Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/264

Haley Radke: [00:00:00] This podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing stated on it, either by its hosts or any guests, is to be construed as psychological, medical, or legal advice.

You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. I'm Haley Radke. Adoptee Remembrance Day was first commemorated on October 30th of 2020. We've done a variety of episodes over the last few years, beginning in 2020, with an interview with the founder of Adoptee Remembrance Day, Pamela Karanova.

We've had listeners submit recordings of their thoughts, their poetry and prose. In deciding what to do this year, I was considering what would be most impactful for our community. And I chose to do a healing series episode about suicide. This is the thing we [00:01:00] whisper about, we hide, we allude to, we can be ashamed of, and we're getting braver about discussing.

I've invited Lina Vanegas, who holds a master's of social work to talk to us today about suicide. We will be mentioning suicidal ideation, suicide attempts, and death by suicide at multiple points during this episode, so please take care in deciding whether or not to listen. I don't usually do quite such an extended introduction, but because of the topic, I want to let you know exactly where we're going in this episode.

We talk about the research on adoptees and suicide, stigma surrounding death by suicide and appropriate language to use. Finding supports as someone who has suicidal ideation and what to be cautious of, support for survivors of suicide attempts and suicide loss, and how to best support fellow adoptees who reach out to us when they are feeling suicidal.[00:02:00]

Links to everything we'll be talking about today are on the website adopteeson. com. We also will have a transcript of this episode if you want to go through some of the... points that Lina makes later on in how to best talk to someone who is feeling suicidal. Okay, deep breath. Let's listen in. I'm so pleased to welcome to Adoptees On, Lina Vanegas.

Welcome, Lina.

Lina Vanegas, MSW: Hi, Haley. Thank you so much for having me as a guest today.

Haley Radke: I am so glad we get to speak. I know you've been talking about what we're going to talk about today for a long time, and I know your expertise in this matter is really important to our community. But would you start because it's your first time on.

Can you just give us a little snippet of your adoptee experience, please?

Lina Vanegas, MSW: Yes, I identify as a displaced person. I was bought by a white [00:03:00] couple. I was sold from Bogota, Colombia to the Midwest. I reside in the Midwest and I was raised by them. I am in reunion with my family and that has had lots of challenges as many of I'm a social worker. I do a lot of speaking engagements, talking about suicide, mental health, trauma, and adoption. I host a podcast, a joint podcast. I started to teach a class on transracial adoption because I feel like that's a topic where there's not a lot of information on, and we need to fill that gap.

Haley Radke: Okay. Expert in all the things. I wanted to do an episode for Adoptee Remembrance Day. We've done several different versions of this over the last few years that Adoptee Remembrance Day has been going. And I really wanted to talk about suicide and suicide prevention. There are a lot of stats and things [00:04:00] that we kind of throw around at the community level that sometimes we're getting wrong, sometimes we're getting right.

But I'm curious why, personally, why this work has been so important to you. And then let's talk about the stats and studies and if you think it's accurate or not, all that.

Lina Vanegas, MSW: Yeah. Well, for me, the work started out very personal. One of my husband's, the father of my children, he died by suicide.

He was adopted. And then five years later, my mom from Colombia died by suicide. So that really touched me on a level I can't even put into words. So as a social worker, I was like, I need to come back to this. I need to talk about this because it's something that's not being talked about at all.

And there is like literally no support. I started from a personal level, it was like lived experience was huge. And then as I've [00:05:00] supported adoptive people, I have some clients that I work with, there's not a day that goes by where I'm not talking about, they're not talking about suicidal ideation, suicide attempts or deaths, from suicide, working with other adoptive people being in community with other adoptive people, it reinforced again, this is where I need to be, this is what I need to be doing.

That's how that began.

Haley Radke: And when you started in the community talking about suicide and things like, you've probably heard this thing that people say all the time, adoptees are four times more likely to die by suicide, which is incorrect. That's referring to one particular study, and it's four times more likely to attempt.

