232 [Healing Series] Identity

Transcript

Full show notes: http://www.adopteeson.com/listen/232


Haley: This podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing stated on it either by its hosts or any guests, is to be construed as psychological, medical, or legal advice.

You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. I'm Haley Radke. This is a special episode in our healing. Where I interview therapists who are also adoptees themselves and they know from personal experience what it feels like to be an adoptee. Before we get started, I wanted to personally invite you to join our Patreon adoptee community today over on AdopteesOn.com/community, which helps support you and also the show to support more adoptees around the world.

On today's episode, we are talking about identity development as adults. Let's listen in. I'm so pleased to welcome back to Adoptee on Marta Sierra. Hi Marta.

Marta Sierra: Hi Haley.

Haley: I just told you I listened to some of your past episodes last night. And I can't believe how impactful they have been for the community and still to this day have been for me.

So we're gonna link to Marta's past appearances on the show so you can go back and listen. Um, but especially we were talking about estrangement and loyalty as a trauma response. And you unlocked something for folks I think, has been bottled up for so many of us for years. So I'll just express my appreciation from the community to you for that.

But I wanna start where we kind of left off and share a little bit of your story since then.

Marta Sierra: Sure. Thank you so much for that feedback, Haley. It's, you know, it's truly an honor and I'm very public about so many parts of my story because I really believe in representation, which we'll probably keep talking about in this episode.

But I also, yeah, you've heard me talk about it a bunch, like what community is the medicine? I just feel so strongly about that, and I think that your show and other platforms are community activism and I just feel really passionately. This work. So yeah, we last talked about estrangement and, and that was interesting for me to look back to and, and revisit some of our past episodes because that was such a beginning for me, is what I was thinking about in reflecting on us talking about identity more today and coming back to.

Identity development as an adult adoptee or identity development over long term reunion. And for me, estrangement really was such a beginning to be myself, find myself, be myself, stand in myself. We were talking about our purpose being to, you know, on this earth to give and receive love. You and I, last time we talked, Haley and, and you said, you finished my sentence.

There was this moment and you, I said something about giving and receiving love, and you said as who we really are. And yeah. Turns out what I learned post estrangement is who I am is gay and polyamorous . Which...

Haley: Is that a surprise to you?

Marta Sierra: ...were some big discoveries. Uh, it sort of, and sort of not and, and my journey with, with my queerness and my journey with polyamory have been, you know, didn't just start then, but it was, you know, when I look back now, it really was the beginning of, I don't, I'm not beholden to anyone except myself, and I can really be free to explore myself and express myself without fear. And that was just brand new.

Haley: Isn't that fascinating? I think that is. Of the biggest takeaways from our last conversation, I shouldn't even say that cuz there's so many.

But coming into ourselves and having our own identity, like I've had so many conversations over the last decade with friends being like, oh yeah, I finally figured out what I like, in terms of perfume or a preference? Yes, just, just like, just preferences. Where, I don't know. I see my kids and being like, oh, I really love this, or I really love that.

And I think, I think, did I even have the option to really explore preferences when I was little? I don't know.

Marta Sierra: Right. Did I have enough of a context on myself to even choose those choices from an authentic place?

Haley: Yes. Or are you choosing. Because this is the family environment you are in. This is what they like. This is what was modeled. This is what's acceptable. This is what's not acceptable and not safe. And so are you just fitting into this, like trying to pour yourself into a mold that is not for you?

Marta Sierra: Right. The need for belonging supersedes the need for authenticity. So if, if I need to be an authentic to belong, that's gonna trump who I am really every time.

Haley: That's wild. Like That's so wild. Okay, so identity development in terms of becoming our own authentic selves, like who we really are, is that, can you talk a little more about that? What do you see as identity development for adult adoptees?

Marta Sierra: You know, I see memes all the time, I feel like on, on Instagram about traumatized people in general, but how, you know, if you feel like you're behind your peers on whatever life step, right? Whether that's career or owning a home or having children, That some of that I is about our delayed development. When you are a person who has experienced trauma, we do get stalled out in different places and that looks different for every individual of course.

But there is this very real delayed development because if you spend most of your childhood disassociated, there's just all of this lost time. Right? Like you're saying as a kid, like when we were supposed to, Like, oh, do I like purple or do I like pink? Or, which sport do I like to play? We were like, how do I survive? How do I survive? How do I survive like that?

If that's what your nervous system is running on, you don't have the space for that exploration. And you know, I even, I give a disclaimer to new clients, especially in groups, but even individuals, um, especially if someone comes in, you know, one toe out of the fog.

I know we're like retiring that phrase soon as a community, but I'm just gonna keep using it today for lack of a replacement. But, you know, I, I try to be as transparent as possible and, and one of those disclaimers is, You may want to make a lot of changes in your life as you move into this work. And I don't want that to be jarring.

You know, a lot of people moving through their trauma work, change careers, move to another country, get married, end of marriage. You know, there's all of these big shifts as we realize like, oh, I'm not that person at all that I thought I was. And now that I'm finding myself, I gotta make some changes to align my insides with my oustides.

Haley: So you are just telling clients up front, this is a disclaimer, like if we address these things, you may be upending like, wow. Yes. I never thought of that before, Marta. Like sincerely. I guess I've seen that too. I've seen so many people come into our community and change their name. Move across the country, change career, just as you said, end of marriage.

I can, I mean, I know one person that does all of those things, um. Wow. Okay. So that's identity.

Marta Sierra: You know, and even thinking about us talking today is I sometimes it's hard for me to go back and listen to the first recordings that we did, Haley, because it's my dead name. My dead name is on those interviews.

And, and even that as what, but I, I think about, I feel like my voice is even different then. Like, there's just been so many shifts in adulthood for me and so many transformations, and I think that's what, yeah, when, again, when our system's driven by fear. And when, when losing anybody or anything is the most important thing. I don't have space to be myself in that. Right.

Haley: I, I was kind of talking about this with a friend this morning and what I mentioned was when we're in reunion, if we're, you know, fortunate enough to have that with our genetic family, can we be ourselves, and if we even know who we are, but at this point, I think I feel like I know who I am and am I showing up there as myself, because if I'm rejected, then they're really rejecting the real me.

Marta Sierra: Right.

Haley: Versus if I'm there and I'm trying to still Mm. Shape shift a little. Yes.

Marta Sierra: The chameleon thing.

Haley: Then if I'm rejected, they're just rejecting the, you know, costume I put.

Marta Sierra: So right. That really highlights how we have to have done enough healing where the other people leaving and rejecting us doesn't cause chaos. Where if I'm fiercely choosing myself, I no longer need that outside of me. I mean, I need some people to choose me. Right. We need, we need people, but I don't need, it's not as, it's not all as serious as I had previously thought. It's okay. That's, we are supposed to be in a place where people can move in and out of our lives without us, you know, teetering on the edge of sanity, ideally.

Haley: Right? I mean, we're laughing, but also for real. Right?

Marta Sierra: For real,

Haley: For real.

Marta Sierra: Totally for real.

Haley: Okay. So since you became estranged from your adopters and you have been doing identity, you know, exploration and finding these things out about yourself, Like, oh, I'm queer. Oh, I, I want to live a polyamorous lifestyle. How has that impacted you and the people around you? Because I know you've done a lot of internal work, you're an IFS therapist, so it's like, uh, required, I guess, um. But can are, are you comfortable sharing a little bit about that?

Marta Sierra: Yes, absolutely. I. And I, I, I can mention it again at the end too, but I did do an episode on my queerness and polyamory specifically, so I will talk about that at the end if your listeners wanna hear a ton more about those things.

Again, all of that wasn't, wasn't brand new, but I really did just feel this new level of freedom to pursue, yeah, the level of, of freedom I wanted and freedom of choices of partnerships and, partners and to explore my queerness. I mean, as a straight presenting pansexual woman that had been with a man, you know, in this really long relationship, and the only way for me, without ending that relationship that I did not want to end at all to explore my queerness is, is to be a non monogamous. And that was everything, like starting to lean into that and, falling in love with a, a woman for the first time. You know, I had been with women very casually throughout my adulthood, never had the permission to really date a woman to fall in love with a woman.

And for me as an adoptee, there felt something really powerful for me in a relationship with another woman that I had not experienced in my other relationship. Something particularly healing, something particularly sacred and, it just, uh, I don't, I don't, still don't have words for like, the amount of healing that I experienced in that relationship.

Haley: Can I just press in on something? Cuz I, I think I keep saying, oh, this is new for you, but you're like, no, no, I, I knew something. Can you, can you say that, like, looking back, what did you know that you're only noticing you know now? Or I don't know. Can you talk about that?

Marta Sierra: Yeah, I, I identified as bisexual from like as early as my teen years, I would say, but I never gave myself permission to really claim that or to pursue women romantically, and it was just something I didn't feel allowed to do.

I don't know if I can say it any other way. And then also this piece, Being in a straight presenting relationship, um, being a straight presenting them, and that I just didn't think that I was ever gonna get to have that and, or, or even that I was allowed to want it. Definitely felt like I wasn't even allowed to want it.

Haley: Because if you actually shared that identity out loud with the people that were in your life, that would not have been safe for you?

Marta Sierra: Yeah, just, uh, I think just as adoptees, I feel like we take this really quiet vow so young to like not want or need anything. And so this is about like right, my hunger for healing, my hunger for connection, my hunger for joy and pleasure, and to be brought alive from this like ghost existence that I was living and that hunger feels, can feel really selfish, indulgent, elicit whatever words you wanna put to it that, that shame our very human wants and needs.

Haley: I dunno how you do that. You say so many, like one line, one off things. This is, that's where people are gonna pause. We take this quiet vow like, yeah.

Marta Sierra: You know, ideally I would've got to experiment when I was younger and date girls and date boys and like see how I thought all felt, but I didn't know enough about myself.

So, you know, I see this, we talked a little bit about this before we started recording. I see this in, in so many adult adoptees that are learning really big things about themselves in their thirties, in their forties, in their fifties, and then trying to figure out how to course correct big decisions they've made in their lives to realign around the truth that they're discovering about themselves.

Haley: I think you said to me, we think we know who we are. . . Yeah. But then we don't really, uh, okay. So, so to me, I'm hearing those things and even though I've been sort of in the midst of this for the last 10 years or maybe a little more, Figuring out who I am. It can sound really scary. Like yes, you're talking about like, well, if we look at this and you explore, like you might decide you're not gonna be married anymore, you might decide you're gonna change out, like that's big stuff and that's world shifting stuff, so that sounds terrifying.

Marta Sierra: Yes. Yeah, it's really scary. And all of healing though requires a risk. Right. You're taking a risk that if you turn towards something really painful, maybe something good will be on the other side, and that's the discovery. I think for me post estrangement is that every risk I take there is something powerful on the other side.

You know, something that queer adoptees have in Reunion have to sit with, right? Is whether or not to come out to their birth families and international transracial adoptees. There's added scary cultural elements to that sometimes. Sometimes we're from birth countries where homosexuality is illegal, like really intense things to be up against.

Really terrifying as you're saying, right? To think about risking this connection that is essential and fragile and can feel fragile. And so I hadn't, I hadn't come out to my mom because it didn't feel that relevant when I was living in a monogamous partnership with a man. Why? Right. It didn't, I didn't feel like I was particularly hiding it, but I never really addressed it directly either.

But I, I hit this point where I was living poly amorously. I had a very serious girlfriend who I loved very deeply, and I was starting to think about bringing her down there at some point. And so, I realized step one before that is I have to come out to my mom. And that was really terrifying.

Haley: What, when what do you do? Like you're, you're like, am I gonna lose the relationship I worked so hard and we've worked so hard to build? Is this gonna cost me everything? Mm-hmm. . Yeah.

Marta Sierra: Yes, and I, you know, Columbia is a very patriarchal Catholic country, as I've talked about on here before. So it's, it's not really okay to be gay still culturally, and it's definitely not okay to break the rules around monogamy and structure like that.

So, you know, I knew that I'm, I'm presenting something that's outside of, of what she knows and her culture. So, yeah, it, and, and, and also, this is still in my, in my second language that I, I, I identify as functionally fluent right now. But it, it's clunky. It's not perfect. There's lots of things I still don't know.

So I actually practice in my, I do one-on-one Spanish tutoring, so I practiced for weeks about this. So we would mock do the conversation and I tried to prepare for questions that I thought she might have and. When, when I got down there, so this was last Christmas, we were walking maybe the second or third morning that I was there, and it, I, it felt like the moment it was calm, it was early morning, it was really beautiful where we were walking and I could feel that it was the time and it was like starting to like burn up the center of my chest and I was starting to shake and I, I just jumped right into kind of what I had prepared and....

The most shocking part was I had prepared how to explain polyamory in Spanish ad nauseum. And I said, do you know what that is? After I said, we have been practicing polyamory, of course she knows my partner. And uh, she said, yeah, I know what that is.

And I was like, oh, 30 minutes of material out the door. Okay, and, what she ended up asking me the most about was my queerness. When did I know and, and my history with that, which I had not prepared emotionally or linguistically to talk to her about at all. And so that was, you know, a big surprise. But she was, she was absolutely incredible. She. That's what she always says, which is lo que es mas importante que tollo que estas feliz, like the most important thing is that you're happy, and I know that's her value as a mom, but I still of course, feared that this would be the thing that was outside of the bounds of that because my experience of caregiver support is that it's so unstable and unsafe that I didn't trust that. But she has shown me over and over that her love is boundless and that I do not need to fear her.

And yet I am still so afraid because of my childhood that she'll hurt me in moments of vulnerability especially.

Haley: Mm. Thank you for sharing that like intimate story. I'm so thankful you got the response you did, and the other thing I know about you is if you hadn't got that response, you're still you and still confident in you and still like, I feel like I made all the right choices here.

You know? I'm assuming, did you prepare yourself for the other reaction?

Marta Sierra: I did, I did, and I, I forgot to say this part of my lead in before, before my disclosure and really what got me to the point also of deciding to come out to her was, I already hid who I am to gain entrance into one family system in this life, and I feel like it almost killed me, so I just can't do it that way Again, I can't hide just to belong to this family.

And so I led with that and, and that I was trusting her to not require that of me.

Haley: And she showed up for you?

Marta Sierra: She showed up.

Haley: We love her. Um, so I've been in Reunion for 11 years, I think at this point with my dad and my siblings and his wife. And I just recently came back from a family wedding and I didn't realize the, uh, fear I was going in with, because there's all these moments at weddings in particular, right? That you see who's in and who's not, right?

Like and, you know, let, let me just like, no fear anyone, like it's a happy ending for this. Like going in, are we gonna be in the family pictures? Is there gonna be one where you're like, okay, now you guys step out. So we just have the OGs, you know, like

Marta Sierra: mm-hmm.

Haley: That did not happen at a speech at one point, my brother said, my three sisters including me with no asterisk.

Right? All of those things that I think for them, didn't, they didn't even think twice about it.

Marta Sierra: Right.

Haley: But I came in with these fears of that. And then the other example I'm gonna give is more talking about how I think I really am authentically me when I'm there. Cuz at one point I, I was helping with a couple different things here and there. You know, food stuff and whatever. Um, my dad's wife, I call mom. At one point we were discussing something and then she said, I'm just gonna make an executive decision just like you do. You make a, you know, I was like, okay, I know I'm real here because I do that all the time, and that really is me.

Marta Sierra: Yes.

Haley: So, I don't know, there's just this, I feel like it's two parts of my story sharing with you this, it's like I still was afraid. I didn't even know I was afraid, but it came with relief after the pictures, I went back to the car with my kids, I teared up again. Right. And I cried and I was wearing sunglasses and I'm trying not to show my kids I'm crying cuz it was a happy, I was like, oh, okay.

Like it was happy. And then same with the reception. He's, you know, it was just an offhanded comment. It wasn't really even talking about us specifically, but it was just like, oh, like to be included is just really amazing and it's still like lots of people would just never think twice about that. Right. I dunno.

Marta Sierra: Mm-hmm.

Haley: That's the adoptee experience, right?

Marta Sierra: Well, they see you and they claimed you. In that simple way, I think that biological families do, because like you're saying, it's not, it's not out of the norm for them, but we are not expecting it.

Haley: Which is so sad. We're not expecting it, you know, but it's, it's true. That's how we grew up. Like if you felt unsafe and you know, I just wanna say there's a few times where you were like, um, mentioning these thoughts that were going through our heads as children. And for a lot of us that's unconscious. So I, I'm, I'm meant to kind of come back to that.

Those are unconscious thoughts that are just kind of circling around and we're acting as though those things are true cuz they are, am I safe here, do I belong here? All those things. But to have them below the surface and not visible to us now, hopefully they're visible to us. I don't know. Anyway, this is so, these conversations are so hard, but so good.

I feel very up-ended sometimes when I talk to you because you're unlocking things for me too, just along with you who are listening. So

Marta Sierra: Yes. I mean, your example's really powerful, Haley, because by in, in a different space and time, if you were listening to parts of you that were sabotaging the connection with your family, right, that were saying like, they don't really want you there, they just invited you out of obligation.

You know, you're not really one of them. Like you shouldn't go, you know, you might have not even gone. From a place of paralyzing theory maybe wouldn't have gone. And these corrective experiences where we are loved and accepted as we really are require vulnerability. And that vulnerability requires an internal sense of safety.

Haley: So I'm extrapolating. Does that mean somehow deep down, uh, you and I both are, have experienced this safety and we're sort of trusting that, that even if something had happened, like even if your mom had rejected what you told her, or I had got the, uh, Okay now you guys step out. Let's have the real, they're just the real family now, um, and we would've been, okay. Would've been painful, but we would've been okay.

Marta Sierra: It would've been very painful and we would've relived a lot of trauma, but we would've been Okay. Yeah.

Haley: Go us. I'm growing up. Look at that. . . No, I think it, it demonstrates, that some measure of healing work we've done has been effective.

Marta Sierra: Yes. Yeah. Mm.

Haley: Okay. I'll take that. Thank you. I'll take that in. . Is there anything else you wanna say to us about identity development, especially as adults? Like, huh? Do we need to do this? Like I think we do. It's obvious to me from the folks I've talked to who are coming into their adoptee consciousness and processing these things.

Marta Sierra: Yeah. You, I, again, I can't say community is the medicine enough. Right. But if we think about that, we need to find community for all the different kind of parts of us or all the different identities that we hold. You know, I need, I need other adoptees for sure, but coming into my queerness, I need other queer people.

And some of coming into my own queerness is, uh, creating community in my personal life, but it has also been running my first LGBTQ group for adoptees and confronting my own internal imposter stuff with that about like, am I queer enough to even run this? Which is its own interesting layer of identity work.

And that group space has been really powerful and , you know, we need community for, for all the pieces of our identities. Safe places to explore, safe places to say the hard things. And so, you know, why am I so public about all of this? I, because representation matters so much.

Haley: Yes. Thank you. And I, you know, I said before, like, I thanked you for sharing these deeply personal parts of your story because it comes at a cost and it's so amazing that you're so generous with that and letting us in. And I really believe it brings freedom for other people to be who they are. So thank you. Okay. Where can we connect with you online? Marta,

Marta Sierra: MartaSierraLMHC@gmail.com.

Haley: Perfect. And then you mentioned that there is another podcast episode, right, where you talk more about, um, your queerness and polyamory, and we can link to that in the show notes, but you wanna talk about that?

Marta Sierra: Yes. So that is my dear friend Tasha Hunter's podcast called When We Speak. You can find that on Spotify or anywhere you listen to your podcast. And there is an episode on queerness and polyamory from me. Also one on adoption trauma that your listeners that have listened to all my episodes might not feel like brand new material, but that's out there as well.

Haley: Oh yeah. But more Marta is more good. Thanks So we'll, we'll link to both of those episodes.

Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom with us. Really appreciate it.

I am so thankful. Full of gratitude for every single therapist that has come on the podcast and shared some of their hard earned wisdom with us. I really, really appreciate it. So thank you, Marta. She's been on the show multiple times and has really guided a lot of us through some very challenging themes.

So I know today's episode was no exception, and I'm just really, really thankful. If you wanna connect with other adoptees and support the show, if you go to AdopteesOn.com/community, you can find out how to get started in our Facebook group or listening to our off-script episodes. Or join us for book club or off script parties.

We have a whole range of options for you. If you are looking to get into some adoptee community to talk about some of these things that Marta and I talked about today, we would welcome you in. Thank you so much for listening and supporting adoptee voices, and let's talk again next Friday.

231 One Million

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/231


Haley: This podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing stated on it either by its hosts or any guests, is to be construed as psychological, medical, or legal advice.

You're listening to Adoptees On I'm your host, Haley Radkey. Nope, that's not what I say. You're listening to Adoptees On the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. I'm your host Haley Radkey, and with me today is Carrie Kayhill Mulligan. Hi Carrie.

Carrie: Hi Haley.

Haley: Welcome to this very special episode of Adoptees On. Usually Carrie and I chat and record together on Adoptees Off Script for Patreon supporters of the show. But today, Carrie is with me because we are going to celebrate something very exciting.

Carrie: Do-do-do! Guys, I don't know how to act. I'm normally behind the paywall and I feel like I ought to have like, you know, scrubbed my nails and spruced myself up to be out here.

Haley: I know. I should have put makeup on today. Right, right. Like, yeah. Yeah. Mm. Okay.

Carrie: Imagine us being very fancy, very formal. Because the good news is exciting news is...

Haley: It feels like, it feels like fake news actually

Carrie: Now! No, no, no, no. Yeah. Really?

Haley: Yeah, it does. Uhhuh.

Carrie: Well, let's get to it.

Haley: Okay.

Carrie: Drum roll.

Haley: Um, Adoptees On, the podcast has been downloaded over 1 million times.

Carrie: Boop-ba-doo! Are we gonna have like a crowd sound like edited in? I gotta make a lot of noise right now.

Haley: Yeah. Applause.[ Cheering crowd sound effect.]

Carrie: Yeah. Imagine confetti you guys. Yes. This is amazing. Hailey. What, how did this happen?

Haley: I don't know. I remember getting really excited when one episode got a hundred downloads, and I mean, truly 80% of all podcasts out there, the median number of downloads per episode is like 150 ish. And so to know Adoptees On is pretty consistently in the top 10% of all podcasts, and, you know, you were the guest on the very first episode of Adoptees On .

Carrie: Amazing.

Haley: And your, your episode has the most downloads and we're, um, over 8,000.

Carrie: What!

Haley: On your episode now. Mm-hmm.

Carrie: Wow. Shout out. Hi, you guys. Whoever listened. Hello. . .

Haley: I know, right? Isn't that funny? Okay. So before we talk more about that kind of stuff, let's do a little update. Because that was in 2016.

Carrie: Oh my gosh.

Haley: So I think we should just do a little updates on our adoption stories, I guess.

Carrie: Sure. Because you also gave, um, so my story, you interviewed me for the first one that launched in July 4th, 2016. And then at the end of,

Haley: Wait. Don't say July 4th. Say July 1st. Yo. Canada. You were born here, so

Carrie: I know. And you know what? I put it in my head. It was on the Independence day of our country and it just came out wrong.

Haley: It's from Canada.

Carrie: Ugh.

Haley: Uhhuh . Uhhuh July 1st.

Carrie: See how adoption we're gonna get into that identity stuff. Woo.

Haley: Anyway, anyway, sorry to interrupt you, but go on, go on.

Carrie: No, I just went off of a deep thought there. I I just, um, where was I headed?

