley – Okay, that was Dr. Tracy Carlis, her session. Look her up, she’s really interesting.

Janet – So overall it’s been really great, the food has been good. The location has been great, it’s been fun to be in D.C.

Haley – Yeah, so we went out to dinner last night with some friends and that was just like, so fun. So it was 5 adoptees all at the table, and we did not stop talking.

Janet – We didn’t, it was awesome. We didn’t have to explain anything to each other, we just could say what you’re thinking and feeling, experiencing and nobody had to ask questions, it’s awesome.

Haley - And I love that we, we ran the gamut of topics. And I won't break confidentiality around the dinner table.

Janet – What happens at the table stays at the table.

Haley – That’s right, yeah. But like we were laughing together, making fun of each other, telling stories where we almost cried, it was the whole thing. So special. What would you say to someone who has not been to a conference?

Janet – I would say, give the American Adoption Congress Conference a chance. I've really been impressed with what I’ve learned here, the calibre of speakers, the quality of what they had to bring. Next year, they’ve already announced it’ll be in San Diego, so I’m really excited it will be on my coast and I can drive there. So yeah, just come, and enjoy.

Haley – Okay.

Liz – I’m Liz DeBetta and I’m from New York City and I live in Salt Lake City now.

Haley – Okay, and what do you do there?

Liz – Teach English at a University.

Haley - And so what brought you to the conference?

Liz - So I’m an adoptee and I was really interested in connecting with other adoptees and people working in adoption and other members of the constellation. And also sharing some of my own work that I’m doing with regard to helping adoptees heal from some of the trauma.

Haley - So what did you, you presented at a session. What did you present on?

Liz - So my session was called Expressing the Primal Wound, Poetry as Healer. And so I talk a little bit about the research that’s available, about how expressive writing and poetry in particular can be a way of restructuring different emotions and giving them a place to live outside of our bodies. And through my own story, which is that I started writing poetry when I was 14, because I was in a lot of pain, and a teacher recommended that I think about writing poetry. Which I thought was dumb at the time, but then actually started writing and it became a way for me to articulate things that I didn’t have a way to say otherwise. Um, and so I’ve written poetry for many, many years. And if I go back to all those early poems, I can see very clearly all the themes of feeling lost, and alone and confused and like something is missing. And so, what I like to tell people now, is that I was writing my future. ‘Cause now that’s become a big part of my work. I do a lot of research on adoption and writing about adoption in order to help myself heal but also to help other people heal.

Haley - I totally wanna talk to you more about that, we’ll have to do another show. Can you tell me, of the sessions you went to, I know I saw you around, you were going to lots of things, was there anything really memorable or really valuable that you’re gonna take home with you?

Liz - I think, I’m gonna sort of defer to my session that I presented this morning, just because at the end of it, we did, the group did some writing, and I asked people in the room to write. And then to share their writing and it was, it was really powerful for me because we had adoptees in the room, we had adoptive parents and we had first parents. And so we got to hear these really incredibly powerful poems from all these different perspectives, that helped some of us who are adoptees, realize how much love adoptive parents have. And that sometimes we don’t accept it. And that, for some of, a couple of us, we had a moment of like, oh it’s okay to accept that much love, right? And then we, so just hearing these different perspectives was just really profoundly moving for me.

Haley - Right. And I know you had a special moment last night, what was that?

Liz - So, last night I got to meet my sister for the first time. We have the same mom. And we’re only a year apart in age and she’s only, I’ve only met my birth mother. So she’s only the second biological relative that I’ve met. And it was, I think I’m still processing it, I don’t, I think… we spent like 4 hours at dinner and we have, we have some very similar personalities. We like the same food, we even ordered the same meal.

Haley - Love that. Love the synchronicity things. That’s so special. Okay, last question. For another adoptive person like yourself who hasn’t been to a conference like this before, what would you say?

Liz - I would say do it. Find a way to connect with the community, with other people who might have something to teach you, you know? I know I’ve learned a lot from so many people this week and just listening to stories. And I think that other adoptees could really benefit from being in a space where there’s so much openness and generosity of spirit and people willing to share their experiences as a way of transmitting truth and knowledge about the realities of what we all live with on a daily basis.

Haley - Right, thank you so much.

Liz - Thank you!

Haley – The conference began with a keynote speech from Sharon Kaplan Roszia. And she gave us a tour of the history of the American Adoption Congress and she took us through the past, present and future, looking at the AAC and adoption and why the AAC was formed in the first place. And the big part of that is, opening up unrestricted access to adopted people’s original birth certificates and adoption files. There was a big theme throughout the conference at many different sessions of how to do that legislative work. I was able to go to a session by Erica Curry Van Ee and Melissa Nicholson, both of whom who have been on the show before, and they shared some of their work, what they’re doing in Michigan and it was a really, really fun session. There was lots of brainstorming about why the adoptee voice has been silent for so long, and what we can do to change that. So I’m really looking forward, Erica promised me, that she will be compiling some of those responses and sharing it in some fashion in the future. So when that comes out, I will let you know. But right now we’re gonna hear from a couple of attendees and presenters that were really there to focus on the legislative tracks presented at the AAC. This first clip is from the keynote and Q&A given by New York Assemblyman, Robert C. Carroll.

Robert – People still deserve to know where they came from. And it doesn’t mean that you know, there are gonna be big family reunions, doesn’t that mean that it’s gonna mean that people are gonna have relationships or, it’s gonna fix you know, old problems. It just, you know, I’m a lawyer. The law’s supposed to be fair.

(upbeat music)

Shawna - My name is Shawna Hodgson, I’m from Houston Texas.

Haley - And what brought you to the conference?

Shawna - Well, friendship and community, people I work with year round. I get to see them once or twice a year, so that’s a huge motivator for me.

Haley - And are you an adopted person?

Shawna - I’m an adopted person, yep.

Haley - So did you go to any of the sessions this weekend? Did you enjoy it?

Shawna - I did! I did. Yours, I did. I presented with Tim Monti-Wohlpart on legislation, we are from York and Texas. Gregory Luce, Clair McGettrick was awesome.

Haley - So you work to move legislation forward for OBCs.

Shawna - I do.

Haley - So where you able to connect with a lot of people who are doing like-minded things?

Shawna - A few. Yeah, a few.

Haley - Did you learn anything from Claire’s session like what they’ve done in Ireland, and your work here?

Shawna - Absolutely.

Haley - Like what?

Shawna - Just the way that they focus on the systematic discrimination against adoptees. Just the way, even just in the language that they use. Their presentation and how they kind of encapsulate that discrimination within the system, it really spoke to me.

Haley - The other thing she said that I thought was fascinating was, taking out the personal psychological impact from our arguments.

Shawna - Absolutely, thanks for bringing that up.

Haley - Do you have any thoughts on that?

Shawna - No, I totally agree. I don’t think she said that do diminish the, what we experience regarding trauma or anything like that about our adoption. But I do agree with her, that needs to be separate when we present the issue of human and civil rights violations.

Haley - Well how she set it up, was right, we say those things, they’re like oh, they’re broken people, there’s something wrong with you, we don’t wanna listen to you.

Shawna - Right, we’re pathologized.

Haley - Yeah. Okay.

Shawna - I agree.

Haley – What would you say to someone who hasn’t been to a conference like this before? What would you say, would you encourage them to come?

Shawna - Absolutely. Absolutely. The more of us here, the more of us together in one room, the more impact we’re gonna have in the community. And we have to know each other and meet each other and talk. For that to happen.

Any other thoughts?

Haley - Thanks for being here, no I’m just grateful that you’re here! Thank you.

(upbeat music)

Gregory – I’m Gregory Luce from Minneapolis, Minnesota.

Haley – And what brought you to the conference?

Gregory - The big thing is I’m a D.C. adoptee, was born and adopted here.

Haley - Oh!

Gregory - Also I was presenting on the history of adoptee rights.

Haley - And tell me about your Twitter handle.

Gregory - My Twitter handle, AdopteeLaw? Yeah.

Haley - What made you start that?

Gregory – It’s just part of when I started my law firm in the law center, I just wanted to, these days you have to have social media as a presence.

Haley - I think you’re really fun on Twitter.

Gregory - I like to have some fun, and you have to have fun on Twitter. I even tweeted out a photo today of the crowd that was at my presentation. It was just like a stock photo of some concert crowd.