Haley: Tell us your story and any updates you have since we recorded in 2016,

Carrie: Since I last told you my story in 2016. Oh, I was gonna say, because we told, I got to tell my story and then at the end of season one you got to tell yours. I interviewed you.

Haley: Right.

Carrie: So, um, I'm sure those episodes, I mean, what is your episode number?

Haley: 13.

Carrie: 13. Okay. So episodes one and 13, then we'll do updates from there. Um, I have, in the time that you last heard from me on the front of the show here, you guys, I have continued to maintain a very healthy relationship, ongoing reunion with my birth father and with extended family on that side.

I got to, uh, travel back to where he was born, where all my ancestors were born, to attend a family wedding of my sister. Actually, that was our first off-script episode. I think that story, if you're at all interested, you can look back.

Haley: oh my word really? . Wow.

Carrie: Yeah, it was Carrie's trip to Labrador I think was the first.

Haley: Okay. Uhhuh.

Carrie: And I have actually had some ongoing and um, beginning contact with my maternal side through a cousin, through D N A testing and am slowly building in that side of my identity. I think those are the two main big things that have changed for me. What about you?

Haley: Well, I shared that I had a brief four month reunion with my biological mother. Way, way, way back. I think I was 22 and since then I have had no contact with her. She's not, um, responded to anything. Um, I've sent her some information here and there some medical changes for me and reached out occasionally, but I've never heard anything back. And then my maternal grandfather, who I was in contact with longer, I found out via Google search that he had passed away last year in 2021.

And nobody told me. so, so it's just like the gift that keeps on giving, you know, like that's the surprise that, oh, and you, you won't be included in this either or this either. So those, there are some painful things. I have had a little bit of contact with a maternal cousin as well. And then on my paternal side, I've been in reunion with my dad for 11 years and I literally, when we're recording this, I just returned from attending my brother's wedding, in which I was in all the family pictures.

There was not one where they were like, oh. Okay. Just the OGs, you know, that did not happen.

Carrie: Amazing.

Haley: In one of, in this speech when, where my brother, um, and his wife sort of were thinking all the, um, guests and everything at the reception he mentioned without caveat, you know, my three sisters. And so those moments were so impactful for me and probably, probably no one else in the room was thinking like, oh, that's so, you know, nice that he included you

Right? Like, it, it just, for everybody else it just was normal. And for me it was like so significant. I'm still talking about it, you know.

Carrie: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. And. To shout out to you for doing the work, I guess, to maintain those relationships and to be in their lives because it's, um, in preparation for talking today, not only did I listen to our first episode, but I also also listened to the trailer. And, um, y'all, if you have four minutes, go back and check out where Haley's heart was when she launched this podcast and what she wanted. And normalizing adoption reunion stories for the real life, nitty gritty and what it takes to build a relationship with genetic intimates that are actual social strangers is, we don't hear a lot about that.

And, um, I just wanna thank you for bringing that here because it's, it's wonderful to see that that's what one of your goals was starting out. And because it, here you are this many years in and, and to have been rocked. I saw the pictures you posted of and, and the, what you were describing, the sense of being so fully included was shocking.

You could, you almost can't even enjoy it because you're surprised by it and dissecting it and thinking about it and wondering and trusting and testing and those connection parts of ourselves are not guaranteed. And so even as we build beautiful relationships, some people could look at the picture of you with all of this first family included and think, oh, wonderful. Hallmark moment. But there's so much more going on. And this show has provided a place for all of us that tune in to, to really explore what those complicated shades of feeling are. It's not just either or, there's just so many different ways we can feel about it, but there's still so many commonalities that that's really one of the things that, I mean, I guess we'll get to that next, some takeaways from listening to the first episode.

Haley: Okay. I'll be honest, I procrastinated. I put up as absolutely long as possible. I think I was messaging you several days ago saying, yeah, I'm gonna listen to episode one and give you my notes so we can prep for this episode. And I put it off as long as I possibly could because I knew it was the most downloaded episode and I also knew it was the first one I made and I did all of it myself.

And it took for- fricking ever to make that show. And was, I'm like, I feel like I'm doing a lot better now. So, but, I listened and I was like, okay, you know what? It holds up. I, I sound very timid and, I was gonna say nervous, but like, it's more this like meek energy and I thought, wow, I've like grown up on the podcast even though I was a grown up when I started it, but I'm 39 now, and so I don't know.

What were your first impressions when you re-listened?

Carrie: Yes. Um, yes, they were a hundred percent the same. And I, I think I've only listened to it two times before and I was really pleasantly surprised at how well I thought it holded up. I You must have done a really good job of editing, but also you guys, uh, if you have ever followed along to some of the stories that Hailey has saved on the Adoptees On Instagram, I think it was, or is it your personal, where we talked about, I think it was for 500,000.

No, it was for five years. And, and we talked about our story of, of how we first met and the first episode that we recorded actually, um, was not usable. So the one that you hear, is my second attempt at telling my story. So a couple things hit me and one was, one, I was really glad I had the chance to practice on the one that got thrown away because I think it helped me edit what I wanted to say.

And I know, Hailey, that you are the first person that ever asked for my adoption story in a verbal setting. Like that's the first time I put that story together in one long breath of an hour. I, what strikes me in listening to it is the amount of emotion that you can hear me still processing in some of the gaps, in some of the, you know, the laughter that is really just processing hurt emotions and trying to get them through.

There's so much of that. Mm. And, and I just feel for my baby adoptee self of like still just. In the first, I mean, it had been a couple years that I was processing adoption, but I feel also timid in some of my pronouncements and in some of my opinions. I was still, still really obviously to me grappling with the hurt, even though it's years past the, when the reunion started, it's a good eight years past when I started with Alan, and that just shows me, just because time passes doesn't mean that we grow.

We have to work with some of the things. I think I'm, I'm no therapist, but I feel like the fact that you and I have taken the time almost weekly in, in the past five years in the bonus episode we do for patrons that help make the show go on the Patreon offered off-script podcast, whether I wanted to or not, we've been talking about adoption stuff a lot, , and I can just see all the gaps in my thinking. I can see and hear some of the baby ideas that are starting to grow, but haven't had time to really get fully formed. And so, um, I I have a lot of empathy for myself in listening to that. And for you and just for how we were setting the template, because I was also like, there was no standard format for the show.

And that really delighted me to hear, oh, I know that you knew what you were doing, but I didn't know that's how it was gonna sound, you know? And. Anyway, just, um, those, those were the kind of things on an emotional level that really hit me. Was it, it still seems raw to me in hearing myself. I can hear that emotion.

Haley: Okay. Well, here's a good time. Let's hear a clip and then I want to hear you react to it and tell me if any of your thoughts on this particular thing have changed.

(Audio clip of Episode 1)

Carrie: It's weird and there's, there's hard things in every family, and adoption is a blessing in a lot of ways. I don't mean to be, you know, the ungrateful adoptee, but I was so surprised cuz I was always such a cheerleader for adoption.

I was, it felt doubly hard to, um, be upended by the re by the reunion process cuz I, I felt sort of betrayed by the whole institution. I felt like I'd really only considered the upside. And then you have to, when when you meet the people that walked away from you, you have to really confront that part of your history that you weren't always chosen.

(End clip)

Haley: Okay. So that's a pretty illuminating clip.

Carrie: Hahaha

Haley: How do you feel about adoption now? So we're six and a half years later and I personally haven't heard you say adoption is a blessing in a lot of ways for a long time.

Carrie: Wow. I've got so many thoughts that go through my head when I hear that. First and foremost is that I hear myself grappling with the lived experience of being separated from my identity and culture and mother straight from the womb, and trying to communicate that in an environment where people only at a surface level understand the gloss, the glossy story of how great adoption is.

And I see myself struggling with being taken seriously, and that I'm realizing that any critical pronouncements against adoption will be seen as and written off as ungrateful. I hear myself trying to make room and acknowledge people's understanding that adoption does show, what I think people really want to highlight when they are promoting the adoption as love and adoption is wonderful sort of narrative, is that adoption proves how full and wonderful the human heart is of the adopting parent that can take in non-genetic kin and raise them as their own.

That the idea of found family and how beautiful that is and sort of the idea that what could be better than pairing up orphans with loving families. What I hear in that, in that quote that you just played is, is that I'm bouncing up against that stereotype and trying to, what I'm realizing, I guess, is that in listening to six and a half years of other adoptee stories is that our individual stories are our own, but they're reflective of a systemic injustice, and that's what I was trying to grapple with there is, is the personal story that is mine, and no one really should be able to argue with, but the societal vision of adoption, that is in fact masking a systemic injustice, a for-profit institution. And no one really wants to look at that. And as soon as you start talking about money and adoption, people tune out and think you're a crank.

But these are real things. I, I feel like I don't talk about adoption being a good as much anymore, but I feel like I would like to circle back and try and remember where people are at and that when we say there's problems with adoption, and adoption is trauma, what they hear is that human beings aren't good and that they can't love small babies.

And what kind of monster are we to suggest that that is not good ? Uh, is that It's complicated answer, but.

Haley: It is complicated. Well, I have seen from both of us, but I'll sort of speak for myself. is, I have become more and more radicalized over the years.

Carrie: Yes. Me too.

Haley: Starting from the viewpoint of, uh, in childhood, like this is a gift you were chosen. Just imagine had you stayed in here, original family, you know, you wouldn't have anything basically to, oh, there are good and bad things. The both/ and. To wow. Just as you said, the systemic injustices. Where are the upstream problems that we could stem to stop the need for stranger adoption to stop the need for the, to use abolitionist language, to stop the family policing system.

All of those kinds of things. It's amazing to me how far my viewpoint has shifted. And I hear you saying, if we're only talking about this radicalized view that I have, we leave everyone else behind and they just can't see it. So to talk about the both and is more Mm, more of an easy way in for folks to actually listen and process alongside of us, to then see the systemic injustices and be called to act on them.

Not just sit on the sidelines, and watch adoptees do all the work to try and center family preservation and watch all the first parents who've lost children to try and save other mothers from becoming mothers of loss. You know? So, Yeah, I am surprised how far I've come in these last years when starting out I really thought, wow, I have a really nuanced view. And cuz I see some of the negative signs too.

Carrie: Absolutely. Haley. Absolutely. And I, I jokingly have said on our off-script episodes that you have radicalized me, being part of this adoptee community. And I don't put that on your feet. I think it's just knowledge and knowledge is power. And the ideas had been handed to me through such an unassailable point of view before, that, um, it's been very powerful to hear other people describe the same sorts of struggles at personal levels. This critical mass of voices joining together to talk about individual harms that come from a common collective system of injustice. I would've never guessed that would happen. I didn't imagine that could be the outcome of this podcast.

I just, you know, and this is, um, we're recording this in the middle of November, y'all, and you know, who knows what the fate of Twitter will be. I mentioned that only because I only met Hailey through Twitter, and I don't know if your other initial interviewees were also Twitter friends and follows and

Haley: Yeah, they were.

Carrie: If, if Twitter goes down, as it might, you know, if you follow the news, who knows. I'm just so grateful you have made this community here for adoptees because we were each out there in our own little silos, and you found a way for us to put our voices together and make a chorus, and we're not singing the same melody I mean the same, you know, part, but it's all the same song.

You know, there's, there's sopranos and bass and altos and people doing percussion, but it's, we're all on the same song here of what an adoption experience is like, and I, I think it's really important, as you said in the very first intro, sneak preview into the whole series. It's we're the most least the least heard from group, so

Haley: I still think that's true.

Carrie: I do too.

Haley: Yeah. I still think that's true. Even though over the last years, there has been an explosion of adoptees doing all kinds of things.

Carrie: So much.

Haley: Other podcasts, more social media accounts featuring adoptee voices and

Carrie: Writers groups.

Haley: Talking about the hard things in adoption. Yes. Writers groups, more memoirs,

Carrie: Letters to the editor,

Haley: More everything.

Carrie: Everything, everything. It's so good you guys. Mm-hmm. and, but I just feel like it only really can get this weight of collective strength because there were a few, you know, you were, you were not the very first adoption adoptee centered podcast, but you were one of the first five, I think, and, and this whole group, everyone doing it together, I feel like the time, it's like spontaneous generation where things happen.

The same thing happens in different places around the world. I feel like it was an uprising and Mm, I'm so grateful for it because if we lose our social media contacts, you've already built another place.

Haley: There's somewhere else for us to go. Yes. Okay. I want to ask you another thing about your story and processing and I don't know if you know this about how I've seen you, but from the first times we connected and you told me about your history, I have always seen you as an indigenous person and you don't ever lead with that. From what I've seen, and I'm curious over the last few years and hearing from other transracial adoptees and reading their memoirs and listening to the interviews, I'm curious how you've grappled with your indigenous identity since processing those things.

Carrie: That's one. Thank you for giving me that feedback. You've never shared that with me before. And what are our friends, if not the mirros that we need in our lives to show us things that we can't see about ourselves? So, thank you, my friend. I have struggled mightily with my indigenous identity. I, lemme just back up and say Reunion had me struggling with my identity, period.

I have never had such an upheaval in who I thought I was since my teenage years and I, I know a lot of us would never wanna go back to that. I think the majority reason for that was layering in if, if y'all haven't listened to my story in episode one, the Catholic adoption agency knew that my father was an indigenous man from Labrador.

A Metis man, white explorers came to Labrador and met and married indigenous women. And that's what my father's history is. The Catholic Charities adoption Agency knew that, and literally, so I, I have paperwork that shows they know his heritage and then I have the paperwork that they told me about myself, which is that I also have his heritage.

They told me that he was only English and Scottish and they left out his indigenous background. And to know that that was kept from me is a, a real pain that I've had a hard time probing. It feels very numb inside me. I, I cannot overstate how important knowing my actual ethnic heritage has made for myself just looking in the mirror every day, because now I see him, I see my birth father in my face.

I see his ancestors in my face, in my body, in my hands, in a way that I, I only had ghosts before. Really nothing. But I don't have the lived experience of being indigenous and I pass as white. I'm white passing. I've had white privilege my whole life and uh, because my mother is white, so that makes me I guess a quarter indigenous or whatever.

I have the option to pass as white. And also the, I guess the curse of having passed as white so that I didn't question sooner. I was not forced to go and find this out and at, you know, 40 to try and figure out who am I all over again. It's been really hard and there are the other layers of the harms that have been done to indigenous people in this country.

In the colonization that's happened, people faking indigenous ancestry to try and get benefits that aren't theirs. I don't wanna walk in that space. For me, it really just points out adoptees are not, you know, it's not nature or nurture, but family is meant to be both. And, and we don't get, we get both pieces if we're lucky in reunion, but they're still not joined together.

And so my experience of being indigenous, the way that Alan experiences it and all his family experience, it is sort of limited to my time with him through proxy with him. I can absorb his consciousness of what he lived through. I can absorb it in pictures, but it is not my lived experience except for in these past little times.

So it's, I, I feel like an imposter in my own skin. I feel like I'm appropriating my own culture still. And I, I'm looking forward to, I think you mentioned there might be some more, you had one episode that talked about, um, cultural identity just last week I think, and I don't know if there's another coming up.

Was there someone else?

Haley: Yeah, we're talking with a therapist about it very soon. So yeah,

Carrie: Teasing that.

Haley: I'm looking forward to that. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I appreciate you sharing that. And I know it's even awkward. It was so awkward for me to say that to you because, I also don't wanna put an identity on you that is not, I don't know,

Carrie: No, no.

Haley: How do you say this?

Carrie: It, it's, it's, it's someone's own personal identity. You can't, uh, assign it to someone, but if you know my story and then you can see that in my face and in my body, then you are able to help me see that back.

Haley: But also over the years of our friendship, and when you talk, including in our first interview, you talk about your body type. You talk about being in Alaska and your connection to making your stunning winter hats and dog mushing and all of these things that you go ahead and you, you literally attribute to your ancestors. You say it, right? So you are saying those words, but then you didn't, you don't connect it one step further Where I have done that, for better or worse, not sure.

Carrie: No, I like it. I like it very much. But it's true. I think that it's a numb spot in my identity still and I'm trying to live into it without appropriating it. Like it's, it doesn't feel authentic cuz it's not my lived experience, even though it's my inherited experience. And you know, some of the things we've, you and I have looked at a lot of papers and studies and news in the past five and a half, six years in Off Script, and we've learned about epigenetic memory. We've learned the way that, um, memories are stored and handed down through generations. We've learned about mother cells being passed on through generations. There's science about belonging in a biological sense that I feel like, um, my brain gets, but my heart doesn't still, I'm still like jet lagged in my own life and identity.

Haley: Mm. Well, I I appreciate you sharing that. I'm sure there's a lot of folks that will identify with you in that. I was surprised when I listened back to some of the things we mentioned in the first episode and the things we recommended also holds up. How about that ?

Carrie: Absolutely. You guys really good recommendations, I thought right out the gate.

Haley: Yeah. So, and now I have a change in her title, but Dr. Deanna Rhodes, we recommended, um, a couple of her books and I was, you know, telling you in that episode like, Yeah. And her mother didn't tell her who her birth father was, and she was on the show in the mid hundreds, I, I thought I had written her episode down, but I'll have to put it in the show notes for everybody.

And to that point, she was still searching for her father, and this year in 2022, she finally found her father. And that story is really, really remarkable. So you can check on her Facebook, um, if you wanna hear what's up. And she, she's about to be featured in some very large media platforms.

Carrie: Ooh.

Haley: Sharing that story.

Carrie: Mm-hmm. . Wow.

Haley: Yeah, it's really tremendous. So, um, she's continued to, right to and support the adoptee community, um, over the years, which is really amazing. And the other blog we were talking about was Lost Daughters, which they haven't been as prolific in the last few years, but there's still so many good pieces over there.

You and I talked through the stages of Reunion that were listed on the Origins Canada website at the time and I just, I went through and clicked through and they've updated their list and they have a few more stages. And it's interesting to me, over all the hundreds of conversations I've had with adoptees, you know, either on or off air, how I'm like, wow, we really are in like the stages of grief.

Meaning it's not one step after the other. There's cyclical, sometimes you hit some, sometimes you don't hit, you know, many of them, like all of those kinds of things. So, I just thought, wow, like we really hit on these things that are, still have value and the conversation has been added to so, so much over the last years as well.

Carrie: I absolutely agree. It was very fun to see and I was talking about some books that I was recommending and those books still stick with me, so that's really fun as well.

Haley: Absolutely. Okay, so we've talked a little bit about Off Script here and there, and just to clarify, that is the Patreon podcast that folks get if you're supporting the show on Patreon. It's every week as well, . So there's, you know, two episodes a week and when adoptee's on is on a break, Off Script is still going. So, if you ever wanted more, to hear more from me and Carrie, there's your chance. But as you mentioned, we first connected on Twitter and then I asked you if you wanted to, you know, help me with Patreon and start recording together. And we literally built our friendship through recording Adoptees Off Script off-script episodes, and this is gonna sound very weird, and I think we also talked about it on our Instagram live; those were some of the only conversations that we were having at the time.

It wasn't like we were texting each other in between or messaging each other. We were just like building friendship recording on audio.

Carrie: Yeah, it's wild, y'all. I . The other thing that I kind of noticed from our first, um, episode was like, we had good rapport already though. And maybe that's just because you're such a good listener, but I was surprised, like, because we'd only talked one other time before it was for the first failed one.

It wasn't like we had any, and I just because you asked, I told you everything and I've been doing it ever since. You're just such a good listener, Haley. It's. It's a funny thing to have all of you in on this friendship because it's, it's, again, it's more mirrors. Like when you posted this picture of us today asking for mailbag questions, so many other people were like, it's wonderful to see you together.

Like they, they're enjoying our friendship, growing in real time with us.

Haley: That's right. Yeah. It's like a community friendship, right? A communal friendship. Cuz when folks listen to us, like they literally feel like they're sitting down at the table with us having coffee or whatever. Um, or we're out on a run with you, which I wish that counted towards our heart health together.

But I am curious what your feelings are about the friendship we've built and the benefits to having adoptee friends, and I'll just go first. This summer was the first time we were ever in person together. And that was so amazing and it took me forever to post about it or share any pictures because I wanted to like hoard it to my....

Carrie: oh, I was gonna say, it's almost worse because now like I know what I'm missing. Like I just wish we lived closer. But how wild. How wild to know you for six years before we actually meet. And not just a friend that you, you know, someone you pass at work or something, but someone you tell all the hardest things that you're thinking about and dealing with and going through and tears have been shared.

And I'm not even a big crier.

Haley: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. ,

Carrie: Is there anything else that you feel about having a recorded friendship out for the world, for the patrons to be part of?

Haley: Well, I haven't listened back to most of off script and. It just feels, feels like I'm eavesdropping on past Haley. And sometimes be because I have children and I have this weird job where I know I have, you know, I'm gonna have thousands of hours of audio that when I die my kids can listen to and you know, discover more about their mother.

Sometimes that's the lens I'm hearing it from. Like, oh my gosh, what if they listen to this someday? And it's more about like this legacy piece for me, which is, I don't know. I know it's a strange thing to say, but as we're living out in real time, these friendships and conversations like nobody else is recording their conversations and listening back to them if you're. You know, a sound mind like, it, it's not right.

Carrie: You're not a creeper. Right. .

Haley: Yeah. So it's weird, you know, cuz I can go be, I like, no, Carrie, actually you said this, remember here, let me play it back for you. Right, like, I literally did that today. Um, no one else can do that. So it also feels, feels weird,

Carrie: Yeah. But it is, uh, I find it interesting because I do go back and listen because there's often things that I'll say like, oh right, I gotta do that. And I never remember to do it unless I go back and listen. Oh. And so there are, it's, it's wild because I'll be like, oh, she did see that cool thing. Oh, I was gonna check that setting.

Oh, I've gotta remember to look up that show. And so, um, it, it amazes me like how much can go in and outta my head, even though in the moment I'm like, with you totally gonna follow up. And then it's like, oh yeah, yeah. . So that, it's kind of nice. I just have an audio reminder of what we talked about and what I said. I was gonna follow through on .

Haley: Okay, is there anything you have said on the record that you regret?

Carrie: No. No. Although I will say that, um, it's just a little embarrassing to be learning in public, I guess, or on Patreon because I know that early on, you and I both had limited ideas or understanding of how much better say open adoption would be.

And now I think we would, you and I current selves would debunk past selves ideas and disabuse ourselves of, why that's not necessarily better, and maybe it's just a panacea to make more adoptions happen.

Haley: I'm with you. Those are the things I regret. Yeah, and I think sometimes about people taking quotes from past Haley and being like, well, no. See, this is why Haley believes, you know? Mm-hmm. like, well, not anymore.

Carrie: I mean, in that way it's kind of interesting to me because we have a real record of our own thinking and growing on this subject that's intimate and important, and I think socially applicable to lots of people.

One other thing that I've really come away with through listening to so many stories and being community with adoptees is, is realizing that we should be building bridges with other people who are searching for social justice and other causes, and that I think those are the easiest bridges. Those might be the easiest in roads we can make.

Haley: Yeah, I've definitely struggled on that front. I will be completely candid about that because from the inception of this podcast, I have always led with adoptees, our number one.

Carrie: Mm-hmm. . .

Haley: And so I try to make every decision about who I have on the show and what topics we cover and what I say publicly or, and who I interact with publicly to always center adoptee voices. And I think I've done really good job of that. I don't think anyone could point to something I've done or said to be like, oh no. Well, Haley was really highlighting adoptive parents there or something.