Haley - Okay, I haven’t seen that I’m gonna have to go look at that.

Gregory - So I mean, I think you have to have humor in the work that we do. And I think we lack, there’s a lack of humor in all the stuff that we do, both in the advocacy work but also in the just the day to day work you have to do as an adoptee.

Haley - Yes.

Gregory - And so the more humor we can have, the better.

Haley - Yeah, totally.

Gregory - And I think people understand the issues much easier that way too. Typically.

Haley – I mean, interjecting about myself, that’s you know, one reason why I took a standup class.

Gregory - Right, exactly, I can totally see that.

Haley - Okay, back to conference stuff. Were there any sessions that you went to that you found really helpful?

Gregory - Yeah, Claire McGettrick’s session was, it kind of blew my mind. It made me think bigger on the issue as opposed to smaller. I mean, she, which, and I think she’s right to shift the focus from a psychopathological focus of who adoptees are and recontextualized it into social, sociological. How we’re categorized, and how because of that categorization, how we’re treated.

Haley - Right.

Gregory - Which I thought was phenomenal, especially in the world of, and she’s talking about with legislation. In that world of access to original birth certificates and adoption records.

Haley - How about just connecting with other people? How is that?

Gregory - Well that’s really the strength, I mean that’s why ultimately you come, because you’re hanging out in the lobby or you're going, taking a walk, and you’re meeting people that you typically only interact with on Facebook messenger or Twitter. And you get to see their faces and maybe even people that you’ve disagreed with pretty strongly in the past, but you get to see more context to their experience, who they are and where they’re coming from. And you go back with that, in trying to figure out how do we find common ground?

Haley – I love just having conversation with another adoptee I’ve never met and you just instantly go to the deeper stuff. That’s what I’ve felt.

Gregory - True, very true. To the point sometimes that you need to walk away, not walk away from that conversation, but okay, let’s talk about like, how the NCAA tournament or—

Haley – Are we gonna cry in front of each other? Is that like, too soon?

Gregory - Yeah, but no, I agree. But it is, it’s something that you’re, I think with any group that comes together that have a commonality that’s very true. You’re comfortable talking about things that you find aggravating to talk to people about who don’t understand. And I had that conversation with my sister-in-law and brother-in-law here who live in Maryland. And it was a very different conversation about adoptee rights than when they could sit down with someone here. They just didn't fully understand it and were asking some of the same questions that you get so tired of hearing. And tired of answering.

Haley - What would you say that’s never been to an event like this?

Gregory – I’d give it a chance, come. Because as with all conferences, especially one that’s around and has a real good focus on what I’m interested in which is adoptee rights, but there are other focuses as well. You’re gonna meet people that are gonna make you, especially my case, think bigger and think outside of what you’ve been thinking in the past. You always get something out of it. And it’s either, and it’s always typically in one or two presentations, not all of them are stellar, they never are.

Haley - Ouch!

Gregory - No, but that’s true! Some are, I mean that’s just the way it goes, some are clunkers and some are, and it’s just, it may not even be how the presentation, it may just not resonate with you.

Haley - Yeah.

Gregory - But those that do, you take those away.

Haley - There are some lines and things that I’ll probably remember forever, because it had such impact.

Gregory - Exactly.

Haley - Thanks so much!

Gregory – Thank you!

(upbeat music)

Claire – My name is Claire McGettrick and I am a PhD scholar at the school of sociology in University College Dublin. And I am also a cofounder of Adoptions Rights Alliance.

Haley – And what brought you to the conference?

Claire - So I wanted to present a paper on the preliminary research findings and also to kind of introduce my research to the American adoption world. To exchange ideas with adoption academics and adoption activists here and see what we can learn from each other.

Haley - And how has your experience been?

Claire - It’s been fantastic, it’s been really interesting to have a meeting of so many different minds and different perspectives and yes, I’ve come away with a lot of food for thought.

Haley - Yeah. Well I was in your session, it was excellent. And no joke, I’ve talked to a few adoptees who said that yours was your favorite.

Claire - Oh thank you.

Haley - And they learned a lot from you. And so I would echo that. It was so interesting and one of the funniest things you presented, I thought, was how they advertise DNA testing as Find Your Criminal Ancestry. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Claire - Yes, so one of the points that I make is the, you know, in sort of Ancestry, Family tree DNA, Find My Past, all of these genealogical, some of the DNA-based sites, they advertise to find your ancestors. But I don’t know what it’s like in the US and Canada, but in Ireland and the UK, certainly, a big part of that is people are encouraged to find their criminal ancestors. And if you can find skeletons in the closet, it’s a really sort of, it’s considered a bonus, you know? You know, you find a criminal in your past. And I just think it’s extraordinary that you know, when that’s juxtaposed against adopted people, who simply want basic pieces of information about themselves. That, that is denied of them. So it’s, I think it’s an interesting juxtaposition we’ve got going on right now. It’s still happening and it’s very, it’s interesting to see those contradictions play out, certainly in Ireland and presumably here in the US.

Haley - Yeah, absolutely. I thought you framed it so well. And I don’t want to get into too much of your presentation, because I’d love to have you back to talk about it. One last thing, would you say to other adoptees, would you recommend coming to a conference like this, what’s been your experience that way?

Claire - I think that meeting others with different perspectives is always important. It’s you know, and I think it would be very difficult to come away from a situation like this not having fresh perspectives. So I would encourage anybody who is in the world of adoption to certainly come to conferences like this, around the world. And because we all have something to learn from each other. We’re all coming at it from our own angle and I think each of us has something to bring to the table.

Haley – At a conference like this, there are all kinds of reasons for people attending. There are adoption professionals coming who actually want to do adoption in an ethical manner. There are adoptive parents coming who really want to learn from adopted people and first parents what their experiences have been and how they can best raise their children who have now been adopted and what can they do to best support them. There are other professionals that work with adopted children or adopted adults or first parents. Or any member of the adoption constellation, and they want to get new techniques, they wanna know the latest in neuroscience, they want to be cutting edge of their practice so that they can help people the best way they can. So in addition to adopted people and first parents and legislative work, all kinds, all kinds of reasons for people to attend. So we’re gonna hear now from someone who is actually working in the adoption field, who has great concerns about the ethics of adoption that is practiced in her state of Florida. And we had some off the record conversations that were very illuminating to me. But I trust that Audra is really invested in knowing the other side of adoption and how she can help impact the industry to make it better and more ethical. And we’re also gonna hear from an adoptive parent who is super invested in hearing from adopted people. And you guys, he flew all the way from Israel to Washington D.C., to hear from adopted people. And it’s just amazing. So we’re gonna listen to them and their experience at the conference. And whether or not they think that you should attend.

Audra – My name’s Audra Coons and I’m from Tampa, Florida.

Haley – And what brought you to the conference?

Audra - I think there’s a few things that brought me here. One was to connect with professionals who are practicing ethical, are doing ethical practices and who are up to date with research and what we need to be telling the world about adoption.

Haley – ‘Cause you’re a social worker.

Audra - I am a social worker. And so that was a big part of it. The second part was definitely to hear adoptee voices. And I think that was very helpful in this conference to hear that voice and also from birth first mothers. And those were the two biggest reasons for attending the conference.

Haley - And you also presented a session.

Audra - Yes, so my colleague and I partnered in a session on how and when to talk to your child about adoption. And so a lot of our work is within preplanning, and education and support from the beginning before we’re deciding that that’s a choice and as we go through that process, really as a goal to promote healing and giving that reinformation, since with the history of adoption, we’ve seen that was not how things were going. And so we, in our presentation, we talked a lot about ways to talk about adoption from a developmental perspective. So from infancy, all the way up to adulthood.

Haley - And I know you attended a lot of sessions, I saw you around. Do you have any favorite things you learned or really great takeaways that you wanna share?

Audra - Yeah, for sure. I think some of the reunion topics were very, very valuable. But I think a combination of those real life stories with the scientific aspects, so there were definitely other conferences on trauma, or neuroscience or different things that I think it’s really important to have both of those.

Haley - Any other like, things that you’re like, we’re definitely going to incorporate this into our practice or we need to be thinking about this or?