Carrie: No, no. Agreed. A hundred percent. You have been such an advocate for adoptees, Haley.

Haley: So that's why when folks talk about allyship with other groups, I absolutely see there is a place for that. And especially for those involved in, um, political activism and trying to have more support from officials for opening records or adoption annulment, or any of those kinds of like actual political issues that won't get changed unless government changes, I'm not really in that space. I am really more focused on changing the societal narrative and not necessarily doing actual political on the ground activism. And so I just keep adoptee voices centered.

Carrie: Absolutely. Well, and I think it's super important because I, I know that something we've talked about before is that in many ways adoptees are still trying to struggle to claim an oppressed status, most people just think we're lucky. So we're still trying to carve out a space where people need to understand why this is a, a civil rights issue, so, um, I think that's really important. But I, I just mentioned more as, um, even just in conversations with friends, understanding ways that adoptee struggles mirror other struggles and that those are maybe inroads into conversations and ways that I can get people to circumvent the knee-jerk reaction that they have, the conditioning, that adoption is great.

Haley: Right. That totally makes sense. Excellent. Well, what I was gonna share is my most embarrassing moment is literally screwing up that interview with you. My very first one. Um, which I've said before.

Carrie: And it's not front facing.

Haley: It's not front facing. Yeah. No one will ever hear it. I don't even know if I have it anymore, frankly.

Carrie: You might have some more questions, but I, I'm getting curious about our numbers. Like Lady, what are you talking about for numbers here?

Haley: Oh my gosh. So, okay. My official numbers are at a million now, but because of my podcast host, I'm probably more around 1.2.

Carrie: What!

Haley: I know, the stats report differently depending on the platform. So I'm probably more around that, um, at this time. But I want the screenshot that's got the mil right on the one site, not counting all the other places like YouTube and Facebook and Google Podcasts and those spots. But there's over 150 countries.

Carrie: What?

Haley: Yeah. Which is really amazing. And some of them just have like, you know, one or 10 downloads. But that's a lot of countries like for sure.

Carrie: Yeah.

Haley: Um, which is really, really fun.

Carrie: I'm like googling how many countries in the world? like 300.

Haley: I know this is a thing, like I don't think I'm ever gonna be like, oh, it's over 400 countries. Right? Like, cuz there, I don't think there are over 400 countries . I think we're closer to, you know, 190 something.

So, yeah. Yeah. And your episode is the number one episode downloaded. Then Dr. Liz DeBetta and the third one, this really surprised me, is, A recent episode from this year where I did my DNA testing.

Carrie: Wow.

Haley: I know. Isn't that funny, Hailey? Wait, how many, how many countries do you say are, have downloaded? Over 150.

Carrie: So this says 195 countries in the world. Yeah, that's three quarters of

Haley: Three quarters of countries.

Carrie: More than.

Haley: Look at us.

Carrie: Yeah. Whoa. That's pretty good. Reach, girl.

Haley: Good reach. Yep. Pretty fun.

Carrie: And do you know where left, which countries we haven't reached into? Who do we need to pass on the

Haley: I have no idea. I have no idea.

Carrie: It doesn't break down that way.

Haley: No, it's just a list of countries and I've, I mean on here there's over 160, but some of them, are duplicates. So it's like a weird, okay. It's a weird thing to try and break those out. So.

Carrie: Fascinating though.

Haley: Internet stats, it's, uh, strange.

Carrie: And, uh, one of the other questions I had had for a long time was like, how, how much momentum do we have? Like how long did it take you to get to 500,000 versus how many from 500 to one mil.

Haley: Okay. I started working on the show in March of 2016. My official launch date, as we talked about earlier, was July 1st. Even though there's a couple episodes, if you look back in your feed, I think they say June, but July 1st, 2016 was like officially public and I hit 500,000 downloads in September of 2020.

Carrie: Okay.

Haley: And so it's taken me just over two years to go from the 500 k to a million.

Carrie: So it's doubling. ,

Haley: Well kind of. Okay.

Carrie: Right? right. You got, you got the same amount in half as much time.

Haley: Well, I mean that's true, but people download like the whole back catalog. Right. Okay. I cannot believe the folks that have said, oh yeah, I just binged all the episodes, I'm like, wow.

Carrie: And how many total episodes are you at now?

Haley: This is, this is going to be episode 231 and on Off Script we're at 193 or 194. So , so for talking all podcasts of all time, we're at like 400 or something.

Carrie: But you're not counting the downloads for off-script in this 1 million? Correct. This is just for the main show, right?

Haley: Just the main show. I have no idea. Off-script downloads. It is a mystery.

Carrie: That's why I can't, I'm just keep looking. So if there's 300 episodes, you said almost

Haley: No, we have 231 episodes on the main feed.

Carrie: Yep. So 1 million divided by 231. Yep. That's still 4,300 unique listeners. If everyone listen, were completists, which they're not, so.

Haley: Right. Yes, I know.

Carrie: Amazing.

Haley: I was trying to talk to my kids about how many people, a million people were, if it was a million individual people. Right. If everybody only listened once, then I would have a terrible show, I guess. But, um, . Anyway, it's kind of bonkers to think about that.

Carrie: Well, and I'm looking at my episode if 8,000 people, a party with me and 8,000 people look like, like would that fill the stadium at the Dartmouth arena? Like what ? What would that look like? Wow.

Haley: I know. Isn't that funny?

Carrie: Yeah.

Haley: I need to think about, okay, so you mentioned, we have asked for some questions from listeners and so let's do those questions.

Carrie: Okay. We had a couple get turned in.

Haley: We had a, we have a couple. Okay. Yep. From Susan, who is very active in our adoptees on Patreon and is one of our Facebook group moderators. She asked, do we have a favorite book club we read in book club? Cuz we have a book club on Adoptees On Patreon. Um, and why is it your fave, so Carrie, as the main host for book club, how does it feel to try and choose your favorite book child.

Carrie: That felt really painful. That was, I was like, no, we're not gonna answer that question. How am I supposed to answer that? But I loved that Susan asked it, and I, what I landed on is that, for me personally, my favorite book was Susan Devon Harness's book, Bitter Root. Um, I think that was the first book of the book club. Is that right? That we did together? Or was it just the first book in the year that we did it? It wasn't, we never did it really as the book club you guys. It was the first. Oh, we did?

Haley: Yeah, we did. Okay. We did. Susan came,

Carrie: yeah, that's what I thought. Okay. Yeah. Mm-hmm. . I know that I had read it earlier as um, when we were just doing sort of a book reading challenge before we developed the book club, but for me, that one has had the most personal impact because as we were talking about, to develop, helped me develop my own indigenous identity. Seeing someone else struggle with that on the page was monumentally helpful.

It, it was the mirror I didn't know I needed, I didn't, I still felt like I was, um, creeping in over someone's shoulder. That wasn't a story that I really had a right to hear, but, um, that was for me the most important selfishly. What about you?

Haley: That's amazing. Okay. Well, just as I feel it's unfair to ask you this as most of our book, ,

Carrie: it's impossible. Right.

Haley: It also feels unfair to me because a lot of the authors of these books are my friends ready.

Carrie: Right, right.

Haley: And so , I can't just pick when I'm, this is gonna be a full cop out. Okay. I for YA I really loved reading for black girls like me. Yes, by Mariama Lockton. It is tremendous. Love it. I enjoyed the reading experience, I enjoyed the book club experience, all of it.

And I was so thankful the book was in the world.

Carrie: Like same.

Haley: As far as literary memoir, , I'm going to say Dr. Jenny Yin Wills' Older Sister, Not Necessarily Related, is such a beautifully written memoir and hauntingly. So she is just a tremendous writer, loved. And then for also literary memoir plus adoptee activism, uh, Tree of Strangers by Barbara Sumner.

Carrie: Hmm.

Haley: I really enjoyed that. I love Barbara. She is so freaking feisty and just says it like it is . She's who I wanna be when I grow up. And . My last one, I'm gonna say, um, because this style of memoir is so cutting edge, in my opinion with essays and photos and art, um, it is The Guilt of an Infant Savior by our friend Megan, Megan Culhane Galbraith. Um, for those of you who aren't on a first name basis, um,

Carrie: wasn't sure if you were gonna leave it there.

Haley: No, I know. An adopted child's memory book. And her Oh my. She's just amazing. Amazing. And if you've ever been to her, one of her writing workshops, like yeah, she's amazing. So, yeah, those are my, those are my picks cuz I just, I just couldn't do this one.

So it's a total cop out. Sorry Susan, but, uh, you know, I think I need to start writing some blog posts where it's like the top 10 from 2022. Or, you know.

Carrie: Ooh, yeah. Mm-hmm. just to, to give more shout out to all of these one. It has been so wonderful you guys. If you are not yet part of our Adoptees Off Script Book Club, adoptees only book club.

Haley: Mm-hmm.

Carrie: Even if you're not a big reader on the page, you can get a lot of these books through audio books. And even if you don't think you would wanna get through a whole book, even just coming to the book club discussions, I have found discussing adoptees stories with other adoptees to be the added bonus for this whole podcast that I didn't know I needed.

It has, um, enriched my life beyond measure and the chance to think deeply about these books and come up with questions has afforded me the chance to be a life, a lifelong learner in a way that I didn't know I needed. Also such a bookworm bonus that I've been allowed to help facilitate in this group. I just can't thank you enough for that chance.

Haley: Best, best. It's so good. we have so many good book club recordings, um, on Patreon for sure. Okay, I think we're gonna, we're gonna a couple questions left and then we're gonna wrap up. Um, this question is from Kelly. What do you think are some big needs or areas of adoptee activism that are lacking leadership or workers?

Carrie: For me, I feel unqualified to answer this because I don't, honestly, there's so much going on out there and I don't know really what the holes are. I feel like you and I are, we're good at trying to process the news and share the news, but we are often focused on our own stories and how to change the narrative.

So in that vein, since that's sort of where my heart is, trying to change the narrative, I feel like the biggest thing that we could each do is gonna say, you're gonna hate me for this, you guys is, I think we gotta all go to therapy. we have to start with therapy, not even choking. We've gotta work on this stuff that's really hard. And then I think we have to have the conversations with our people in our lives, like start with the closest conversations. And then if we're brave, I think we can take our opinions and our experience just louder and letters to the editor and blog posts and sharing in all the ways that people are getting brave to do, because I feel like we just need to, I, I feel like we're making progress on cracking this narrative.

And I feel like the faucet has gone from a trickle to sort of mostly open to, like, we, I feel a flood could be coming and the time is right. And, and so that's where I'm hoping that the activism will go. What about you? What do you feel? Do you have any thoughts?

Haley: Well, i, I think you're in absolutely in the right order because I just see when people serve out of the brokenness mm, it really takes a toll on them. And especially when you're talking to your in real life people.

Carrie: Mm-hmm.

Haley: because you're going, you're going against the things. They've always believed that adoption is beautiful and it was the best gift. And when you are challenging that in any way. And seem ungrateful. It is, um, it's so subversive. It can be very painful...

Carrie: Mm-hmm.

Haley: to hear the people you love say you're wrong. You're just bitter. Who are those people you're hanging out with online? Like, it's so painful because you've summoned something up in yourself to share like this very true part of your soul, deep down in sharing your hurt and grief and pain, and for your trauma to be invalidated.

It can be so, so deeply painful. So, I love that you said therapy first, so we can work from a place of strength. Truly. Yes. Um, I, I too agree that most of the impact we can have is with our in real life folks.

Carrie: Mm-hmm.

Haley: because you know, as much arguing on Twitter as people wanna do, I just, it's tough. Mm-hmm. it's tough out there.

Carrie: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Haley: Yeah. And I can't really, I don't also really see, uh, big gaps anywhere except for the upstream problem solving. You know, we talk about why is there ever a quote unquote need for adoption? And really a lot of the issues are, as you like to say, maternal supports because you don't even have paid maternity leave down there.

Carrie: Mm-hmm.

Haley: um, healthcare access, just a, um, living wage, you know, all of those things.

Carrie: Affordable childcare. Right.

Haley: Exactly. So thinking about the upstream work, whereas you might not see that as adoptee activism, but I see it as adoption prevention.

Carrie: Mm-hmm.

Haley: and so, . You know, I, in my opinion, that's a great place to uh, serve in.

Okay. The last two questions I'm gonna combine. These are both from Mothers of Loss, and I suppose they're asking for hearing adoptee advice.

Carrie: Okay.

Haley: My daughter tells me she loves me so much. I believe she truly does. What I don't understand is why is she not actively participating in a relationship? I initiate most communication. She'll respond in due time and the other, again, from a mother of loss. Would you want your biomother to keep reaching out to you if you ghosted her a few years back, or would you want her to respect your silence and leave you alone? Oh, these are so heavy and I have a few thoughts on them. My first one, is that I really believe adoptees are entitled to know their information, but no one is entitled to relationship.

Carrie: Mm-hmm. ,

Haley: Right?

Carrie: Mm-hmm.

Haley: And we've heard that from multiple guests. And so for folks who have unprocessed trauma to come back into relationship can be extremely challenging, triggering even, and so painful on all sides. That relationship can quickly become untenable. And so this also may sound like a cop out. Carrie, I'm gonna borrow from what you just said. We need to all come into this having done our own work. And so the more you want from your, you know, child that you relinquished, The more you need to go to your do your own work in therapy, we would say the same thing. If it was an adoptive parent asking the question, do your own work first and hope for the best.

Yeah. Carrie do you have thoughts?

Carrie: Well, I just, I know as the person in a reunion relationship now on my maternal side, I've been the super flaky person and there's nothing, there's no malice behind it. It's not unprocessed emotion as far as I can tell. It's, it's just that it's hard to add intimate relationships later in life.

It's hard, and I'm sure that there are unprocessed things that are weighing into that. I know that I developed a hot and cold attachment style early on, and I think that plays out. Anytime there's new big, exciting relationships for me. Like I go towards and I run away and I go towards and I run away and I, I don't want a blanket statement for all adoptees, but I think that is not uncommon in trauma for lots of people.

And so I think that both can be true. Child can love you and also not initiate, and it, it particularly, I mean, I don't know this person, either person, but if, if there's stuff that's not been processed, it's harder. You're gonna get more of that and it's gonna be more intense towards, in a way, I would think, because that process is running unexamined.

Haley: Yeah. The other thing I would say about estrangement or ghosting, so I have been on the receiving end of my mother's ghosting, which was extremely painful because you just kind of wait and wait and wait and there's no like end point where they say, don't ever contact me again or something. Right. There's just nothing.

Carrie: Mm-hmm. .

Haley: and I have also been the person who estranged. And so when the people I am estranged from reach out to me, it is unwelcome. I feel that my silence is pretty, is communicating that I do not want contact. And so I find myself in this very strange place of mm, I have reached out to my, um, biological mother, as I said earlier in our call today, um, a few times to either do medical advice or do a check-in and say, I'm here.

I'm still open. And the silence I get back is communicating to me. I don't want contact, I don't want. And so it's painful. And then to be on the receiving end of what unwelcome contact is also painful, and I hope it stops. So it's weird. It's weird to be in this place of limbo and it's hard. And these are things I have to work out with my psychologist in the therapy room. So, and it's no one else's responsibility to fix that for me, but me, cuz that's, um, my reactions to those situations are mine. It's, it's no one else's. So.

Carrie: Thank you for sharing that. That is such an interesting predicament I hadn't ever considered that you're in. And I, I do think that the episode with, to Tony Corsentino, where he talks about the differences between secrecy and privacy apply here a little bit.

I feel like parents owe their children an explanation, a history, a genealogy if they're not able to raise them. I don't think that those same relinquished children owe ongoing contact to the people that didn't raise them. I, I think that they, hmm i, I just think it's a different, there's a different set of responsibilities for parents towards children and vice versa, whether you're adults or not.

I will also say that when I was estranged from Alan, birth father, he did not reach out to me. And that was really important to me. I needed to feel like I was in control of that situation. I didn't, um, part of the estrangement was because I didn't feel like I was being taken seriously, and I didn't feel like I was being heard.

And I think that had he tried to reach out to me, I would've felt less and less heard the more that he kept trying. I think that he, maybe he's dealt with other stubborn people, but he let me cool down for two solid years. He let my sisters know that I was, that he was open if I was, roundabout way, but didn't come knocking.

And that made all the difference for me personally because I was able to cool way down and not feel, um, I, I felt like I had the agency I was gonna invite this relationship. I didn't owe it to him, but I came around to wanting it for my own sake, and that made all the difference for me.

Haley: Thank you. I hope some of those thoughts are helpful to folks. I wanted do recommended resources, but I wanna do something a little different. Okay. And it's going to be self promotional.

Carrie: Okay. You first .

Haley: Yeah. We'll both do it together. You're in on this. Um, the reason the show continues is because of our supporters. And it allows me to, like I said, pay my editor, pay Carrie, to host book club, pay our book club author guests when they come and speak with us, and all the other facets of fronting the podcast, all the hosting and website. And oh my gosh, you guys just, there's so much behind the scenes. This is no shade. I love, it's so funny, so many people start podcasts and then it's just like there's a few episodes and then they're gone that's why, cuz there's so much work behind the scenes.

So I really appreciate Carrie and Tiffany and Jen and Charlotte and the folks that work on the show behind the scenes and we're just so, so grateful. And if you join us on Patreon, our resources for you are the Adoptees Off-Script podcast. So you can hear me and Carrie. Mostly it's us. I have a few of my other friends on here and there. You can join us for book club that Carrie was mentioning. So adoptees only book club. We only read books that are authored by fellow adoptees. Often the author will join us and we'll have a live Zoom and we get to ask them whatever questions.

And often the author is like, this is the first time I've read my book with other adoptees and it's a gift to them as well. So those are so special. And the other really fun thing that we do are called Adoptees Off Script Parties, which I call friendship matchmaking, where Pam Cordano and I host a party, a zoom party, and we make up fun questions, , and then we break out into little groups and you get to meet and connect with other adopted people.

So all of those things. We also have a Facebook group that's for adoptees only and people can come in there and ask questions or ask for supports, um, when they're kind of going through something and get peer advice or just to be heard. And so all of those things are what make this mean show possible.

So we would invite you to come and join our community there. Um, it's AdopteesOn.com/Community. And for those of you who were finances are a barrier. No worries. This show. is a resource. I want it to always be free and no paywall content. I have literally told my husband, if I die, you are not allowed to put this behind a paywall. You have to keep it free and keep paying the Libsyn bill so it stays up for folks.

Carrie: Oh, haley.

Haley: So there you go. How about that? So, yeah, I, and I, I'm gonna just brag about Carrie just for a minute. She and I work to put Club selections together, and Carrie has found so many amazing adoptee books that are back list, um, that we wouldn't even found without her.

She writes the most thoughtful questions to interview authors. She curates these questions to help our community really learn at a deeper level about the adoptee experience. And she is, An expert at adoptee books now, um, which is so amazing. So it's been a pleasure to see you grow into that role as well in our community and to learn with you through the last several years, especially as we've both worked on being anti-racist and teaching our community to be more inclusive and really active in calling out, um, systemic racism and other injustice injustices.

And so I feel like I've grown up with you. So those are all the things I wanted to highlight, and I'm just really proud of what we've built here, um, for our community. And we can't do it without our community. So thank you. And a million is, is so wild. I can't, I just can't even believe it. It just means so much to me that people are listening to adoptee voices and, um, I'm honored I get to be like a conduit for that.

Carrie: What a wonderful, beautiful conduit you are. Haley. Thank you. And thank you for inviting me along.

Haley: Happy 1 million . I feel like we need a cheers.

Carrie: Cheers. Thank you all for being here with us. Thank you.

Haley: Yes. So thank you so much for listening and let's talk again next Friday.

(upbeat music)

230 Marcy Axness, Ph.D.

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/230


Haley: This podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing stated on it either by its hosts or any guests, is to be construed as psychological, medical, or legal advice.

(Intro music) You are listening to adoptees on the podcast adoptees discuss the adoption experience. I'm your host, Haley Radke today. We are excited to welcome Dr. Marcy Axness. This episode is a mix of a history lesson about adoptee activism and the psychological impacts of infant and mother separation. Marcy has her PhD in early human development and brings a unique expertise and lens to the adopted person's experience.

We discuss what it's like if we bring consciousness to our experiences and how we can be always moving towards healing. But also, unfortunately, there will likely always be opportunities for more healing. We wrap up with some recommended resources and as always, links to everything we'll be talking about today are on the website, AdopteesOn.com.

Before we get started, I wanted to personally invite you to join our Patreon adoptee community today over on AdopteesOn.com/community, which helps support you and also the show to support more adoptees around the world. Let's listen in.

I'm so pleased to welcome to adoptees on Dr. Marcy Axness. Welcome Marcy. Thank you.

Marcy: Great to be with you.

Haley: I have heard so much about you. You're a prolific in the adoption community and have been doing this work for so many years, but I would love it if you would start by sharing a little of your story with us.

Marcy: Wow. My story. Well, I was one of the very first pioneering what they called independent adoptions at the time, what we would call an open adoption. Back in the fifties. So my birth mother, or at the time prospective birth mother, I am pretty clear always about a pregnant mother being only prospective at the most when it comes to adoption.

But she, she had really firmly decided that she was, that she couldn't parent me, although she and my birth father at the time were living as man and wife. They were living this sort of pretend life in Santa Barbara, his hometown. And one day Liz, my birth mom, she went crying to their next door neighbor, Marcy Densmore.

They're all dead now, so I can use their whole names. She said, you know, we're not married and I can't keep this child, and what am I going to do? And Marcy had a dear friend who had suffered some pretty severe reproductive losses and was looking to adopt. She had a friend who had, had recently done a, a private adoption and so, They all put their heads together and Liz moved up to San Francisco to be near my prospective adoptive parents, Bea and Bob, and they went shopping together.

They had lunch at Blums together, all of those kind of fairy tale ish things. And I was born, I spent six days in the newborn nursery for reasons that, like I said, everyone's long since dead, so I really, I never was able to find out why, but after six days, I was taken home to a not really healthy adoptive family, and when I was 21, my adoptive mother Bea died of ovarian cancer.

And not long after that, my adoptive father, they had divorced when I was 11, by the way. Not long after my adopt, my adoptive father took me to lunch and he said something like, aren't, are you interested in meeting your real mother? That, that was the terminology he used, and I really wasn't all that interested.

He seemed almost more interested than I did. But anyway, he couldn't remember her married name. She got married shortly after she relinquished me and then had two other children, a son and a daughter, who I'm still close with to this day. And he just, my, my, my adoptive father who had a mind, like a steel trap, he could not remember her married name, but he did remember that she had some complications with her first delivery and he donated one pint of blood at Irwin Memorial Blood Bank in San Francisco.

He called them up, this is 20 years later, and said, I donated a pint of blood in 1957 or whatever it was, and they had the record and they gave him the name and I was on the phone with her like later that day. And you know, reunions. As many people as there are in the world or adopted people or people who've been separated from their biological family, there are that many reunion stories. Mine is probably somewhat in the typical range. We had this wonderful honeymoon period and we had a blind date at a fern bar in San Francisco, , and then we had our ups and downs. I, you know, I uninvited her to my wedding, which years later in various therapies I kind of came to see, form of recapitulation, like, let me show you how it feels to be invited and then uninvited. I didn't get that at all at the time, but absolutely. I have seen, you know, through the decades how we do these, kind of reenact these patterns and Freud would say that this is our way of remembering anyway, so.