Audra - Yeah, definitely, I think that you know, one of the reasons why we come to conferences is kind of rejuvenate, is to get our brains thinking and you know, new ideas and what are we missing? And so we’ve recognized and know that birth mother’s voice is not being heard enough. But as well as adoptees, but I think this conference really allowed us to say, you know, our support and education that we’re doing has to be child centered, completely around that. And while our work has been that, I don’t think it was presented in that way enough. And so really to come back to the adoptee because then we can help everyone and we center around that.

Haley - Okay, so talking to another professional like yourself who’s not attended an event like this before, what would you say?

Audra - I would definitely say, I think conferences are very valuable for a lot of the reasons that I just shared. It rejuvenates us, it motivates us, it helps us come up with new ideas. On the other hand, researching and looking at the conferences that you’re going to and making sure that that’s the audience and content that you’re looking for. Because you know, it’s a lot to come to a conference and be here for 3 days, so really to do the research on, and there’s so many conferences. Which is gonna be the most beneficial for me?

Haley - Great, thank you so much!

Audra - Thank you!

(upbeat music)

Benny – Okay, my name is Benny Saville, I’m from Israel, and I’m an adoptive parent.

Haley – And what brought you to the conference?

Benny - Well, in my private life, I’m the chairman of the organization that represents the adoptive community in Israel. Adoptive community I mean, birth parents, adoptees and adoptive parents. I think we’ve reached the stage that we have to reach out to them more things about adoption. And I’m very happy I came to the conference because I got a very broad variety of views from even from different countries.

Haley - So what were some of the sessions you went to or some of the memorable things that you’re gonna be taking back with you?

Benny - Well, I can’t pick out one. Take the last session that Sue gave.

Haley – Just to interject real quick, this Sue is Dr. Sue Green from Australia and I heard nothing but great things about her all weekend. People loved her session, learned a ton from her, and I hope to have her on the show to share some of her expertise with us in the near future.

Benny – Which was very exciting in the way Australia relates to adoption. And gave me a new perspective of a permanent family without adoption, or maybe without given a new birth certificate. And I said I think the meetings, I had a very, very long session with Sharon Kaplan Roszia, a 2 and a half hour talk with her which mind blowing.

Haley - She was the first keynote, yeah.

Benny - She was the first keynote.

Haley - Yeah, fascinating woman.

Benny - Lot of knowledge and a lot of experience and a very clear perspective of adoption. Even though she’s old school, very, very up to date.

Haley - So you must have lots of plans brewing in your head.

Benny I really have to digest everything I’ve got, I hope I’ve digested it before I come to San Diego.

Haley - Okay, so you’re planning?

Benny - I’m planning, talk to my wife about it.

Haley - I mean, that’s quite the trip. So talk another adoptive parent who hasn’t come to an event like this, why is it so important?

Benny – First of all we’ve got to understand our kids. When we adopt kids, and I’ve got 6 kids, 4 biological, and 2 biological in another way, that we’ve adopted. All kids are biological. But parenting an adopted child is different. And we’ve got to realize and know, and understand better how our kids and what they’re going through, what they might go through. And first it makes us better parents. And the other thing is I want to make the world better so I want to try and change things in Israel, I want to change the way we treat adoption, the way we treat adoptees, the way we treat birth parents. And these are things we’re doing. And we just have to get better practices.

Haley – Thank you, anything else that you wanna say about the conference or your trip here? How’s Washington, how’s Washington, D.C.

Benny - Washington this time of the year is fabulous.

Haley - April, and the cherry blossoms are out, did you get to go outside?

Benny - Yes, I had to take that. Wednesday I went out, but otherwise I was here, attended every session I could.

Haley - Oh my goodness, yeah, there’s so much. Great, thank you so much for sharing.

Benny - Thank you.