We were estranged for 10 years and then not long after the birth of my second child, Annette Baron, who's name I'm sure is familiar to many of your listeners, she was really, I considered the matrefamilias of the adoption reform movement. She, with Ruben Panner and another one of their colleagues, wrote The Adoption Triangle way back in the, I wanna say, seventies.

Three social workers who sort of had an awakening about. What they were doing and the effects it was having on all, all members of the, of the constellation, which we came to call it constellation instead of triad, cuz it's just ripples out so far. Anyway, Annette said to me at that point, she said, don't continue the, the, the separation.

Do everything you can to not continue the separation. So one day I picked up the phone and I called her. And we were in touch ever since. I was at her death bed. This was, you know, 10, 5, 8 years ago, something like that. And we had a, a really quite a good relationship than the whole, and there's a whole other story with my birth father, but I will say I met them both in the same week and that is a lot.

Haley: Oh my goodness. Do not recommend. What's the ?

Marcy: You know, it's, You know, I had this big, exciting blind date reunion with my birth mom, and it turns out that within the prior, within that previous year, she had gotten back in touch with him. I mean, it was kind of very coincidental or synchronistic. If you will.

And so she picked up the phone, she said, guess who called me? And you know, so she. had plans. We jumped into her... and, and the reason I was up in the Bay Area actually at that time was I had sprained my ankle very bad. I was hoping to be a professional dancer at the time, but I had sprained my ankle really badly.

I didn't have an automatic transmission car, and so in Los Angeles, if you can't drive your car, you're pretty much dead in the water. So we just decided, hey, you know, my aunt, who was really much more like a mother to me, she said, come on up here for a couple of weeks. And that's why it even happened. I just happened to be in the area anyway.

So Liz came up with this whole plan of, instead of you flying home, let's hop into my VW bug and I will drive, we'll drive back to LA and we'll stop in Santa Barbara and you can meet your birth father. So it was all a, a real whirlwind at a time when I personally was still quite, I guess, asleep, as we say.

Or in the fog, there's various terms that are thrown around. So it was I, I think probably a lot of it washed over and off me. You know, I, I believe I lived a lot of my life, had lived a lot of my life up to that point semi dissociated, truly. But, you know, so that's, that's the basic reunion story. One, one button that I like to put on it now that I'm in my mid sixties, is now my birth mom like I said, died, I wanna say eight years ago.

My birth father died quite a bit before then. I still cannot go to Sacramento and get my original birth certificate and that is just an outrage. So, and yeah, so I'll stop now, and see, see where you wanna take this.

Haley: There are so many things. Thank you for sharing your story and yes, original birth certificate access, we are absolutely support that here. So outrageous is understatement that we can't have that document...

Marcy: and I've been involved in many, many movements. You know, I've written so many letters, you know, with my little adoption expert, whatever, nomenclature. But my own state, which is supposedly one of the most progressive in the country anyway.

Yeah. So, and then the one other thing, I'll just button, you know, a book came out not long ago called, I'm Glad My Mother Died. I think it was, I think the title of something like that by an actress who was writing about her years as a child actor and her like horrible mother. And I will say, That I have a certain amount of gratitude that my adoptive mother died when I was young.

It freed me in so many ways, in ways that I've watched other friends of mine with mothers not necessarily adopt, you know, adoption related, but just narcissistic mothers like my mom was, and they haven't been freed like that. So I'm quite grateful. And, you know, in my dark humor ways, I, I often have said, you know, my parents had the good graces to die when I was young, but they were older when I was adopted too, so, you know what I mean?

Haley: Mm-hmm.

Marcy: So, yeah, there's that.

Haley: Well, I mean, I, I appreciate you saying that because I think so many people feel like their hands are tied and they don't wanna hurt. But you know, I mean, you choose whatever you'd like to do. There's not a prescriptive thing, but you should have a right to have your information and connection to the people you wanna be connected to.

Marcy: Absolutely. But I, I know for myself, I, I was not a late discovery adoptee. My parents told me from the very beginning, I had The Chosen Baby, was it the chosen baby right, in my bookshelf. And, and yet I absolutely picked up so strongly on the vibe that it was not okay to ask about anything related to who I was or where I came from.

And I had all, you know, my mom had had a dear, dear friend Mary Owens, she had this really long waist length hair and she sang, You Are My Sunshine, and she kind of had this mythic place in my child mind. And I kind of, I think I, I definitely had a fantasy that this was really my mother. And I'm sure that this is an experience.

I know it is shared by many adoptees. We have this whole like fantasy scenario because we're not allowed to ask about just the very pedestrian regular scenario, that is most likely the case.

Haley: Right? Right. All of our celebrity parents in the ghost kingdom. , quick question. So you're named after that neighbor cuz she connected you?

Marcy: Yes.

Haley: Okay. Yes. Okay. I thought so.

Marcy: But I will, I will share with you and your listeners that my birth name, that I claim very proud. Is Catherine. Catherine McDavid. Mm. I'm a I'm a Scott's lass, all through and through.

Haley: Okay. So moving forward in time, you do a lot of education and I think you, you switched gears once you had your children. So can you talk a little bit about that and the expertise that that you have in early childhood and perinatal development, all of those things?

Marcy: Yeah. My adoption work really was just such an organically emerging thing after my second child was born. My daughter, as part of, you know, the day before she was born, I had this spontaneous regression is the, is the way I've come to understand it, that it was just, it was so very visceral and physical and I just found myself lying in bed sobbing and sobbing and saying these words over and over. "Mommy doesn't want me, mommy doesn't want me." And the words didn't come from my brain. They just like came up from my gut and out my mouth and I was, I was surprised to hear them and yet I had read just enough about prenatal psychology at the time to kind of in, in real time go, oh, I bet that's what that is. You know, I didn't spend much time analyzing it. I was too busy, like literally vomiting and just, it was a purge and it just kind of cleared the way for my daughter to just come through such an easy birth.

And going back not long after that, I got back in touch with Annette Baron, whom I had interviewed. I used to work for C B S News in LA and I had interviewed her for a series called Adoptees in Search. And you know, I can still, I literally, these, what, 45 years later, can still hear, her words like from that piece in my head, you know, "Adoptive parents, if their children in adulthood seek to search, need not feel threatened. They're looking for someone who looks like them. They're looking for someone who feels like them genetically, but emotionally their ties will still be with their adoptive parents." I mean, those are lit word for word in its words and, but here's the point here. After we were done and the crew was packing up their equipment, and Annette and I were just chatting. She said to me very like, she got very serious. She said, she gave me her card. She said, look, feel free to call me if you ever need me, if you ever wanna talk. And I at age 21, and this is all the same year I met my birth parents. This is what kind of inspired me to propose that I do this piece.

I was like, What for? I felt like I was, I was the ever gleaming, hyper achieving , good adoptee, like all the time. And I just couldn't imagine what she was talking about, about having any issues or anything. And, and then so what it was almost 15 years later that I called her and when, when I told her who was calling, she didn't even miss a beat. Like she, Annette was always so beautifully unfazed by anything, and she had me, I, I described to her my experience and I, I said, I said, do you think it's possible that adoptees come into the world already wounded in some way already, you know? And she said, well, there's this woman, Nancy Verrier and she's writing about something she calls the primal wound and said it like it was real exotic. And, and I just went, ding, ding, ding. Like, I need that. And at the time, I don't even know if Nancy's book had come out. She had just had an article in the, the Journal of the Association for Pre and Perinatal Psychology and Health. Anyway, I got that and then I ended up in Annette's kitchen soon thereafter over coffee. And she did say to me, we were kind of commiserating over the state of adoption at the time. This is in the early nineties, mind you, she said, you know when you can advertise for children next to the Volvos in the newspaper, you know you've gone wrong as a society and I was getting ready to go to AAC's next conference. I had been to AAC before and she said, no, if you, if you really wanna see the cutting edge of what's happening, get yourself out to Traverse City, Michigan to Jim Ritter's conference on open adoption. And so long story short, I go there, I'm sitting there, I'm listening.

I listen to the adoptee talk about adoption issues. And I had just started my own primal therapy. So there, there you have a dangerous situation, like a bit of a powder keg and I, I just was so, just so full of passion for the topic and it was so immediate for me because I was just really delving into it right then in therapy, that I went up to the organizer, Jim Ritter at the break and I said, I think there's room for another perspective. Would it be possible for me to have five minutes at the microphone? So he gave that to me and that was the beginning. It was like I just got up there and talked about, you know, writhing on the ground, getting back in touch with these, these visceral, I won't even call them emotions, because emotions are fairly a little more advanced in terms of nervous system development and brain develop.

They're like states, states that, that as a baby, we don't yet have the equipment as a newborn and a prenate, we don't yet have the equipment, the parasympathetic, calming branch of our nervous, nervous system, and we're just sort of flooded with these overwhelming states really. Anyway, so I just started writing and there were, at the time, there were magazines, Roots and Wings.

I was big into writing letters to the editor. My proudest moment was a letter to the editor in Time Magazine, which I have perma plaque in some box somewhere, you know, in response to always trying, I mean, I've really had, I've been pretty one note in what I've tried to teach through all these decades is that I'm a pragmatist.

I, I understand the argument that adoption should be abolished and we should have a guardian system. I, and I absolutely can see the merit in those. But I'm also a pragmatist and I just sort of believe adoption's always going to be with us. So if it is, let's do it in the most humane, healing way. And the number one thing is to understand that everyone comes to this experience with deep losses.

And so this whole relationship is built on deep losses and, and most often upon ungrieved losses. And this is where we run into so many problems. You know, when we swallow our grief, tuck away our grief, sweep it under the rug, like nothing good happens. So that's really all I was writing on throughout the nineties and writing about my own healing experiences and such.

And then I did shift gears because once I got into the prenatal piece, Haley, what I recognized is these issues, you know, being carried in a stressed womb, being carried as an ambivalent, you know, by an ambivalent mother. By a mother who possibly contemplated terminating the pregnancy. These are not the sole province of adoptee, of adoptee people.

A lot of people go through this, but within their biological family, and in some ways in kind of flipping the, the framework, I've said in some ways adoptees have a bit of a leg up because at least we know what happened to us. Think about the person who is kept in their biological family, but did go through all of that.

They were conceived through an affair, or they were, yeah. Who knows? I mean, there's so many different scenarios, but then it's like you're in your family and everything's good and you can't put your finger on what's going on and why you feel so out of your skin and all these things. So that's why I shifted gears and, and really started looking more into, sort of looking in a human development lens. And so that's what I got my doctorate in, was early human development with a, with an emphasis on prenatal development. And then I, you know, I wrote my book that came out in 2012, Parenting for Peace, Raising the Next Generation of Peacemakers, which it's based on seven steps in time.

And the first five step, I mean step five is postpartum. So you can see how front loaded it is, and I really believe that that is the way that we're gonna get some traction on a lot of our issues in our societies, really finally recognizing how early these things are in play.

Haley: Hearing some of the information we know about how much, you know, stress soup Uber cooked in to just be graphic about it.

Marcy: Yeah. Stress soup. That's good.

Haley: It can be really disheartening to think about for me because I'm like, well, I mean, is there anything you do? But it's, that's what happened. Right? So I think the more we understand about that, it can just be heavier and heavier on us. What have you seen? In terms of like a positive thing, like we know that you mentioned so that's a positive mm-hmm. . But being aware of that, how can that be helpful for an adopted person?

Marcy: Well, for one big principle that informs so much of my, my work and my life is that consciousness can change everything. And by consciousness I don't mean the state of being awake, I mean the contents of our consciousness.

And this goes for the pregnant mother with a crisis pregnancy too. Most long-term relationship people, if you say, what's the secret to your good relationship, almost always the answer is communication. So I would say this goes for this too. We carry so many selves within our own self, we carry the prenate that we were still and always, we carry, you know, , as I said in one of my talks, it gets real crowded in there so.

But you know, if we look at that in this, if we could kind of see ourselves more in quantum terms, like there's always the opportunity for healing and you know, that's sort of a, a double edged sword. While there's always opportunities for healing, the healing is always happening. It's... how many times I got bit in the butt by thinking, oh, that was the piece.

You know, whatever breakthrough I had in therapy that day, oh, now I'm fixed. Now I'm good. All right, I'm good. And I actually, it exists in print in some places, kind of when I was in that, like, ugh, I finally discovered the golden key and now I'm good. My mantra now is "always healing, never healed", which can sound disheartening.

I've never healed. And yes, sometimes it is a pain in the ass. I'm not gonna lie. Sometimes it's like I actually just started up a new round of therapy. I mean, here I am at 66 years old. I've been doing therapy for 45 years. All different kinds, modalities, whatever. And honestly, there are times it's like, oh, going back and dealing with this stuff is like the last thing I wanna do.

And yet, you know, if it hasn't sort of healed me, well then what has it done for me? It has illuminated the minefield, whereby I'm no longer sort of stumbling around and oh my God, I just stepped on a mine and why did I have such a huge emotional response to this little trivial thing that happened just now?

It's like I know where those are and I can recognize them really quickly. It doesn't mean that I don't sometimes get triggered. It's way, way less. I didn't even like that term by the way. Triggered. It's so violent but...

Haley: Activated That's....

Marcy: Activated There you go. Just this last week I had a really intense session with my new therapist and it had to do with shame. And, you know, shame. I mean, since Brenee Brown came out and sort of took shame out of the closet and made a big thing about it, a lot of people talk about it, including me. And yet here I am, 45 years into therapy and just sort of like a very, very intensive state, like overwhelming state experience of shame, didn't come up for me to deal with until now. That's crazy. And so to your question, how can we look at it in a positive way rather than disheartening way? I really believe that awareness and consciousness, putting the light of consciousness on something right there is just your, your leaps and bounds ahead.

Like I said to my therapist recently, how many times I've wished I could be one of those Ignorance Is Bliss people. Have you had that? You know,

Haley: Oh yes.

Marcy: You like, Ugh, I wish I could just be so blissfully ignorant, and walk through, you know, and just live happily through the fog. But then we get into karma and who you are as a person.

I'm a good Aquarius. That's just not me. And so I could kind of play around at wishing it were me, but it isn't. And you know, when you shine the light of consciousness and awareness on anything that's, that's immediately gonna bring some healing movement. I think one of the things we like to be looking for, not just as adopted people, but as human beings, is to avoid stasis, just this calcification in one place. We're kind of like sharks. We need to keep moving.

Haley: Well, one of the things that I have seen over time, I, I mean I'm newer in community if we're comparing our stories , but I've been podcasting for six years, sort of in adoption land for maybe a decade and I see this thing where people sort of discover everything about the primal wound and you know, some of what we've touched on today, and then they get stuck. It's, and, and I think some folks can, you know, be accused of like living in this victimhood mentality.

Marcy: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Haley: And I wonder if you can speak to that a little bit because I mean, I think there is a absolutely a time for like, oh my gosh, this is what happened to me and you're becoming aware.

And of course you'll have that time period of maybe being stuck, feeling stuck and staying in that, but how do we help those folks move into the next state? Or should we, should we just let them be in there? If that's, I just don't think it's productive. But anyway, you go.

Marcy: I, I wrote an article about this um, again, way back in the nineties when I was writing so much about adoption and speaking and at conferences and such. And when Nancy's book first came out, yeah, there was a bit of controversy around it, and one of my close colleagues wrote a critique of it, and so then I wrote kind of an, an answer to that. The title of my article was In Defense of the Primal Wound, and it circulated as that for a while, and then once Nancy and I became friends, she did say to me at one point, I don't feel like I, I need to be defended.

So I changed the title, it's now In Appreciation of the Primal Wound, and I'm pretty sure it's on my website. You think I would know, but I don't for sure. Pretty sure it is, but you can certainly Google it. It's all over in, In Appreciation of the Primal Wound, but I did address this issue; is the primal wound...? Well, the way I set it up in the article. As I recall, I started with a, a, a quick little snapshot from my now ex-husband's life, which is he, he was having this terrible, terrible pain behind his ankle, in his ankle or his foot, and he didn't know what it was, and it was really holding him back. And finally he went to the doctor and it had a name.

I don't remember if it was plantar fascitis at this point, but that was such a relief. It was, and we all know that feeling. Something's bothering us, and we find out that like there is a name for this and this is what it is, and this is, these are its features, these are its symptoms. So if you're feeling this way, this way, this way, that's understandable.

It's explainable. And that to me is the gift of the primal wound. It's like how many of us had been or have been living in the grips of something kind of amorphous? And, and nameless, but, and yet definitely there, but so kind of intangible. And then along comes Nancy Verrier, who, who is an adoptive mother herself and also a biological mother.

So she had felt these differences beyond just being different daughters. She did a deep study of Bowlby and all of the attachment literature, and she came to find that We kind of turned a blind eye to what we had learned about attachment when it comes to adoption. Sort of like, oh, adoption's supposed to insert this big exception to basic mammalian principles.

We are mammals. We are born with what Joseph Chilton Pierce, I believe, called biological imperatives. And one of them is that you stay connected with your biological mother. They've counted up to something like 17 or more avenues of kind of mutual regulation that happen at between the nervous system of the biological mother and the baby.

I mean, this is just looking at it just strictly from a neurobiological standpoint. Okay. And I find that that is a way that you can help people really get it. You know, without putting a whole overlay of is adoption good or bad, or, You know, even the whole cultural sociocultural piece of 'we've separated this person from his or her familial story and, and biological origins' just sticking with the, the mammalian thing.

We don't, we don't like to take puppies from their mothers until they're at least six or eight weeks old for God's sake. So I find that that's kind of a common ground to help people, kind of get a frame of reference that is a little bit more objective and less controversial, I guess. And so the primal wound really just came into a huge void.

There was, there was a void there. I think that's why it was such a huge revolution, really. I mean, it was a watershed moment in, in adoption land, as you would call it. So then, yes, one of the criticisms. Is that, then people just go, okay, that's, that's my answer. I'm a victim. I'm just gonna wallow here.

Nancy Verrier herself wrote a subsequent book in which she tried to, you know, really answered your question, which is, it's like, yes, so, so now what? Now that you've explained this, John, now that you know you have plantar fasciitis, you're not just going to sit there, you're gonna go to physical therapy, you're gonna ice it, you're gonna do all these things.

And so you can kinda look at the primal wound the same way. It's like, now that this has restored a certain sense of sanity to me, I mean in, in a certain way we're, we're gaslighted so much. Adoptees. You're grateful and you're happy and you're chosen and you're special. How many of us were grew up feeling special?

And the one last piece about that is, I mentioned James Hillman in in my article, James Hillman was a very popular writer for like a minute and a half back in the nineties. He wrote a book called The Souls Code and in in writing about things like your early story and being upset about it, his basic argument was, his basic position was the same as a lot of people's, I think, who have sort of a more cosmic view of like, we choose the lives we come into.

It's a whole, you know, more eastern philosophy of we live many lives and when we're in the spirit world, we choose the next life so that we can learn the lessons we need to learn and such. And his, his position is, It's ridiculous to complain about anything because you chose it, which I just find so like inhuman because I do believe, I happen to believe that more Eastern sort of leaning thing.

I believe in karma. I believe I've had other lives and I, and I can believe that I chose to come into life in this more complicated way, but that was when I was in the spirit realm. Then I also, in a paradoxical way, for that life to come to fruition, I need basic human empathy for that painful human experience that I went through, if that makes sense.

So it's a kind of a mobious strip kind of, kind of a thing. So I encourage anybody who has read The Primal Wound and who's just really wallowing in that. I think there is a moment to wallow. Hell, we've, you know, we've gone through, for me it was 31 years by the time I read The Primal Wound. For others, it's less, more, whatever you've gone through all these years of being told, no, you don't feel this.

Take your moment, take your weeks, your months, whatever it takes, but always keep in mind that next question, so as Mary Oliver would say, so now what are you going to do with this one wild and precious life? Now that you've got some more intactness to you by being empathized with, that's essentially what it is.

You've been heard, you've been felt. Now what's next?

Haley: I'm so grateful for that answer because it is such a simple quote, unquote question I asked you, but it's so complicated. It's really I love that picture of the Mobius Strip. It really is exactly right. I'm curious, I I just found this out that you were on a four year sabbatical from anything adoption related.

What was that like for you after being in this work for so long and knowing how taxing that can be?

Marcy: Right. Well, actually, let me back up a little bit because I will say that one other thing that contributed to me changing gears out of adoption, not so much out of adoption, but to broaden it to, to human development in general and and how important those very early years are, is a little thing called alt adoption. It was the ascendancy of the internet in the early two thousands and the absolute like wild west of the internet and some of the just viciousness and the extreme, what, just vitriol that you could encounter online and I mean, honestly, I may never be healed enough to, to be willing to be happy to walk into that.

So I was like no thanks. You know, I, I got a few tastes of it and very little that I write about I think it's very controversial. But anyway, I was like, Hmm, I'm just gonna take a minute there. So I had actually stepped back from adoption per se, you know, quite a few, you know, at the beginning, like 2003 or so, or even before that when I was doing my doctorate. Now I got deep into the topics that I've been talking about actually, how very important those, those months of the mother's pregnancy are, you know, how shaping those are for, for a human being and those early years.

And so I was very involved in that. I was very involved in Waldorf education cuz my kids went to a Waldorf school and so I, you know, my interests got naturally pulled into what my life experience was. And then when my book came out, I was crazy with the online promotion and the blogging and sending out newsletters and just all of that. And, right around the time that I, you know, this sabbatical opportunity came up, I was also sort of wearying of all of that.

And so it kind of was a perfect storm really of certain financial need. I mean, I definitely, you know, took this job out of financial need. It turns out that, you know, writing and speaking about human, early human welfare and mother well, you know, women's welfare does not necessarily pay the bills. And, you know, we see with what's going on around us right now, where the state of women's women's healthcare is and, and child welfare and all of that is all pretty depressing.

So, you know, it was like a complete pivot. And I was deeply engaged. I worked at a newspaper and basically wrote most of the stories for this small community newspaper, which is one of the last bastions of newspapers, by the way, are community newspapers, and they're very important. And so it was, it was a really good experience to, to be writing like, like workmanship writing, writing, writing, writing every single day about just the basic news.

And so, you know, kind of coming back, I've been sitting here and just kind of waiting for some real organic impulses. Like where do I want to put my, my energies and my, and my efforts. I do feel that my heart, you know, my heart really is in adoption first and foremost. I mean, that, that's, it's my ground of being, right?

And so it's, it's a basic frame of reference for me. I had just, just right when I, before I took the sabbatical, I had just started rolling out what I called my 25th anniversary edition of my Adoption Insight series, which were just these writings from the nineties. I have two adoption insight booklets that came out at the end of the nineties, and I was just starting to roll those out when this happened, and so that kind of got put on hold.

So, you know, I may start putting those up on my website again, I don't know.

Haley: Their 30th anniversary .

Marcy: Yeah, exactly. Hello. Thank you. Yeah, it really is. It really, if I, if I, you know, hold off and do it next year it will be the 30th anniversary and I'm marking it really from that watershed moment at Jim Ritter's conference, which was amazing.

And then I, I will say to footnote that then I, I had the honor of being invited by Jim Ritter to come and present at subsequent of his open adoption conferences in Traverse City, which really did set the bar. There's never really been anything else ever like them since, I don't think, and it was all the big, you know, Joyce Pavo, Annette Baron, Ruben Panner, all the true, you know, Sharon Kaplan Roszia just all the lights.

Patricia Dorner, who I love, and adore.

Haley: I think the only one of those people I've gotten to like learn under in person is Sharon and she is just like tremendous.