Haley – So hey. I’m in my hotel room and it is the night before my keynote speech. And my husband Nick is out at a hockey game because we’re Canadian and apparently that’s what we do. So he, let me think, he’s gone to a Capitals and a Montreal Canadians game. And that, he popped back in because we had the meetup this afternoon. And I wish I had counted. There was, I mean at least 20 people. I’ll have to go back and look at the pictures. And count, but it was a really good turnout. Of course there was some people from the conference that came down, but also a bunch of local D.C. adoptees came. Which was such a gift to be able to meet them in person, several of whom have been on the show and a couple of Adoptees Connect leaders. It was just so special. You know, I met several Patreon supporters, so thank you again for those of you who donate through Patreon. I was trying to tell each person, thank you. So if I forgot that, thank you. But I literally couldn’t do the show without supporters like that, to pay my editor. So I just had this overwhelming sense of gratitude and okay. I’m hesitating to share this but I’m going to. ‘Cause it sounds like a little bit self-involved. But it was so surreal. Because people lined up to like, talk to me. Which was so funny. It only happened like a few people, it wasn’t like a huge lineup or anything. But we, I tried to take pictures with everyone, we took a big group picture. And I tried to make sure to talk with each person. It was just so cool. I mean, there’s nothing like being with other adoptees in person. But like to have them be in person, listeners of the show, it’s just so special. And over and over and over people say, you know, the show changed my life, I’m so glad to know I’m not alone. And that’s just the biggest praise I could get. One of the reasons I started this show was because I felt so alone. And so to be able to share these stories with you, and let you know that you are certainly not the only one experiencing whatever adoptee thing you have going on, hopefully we’ve talked about it on this show or we’ll get to it soon. And you will feel heard and seen. So yeah, I’m, it’s like quarter after 9 and I’m gonna try and go to sleep. I feel like I might not sleep well ‘cause I’m nervous and excited about tomorrow. And I’m just even more fired up about the message I’m gonna bring because I’m talking about Our Voices Are the Tipping Point. And I mean, how much do we need to hear from adoptees? More than ever. It’s just critical. And so, I wonder, if people will come away tomorrow feeling like I pushed their buttons or made them angry a little. Because we need to be talking about it and there’s no room now to be complacent. And I wrote a couple of really strong calls to action and I’m hopeful it will be motivating. And not condemning. Okay, I better get to sleep but I thought I would just record real quick to let you know what I’m thinking the night before. Oh, I can’t believe it’s here.

Haley - Okay, that was fun, right? Okay, here it is. Here is a few minutes from my keynote.

Haley - Every time you let an opportunity go by, where you could have shifted the focus from “oh my gosh, adoption is the best” to “actually, it’s kind of complicated, it’s a little bit nuanced. I can tell you a little bit of my story if you’d like.” Every time you let an opportunity go by, it’s a real shame. I have those opportunities daily. I mean, based on the people in this room, I imagine you have them daily also. But minimum once a week. But you are complicit if you come from a position of power and knowledge and you choose silence. I’m asking you to stop being complicit in allowing the happy adoption narrative to continue. And I’m going to say that again. You are complicit if you come from a position of power and knowledge and you choose silence. Everyone in this room is coming from a position of knowledge because you have been in sessions all week and weekend about the whole truth about adoption. So you know, you know the stats, you have seen the impact adoption has on adoptees’ lives. So you have no excuse. When you stay silent, you are complicit in allowing the fairytale, happy clappy, story of adoption to continue.

(audience clapping)

It’s going to come at a cost. I’m not saying that you’re not going to get pushback, because that’s not true. That is disingenuous, it will come at a cost. You are going to get your feelings hurt. You are going to feel like you’re talking to a brick wall sometimes. I’m gonna guarantee right now, you’re gonna get mansplained. But guess what, it’s your job now. It’s been my job, it’s gonna continue to be my job, but it’s your job now too. Our job is to change the narrative. And if we in this room, watching at home, listening on an Mp3 later, if we aren’t brave enough to talk about the whole truth of adoption, who is? Stop pretending like everything is awesome. So whether you have adopted a kid, whether you have birthed a kid who is now adopted, whether you are the adopted person, whether you are the therapist that works with adopted kids or adoptive families or both, it’s your job now, it’s your job to tell the whole truth about adoption. And we cannot take that lightly. Every day there are people that go to meet with legislators, in the U.S, in Canada, worldwide. And they don’t understand. Why would we want adoptions records open? What’s the big deal? Why do adoptees want access to their original birth certificates and medical records? And we get denied constantly? What’s the big deal? Closed adoption was promised. We need to know where we came from. It’s a human right to know who your parents are. It’s imperative that people understand that. Adoptees are getting deported because their parents didn’t apply for citizenship. Adoptees are struggling with chronic illness. Because they don’t have their medical records. We are addicted to food, alcohol, drugs to numb our pain. Adoptees are killing themselves because we don’t know who we are. So it’s your job now to tell the whole truth about adoption ‘cause we’re dying.