Marcy: Sharon is just a wonderful . Yes.

Haley: Yes. Okay. I know we're wrapping up and we're gonna talk about our recommended resources and ...

Marcy: oh yes.

Haley: But first I just wanna ask, is there any, like one thing that you really wanna say to fellow adoptee.

Just a broad question. Easy, easy peasy.

Marcy: Oh, that is a broad question. You have a huge community and adopted people are at such different places, you know, so it's, it's, I guess I would just say that you were wanted by the universe to be here no matter what may be living way down deep in your marrow. You were wanted and you were welcomed.

Haley: Thank you. Okay, so my recommendation for folks is to check out your website.

You have so many blogs as you've referred to, extensive writings on adoption. I, I read so many articles and was like, print. I still print them off, underlining things, and what I see happening is, Some one thing is welcome. There's new adoptees all the time, coming in and writing. They're like starting their blogs and they're writing.

I really wanna encourage people to go back and see what other folks have done, you know, and we think we're like starting something new here. But there's decades and decades of work. Okay, go ahead.

Marcy: I wanna thank you so much for saying that. If you had said if there's something that you wanna say to adoption activists, yes. I honestly, I often find it really irritating when I hear a, a younger adopted person, an activist who, in their expounding on these things, never gives any indication of being aware of, at all, let alone appreciative of the shoulders upon which they are standing, whose shoulders they're standing on.

People, you know, people have been doing this work for 30, 40, 50 years and they laid a foundation and, and it only strengthens and enriches, you know, the work of people in your, in your cohort to know that and, and to un and to have an awareness of, of what they're building upon. So thank you for saying that.

Oh my goodness. Thank you.

Haley: Absolutely. Well, and the other thing on your website, I mean, I'm still in the middle of parenting littles. I have two little boys. I'm eight. Eight and 10. and the quote unquote new thing now that's trending is gentle parenting, but your work on Parenting for Peace is really a piece of that.

Again, it's foundational for you. Like, look at me kind of funny. Have you heard of this? The Gentle Parenting, but you've....

Marcy: heard of Gentle Parenting? I was like, everything old is new again.

Haley: Uhhuh. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. So anyway, I for our parents out there who are looking for something like that, you of course are an expert in that as well.

And we didn't even get to touch on adoptee parenting, Marcy, this time went by so fast. Okay. What do you wanna recommend to us?

Marcy: Well, my recommendation is I, I wanted to come up with something that hopefully nobody else had recommended, and maybe that's true. So this is, this was a cassette that I have an actual cassette tape but I know it's available in more modern formats too.

So my recommendation is called Warming the Stone Child: Myths and Stories of Abandonment and the Unmothered Child, by Clarissa Pinkola Estés. And she was she wrote Women Who Run with the Wolves in the nineties. She was huge in the nineties, and I was listening to the tape one day and she was talking about ways to get in touch with your memories, childhood memories.

I, I don't think I'm unusual as a, a traumatized child that I don't have a lot of memories of my childhood. It, it's kind of a blank, kind of just blankness there. And so I was listening to her tape and one of her recommendations was think about what was your favorite book or your favorite movie or your favorite music when you were a small child.

And even when I first heard her say that, I was like, oh, I can never remember that, but I let that percolate, and suddenly what came to my mind is Thumbalina. When I was little, I had the book Thumbalina. It's not the same one I have now, I'm sure old outdated edition. But I went and I got a copy of this and I'll just read you the first.

Do I have time to read the first few lines? Okay. And I, after I had this big discovery, I, I started sharing this whole thing when I would, when I would do talks at adoption conferences. So I, and I would put the pictures up on the, on PowerPoint, but the story starts:

"There was once a woman who did so want to have a weed child of her own, but she had no idea where she was to get it from. She went off to an old witch and said to her, I would so dearly like to have a little child. Do, please tell me where I can find one."

That's how the story begins. Oh my, that was my favorite book. The social workers didn't like the old witch part. But anyway, and then the illustrations in this book just absolutely like captured this tiny little, like an alien.

I I, I, I know that alien is a term that comes up often in the narrat, narratives of adoptees, but you know, just feeling like so out of place in a dangerous world. And all of these illustrations, which again, are not exactly the ones that I would've seen as a child, but they would've been similar. You know, just this little, little fairy girl, this little flower size girl.

Just in all these dangerous situations.

Haley: You showed me one photo or one picture of, she's on this giant lily pad in.

Marcy: Yeah. With these big, ominous looking fish underneath the water.

Haley: They look like they're gonna eat her any second.

Marcy: Nibbling away at the stem of the, of the lily pad. I mean, I, I was like, this was such a revelation to me. It opened up a huge door to my inner life as a child. It was just such a blessing. So, you know, she's wonderful. All of her stuff is great. I recommend all of her stuff.

Haley: Amazing. And fellow adoptee?

Marcy: Yes. Yes, that's right. Oh, and, and, . I got a fan email from Dr. Estés about my article about the primal wound. That was like, wow, that was something else.

Haley: Oh my goodness.

Marcy: Yep. She just emailed me. I know.

Haley: Top 10 day of your life. Like what a memory.

Marcy: Yeah. Really.

Haley: Amazing. Thank you so much. I've just really enjoyed our conversation and your insights. Where can we follow you and connect with you online?

Marcy: My website is my name, MarcyAxness.com or another way to do it, it's easier to remember, ParentingForPeace.com, all all run together, goes to the same place.

Haley: Thank you, Marcy.

Marcy: My pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me.

Haley: Marcy's Social media links are also in the show notes for you. If you are listening on a podcast app on your phone. You can click on the cover of this episode and it'll bring you to a link for this episode's. Show notes on adoptees on.com where you can find all the show notes for every episode we've ever published.

Every amazing episode of Adoptees On is brought to you by the folks who support US Monthly on Patreon, who are the real heroes. Thank you. Patrons have been receiving podcast episodes called Adoptees Off Script every single Monday in their podcast apps automatically. And my main co-host, Carrie Cahill Mulligan and I have been doing a little mini-series on the abhorrent practices adoption agencies and pregnancy care centers have been using to coerce expected mothers to relinquish their babies. To this day.

If you need a little fire lid underneath you to get into activism, I think the two episodes we released on the 14th of November and the 21st this month are just the trick for you. So if you join us at AdopteesOn.com/community, you can hear My Spicy Takes About Brave Love.

Yuck. Thanks very much for listening. Let's talk again next. Where we are going to be celebrating a really exciting milestone for the podcast

229 Tiffany Henness

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/229


Haley: This podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing stated on it either by its hosts or any guests, is to be construed as psychological, medical, or legal advice.

You're listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. I'm Haley Radke. Today I get to introduce you to my friend Tiffany Henness. Tiffany shares her story of growing up in an open adoption and how it isn't the panacea that many hold it up to be. We discuss how she came to explore race, adoption and faith, and what shifted her perspectives on all of those topics.

Now, Tiffany is an adoption and racial literacy expert who writes, speaks, and leads others. To unpack the complexities of these experiences, we wrap up with some recommended resources, and as always, links to everything we'll be talking about today are on the website, adoptee design.com. Before we get started, I wanted to personally invite you to join our Patreon adoptee community today over on AdopteesOn.com/community, which helps support you and also the show to support more adoptees around the world.

We are gonna be talking about some faith things and Christianity today, though, if that's a hard topic for you. I just wanted to give you the heads up. Let's listen in.

(Upbeat Music)

Haley: I'm so pleased to welcome to adoptees on Tiffany Henness. Welcome Tiffany.

Tiffany: Woohoo. Thank you for having me. This is very exciting.

Haley: You're already celebrating. Me too. Me too. I'd love it if you would start and share a little of your story with us.

Tiffany: Well, we go back to the beginning. I was born on a Tuesday. Yeah, I, I am an infant domestic adoptee, a multiracial Asian and white.

My first mom is white American and western European American. And I was immediately adopted into a white family in Oregon. So if anyone has heard of Tillamook cheese Tillamook, Oregon or Tillamook Ice Cream, Tillamook, Oregon is where I was born. And this was in the eighties when there were more cows than people.

So, yeah, I, I also like to say that there were more different colors of cheeses than there were people in this town.

Haley: Okay.

Tiffany: So if that paints a picture. Okay. Okay. Yeah. . But yeah, I, you know, I had no contact or really information about my biological father, who I have since found out is Chinese Canadian.

But I grew up in this Christian home, evangelical Christian home. We did Sunday school. My, I think my adoptive mom was actually the Sunday school teacher. We did church every Sunday, youth group every Wednesday growing up. And we also played in the woods and in the forest of Oregon, which is beautiful.

If I can plug for, for Oregon's natural environment. It's very beautiful. But I had no Asian friends. I had... the only other Chinese Americans that I think I ever saw was like the one family who owned the Chinese food restaurant in town. You know, like there's, there's like a Chinese food restaurant in every town, right?

And there's this Chinese family that runs it, but you never see them unless you go to their restaurant. So they weren't even family friends necessarily. But we would go there and I would always order the cheeseburger because I did not know what Chinese American food was. I was not sure about this. So I'd order the cheeseburger on the kids menu.

But yeah, growing up I had two older siblings. They were the biological children of my adoptive parents. They were 10 and 12 years older too. So they were kind of more like built-in babysitters than they were siblings, you know what I mean? Like yeah, they're just their whole generation ahead of me. And so I was like the baby of the family.

And I would say that I was about 10 or 11 when I met my first mom for the first time. So this was an open adoption. My adoptive mother communicated with my first mother via letters. She, you know, they'd send photos of me to her. And then I think I was about four when we had that conversation, right?

Like, why, why do I look different? And my adoptive mother told me this story about how a mama cat adopted a puppy because the puppy's mom died. And so, of course, cats can't give birth to dogs. But the mama cat became like the mom to the puppy, and that's what adoption meant. So that's how I was told what it, what it meant.

But your mom didn't die. Right? Like she's alive.

But that was, that was the explanation I got for why I looked different and what adoption really meant. They always told me I was adopted, I just didn't actually know what it meant. And it was one of those things where a friend was like, you're not adopted. And so I went home and I was like, so what does that actually mean?

Cause I've been saying this to everybody, but I don't know what it means. I'm only four. Yeah. So that's when I was told, and at that point, my adoptive mother told my first mother, she knows now exactly what it means to be adopted and that you're out there. So pretty much from my fifth birthday forward, I got a letter in the mail, a birthday card from my first mom, and it had a picture of her when she was the same age that I was.

And that was an interesting thing because it gave me the sense for who she was, but it, it, it wasn't a picture of her as an adult. It was a picture of her as a child. And I think that the idea was that then I wouldn't see this picture of this other adult woman and be like, oh, she's my mom and you're not my mom or something.

I'm not really sure. But as a kid it was interesting to receive those birthday cards. My adoptive mother would keep the envelope from me so I wouldn't see the address, which is interesting because I wasn't even thinking about, you know, trying to like contact her myself. Like that wasn't even a thought in my mind.

But I do remember her being careful to remove the, the envelope and just give me the card with the photo in it. I remember being a little weirded out about seeing a photo of my first mom as a kid who had blonde curly hair and bright blue eyes, and I was like, how is. How is this someone I'm related to? I have black hair, brown eyes, Asian features...

so yeah, that was, that was my growing up. That was my, my version of what the spectrum of open adoptions can look like. And when I did finally meet her around 10 or 11, that was a very odd moment. In walks this tall blonde woman, who is just so different from me as a kid. All I could see is our differences.

And I think it's funny looking back at that now because when my first son was born, so this was like seven years ago, she came to visit and, and stayed for like a week. And now we're both adults. I'm a grown adult now. I know who I am a little bit better. I'm, I've grown into my adult features. My nose, my ears.

And that's the most time I've ever spent with her. She visited me for like 10 days and, and I could not stop seeing all of our similarities. Even though we have different hair color and eye color, but like the way we walk and the sound of our voice and, and the, and it was so weird to be in my thirties and finally seeing myself in my mother, who I had technically known for 20 years. And so yeah.

Haley: Well it, it's interesting to me that you were, were talking about the different, the mannerisms and things that were similar. And as you were talking, I was trying to picture you like, what would you look like if you had blonde hair and? Like, yeah, I don't know. I, I've never heard of someone getting pictures of their parent as a child in the birthday cards.

Tiffany: Mm.

Haley: I want Did you ever ask, like, was that your idea? Whose idea was that?

Tiffany: I didn't ask. My impression was that it was my adoptive mom's idea. So I do have some letters that my first mom had sent to my adoptive mom within the year after I was born. I have a few things like that that was given to me in like a keepsake from my adoptive mom.

And I didn't read those letters until probably four years ago. I didn't know they existed. I knew that they had communicated, but I didn't know how, and it was actually really crazy. Now, as a mom in my thirties, you know, to be reading this letter of my first mom, not long after she had given birth and left me and drove off and went home.

And then she went into the Marines, actually, she got married there met, met a Marine and they, the two of 'em got married and they had three kids, my, my half siblings. But to read her letters of her just asking how I was doing and, and trying to share about her life and what was going on, and... trying to put myself in that position of like, gosh, you know, all they communicated it seemed was through these letters.

And she's writing to ask and inquire about me. And as a mom now, I just can't imagine like how much emotions go into putting that letter together and sending it off. You know, but my, my impression from those letters, is that she's very much trying to follow the lead of my adoptive mom, that who was her senior by probably at least 15 years.

Right? So I can't do the math right now. It'll take too long. But yeah, she was quite a bit older and and my first mom was just barely 19, I think, when she had me. So I think that the idea for those photos was, you know, Tiffany knows now and we want to facilitate a connection between the two of you. But I think that there was some concern, you know, a lot of folks at the time, I remember my adoptive mom telling me, a lot of people told her, are you, aren't you worried that the first your, you know, her first mom's gonna come and, and try to get her back?

You know, like, so in the eighties, like there were these, these were some of the things she heard from the people in her community. And so I think she was trying to be cautious to not set me up to have that, oh, here's my mom. You're not my mom. I'm identifying with this adult woman who is my real mom. And I think she was trying to avoid some of that confusion or area of tension. But I, I'm not sure that that's how I would've responded, because looking back, thinking about myself, when I would get those letters, I felt very disconnected from this person and it felt like a, whatever emotions or feelings or reactions I was having, I, I couldn't even really access them. I think I kind of went numb and it was like an out of body experience to read this birthday card from somebody who, like, logically I knew that she was the one who had given birth to me, but I didn't know what to do with that information.

And so I just kind of read it and was like, huh. And that's interesting. And I looked at the photo and I was like, huh, that's interesting. And then I literally just went on with my birthday because I didn't know what to do with it. So I did nothing with it. I didn't ask further questions. I didn't stare at it and look at it all the time.

I wonder if it would've been different if my mom had been Asian and my dad had been white and I was seeing a picture of someone who looked like me. I don't know. Maybe I would've responded differently, but since she didn't look like me, or I didn't think she did, I just, I didn't feel a connection through a little kid wallet sized school photo from the, you know, sixties. Yeah. Sort of that brown sepia tone. Right.

Haley: Yeah. Yeah. That feels such, like, such a disconnect. I mean, in, in adulthood when any of us who are fortunate to have a reunion of some kind... getting those pictures of your parents as a kid, it's kind of like, oh, wow. Like, it's so interesting and fascinating and then you have this, but you're not really sure what to do with it.

Tiffany: Hmm.

Haley: And the other thing I think is so interesting is, I mean, I, I feel like I've almost exclusively, there's a few exceptions, but almost exclusively talked with adoptees who are from closed adoptions.

Tiffany: Oh.

Haley: Whether it's domestic or international, or transracial, some kind, but closed adoptions who don't have access to that. And do you think, I mean, and that's what's touted as like, well this is the like high, highest form of option is open adoption. And so I know you talked to tons of adoptees and you're very connected in adopteeland, but what do you think about that? Like, did it make a difference for you?

Like you don't know the other, you don't have the other experience of closed adoption, but

Tiffany: Right.

Haley: It sounds like it was perplexing as well.

Tiffany: Yeah. So I'm gonna say something that might be a little bit unpopular, but I don't think open adoption solves that many problems. It just makes the problems different. And, and that's just the truth of the matter. Here's something I, I'll often try to express or explain about open adoption is just because you have access to someone in some form or some capacity or knowledge about them, right? It doesn't make it make any more sense why you are given away. It doesn't make it make any more sense, you know, why they didn't want you.

Even, you know, when you get to hear their story from them firsthand, which to be honest with you, I have not yet heard that story firsthand from my first mom for all of the times we've talked and the fact that she visited me, that doesn't mean that we actually had open and honest conversations about any of this stuff. okay?

And, and I think that the thing that I experienced with open adoption was the assumption that, well, if she wants to know, she'll ask because we're right here and, right, and so that's what the adults are thinking. But I'm a, as a kid thinking, well, if they want me to know, they'll tell me cuz we're right here together.

And if they don't want me to know, they won't tell me and I shouldn't ask. And so there's this assumption too, that I had growing up, that I could always get the answers if I wanted to because I knew how to contact my first mom. And yet my experience has been that's not the case. Just, you know, just because your family, adoptive family, they told me, well, if you ever wanna search for your first father, like we will help you do that.

They would tell me that like, someday if you wanna do that. But as a kid someday meant, well, not today. So that means there's a point in the future when it's gonna be okay. And I don't know when that is and, but it's not, must not be today cuz that's not what someday means. And then the reality is that by the time I did kind of ask or expressed curiosity, it was so long ago and, oh, I don't really remember.

So like my first mom had said like, well it was just so long ago. And you know, I don't remember some of those details. And then you feel that pressure of not wanting to press them and pepper them with more questions. You know, it takes a lot of courage. It took a lot of courage to just ask the initial, can you tell me what happened?

And when the response is, well I don't remember all the details. You know, and they give you just a little bit and you're like, okay, then what do you remember? You know, that's what you wanna say, but then you're like, gosh, you know, we've had this whole history and pattern of not talking directly about it, of assuming that, you know, if they wanted to share, they would've told me and they didn't.

And there's a lot to overcome there. So, no, I, I think that being where I'm at today as an adult who is estranged from her adoptive family, who has actually reconnected with both sides of my biological family not fully with my, my father, although I've reached out to him, we'll just leave it at that.

But like, I do have a lot of the answers that I had of the questions I had had because of the people I've reconnected with and the things they've been able to share with me. But on the whole, I don't feel like I have had this lifelong experience of more confidence and resolution that I hear people talk about or peace about being adopted that I, I hear people say when they talk about the benefits of open adoption and, you know, everyone's experience is very different.

But I'm 38 today and I've gone through enough of my journey to, to be able to reflect more deeply about my adoption than I could 10 years ago. And as I do that, I think, yeah, no, it was open. It wasn't easy. It was, it didn't make sense to me. And on the whole, I, I don't think it, it was a very healthy experience.

And so I hate to say that and burst some people's bubbles, but I do know that there are other adoptees I've talked to who their version of an open adoption was, more candid, they got more intentional conversations to head- on address some things, and I could see how that could help them process stuff in a, in a better or healthier way.

But I feel like I have been clawing for answers, paying thousands of dollars, doing DNA tests, doing genealogy research, scouring Facebook and Instagram and LinkedIn and, you know, yellow page online listings for people, connected with people to find parts of my family, just like closed adoptees have had to, you know, has have had to do, on my father's side.

And on on my mother's side, who we had connection with, I have felt a lifelong experience of a strained reunion that there was a lot that wasn't said, a lot of opportunities that weren't taken, maybe fear on both sides. And so we don't have, I don't have like full peace or resolution there either.

I still have questions and I'm still hoping they'll be answered someday, and I'm still daily accepting the fact they may never be.

Haley: Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Tiffany: Oh, and I, I still can't, I still am trying to get my own adoption records. Oregon's adoption records became open the first state that opened their records to adoptees in 2005.

Right. Because of the activism of Bastard Nation adoptee, adoptees. And so that's where I was born. I'm born in this state who opened adoption case records to adoptees, and I've been having this big mental and emotional hurdle over the fact that when you apply to get those records, they ask you on the form what your reason is for asking for these records. And I can't, I can't.

Haley: No.

Tiffany: Like they ask you for a good reason and I'm like, I want to write something explicit and mean, but then if I do that on a government forum, I'm afraid that I'm gonna be put on a watch list or something. Like, these are my records. I don't need to give you a reason. They're just mine. Like, if I requested, like if I divorce my husband and later I wanted to request a record of that, you know, divorce, like court proceeding or whatever, cuz I, whatever.

Would I, is that on the form to request those records? Give me a good reason why you want these records of your, of your life. I don't think so. I don't think it is. I think you just fill out your information, you pay the fee and then it comes to you in the mail. But I have to get, I have to come up with the reason why, a good reason why they should give me these records.

And I just have sat there and stared at that and been angry as opposed to just filling in something and sending it off.

You know what I mean? Oh.

Haley: Absolutely. It is the perpetual infantilization of adopted people asking for permission with, to what should rightly be ours. Un friggin believable I mean, it is totally believable.

Tiffany: And they give you like two, like a line and a half to like enter your answer. And I'm like, if you wanna know my reason, I'm gonna give you like a 2000 word essay.

Haley: Okay. What would we pay to just see from the database what people have written in that space? Like I wanna see everybody's answers. Show me all of them.

Tiffany: Yes. Show me them all. Mm-hmm. . . Okay. I might need to get a job at the Oregon Health Department, like records, we can have access to see what people have said.

Haley: Right?

Tiffany: Oh, that is fascinating.

Haley: Like, I, I wonder what's the ex quote, unquote acceptable reasons. I imagine illness of some kind. So we need our medical, right? Yeah. I don't know. I dunno. Wow.

Tiffany: But that's the assumption in, in the way that they, they put that is that there is, there's a bad reason and therefore your application or request could be denied because what you wrote here wasn't an approvable answer.

I did reach out to an attorney who was involved in changing Oregon's laws on records, and I, I expressed my frustration with this question on this form, and, you know, she's an adoptive mom too. She's not an adoptee, but she just said, well, just, just write in there that you want them because they're yours.

And I'm like, yeah. But, the question shouldn't be there. Yeah. Because if that's the answer that's acceptable, why ask it, you know? Yeah. Anyway, so that's a, that's another interesting thing.

I've had this open adoption, I've lived this ideal scenario where I, I think some people think the ideal scenario is there was a young woman who wasn't ready to parent. And so there were parents who were happy to take in a child, and it was all arranged and set up for everybody's benefit. The win-win- win we hear about. And that was kind of like the life I lived, right? Like she was, my first mom was young. You know, I was told she loved me and that's why she gave me up and wasn't ready to parent.

And then I got to live with this family who was able to, you know, give me both a mom and a dad and a house and amenities and all these things and love me. And it was open. So I had contact and all of that stuff. And in the state that has open record laws, you know, so all of these things that are going for me on, from this one perspective.

And from this other perspective, I'm like, then why am I still paying so much for therapy? Like, why do I still struggle with all of this lifetime of, of, of trauma? And it feels like even more of a disenfranchised grief because when people hear I had an open adoption, or when they hear that it wasn't because, you know, of my first mom, like it wasn't out of living in bad conditions and being taken away by Child Protective Services or I didn't have those adverse childhood experiences that people think of when they think of like child, child welfare or CPS getting involved, right?

It's like, well, you were fresh, you were a newborn baby. You got handed over and you got the the good start, and, and I'm like, yeah. So if that is the case, and I'm still struggling so much, the older I get the more the, the weight of it feels heavier and heavier because the experience of adoption, you collect more and more experiences as you get older and older that show you how heavy it can be to carry.

I was like, so if I'm the best case scenario and I'm still struggling with this much , then that doesn't bode well.

Haley: There's something wrong in the system.

Tiffany: Yeah. There's, there's something that, that we're not acknowledging here. Yeah. I'm not crazy for feeling like, I don't think any of this was really Okay.

Haley: Mm-hmm.

Tiffany: You know?

Haley: Mm-hmm. Well, one of the things I know that we have in common is that you were raised in a family that was evangelical and you church attendance. Mm-hmm. was a big part of your life and I don't think my experience in that way was identical, but I definitely, church was a big part of our life and I went to youth group and, you know, was all in, we were all in Tiffany.

Tiffany: Oh yeah.

Haley: We were sold out for Jesus. Yeah.

Tiffany: Did you do mission trips to Mexico too?

Haley: No. We,

Tiffany: Or did you do mission trips to the U.S.? Are we your Southern neighbors? You, you came to evanglize?

Haley: No, actually the only mission trip I went on was within my province. We went to a city in southern Alberta, Calgary. Ever heard of the Calgary Stampede. And then we did work for some of the homeless shelters. And that was sort of the, so I grew up in a really tiny Mennonite community, so a lot of those kids had never been to a city before, so that was plenty to be exposed to.

Tiffany: Ooh, nice.

Haley: Yep. Anyway. So I'll speak for myself now. I remember feeling in, you know, all the way along, like, I need to adopt, I gotta pay this back. This is part of God's plan for my life. You know, there was a reason for me to be placed where I was and, and all of those kind of tropes. And as I got older, I mean, and, and I was complicit in that whole, I, I would tell anybody that asked me, like, I'm thankful to be adopted and like, going into the system to like adopt myself and, and all of those things.

And then when things, when I started, like, I know not everybody likes outta the fog terminology, but that resonates for me. But as I started like processing all of these things, and then looking at church stuff, for myself, I really started deconstructing both adoption stuff and then later all the church stuff.

Because when I saw how complicit the Evangelical church was in separating children from their biological families and connections and calling it good and calling it God's plan, when I see the pain that people experience ... could, does not compute.

Tiffany: Does not compute. Yes, that's right.

Haley: So how was that experience for you and d do you, does any of, was any of that from well, what I shared similar to your journey. I'd love to hear you talk a little bit about that.

Tiffany: Oh, sure. Yeah. I was actually, sorry if you hear my clicking. I was trying to find, that paper that was, I think it's called out of the fog and a model of adoptee awareness that JaeRan, Kim and Susan Branco and other adoptee scholars put out this year because I've been trying to read through that because it helps to give a framework or a model for understanding how we experience that coming outta the fog or coming into a consciousness of adoption, right.

A as a system and as a matter of social justice issues with social injustice.

Haley: It's called adoptee Critical Consciousness.

Tiffany: Mm, yes.

Haley: And I definitely wanna have some of them on at some point to talk us through that. So we'll, we'll link to that in the show notes, so

Tiffany: oh, great.

Haley: You can good find that. Okay.

Tiffany: Yeah, they self-published it online, so it would be available for anybody to get it and not put behind a scholarly journal, you know, paywall. And I appreciate that so very much. And it's great to see adoptees like rethinking how, how we experience this, especially for trans racial adoptees, because our experience of adoption and injustice and racial injustice go hand in hand.

And so, so yeah, let, that kind of ties back to my experience growing up. I definitely did not think critically about my adoption at all. In fact, I saw it as something that happened the day I was born, and then the rest of my life just went on without being impacted by it. That's how little aware I was about my own reality that I was experiencing.

And it's the same for my racial identity. I had didn't have one. I, you know, would joke about being a banana, you know, yellow on the outside, white on the inside. And I had the same racial ignorance and like white, white cultural perspective of my family. So because of that I also grew up thinking that I was totally gonna adopt someday because that is just like the best thing to do.

Cuz my parents did it, my parents are so great, and what a great way to show God's love. And I went to a Christian liberal arts university, like I was on track for staying in the Christian bubble for the rest of my life because that was where it was at, right? The world, we are not of it. We're gonna do our own little Christian thing over here and just be so holy and pure.

So there was this, there were cracks that were beginning to form, right? And usually that happens when you leave the home of the adoptive parents. So it didn't all happen at once. For me. There was like the time period in college where I was actually now engaging with the world who didn't know me as being a, a kid adopted by white parents, right?

So I was engaging in the world as this multiracial Asian. Some people think I'm ethnically ambiguous, you know, some people are like, no, you're definitely Chinese. And others are like, what are you like are you like like Alaskan or...? It's so funny. I get the what are you question a lot. Multiracial people get a lot.

But I realized that that was something I had to answer for more regularly out in the world where people didn't know, oh, you're Tiffany, the one who was adopted by, you know, so and so.

And then I studied abroad in China. So that was actually a big eye-opener for me. Looking back, I realized I studied abroad in China because I was trying to connect to my Chinese roots. I, it's a form of searching and I, at the time, I, I recognized that I wanted to know a more about Chinese culture because I was part Chinese, but I didn't recognize that I had this bias against Chinese Americans as if they weren't the real Chinese people. So I didn't wanna go to like LA Chinatown because they're not like real Chinese. They live in America. I wanted to go to the motherland, to the source. China, cuz that's where the real Chinese people are. Oh my gosh. I was, I was so blind.

Anyways, but I had that experience. I studied abroad there for a, a semester and after college I even went back there to teach English. And I lived in China for seven months.

And all I found out was that number one, I am not, I'm American, I'm American. And that my Chinese friends that I made while I was there, they all wanted to know where my hometown was. I found out that that's really important, knowing your, where, what village your ancestors came from, that places you in the story of being Chinese.

And so I couldn't say that. I had no idea. And that's when I began wanting to find that out. And that was a safer thing for me to say, I wanna know where my Chinese ancestors came from in China. It was safer for me to say that than to say I wanna find my dad. That was too scary. But they were the same thing really, to be honest.

I just couldn't say it that way. So starting in college, I became obsessed with this idea of finding my ancestral hometown in China so that I could tell my kids someday so that I could know how to locate my, my lineage in history. And never curious about my, you know, ancestral hometown in western Europe from my mom's side, of course, because, she was the side I had access to and assumed I knew I, I was connected to and knew about. But my Chinese side I didn't.

I also, that's began my, like deconstruction of Western Christianity was when I went to China in college. I met friends there who were Christian. And they went to the Chinese Christian, the three self Chinese Christian Church. It's like the, the PRC's approved Christian religion . And I grew up hearing about the underground, the underground church in China that has to meet, in my head, literally underground, which is not true, but like in my head, I imagine people like in caves with candles and stuff. Cuz you know, I was like 12 when I first heard about it.

And, and that was the real church and those, you know. And, but then I went there and I went to Sunday service in this beautiful church building in the open. People are pouring off the streets in there. And I sat down with the Bible that's printed there and my friend who attended this church and I was looking at my English Bible and I'm looking at their Chinese Bible. And I'm struggling to find where they have hidden the real message of Christ in that Bible. That they're allowed to have. I'm like okay, my Chinese isn't great, but from what my friend is reading to me and what I'm, what I'm piecing together here, they, they do have access to the gospel. So, so they're not, they're not all underground everywhere in China?

Like these, it's a bright Sunday morning, everyone can see hundreds of people pouring into this church. And that made me start questioning what I was told about God and the church and the world. And I came back after that study abroad experience, pretty aware that America had a version of Christianity that put America first as if we were the superior type of people.

I didn't recognize it as whiteness or, or white supremacy. I recognized it as American exceptionalism. And from that point forward, I had a strong inclination to think that our American worldview, wasn't "it". It was one worldview, but there is other ways other cultures have access to God and Christ in ways that we don't understand. And that's okay and that's good. And, but I still totally about adoption and my racial didn't have a racial identity, hadn't developed a critical consciousness of adoption that happened when I had my first kid. And it was about that time, you know, I, I had, I had went off to college, I got a job, I moved out.

I wasn't around my adoptive family a whole lot. And, and things changed, you know. Their path went one way, my path went another way. And by the time my first kid came, I was pregnant with my first kid. That's when I realized that I was grieving my own in initial separation. That's when I first discovered stuff about the primal wound and was like, okay, that is explaining what's going on in a way that I never would've thought.

And then my, 18 months later, after my son was born, I donated part of my liver to my adopted second cousin. And because of that, I had to actually live with my adopted aunt and my adopted mom for like a full month in recovery and like be in their life daily.

And this is the time when Colin Kaepernick is kneeling. Donald Trump is running for president. And I saw them in a light I never really realized before. And Colin Kaepernick is an interesting one for me because to me, even though he's black, right? He was raised by a white family, right? And so when they would yell at the TV screen because he was kneeling or because they were talking about him, and they would say things like, you're not really black, or you don't really know what, you know what black people think? Cuz you were raised by a white family. It was as if they were saying it to me and it it made me realize, oh, they don't, they don't see me as Asian. And that was a huge eye-opener for me and it sent me on this journey to find a way to make sense of how my racial identity fit into this, how my adoption fit into this.

And it really actually sent me into a dark place. Let's not describe the journey as if it was like this fun, personal exploration, you know. This was a this was a spiraling, descent into chaos and madness and my desire to literally just wanna burn it all down. And so let's, let's describe it accurately.

I was angry. I was, you know, ready to give up God. I was ready to give up, like, literally, but I, I, I didn't know. I still didn't know how to make sense of it, cuz I still hadn't learned a lot about social injustice, racism, adoption. I just know that this was not right. This didn't feel right and I was mad.

I, I think the, the one thing that helped me the most was finding this organization called Be the Bridge. So Be the Bridge was started by Latasha Morrison, a black Christian leader who was in Texas at the time and had, had started uh, a group of, of her friends from her church, multiracial group to sit down and to start having discussions about, about race and racism and what was going on. And over the years, developed a small group curriculum. Got on Facebook so that people could interact and, and it just ballooned, you know, into a lot of resources being curated. A lot of volunteers coming together to develop more curriculum for these small groups that were starting to pop up all over the U.S. following her discussion format, you know. And now it's a full blown nonprofit with staff. And I'm a, I'm a contractor who works for them for discussing race and adoption stuff. And and it's great.

But at the time when I first found them, it was the only space that was Christian and was being honest about race. And it was the only person, the only group of people, the only Facebook group where when someone shared their experience they were treated like, a person of color, they were treated like an expert in their own experience. They were honored. To say, okay, they're telling us what they experienced with this person and how, how it went down. And they're naming it as racism. And we honor that and we hear you.

And if a white person would jump on that comment thread and try to gaslight, they would get lovingly shut down. And say, no, you need to sit with the uncomfortable thing that this person of color is telling you and understand that they are an expert of their own experience. And so I saw that first with race before I saw it with adoption.

But very quickly I realized that there was people in this group who were in the world of transracial adoption. And to, to be honest, that's when I first heard the word transracial adoption. I didn't even know , that there was a name for what my experience of adoption was until I went into that group, and then I just, I just like I read every single post that that group has ever had in there since like 2015.

Every single conversation, every single, they had resources that they would link to NPR articles, podcasts, books. I spent three months just like a drinking from a fire hose. And I really think it saved me and it saved my faith to say, wait a minute, the American exceptionalism, the Christian nationalism, the white supremacy, and even the adoption injustice that's all crashing down on you and it's exposing all of the lies that you believed that you didn't realize were not true...

That doesn't mean you have to throw everything away and burn it down. I mean, some of it you can definitely burn down, but, it doesn't mean that there is no truth. You know? And that doesn't mean that you just throw up your hands and give up. There is another way to look at this. There's another way to understand God in all of this chaos that does honor the truth of your experience and your pain and that that is real.

And that was huge for me. So I started a group, a Be The Bridge group in my area, and I just tried to educate myself as much as possible. And so then that's when I realized I need to develop my Chinese American racial/ ethnic identity. I need to have a healthier perspective of myself because you have internalized whiteness and you have hated your Asian and Chinese self and you didn't realize that's what you were doing.

So give yourself grace, but let's, let's fix this cuz this is not healthy. And so, you know, that was like 7, 6, 7 years ago. So the racial awareness and the adoption awareness, a critical consciousness on both really happened at the same time for me. And it was dove tailing off of my spiritual Christian deconstruction that was a process had already started, but didn't really get going until the three of those things combined, like, three powerful forces exploding together at once. Religion, race, adoption (exploding noise). And I feel like , you know, I've been living in that combustion of of awareness and learning and educating, and it's been like a five, six year journey I think, at this point.

So, yeah. Long answer, but there you go. There you have it.

Haley: Well it's one of those things that once you see it, you can't unsee it? Nope. And you can't hide from it anymore. Yeah. Oh, well I actually first like really personally connected with you last year when you put out the we're gonna talk a little bit about this soon, but journeying home.

Tiffany: Mm-hmm.

Haley: The advent readings for adoptees, deconstructing their faith, and I was like right in the midst of deconstructing, because I'm sure I've shared here before, but I'll just very briefly. At one point, a number of years ago, I started an adoptee support group in my city. I asked my church if I could host it there, where they host other meetings.

Tiffany: Mm-hmm.

Haley: Like recovery meetings and other, they have other community groups there. And we had just finished building, being a big construction project. And, you know, one of the main things they were saying is like, we wanna be welcoming to the community and like community functions and da da, da. Right. The, you know, you, you know exactly what I'm saying.

Tiffany: Mm-hmm.

Haley: And so I, I, you know, emailed and was like, oh yeah, can I host my adoptee support group here? Cuz I was hosting it in my home and you know, that's fine until it's not , so.

Tiffany: Mm-hmm. Oh yeah.

Haley: Yeah. And I had to have a series of meetings with a couple of pa different pastors. They had printed off some of my Facebook posts that were critical of adoption, showed them to me, and in the end they declined to host my adoptee support group.

And one of the reasons I was given was because of my Facebook posts and because there's so many adoptive parents that go to our church that we wouldn't wanna offend them. And so my personal journey on that front was, this is a church I had been going to for almost 20 years. I had worked at that church, I have volunteered a lifetime at that church,

Tiffany: Right.

Haley: And to have my experience shut down so profoundly was now I'm coming to recognize it as a spiritual.

Tiffany: Mm-hmm.

Haley: And so that's what has led me...

Tiffany: Yes. Say that again.

Haley: Yeah. That's what's led me to deconstruction. So when I was reading these devotionals from fellow adoptees, you and, and several others, I was like, oh, this is it. right?

Tiffany: Yes.

Haley: It's so painful when it, you know I know not all of my listeners are people that have identified with any faith tradition. But if you, if you have like, it can just be like this intrinsic part of yourself to, so to have that as something that is injuring you , is just a real mind F.

Tiffany: Mm.

Haley: And it's so hard. And when you were talking about that chaos, that downward, like spiral, like Yes, I relate to that part of it.

Tiffany: Mm-hmm.

Haley: So, yeah, it's so deeply personal and to know there's other adoptees that are walking that and unpacking those things together is like really helpful for me, you know? So...

Tiffany: Thank you for sharing that. I'm, I'm so what is the right word? It's hard to say that like, I'm glad that we're all experiencing this hard thing so that we can help each other. Cause that's not, that's not the reality. I'm like, I'm glad to have connected with you and I'm, I'm glad to be along this journey with you, to connect with you, to be on this journey with you.

I was speaking with Mark Anthony (correction: matthew anthony) who contributed to this wonderful poems, to this advent reading that you're talking about, Journeying Home, I was on the phone with him the other day and I said the same thing. I was like, you know, I'm really glad I've connected with you for as awful as adoption has been for us, you know, I'm just really honored to know you and. And I hope he's okay with me sharing this, but he was like, yeah. But that being said, like if I could choose between like having not been adopted or like knowing you, I would totally choose having not been adopted. I was like, I, yes, no, I get you.

Haley: Agreed.

Tiffany: And I, no offense taken, no offense taken. But, but yeah, I experienced the same thing with my church that I had been attend. I was gonna start that Be the Bridge group where we were gonna talk about race and we had to meet with the church elders, my co-facilitator and I. They brought up my Facebook post. They said that they didn't think I would be capable of leading such a group and that, you know, it, it wasn't just the group that we wanted to do and host it at the church and they denied us the use of the church.

It was also, I was trying to tell them our church needs to have this conversation because there are people in this church who are not acting right. They're acting white. And we need to talk about it. And they were like, I just, you know, I don't really think we know enough about this. And, and you know, they don't actually like, have women in leadership anyway, so there's a whole other thing going on there too.

But I walked away from that meeting and my co-facilitator was like, are you okay? Like they really just totally discredited you as being someone like capable of doing this work. And I was like, I mean, I'm not surprised, but it took a long time to like recover from taking that step, being vulnerable with your faith leaders, your spiritual leaders, the one who are supposed to be guiding you in your faith journey.

Like they see themselves as ordained by God to be guiding other people in their faith journeys. And when you come to them with something that is so raw and it's, and you're just, you're trying to create a space for a conversation, you're not trying to, you know, and they react to you that way. I mean, that, that to me, it took me a few months, but that to me was what made me realize church is not safe.

At least not these churches led by white men. But like, I, I need, I need for my own healing journey to not continue exposing myself to this type of treatment and, and posture. And I need to spend more time finding people who can help. And people I, who are, are going to listen and offer some Christian Biblical like wisdom not from the perspective of, of like white American Christianity, but from the perspective of, you know, people who understand historical oppression, marginalization, historical you know, social injustice, economic injustice.

And so that was one of the things where this advent reading, I was struggling for a few years. Advent would come around, my friends would be doing their devotionals, sharing their verses, or this website or this blog, or this podcast. and Advent wasn't a huge practice for my family growing up. Like we didn't have a lot of traditions necessarily around it, but I always felt like it was a special time to be reflective and meditative.

And, and I remember my dad reading the nativity story, my adoptive dad reading it one Christmas Eve. He, we rarely did that, but the one time he did like, I remember it cuz it felt special. And here I was going through this deconstruction journey, which, you know, deconstructing means different things to different people.

So for me, I just wanna share, like, I used to have this really tight hold on what my core beliefs were. They were clearly defined. I was fully committed to them. And deconstructing has just been the process of letting go of that tight grip, holding my beliefs with an open palm, so that can get a better look at them, and being being okay with letting go of them, with questioning them, taking them apart, seeing if they go back together or not. If they don't, then maybe they, they aren't something I should put so much faith and hope in. And, and being okay if the, the questions I have about my beliefs don't have immediate or satisfying answers.

And that's, that's just what it means to me. And so Christmas would come around and it, it felt really hard to engage in this season that used to contain hope and joy. And it used to contain a sense of connectedness in my spirit. And every devotion I would read was so tone deaf to, you know, about race and about adoption, you know. Lord forbid, a Christian author says that God adopted us. I close the book right away and, and I like freak out. Right. I can't, I can't.

Haley: Let me just link in the show now. It's the episode I did with Dr. Erin Heim. Yeah. Aaron Heim Yes. About adoption in the bible because Yeah.

Tiffany: So if you, if you listening and you haven't wa listened to Dr. Erin Heim's, just pause this one. Go listen to that one and come back and finish this one. Yeah. so yes, like I, there was a part of me that was like, no, like they can't take this from me. That is, that's not fair that because of the racial stuff, because of the adoption injustice stuff, that it's already taken so much from me. And and I know that there are many Christians of color who are great, like they do a good job of articulating how Christ is for the oppressed and not for the power structures, you know, and, and I've found so much like healing from reading their work. And so I thought it's, I wanna write an advent themed prayers or reflections or something that takes into consideration my viewpoint as a transracial adoptee and my experience as a transracial adoptee.

And so for a couple years I would just post those things on my Instagram and they were just little carousel posts. I would make them in Canva like we do, and we just post them up and people swipe through and, and they got really good responses from other adoptees and even a few adoptive parents who wanted to find a better way to talk about their faith with their, with their adopted kids than the, the typical message that is harmful, you know?

And so after doing that for a couple years, I was like, I'm not the only one though. I know. Bonita and I know Anthony and Matthew, Matthew Anthony, who also are right, great writers who also have thought deeply about their faith, their racial identity, their adoption experience. So I got us all together last year and I said, here's some of the things I've already written.

But what if we all wrote on this theme and made a booklet, like, I don't wanna call it a devotional, cuz that word comes with contextual associations. We just called it a, you know, reading. Advent readings, it's a booklet. And I said like, what do you think? And they were, they were game, you know, they, they were excited about the project.

We got it together and we self-published this digital advent booklet and I could not be, you know, more proud of it. A year later, reading it again, advents coming up again and I was like, guys, we're gonna, we're gonna make it for sale again online. I had taken it down cuz it costs money to keep things up and for sale on a site in using, you know, the, I used like a, an online e-commerce thing and it had a high monthly, monthly like fee to just keep it available.

And I was like, I can't actually afford to just have this up indefinitely. So we'll just have it up for advent season and then we'll take it down and see how we feel about it. And I, I realize now like, okay, it's time to put it back up again and, and if we can keep it up so that people can continue to access it, we, we will try to do that this year.

But last year I wasn't ready to make that commitment. So and this year Matthew Anthony's written another poem to be added, so there will be an additional entry that is new and I'm excited about that. But it really just talks about a way to look at advent and a way to look at the stories that, and themes that go along with advent like from the lens of, of adoptees.

And so I've enjoyed reading through it again as we get ready to republish it. It's, it's been, you know how sometimes you, you read something you wrote a while ago and you're like, oh no. This is one of those times where I'm like, yeah, no. Like I, I am still really, I'm still, I still get a lot out of reading what I wrote last year and I'm, I'm glad that this is something we, we've preserved , and it's not just gonna fall into the Instagram hole and never be seen again. Like, like my original posts all have.

Haley: I scrolled way back on your Instagram today in preparation for our talk.

Tiffany: Oh, no. Like how far back? Like if you go, oh no. If you go all the way back to you, you'll see my CrossFit days.

Haley: You're a very fit, fit person.

Tiffany: I was. Okay. But you know, you're, you're raised in sort of a cultish religion....

Haley: Discipline. Discipline is next to godliness. Is that a verse? Right?

Tiffany: I thought that was cleanliness. No, I...

Haley: oh sorry. No discipline. Mm-hmm. Okay. , I'm a bad Christian. I don't know.

Tiffany: I'm just making stuff up.

Haley: I'm a bad Christian too. Okay. So we, we are really, we've transitioned already, but we're talking about what I'm gonna recommend as our resources today and I, there's a little section here that you write in the introduction.

This advent theme booklet is by adoptees and for adoptees, dear Souls who have wrestled with decolonizing and deconstructing our faith and the role adoption is played in our lives. Disclosure. We are still very much on that journey. We share our hearts in this moment while anticipating our perspectives will continue to evolve. And I really appreciated that thought. And you know, I was rereading some of it today as well, and it's sort of like, it doesn't really matter where you are on your faith journey. It's a call to just processing things and thinking about things and, and some things we... that are painful and we kind of set to the side. So if it's something that you are like, oh, maybe I could process a few of those things this year. You know, it's like an invitation in to thinking about those things.

And so I really appreciate that. And the, the wisdom that your writers have brought is so profound. Some of the observations, they feel really insightful and also familiar. And it's like this beautiful kind of meshing together of that for me. So I really appreciated it and it brought me to you so....

Tiffany: That's right. Yeah.

Haley: Yeah. And tiffany and I actually worked through, I don't know, spiritual direction together this year. And that was really powerful for me to like, sit in like, what does it look like? Do I go to church anymore? Do I go to that church anymore? Is the apology I received enough?