(upbeat music)

The last thing I did at the conference was a session with Caitriona Palmer who is just such a dear friend and I asked her to do it as a favor to me. And we were presenting on secondary rejection. Because her and I both have experienced that from our first mothers. So our structure of our presentation was, we shared our personal experience of reunion and secondary rejection. We looked back and talked about what we could have done differently and last we wrapped up with things we’ve done to help us cope with this obviously very painful loss.

Now I’m not going to dwell on this because as I told several people. Actually what happened in this session was, one of the most challenging and painful moments of my entire life. And a first mother who I was already acquainted with, interrupted our session and gave a very difficult and personal attack on both Caitriona and I, more than once during the presentation. And then at the end during the Q & A. Why I wanted to bring that to you, was after my keynote of challenging people to tell the whole truth about adoption, knowing that we likely will get pushback, how do we address this with our friends and family? And really change the narrative at a very grassroots level with our personal connections in person? Not online. How do we do that? How do we change the narrative, how do we build our community and skills and abilities to be able to do that? Looking back on what happened on our session, and how that’s not the way to change someone’s perspective. Because of the fact that this incident happened within the community who are already working to try and change the dominant adoption narrative to one of truth and transparency and highlighting the challenges, it was on a whole other level. And was discussing this with my best friend Jacqueline, and she sent me an Instagram post right away. She’s like, you have to read this because it so applies in this situation. So my best friend is a registered dietician. And she has seen, as you can imagine, there are many debates back and forth in that community on what’s the proper way to eat and what’s healthiest, et cetera. And this post is on Andrea Hardy’sInstagram and it’s a quote from Susan Watson. “Call people in instead of calling them out.” I’m gonna repeat that for you. “Call people in, instead of calling them out.” In the adoption community online, can you tell me if we are united? We as adoptees are not united, first parents are not united, adoptive parents are not united, people that are in the constellation that represent more than one member of the constellation are not united. How do we unify and build the bridges and have productive conversations and move things forward when we are eating each other alive? Online, in person, with competing events? How do we build bridges and move the work that is critical of sharing the whole truth about adoption? How do we do that? When all we’re doing is calling people out and attacking, instead of listening and sharing with the intent of also listening and learning from the other party? How do we do that? I’m not coming to you with this because I have a solution, I wanna challenge you to bring a solution. And to be a person of such high quality and integrity in the way you interact online and in person that people will want to listen to you and honor your words and learn from you. To learn the truth about your story, and how adoption has impacted you. I wanna challenge you to be that person. To call people in, instead of calling them out. Because as much time as we can spend in sessions working on legislative strategy, and learning from other countries who’ve done it before, who are doing it now, who have thought of more creative ideas and have bigger leverage and expertise than we do yet. If we are not the people of integrity in the way we carry ourselves and speak about ourselves and to other people, guess what we do? This. We hurt people, we burn bridges, and nothing gets done. And we go in circles. I’m asking you to choose to be the person that can forgive and move forward and help build the bridges. So together, we can move forward on adoptee rights and activism, sharing the adoptee voice, challenging the dominant cultural narratives, opening up records for birth certificates, for the human right and dignity that we deserve to have answers about where we came from and our medical history. I need you. I need you to step forward and be one of those people that doesn’t call people out but instead we call people in. Be mindful about how you are listening to others when you disagree. And vice versa. We need to spend more time listening and learning from each other and less time attacking. I almost walked away. I almost walked away because it was so personal and painful to hear criticisms of the same actions I beat myself up for regularly. That I almost walked away and thought, I’m never doing this again. But I’m not gonna let something like that break me and I’m hoping that if you’ve had something similar happen to you, that you will take this as an invitation to come back, come back, and help me build the bridges going forward, we’re in this together. Let’s listen and learn from each other in a productive way. We can do this, I know we can. And Adoptees On will continue to be a safe space for challenging topics, for conversations that haven’t happened before publicly, and will continue to build the bridges going forward. I’m asking you to join me in that. Tell the whole truth about adoption. We need you to. I need you to. And I need you to be mindful of how you do it. Thanks so much for listening, let’s talk again next Friday.

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