Spoiler alert, it's not enough to overcome spiritual trauma, just to have someone say to you, oh yeah, we did the wrong thing. Sorry about that. Like, it's, it's not enough.

Tiffany: Right? Nope.

Haley: So, unpacking those things and unpacking, if you were raised in a Christian home and hearing about how this experience of ripping you away from your original family, this was God's plan.

Tiffany: Mm-hmm.

Haley: Unpacking that with fellow adoptees who've heard the same is really powerful. So thank you and thank you to your other writers and contributors. And the artwork is just beautiful. Beautiful.

Tiffany: Yeah. Artwork by Natalie Boone, also an adoptee. And I, I am hopeful that they'll be recording just a little bit of their thoughts and sending those along. But no, I just, I wanna speak to what you said about the apology. With Be The Bridge, it helped because they have this framework for what reconciliation really does look like. And a confession saying what we did was wrong. And an apology, I'm sorry, do you forgive me? Forgiveness and confession is like halfway through the journey of reconciliation.

It's not the end. And so we do need to go through those steps, but that doesn't repair the relationship. Confession and forgiveness does not repair what's been broken. It doesn't restore to what formerly was or reconcile what has been divided. And that was a helpful framework I got from Be the Bridge was to recognize that while confession and forgiveness might be a place that I've come to in certain situations or relationships with people with, with the church or certain church people, you know, I was raised to see forgiveness as, confession and forgiveness as being the end result, like the end goal, and then automatically things would be repaired.

But , it's, it's the initial step in the reparation process and what they do after that to decide to change how they interact and what they say and what they do to repair- that is a process that those who have caused harm have to go through and prove that they're trustworthy again, prove that they're able to be in community with you again.

And if they just stop at confession and asking for forgiveness and they don't go further, then I don't think it's actually genuine. Cuz true reconciliation means that someone is gonna work through that ongoing process of repairing the harm or, or restoring what you know, what they broke. And if they don't do that, then it's not enough.

And you don't need to stay in relationship or stay at that church or, or pretend that just the confession and forgiveness part was all that needed to happen. It's not. That's huge.

Haley: And when the injured party is the one that is coming to you saying you should apologize, it's like Okay. And there's nothing after that. Yeah. I mean we could talk about that a whole nother thing, but I appreciate so much you saying that cuz I, I mean it applies to so many situations for sure.

It does. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Oh, you're so wise, Tiffany. Okay. Now you briefly mentioned it, but what do you wanna recommend to us today

Tiffany: When it comes to like racial literacy and education, whether it's faith-based or values-based, Be The Bridge has really great resources that have done a great job helping me as a transracial adoptee, like unpack the internalized whiteness that I have struggled with. And it's also one of the only communities where there's the, Be the Bridge BIPOC community has a, a separate Facebook group for Be the Bridge BIPOC Care Group, was is what they call it.

And it's really hard as a transracial adoptee to go into a space with other people of color and not feel like an in total fraud and imposter. Right. And feel like my experiences are totally invalidated cuz I was raised by a white family. And yet the, the Be The Bridge because of the way they do ra, racial reconciliation and the way that they posture themselves in these conversation, it's been the most welcoming place and the most, like I've been given the most space and the most honor to say this has been my experience.

And even though it's wildly different from most other people, because I was transracially adopted, I'm not like shut down or gaslighted, I'm not, you know, I'm seen as an expert in my own experience of transracial adoption and, and it's been very healing because of that. And so I recommend, they have resources for, white people have resources for BIPOC.

They have resources for just general like learning about racial literacy. They have professional development trainings for organizations. And one of the things that I've been able to do with them, and we're still working on it, it's gonna come out next year, but it's called Bridge Building and Transracial Adoption.

It's an online e-course and it's different because it's not written to tell adoptive parents how to parent children of color. Most, most courses you find about transracial adoption are oriented toward adoptive parents and trying to teach them how to cause as little harm as possible, and be as as helpful as possible.

This is more of a course, we're sort of orienting it more as racial literacy education and how to understand trans racial adoption in systems of injustice so that all people, whether you are an adoptee, an adoptive parent, a counselor, a teacher can, can get a handle on, on some of these dynamics of transracial adoption, from the perspective of understanding systemic racism, understanding how whiteness works in our systems of child welfare and then how that does impact kids on the individual level and helps us see what it is they need on an individual level in, in a clearer way.

But the goal is to, is to really help all racial bridge builders understand where transracial adoption fits in our pursuit of justice and our pursuit of equity in our pursuit, and how we go about being bridge builders. So that's something I'm really, really excited about because it's a conversation that I'm dying to have with anybody who will listen. It's a more bigger picture look at things. And when that does come out, I'm hopeful that we will get a lot of different people around the adoption constellation to, to go through that and, and to, to see how it helps them better understand where adoption fits into this bigger systems of like race and, and things like that.

And, and I, I think that that's a piece that has been missing. Let me put it this way. It's the piece of information I was looking for when I started putting the pieces together about race and adoption and faith. And all I could find was stuff written for adoptive parents, and how to raise a kid.

And I was like, but nobody's telling me how adoption fits into these bigger systems. And, and now I know a lot of adoptees are talking about this, but it's, it's still something, I think that it's still a conversation that gets dismissed as a niche topic, niche topic that you know, you only really need to know about it if, if it directly impacts you.

And I'm trying to be over here being like, no, our collective liberation is tied up with each other. We all need to learn about each other's forms of oppression and marginalization and historical exclusion. And that includes adoption. So.

Haley: As you were talking about it, I was like, oh yeah. , I could bring this to the teachers at my school and you know, there's lots of, you know, kids in the class that are adopted and to have teachers know like, okay, maybe we shouldn't do the family tree project because it Right. Excludes the kids that, or makes them be imposters, you know? Like pretending your adoptive parents are like your direct line and uh. Yeah. Just one little example of how it all continues to perpetuate everywhere.

Tiffany: It does. Yeah, it does. Yes.

Haley: Tiffany, that work is amazing and I know how much work behind the scenes that you've put into that course and I know it's gonna be fantastic. So tell us a couple things. Where can we get Journeying Home, the advent readings for adoptees deconstructing their faith, and where can we follow you and make sure we are keeping up with all those updates?

Tiffany: Awesome. Okay, so Journeying Home is available on, there's links to it on either of my websites. I have two websites; CallingInTheWilderness.com that's more of my personal blog. And then AdoptionLiteracy.com is more the website for my professional side where I do some speaking, where I, where I talk about other ways that I can collaborate with people and they can hire me.

And then social media. I'm on Facebook as Tiffany Henness and then on Instagram as Coach Henness, because back in the day I used to be a personal trainer and running coach, and that's when I created my Instagram. So I'm Coach Henness on Instagram.

Haley: And now you're an adoption literacy coach. So you're just like,

Tiffany: Oh yeah, yeah, good spin. Good spin. I like that. I like that.

So yeah, so those are the places where I will post about personal thoughts and or where I'm speaking next or what I've participated in, or even this advent booklet and reading will be posting it about it there. So come find me.

Haley: Wonderful. Thank you so much. I so appreciate being connected with you and I really, I learned a lot more about you today.

Tiffany: Yeah. Well, thank you. It's, it's awesome to get to be on a podcast that I've listened to and enjoyed and benefited from so much. The work that you've done with this is, and the impact is just immeasurable.

Haley: Thank you.

[ (Upbeat Music)

If you'd like to hear some samples of Journeying Home and from one of the artists who worked on the project, I'd encourage you to listen all the way to the end of the show where we'll share some clips with you from matthew anthony, Natalie Boone, and Bonita Croyle in that order.

I feel really thankful that at this time Tiffany is one of the fabulous folks working behind the scenes on this very podcast, so if things are running smoothly and show notes are in the right place, you know, she's been in there keeping me on track.

It's only because of people like my Patreon supporters that this show can keep going and is sustained to hire and pay folks to work on it. So thank you so, so much to those of you who do and you are making the show free and available to everyone, and especially those people that aren't able to support it financially.

So I appreciate you so much. If you are able to and you wanna join us, you can go to AdopteesOn.com/community to see all the benefits and extras you get for supporting the show. Which also includes another weekly podcast, book club adoptees, off-script parties, and Facebook group for different levels of support.

So you can check that out, AdopteesOn.com/community. Okay. Thanks so much for listening. Let's talk again next Friday.

(Excerpts from JourneyingHome)

Haley: (Voice of matthew anthony) Psalm of the Aware adoptee. My adopted body bears the brunt of abandonment and dispossession. This means that home has been cleaved from my imagination, like a toy from the hand of a misbehaving child. And I have not believed I am worthy of having one. I have called my body and being problem and reason for rejection repeatedly, God of family.

Remind me that before I was a daughter or son, brother or sister, or to any earthly kin, I was first and most gloriously a direct descendant of divinity. My lineage is love, and though my birth certificate may misname my sire, I have seen that this body is god's because I look just like my father. I both siren and sailor upon your living waters, calling to myself, falling so precariously in love with myself, that I would shipwreck and be marooned with the self.

I despise the self. I blame long enough to know I am worthy of being at home and whole and held in myself. And if there is room for me, then there is also room for love. Love. Remind me that you are always at home within me, and there is nothing I can do to evict you. Ours is not a reunion because you have never left.

I have only ever become more aware of your presence. matthew anthony.

(Voice of Natalie Boone) Hi, I'm Natalie Boone. I'm an adoptee and artist. I created the artwork for Journeying Home. I loved being a part of this collaboration because I feel like this advent book fills a need that hasn't been met for the adoptee community.

As adoptees, we deal with a lot of complex issues and emotions. Sometimes reconciling those with our faith can be hard or confusing. I hope that our book helps other adoptees feel like they are not alone, that their questions are valid, and that through it all, God cares about them. I hope that my artwork brings a sense of calm and peace as they read through the book, and most of all, I hope they feel loved.

(Voice of Bonita Rockingham) Our liberating God. The scripture is from Isaiah chapter nine, verses two and six and seven. The people who walked in darkness have seen a great light. Those who lived in a land of deep darkness on them, light has shined. For a child has been born for us, a son given to us. Authority rests upon his shoulders, and he is named wonderful counselor, mighty God, everlasting Father, prince of peace. Great will be his authority and there shall be endless peace for the throne of David and his kingdom. He will establish an uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time onward and forevermore. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will do this.

For reflection.

As we approach the birth of Christ, we are reminded of a liberating God that calls us by name, stands with us in solidarity, and speaks peace into our future. As adoptees, we sometimes carry experiences with advent that are complicated and nuanced. Some of us might even carry experiences with Advent and the institutional church that have been violent and deeply painful and have necessitated boundaries, which include leaving and or reevaluating our relationship with the church.

What does it mean to hold space for advent as adoptees carrying pain? What does it look like to engage in Advent with our trauma and our deconstruction? What if it's holy? Advent is the story of liberation and justice embodied. Pay attention to what your body is saying in this holy night. Your questions do not denote your worth.

Your trauma does not denote your worth. Your pain does not denote your worth. You and your body are worthy and named. We are promised this and for closing a breath prayer. Inhale in this holy waiting and exhale. I am enough.

228 Grace Kelly

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/228


Haley Radke: This podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing stated on it, either by its hosts or any guests, is to be construed as psychological, medical, or legal advice.

You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. I'm Haley Radke. I have to admit to you, this is the first featured guest I've had on the show who is not adopted. Do we pause for effect here? I'm excited to introduce you to Grace Kelly, who has successfully had her adoption reversed in Australia, and now works to help other Australians annul their adoptions.

We discussed the impact having her adoption reversed has had on her personal healing journey, and Grace also shares about the importance of our language and why she doesn't use the term adoptee. We wrap up with some recommended resources, and as always, links to everything we'll be talking about today are on the website, adopteeson.com.

Before we get started, I wanted to invite you to join our Patreon adoptee community today over on adopteeson.com/community, which helps support you and also the show to support more adoptees around the world. Here is my conversation with Grace Kelly. Let's listen in.

I'm so pleased to welcome to Adoptees On: Grace Kelly. Welcome, Grace.

Grace Kelly: Thank you, Haley. It's lovely to be here.

Haley Radke: I would love it if you would start by sharing some of your story with us.

Grace Kelly: Okay, well obviously, I'm Australian. You can tell that from the accent.

Haley Radke: It's delicious. I just gotta say.

Grace Kelly: I was born in 1969 in Melbourne, Australia, and I was adopted at birth. And I was adopted by missionaries, and grew up in Papua New Guinea. Came back to Australia when I was–I think I was about 10. The family came back. There was one other child adopted a few years after I was adopted (a boy), and we came back to Australia and then in– When I was about 16, the adoption laws changed and we were able to contact our families.

And so I put my name down and my mother (she was in Queensland at the time), she put her name down, and we had reunion just before my year 12 exams (which was probably really stupid in hindsight, because it was very upsetting). And then, I mean, then I just, you know, muddled on with the situation of having, sort of two families and not fitting into either. And not feeling that I belonged anywhere.

And then I sort of muddled on through life, and I guess did my best and had very, very complicated and difficult relationships with everybody involved in the adoption. And then when I was– oh gosh, four years ago, and I can't remember how I found out... I was just looking on the Internet and I found out that I could apply to the court to have my adoption reversed.

And I would have to say it was the happiest day of my life and it's a hard thing to say, because not everybody feels this way. And I'm not saying that everybody should feel this way, but for me, being adopted was like being in prison. It was like being on death row. It was a life sentence and I felt I'd done nothing wrong. I didn't deserve it.

And so the day I found out I could get a discharge, it was like, I saw a hole in the wall of that prison and I knew I had to get out. I had to get out of that hole. And I can honestly say I've never experienced more pain and angst in my life than going through that process.

And just desperate. Desperate to get out and terrified that the judge might not give me what I wanted. And it was hard. It was confronting. I had to tell the people who adopted me. I had to serve notices on everybody at the start, and when I put my application in, I wasn't in contact with any of them.

I'd effectively lived as an orphan for many years. And so I had to sort of send people letters out of the blue to serve notices on them and tell them what I was doing. And the court allows them to have a say. So that was terrifying. There was all those emotions and, anyway, in the end I got what I wanted. And my mother and my two brothers came with me to the court on the final day, and we sat there in the court and the judge gave me back to my mother, and it was just–it was just fantastic. We walked out of the court, we stood on the steps of the court. My husband sent two big bunches of flowers and we had our photo taken. And then we went to lunch, and that's the day my life began.

Haley Radke: That's the day your life began. Were you fearful that the people who adopted you would say something–that they wanted to still be named on record as adopting you? Was that something that you expected or anticipated?

Grace Kelly: I was fearful. I was fearful of hurting them. I was fearful of them opposing it. I was fearful of my mother and my family rejecting me. There was a lot of fear, but at the end of the day, I thought, “This is about me. It's time. It's time I took my life back.”

Everybody else made decisions for me when I was born. Nobody really cared about what I thought. They took my identity off me. They gave me new parents. They gave me a new birth certificate. They took one birth certificate and destroyed it, and gave me an identity that I was forced to live in, which was a lie, and I'd had to live that life. I'd had to live with the stigma and the discomfort and the anger and the shame. And I was not going to have it any longer. And I was going to take my life back and I was going to take my rights back.

And I came back to my family, not as a second class citizen, but as a fully fledged member of the family. Not an associate member, a real member with all of the rights, all of the moral legal rights, all of the natural rights of a child. I took those rights back. I claimed them for myself. The judge gave them to me, and I stood up and I was an equal in my own family.

I was no longer a kind of, "Yes, this is kind of a member of our family, but not really because she's actually legally a member of another family." And then, from that point, every day the pain faded. Every day, there was just less pain. And I'm not saying it's been easy, remaking those relationships. We've had challenging moments, and we'll always have challenging moments.

But the pain is pretty much gone now. The pain that I used to feel, I just don't feel it anymore. I'm a different person. I'm me. I'm finally me, and it's just the best thing.

Haley Radke: Grace, I have goosebumps. When you're speaking from this place of empowerment and you know, fully yourself and it comes across so well even over the Internet here.

And I'm curious about how you got to that place of deciding that and feeling that. Because, you know, I was just speaking to a friend the other day– We were just talking about how so many adoptive people wait to search until their adoptive parents have died. You know? Cause they don't wanna hurt their feelings or anything.

Grace Kelly: Yes.

Haley Radke: And, and so you're just like, all in.

Grace Kelly: All in. That's right. Because you know, my feelings never got considered. You know, I was born and I was a problem that people needed to eliminate, and I was a– And you know, we were part of the forced adoption era. This is what–I'm not saying… This is, again, I don't want to hurt anybody out there who's adopted.

They might be happy with it. It might be the best thing for them. This is my story; it is not a reflection on their story. It's not, “Just because I feel this way, it means others have to feel this way.” But the way I felt was that I was a problem that needed to be eliminated and no one cared about me when I was born.

I was just something to be gotten rid of and they never–no one ever thought about how I might feel about it. They all thought about themselves. All the adults thought about themselves, the people who wanted to be rid of the problem, and the people who wanted a baby to love. So, you know, you have enough pain in life and you get to this point and you think, "No, sorry. It's my life and it's my turn."

And I think the legal– We need to separate… In the adoption space, we need to separate the act of giving a child a home versus the legal act of adoption, which is destroying a child's identity, taking their birth certificate and giving them another one, giving them a fake identity. That is wrong. It should not happen.

And if you have good relationships with the people that adopted you, if that relationship is strong, then it should be able to survive you getting your own identity back. You know? Because life's complicated, right? We have relationships with people. Our relationships can be parental, they can be parent/child.

It doesn't have to be that a reversal is a divorce. It's really, and I think this is… In Australia, we are–we've had an apology for forced adoptions (federally), in 2013. We have– The adoption legislation is different in each state. In Victoria, the state that I was born in and adopted in, and I gave evidence.

We had recently a Senate inquiry here. I gave evidence in that. There's now a report and a recommendation that if adoptions do occur, they don't occur with any change to the birth certificate. So, when a child can't live in their family of origin… When they lose that, and they go to a new place, it's–adoption should be additive.

We shouldn't take off that child. We should be additive, so we should never take their identity. And we don't need to; we don't need to tamper with their birth certificates. We can simply have an adoption certificate, which is like a marriage certificate, where the people that take care of the child then assume the rights and responsibilities, and the child assume rights. So a child shouldn't have to lose their identity to gain a home.

Haley Radke: Absolutely. I mean, everyone that's been trying to work in original birth certificate access has been, you know, saying that, and just coming from this place of, I mean, basic human right, to know your identity?

Grace Kelly: To live in your identity.

Haley Radke: Yes! And you and I, it's just, it's obvious. How is it not obvious to other people, you know?

Grace Kelly: How is it not obvious? I've had the conversation with various people and I think, you know, you just have to explain it to them. And once you explain it to them, they do get it. But if you ask them, "How do you know who you are? How do you know who…? Tell me your name. What is your name? Who is your mother? Who is your father? Who are your grandparents? What is your heritage? Where did you come from? What's your family line? Who are your ancestors? How do you know that? How do you really know?” At the end of the day, there’s only one way that you can prove who you are, and that's your birth certificate.

So I gave a talk recently to an adoption group in New South Wales and they're doing (that's a state in Australia), and they're doing sort of two birth certificates and three birth certificates, you know, you can get. And I just said, "Why do you need a second and a third birth certificate? You're only born once. You're not born twice. You're not born three times."

So this birth certificate business becomes–it's an archaic tradition, which comes from people not wanting to– people wanting to cover up the fact that the child isn't born unto them. And what it is, is I'm not a religious person, per se, but you know, we're born to our parents and that's a God-given, right, okay?

And man can't play God and say, "No, you're not born to them. You were actually born to someone else." And this bang, the gavel, sign a piece of paper, and this court order makes it so. It doesn't make it. So it's just a piece of paper. It doesn't make fiction fact.

After I went through mine, (I write a newspaper column), and so my name changed. So I couldn't keep my old name, and I didn't wanna, I hate seeing that name, that I hated that name. I hated that name all my life. And that name was a yoke I had to wear around my neck. And I knew it wasn't mine– it wasn't me, and I couldn't wait to be rid of it. And I had to change my name in the public eye.

I thought, "How am I gonna do this? Do I just start writing with a new name?" And then everyone goes, "Oh, why did you change your name?" You know? And I thought, "This is really ghastly. I'm a very private person. I don't like talking about personal things.” Here I am talking on a podcast; I'm a very private person.

I don't like–I don't do social media, really. I don't talk about it, but I have to. It's my obligation now, to tell everybody why my name's changed, because A), it's the truth. People deserve to know, and it might help other people out there to know that you can do what I did.

So I wrote a column saying that this is the last column you'll ever read by this person, because she no longer exists. And this is why, and I explained about adoption and how it's about a change of birth certificate and how wrong that is, and how I had to undo it. And then I ended the column by saying, “This is my name. I'm here ready to continue writing for you, but it will be under my new name. I'm really happy and I hope you'll be happy for me, too.”

So, then I started writing in my new name and then I thought, you know, “Other people aren't as good as me at writing and filling out forms. And that was the part–that's really what getting an adoption reversal, that's where the hard work is. It's filling out the forms.” I thought, “I can help other people who can't do that.”

And so I just started a Facebook page Adoption Reversal @Cribmates and I called it Cribmates because we're all in the crib together and we're all mates. And so since that time I have been shepherding people through the reversal system in various states around Australia, and we're sort of up to number 10 this year.

So just, you know, always got a couple of cases on the go at a time and depending on the states, the processes for reversal vary. And, yeah, so I just do the forms for them, lodge for them with our email address, deal with the courts, deal with the attorney general's department, and then sit with them in the court as a support person. And speak for them if they want me to speak for them, and, yeah, get them out the hole in the prison.

Haley Radke: Without breaking confidentiality, what has been the experience for the folks you've walked through this with? What are the unexpected things? Like for you've kind of shared it's like this peace and you feel like, you know… But it's really changing your identity that you've lived with since it was changed for you. I imagine it can be quite emotional for folks.

Grace Kelly: It's very emotional. It is really, really hard. I spoke to one lady yesterday that we just achieved a reversal for, and she said that she feels like she's been born again. She feels like her life begins, and that's a common thing.

People suddenly realize that they are who they were always meant to be. So there is grief. There is grief for the lost years. There is absolutely grief for the lost years. There's anger at “the person I could have been if the person that I could have been wasn't taken away.” But more than anything, there's hope, and growth, and peace, and there's not–you're not trapped. You're not trapped living in this identity that was chosen for you instead of the one you were born with.

Haley Radke: And has anyone come and sort of, like, put their toe in? They kind of are curious, but it just feels like too much right now?

Grace Kelly: Yes, yes. I have had people come and we talk them through it. And so what I do now is, I talk people through the process.

I now send them away to talk to the other members of their circle, talk to everybody about it, talk to their family, make contact with people that they may not have had contact with. Think about it for a while. And then come back and let me know if it's really what they want to do. And sometimes they come back and they say, "It's great. I'm not gonna do it right now. I might…"

And a lot of people do want to wait until the people who adopted them pass away because they don't want to hurt them. Or there's other issues with inheritance that they don't want to disrupt.

Haley Radke: Right. Can you talk about that? Because it does change your legal status, right?

Grace Kelly: Yes. It changes. It changes it, yes. So, as a child, you have natural rights, you have the inheritance rights that… You don't have the right to inherit, or the right to demand anything. But if your parent doesn't– disinherits you, you have the right to challenge that, because you're the child.

So when you reverse your adoption, you’re put back in your family and you gain the inheritance rights, but you lose the inherited rights of the people that adopted you. Because the way that the reversal’s done here, they're done– It's a complete annulment, so it's as though it didn't… So legally, it never occurred.

So it's completely and utterly reversed. So now legally, I was never adopted. It never happened in the eyes of the law. So it's just an extraordinary thing to try and absorb. It's really hard.

Haley Radke: Do you know…? I'm sure you do, I'm sure you've heard this. But I mean, I have asked around. I'm in Canada. But most of my connections are with American adopted people and the process there, it really seems like, I don't know… Listeners, if you know differently, tell me.

But, if you want to be back in your family of origin, there has to be another adoption and they have to adopt you back and… Okay, talk about your reaction to that.

Grace Kelly: Oh, look, I just find that galling. It's the most shocking abuse of human rights. I just think that it's a fundamental breach of your human rights to have your identity taken off you without your consent, and to then have to go through this rigmarole to get it back.

It's absurd. It's absurd. And look, we are changing attitudes in Australia. We are– people are realizing that it's outrageous to take a child's identity and to take their birth certificate and give them another one with new parents on it. It's unnecessary, for a start. And it's just outrageous.

And I feel so desperately, desperately sad for people who want to have a reversal that can't do it. And, you know, it was the most empowering thing for me in the world. Because as someone who was living in an involuntary adoption construct, (and that's the term that I use when I apply)... I don't use the term, “adoptee.” I use the term, "person living in an adoption construct," because that's what it is.

And we also use the term, "survivor of forced adoption," because in Australia, it's been recognized that our adoptions were forced adoptions and they've been apologized for. So what do you do when you apologize for something? What's the next step? You make it right.

So what we need to do now is make it easier in Australia for people to have their adoptions reversed. We shouldn't have to go to court, we shouldn't have to jump through hoops. We shouldn't have to prove that, you know, we have special circumstances. It should really just be: tick a box, reverse it, give me my paperwork back. So that's where we are working towards.

But yeah, sorry, I know that what I'm talking about is going to be very confronting and very upsetting and it's going to give some people hope, but it's also going to hurt other people. And I'm just so aware of that. So I just want to say again, I just don't want anybody out there listening to think that I'm passing judgment, or that I'm saying that, you know, "Just because I felt this way, you should feel this way."

Everyone has a different experience. People living with adoption experience it in all different ways.

Haley Radke: Absolutely. Thank you for saying that. And, you know, it's incredible to me that you've walked through with these people, to assist them in their choice to annul their adoptions. Because I've seen you write it can cost $15,000 to have a lawyer assist you. So, it's really amazing that you're doing that. The other thing I wanna…I'm curious if you have a comment on this. Since you've been a columnist and, you know, working in the public and really have your finger on the pulse of a lot of these things, since the apology, you mentioned you've seen sort of a shift…

Can you talk more about that? Have you had, did you have comments when you posted your column? You know, "Hello, nice to finally meet you." Did you have people react to that? Were things, are things more positive now that there's more awareness in Australia?

Grace Kelly: I think things are more positive. I think I did… It's the only time that I've ever received angry letters. So, I did receive a couple of angry letters. One began, "HOW DARE YOU?" That was the first few words. But most people were positive. I think the general feedback is that most people said, "Well, yeah, I didn't realize that adopted people had their birth certificate taken away. How ridiculous.” And, “Of course that shouldn't happen."

So I think it's very important when we're in the adoption space to always clarify the difference between providing a child with a loving environment and a home versus the active adoption, which is the legal act of adoption, which is taking their birth certificate, severing that link, giving them a new one.

So they're two very, very different things, and I object to the taking of the birth certificate. I don't object to giving a child a home. I don't object to that, because I know that there are circumstances where people just simply cannot be with their family. The other thing I'm doing is, I'm encouraging people here and when I make my applications to the various courts, this is the language I use.

I never use the language “adoptee,” because people who adopt don't like to be called “adopters.” Okay? So I use the language– instead of "adopted parent," I say, “woman who adopted me,” “man who adopted me.” That's the language we use in the court. Instead of "adoptive brother or sister or sibling," we say "other child who was adopted by the people who adopted me."

We make it very clear what the truth is here. We also do not use "birth mother." We say "mother." "Birth father," "father." So it's very simple in the court, for the court records, for the applications, we say "mother, father, woman who adopted me, man who adopted me.” Applicant: “adult survivor of forced adoption practices seeking restoration."

So that's the language we use, and by using that language, we move the debate forward. In Australia (and it sort of varies between the states), but the legislation in most states is that you can have a reversal if you have exceptional circumstances. Okay? So that's the one we have. That's the thing we have to go under.

And what I say is, “This adoption was exceptional.” The circumstances were exceptional, because it had a federal government inquiry into it. It was classified by the federal government as a forced adoption. You mean, once the Prime Minister apologizes? That's exceptional and that's exceptional circumstances in itself, before we even begin the life story of the applicant.

So what I do is I start with that. And then I tell the life story of the applicant, which is usually exceptional. Always exceptional, actually (in itself), in that the treatment dished out to them, the things that they had to bear, or the pain that they suffered is not usual. It's not normal. It is exceptional.

And so the courts, the judges, the people in and around the court, the clerks of the court, the Attorney General's department, all of the people that deal in this space, they're very compassionate. They're very compassionate, and they take a compassionate interpretation of that exceptional status. And we have not had one knocked back.

Haley Radke: Congratulations.

Grace Kelly:Thank you. Thank you.

Haley Radke: That's really amazing. Now, speaking as someone who's just a little younger, was the apology, did it cover only certain years? Is there any limitations to, kind of, using that? Or it's just blanket for everyone?

Grace Kelly: It was–there was an identified era of forced adoptions, and I think it was something like from the 40s onwards, but I couldn't be quite sure. But basically, it's pretty much everyone who's alive in Australia today, really, other than just the very young.

And the one thing that I will say about the apology, is it did focus very much on the mother relinquishing. Mothers. And people who were adopted found that very hurtful. And we’re still fighting that, because– I understand there's extraordinary pain and grief in losing a child to adoption, but when you are adopted on the day you were born, if you are adopted at birth, you lose everything.

You lose everything and everyone; you lose your mother, your father, you lose your grandparents on both sides. You lose your aunties, uncles, cousins, siblings, everyone. You lose your entire family on the day you were born.

It is a catastrophic loss and so I think there's not enough recognition of that catastrophic loss that you suffer on the first day you're born and there's just too much focus in Australia, anyway, on the reparations and the apologies to the mothers who lost their children.

Haley Radke: So you hope for more balance there?

Grace Kelly: Yes.

Haley Radke: Okay. Now just to follow up on that and double down. I'm sorry to do that, but it's sort of connected. Then I could hear someone listening, thinking, "Well, what about the mothers who chose to relinquish? And they don't want their child legally back?" You said all parties do get notified of the process?

Grace Kelly: Yes, they do. Yep.

Haley Radke: And…I don't know. Can you talk about that? It's painful to think about, but I'm rejected from my mother and I can't imagine if I went to her and said, "Hey…!" She wouldn't be excited to have me back on the family register.

Grace Kelly: It's a hard one. So this is my attitude: "It's not about you. It's not about the mother. It's about me. It's about me and my life and my right to be me. My right to have a birth certificate that shows who my mother is. And if you don't want to be my mother, well, tough. Too bad. It's not about you, it's about me." And the courts here, they don't take that into account.

So the legislation, yes, they do allow the other people to say, and they can have their say, but the legislation is about the person who was adopted and whether it's in their best interests. So the court looks at three things. They look at, one, what was the impact of the adoption on the person who was adopted?

They want to know all about that. Secondly, they want to know, if the adoption reversal is granted, what impact will that have on the person who was adopted? Thirdly, if the adoption reversal isn't granted, what impact will that have on the person? So, you need to make the arguments that address those points.

Sometimes, depending on the jurisdiction, the court will get an independent report from a social worker or a psychiatrist, and we say, (and that's several thousand dollars, by the way).... And we always say, "No, we're not paying for that. You pay for it. You pay for it” (as in the state). The state took this child, the state was involved in this forced adoption.

The state usually placed them in a scenario that was dissatisfactory. It was negligent and there was a lack of duty of care. "And so you, you pay for this $5,000 report." And they do.

Haley Radke: Isn't it weird? And this is the first thing I'm thinking, “Wait, so the person that was adopted is centered? And it, and those three things are all about them?”

Grace Kelly: Yes, and when you bring it back to the legislation, that's the way the legislation is written. So if you bring that back to the legislation and insist on the legislation, it comes back to that. If you overlook the legislation, the person at the adoption isn't the one that's centered on, because all of the adults involved have their own wants and desires, and they bring their own needs to the table.

"My need to have a child.” “My need to be rid of a child.” “My desire to have a child.” “My desire to be rid of this child." Those are the things when it comes to the legislation, the legislation is crafted in the interest of the child. So we must bring it back to that and we must insist on that.

Haley Radke: Gold star for that. Oh my goodness. I don't know. It just– Over here, I'll just say North America. We have been really focused on allowing access to original birth certificates and, you know, here and there-- there’s some states that are fully open, some provinces that are fully open, et cetera. But to hear…

It just feels like you're all so ahead of us, you know? Is this the next step? So when you hear things like, for me, “Well then, the biological family has to adopt the person back,” you know? Or there’s some states where adoptive parents get to choose the place of birth on the birth certificate? If you could see Grace's face, you would know her reaction to that.

Grace Kelly: Contempt. That was contempt and disgust. Yeah.

Haley Radke: So, yeah. If you were talking to activists over here, what would you say? Like how would people start looking for that? Does it take one case of someone trying to get their adoption reversed? What do you think are the best next steps for someone working in this?

Grace Kelly: It's hard for me to answer that because I don't have a full sense of where you are at, but I'll tell you where I want to take this, Haley.

Haley Radke: I'm ready.

Grace Kelly: Now, here's a dangerous idea. Why is it that people are allowed to… If you have a child today in Australia, you are responsible for that child whether you wanted it or not; you are responsible. If the parent decides to abandon the child, they have to pay maintenance, for the rest of…until the child's 18, or perhaps even 21. They're not allowed to just shirk their responsibilities and say, "Oh, well, you know, it was a one night stand." Or, "Oh, you know, I was a mistake. I really couldn't be bothered with this, and I'm, you know, it's just not what I wanted to be doing with my life, is having this child."
They're not allowed to do that. And, you know, the state will requisition money from the parent's bank account and make sure the child's provided for; they pay maintenance. It's called maintenance. I think you call it alimony, or something, but we call it maintenance. Now, why is it that people can adopt a child and wipe their hands of them? Why shouldn't people who adopt a child have to pay maintenance?

That's where I want to take it. Because really, when that child grows up, they find their family and they feel very hurt that no one made a contribution to their upbringing. Why? Why do we allow people to just adopt a child and wipe their hands of them, wipe all that responsibility? It's not fair. It's not fair to the child. It might be fair to them, might be more convenient for them, but it's not fair to the child. And I can tell you that if my mother and father had paid maintenance for me, even if it was a nominal amount, things would be a lot different.

My life would've been a lot different. I would've not had such a deprived existence, or childhood. I would've been far better off to have had that maintenance coming in from then. And that fundamental recognition that, "We put this human being on the earth and we just don't–we do not have the right to wipe our hands of this person that we created. We have an obligation."

I believe parents have a moral obligation. And you know, when I went through my reversal, as I said, I was estranged and I was thinking about, well… Before I sent off the notice to say that I was going to, you know, apply, I was thinking, "Well, what if they don't want anything to do with me?"

And I just came to the conclusion that that's their problem. If they're gonna be like… I'm getting my reversal, I'm gonna get it. And if they don't want anything to do with me, well that's down to them. That's their problem. But I'm gonna have all my legal rights. I'm going to legally be part of my family.

I'm going to legally be my mother's child. So, if they don't want anything to do with me, that's their problem. But, you know, my family are really good people, and I, you know– They recognize the fundamental importance of it. They recognized that I was gonna be given back, and they stepped up and, you know…

I'm not gonna say things are perfect. They're never perfect in relationships, but, gee, they're as good as I could have ever have hoped they ever would be. And more. And look, as time goes on, it just gets better and better, because the length of time that I spent separated from them becomes less and less.

Haley Radke: So, we started back... Go back to the beginning when we shared your story and you talked about your state of mind this far out, from four years ago. And so many adopted people have pain and are, you know– We're always in therapy, and we're looking for healing and all kinds of things. Can you say– What's the one thing? What do you think is the peace? Where is that coming from?

Grace Kelly: It's the peace comes from, "I am where I was meant to be. I am who I was meant to be. I am who I was born, and I am where I was meant to be." On my birthday, I can celebrate my birthday now. It's the day I was born. I never used to celebrate my birthday. I used to spend my birthday trying not to be in tears, because why would I celebrate the day I was given up? What's to celebrate about that?

So now, on my birthdays, I don't have that pain anymore. I just don't. It took a while to fade. But it faded quite quickly. You know, when I say–I know, I just contradicted myself. I felt normal within probably a year, you know? And my husband's watched me with the reversal work, and he has said that every one I get through, he says, I get stronger. He says he's watched me get stronger. And I honestly feel like I'm standing on the outside of a prison wall, and there's a hole and there's a person inside and I have to reach through that hole and pull them out. And I tell you what, I'm going to keep doing this work for as long as I can, because I'm not gonna leave that space.

Anyone who wants out of that, all they have to do is stick their hand out through the wall, and I will do everything to pull them through to the other side, and pull them through to the freedom that I have, because I've seen how it's changed their lives. And I'm just gonna keep doing it, and I'm gonna keep doing it, and I'm going to keep telling. I'm gonna keep writing to governments, I'm gonna keep writing to the courts, and I'm just gonna keep doing it, until everybody realizes that adoption should occur without destroying a birth certificate and an identity.

When I first started doing the reversals, with the application forms on the courts, there wasn't even an application form for a reversal. You had to use the application form that people use when they wish to adopt a child.

Haley Radke: No. I thought you were gonna say, like, divorce or something. Ooh.

Grace Kelly: Yeah. And so I would have to cross out, you know, “name of child to be adopted,” and I would have to cross that out. And I would write in big capital letters, “APPLICANT IS ADULT SURVIVOR OF FORCED ADOPTION.” And I wrote to every court and said, "You don't have these forms; you don't have forms for us. We need our own forms and we need a section on your website, and you need to adjust your website." And most of them have, so we're working through that. We're bringing awareness to the fore.

Haley Radke: Amazing. You mentioned earlier that you had given testimony, and I have a quote from this. This is from the Parliament of Victoria. Query into responses to historical forced adoption in Victoria, and you're quoted in here: "Adoption legally takes a child out of one family tree, puts them in another, and issues them a new identity to make this administrative rearrangement appear a biological fact."

And I love how you have, even throughout the interview, you've talked about language use, and what you write on the forms, and this. And it takes out all the emotional things that often someone like me brings into it, you know? Because I wanna know the story and I wanna know… But that's not what's helpful in government situations.

Grace Kelly: No. And in that inquiry, I gave evidence. I mean, I had everything written down that I wanted to say. And I thought about it, and I thought really carefully about what I was going to wear. And I got there, and I just burst into tears and cried all over them. Oh dear!

Haley Radke: It's so deeply personal.

Grace Kelly: It is.

Haley Radke: You know, as much as we can put on a business front, and this is… We're talking about legal contracts and things; it's so personal, you know. It's our very core of us.

Grace Kelly: It is. Speaking of being so personal, I… When I meet people now, I'm not frightened to meet new people. I'm not frightened to introduce myself. I'm not wary. I don't dodge making new friends. I don't have to dance around where I came from and try and avoid the topic.

They ask me where my family are from, and I just tell them, “Well, you know, my family are in Brisbane. I have two brothers. You know, my parents were elderly.” And it's at that. I don't have to go into the, "Oh, you know, but I was adopted."

And then, you know, because what always used to happen is they'd say, "Where are you from? Where are you family?"

And I would say something; they'd, "Oh, this doesn't sound like you."

"Oh no. Well, you know, I was adopted."

"Oh, really? How lovely. Oh, how was that?"

You know, and then you're into this story, and before you know it, you're pulling your guts out and putting them on the table. They're sifting through your intestines. And then they sort of, satisfy their curiosity, or they have an argument with you about how they, “knew someone who was adopted and they were happy, so why aren't you happy?” And you are left a shattered mess. And they walk away and say, "Oh, thank you. I thought your story was really interesting." And it's just devastating. And I don't have to do that anymore. I don't have to say, "I was adopted, blah, blah, blah." I don't have to do it. And it is just freedom, freedom.

Haley Radke: You're not an anecdote anymore.

Grace Kelly: And you know, it really, really annoys me when people say, "Oh, I knew someone who was adopted, or then, and they were happy," and it's just terrible. It's a terrible thing to say. I mean, I was speaking to a girlfriend recently about it, and she said, "Oh, why is it so hurtful?"

And I said, "Okay. So you don't have children. Do you ever have people say, ‘Oh, I knew someone who doesn't have children? Well, they're happy. Why aren't you happy?’" She says, "Yeah, I do. I find it really hurtful." I said, "Well, there you go." You don't speak to an adopted person that way. You don't say that to them, because everyone has a different experience.

Some people are very happy in their adoption; other people are not. Don't ever try and tell someone they should be happy with it, or should be unhappy with it. Because I mean, I have friends who are very, very happy in their adoption situation. They're very, very happy and you know, that's great.

I would never try and argue with anyone. I would never try and persuade. That's one thing I won't do. As I said, I have a Facebook page, and I've said on that Facebook page, "I'm not here to persuade anybody to do it.” I'm not here to argue. I'm not here to say, “You should do it,” or “You shouldn't do it,” or, “Here's why you should do it."

“But if you want to do it, and it's really what you want to do, I'll help you. But don't come to me looking for an argument, because you're not gonna get one.” I don't have time to sit on social media all day, arguing with people.

Haley Radke: Absolutely. Well, one of the things I really respect that you've shared today, I mean this sort of, this underlying thing– Everything is about the person who was adopted, and this process really isn't necessarily a comment on the state of the adoptive situation they were brought up in. It's literally just as simple as: identity reclamation.

Grace Kelly: That's what it is. It's just identity reclamation. And there are people who are very happy to just be in that journey with the person, and put their own feelings aside. As the person who adopted somebody, they recognize that, you know, they're an adult now, and that they'll always have that strong relationship.

It's simply that they're getting their birth certificate back. You know, a lot of people want… They have children; they have grandchildren. They want their children and grandchildren, and then the people beyond that to be able to trace back through their family tree. And to go to the correct lineage. It's as simple as that. It's just truth, isn't it? Truth, isn't that what we all seek, is truth? And you know, sometimes truth is confronting. It's still the truth.

Haley Radke: Yep. And it's not a comment on any person involved. Besides me.

This has been fascinating. Is there anything else you wanna tell us before we move and do our recommended resources?

Grace Kelly: No, not really. I mean, I just again, wanna say that I'm sharing my story and I'm raising awareness, and I don't wanna hurt anyone, or upset anyone, or offend anyone. I really don't. Just because it's the way I feel, it doesn't mean it's the way you should feel.

And if you’re listening, and you feel differently, that's perfectly fine. I'm not saying– I'm not trying to tell anybody how they should view things or feel. It's just this was just me at this point in time. So, I'm sharing with you my experience and my feelings at a moment in time.

Haley Radke: Yes. Thank you for saying that. Grace, I'm so honored that you spoke with us today. I hope folks check out your organization, which I absolutely wanna recommend: Adoption Reversal. And the other resource for folks that maybe haven't really heard too much about what's going on in Australia, I have a couple podcasts to recommend.

There's the Adopted Feels hosted by Hana and Ryan. They're both located in Australia, they're Korean adoptees. And then Adopt Perspective from Jigsaw Queensland. Both of those podcasts have tons of episodes. Even Adopt Perspective has a couple of episodes on adoption reversal. They also interview someone who's gone through the process and talk a little bit about it. So if you want to even hear more about what's going on there, you can listen to those. I'll link them in the show notes.

How about you, Grace? What would you like to recommend to us?

Grace Kelly: Google “Australian adoption apology,” and just read the one-pager. And then there's a report that goes with it, but, you know, that apology is– it's profoundly altered the course of people's lives.

And we now have to take that forward to the next step, because it's one thing to apologize and, you know, they've given a whole lot of money for counseling and support and all of that. But everybody's kind of ignoring that we now need to undo the wrongs, so that's the reversal stuff. So that's the next bit.

But yeah, look, have a look at the apology and the wording of the apology. I've also posted on my Facebook thing the words of a judge, which is a judge in Australia's legal perspective on what adoption actually is. And I can– I'll post that again. And so that'll be the most recent post. I'll post it again, because I don't post on Facebook very often; I hardly ever go there. I'm just on there because I wanted to put my email address there, so that if people want to do a reversal, they can email me.

Haley Radke: Okay, we will link to that post, and I can also link to the YouTube video of the apology. I've watched it several times. It's very profound. Thank you. I'm so thankful you mentioned those things.

So Grace, I guess the best place to connect with you is your Facebook page.

Grace Kelly: Yes, email is better, because I can respond to that individually. I'm not great–so my email address is on the Facebook page. I'm not great with Facebook. Like I said, I don't go there very often. So if people put comments and things like that and I don't reply, please don't feel slighted.

If you send an email, I will respond, but yeah, I just– I'm actually not very good at using Facebook. And so I reply to people and then it goes to all, instead of the person, and I just, I'm not very good at it, so I'm apologizing in advance.

Haley Radke: All right. We will look for your email on the Facebook page, and no problem. We get it. All of these things are not easy to navigate. We've all made a little error here or there, you know, on the social media. This has been so wonderful. Thank you so much. I also just wanna thank the listener who wrote in and asked me to interview you, because they admire you so much, and now I can see why.

Grace Kelly: Oh, thank you. That's so kind of you. And thank you to that listener and thank you, Haley, so much. It's been an absolute honor and a privilege, and I just send a big hello and a big warm hug to everyone listening. And just to say, you're not alone and we are all in this together. No matter where we are.

Haley Radke: Beautiful. Yes.

Isn't she so passionate? I hope that if you are an adoptee activist and you have tried or are interested in annulling or reversing your adoption (especially in North America or any other country besides Australia), and you've been successful, or you've figured out some research– we'd love to hear about that. Because you know we have lots of folks who probably will hear this and be like, "I wanna do that."

Anyway, thank you so much, Grace, and for your work for the community, especially over in Australia. I wanted to let you know about the Adoptees On Patreon community. I mentioned at the beginning of the show, right now we have some really amazing things happening.

We just finished our book club with Rebecca Carroll, author of Surviving the White Gaze, and the recording of that is available for Patreon supporters. If you're listening to this the day the show airs, tomorrow, Saturday, we have an Adoptees Off Script party. And we're talking about family BS, which is a kind of a fun theme to get us through the holiday season.

And there's always lots of great conversations happening with fellow adoptees. You can listen to me and my friends talk about stuff behind the scenes on the Adoptees Off Script podcast every week. And there is conversation in the Adoptees On Facebook community, and all those places. So, that is an amazing way to support the show to keep existing in this world, and to connect with some fellow adoptees, and maybe make some new friends.

I'd love your support. Adopteeson.com/community has info for you. Thank you so much for listening today, and let's talk again next Friday.