So let's make sure people are getting those things correct. But the you've seen some of the research. I know you've linked to that some of some academic articles in a presentation I went to that you gave. Can you talk a little bit about that? And first of all, what we think, what is out there for us to understand?

I, what I've seen is that some of the studies have adoptive [00:06:00] parents reporting on their teenage adoptees. I don't know if we all told our adoptive parents all the things when we were teenagers, but probably not. Anyway, your thoughts on that.

Lina Vanegas, MSW: Yeah, definitely not. We're not, I would say most adoptive children are not in a space where they can, where it's safe for them to tell adoptive parents because if they did tell their adoptive parents, it's usually very misunderstood and it's just looked at as like the suicide or the attempt or the ideations are looked at just as that.

So it's pathologized and they're labeled and, forced into care, forced on medication, but the root cause isn't being looked at, that's being ignored. So that's not going to help children. That's not going to help adults. That's not going to help us. So, yeah, a lot of the narrative and research. And conversations about adoption are led by adoptive parents, and that is extremely problematic because [00:07:00] it's not their lived experience. And yes, there are some adoptive people that are adoptive parents. They need to clarify that they're also an adoptive parent, right? I feel like there's not transparency in that.

And I also feel it's a big thing. Like we could get into a whole conversation about adoptive people adopting, that's like for another day. But yeah, so it's there's not transparency in the conversations in terms of the research, the study that you're referring to the 2013 Key Study.

Yes, that was a very small study in Minneapolis with Korean adopted people and the results where they were adoptees are four times more likely to attempt suicide. Yes, I do think it's probably higher because as we add an intersectionality as we add in like disability is someone's identifying as trans or queer, if we add in race, all of those things are going to increase attempt rates. If you just look up LGBTQ plus youth, [00:08:00] you're going to see that's they have high attempt rates, right? So I think it's higher than four times more likely just from what I've seen in the people that I support, it's a good place to start, but we can't put everything into that. It's one small study, right? There's a study that's not really talked about. It's from 2001, and it's titled Adoption as a Risk Factor for Attempted Suicide During Adolescence. And this is a really important one because it's going to confirm what a lot of us already know and what we already just kind of said.

The conclusion was attempted suicide is more common among adolescents who lived with adoptive parents than among adolescents who live with their biological parents. Yeah, I mean, that's a huge thing. And then there's also another study from 2010 and it's going to be extremely complex for us, because as adopted people, most of us do not have our medical history.

So, in this study, it's [00:09:00] titled Maternal or Paternal Suicide, Psychiatric and Suicide Attempt, Hospitalization Risk. The finding was that maternal suicide is associated with an increased risk of suicide attempt hospitalization and that's something we wouldn't even know if we don't have medical history.

So I think that's something important to talk about. I mean, and there's other stuff out there, but I think studies, they have their place, right? And a lot of them are academic and, we could debate who's doing them and if someone is biased and don't understand adoption per se, and maybe it's an agency who makes money.

That's their whole livelihood. They're going to make their research fit what they're looking for it to do. So we could get into that too. So it's like research is great. We also have to remember. Lived experience is everything. We need to listen to people who have lost someone to suicide, listen to those who have [00:10:00] attempted, listen to those who live with ideations.

That's really where we're going to learn. And if you don't have that lived experience, you need to listen.

Haley Radke: When you were talking about the other intersectionalities, the other things I was thinking about is how we're overrepresented in mental health issues and addiction issues as well, and all of those things.

When we talk about our lifetime, like we know personally so many adopted people who are struggling with the basics of housing and jobs and in all of these extra things that are upstream issues that we're not paying attention to either. So it is so it's so hard to think about that, right?

Because our community's really hurting and I just feel like this issue is more prevalent even than we might know.

Lina Vanegas, MSW: It really is. I mean, I've kind of got into doing mutual aid [00:11:00] just because a lot of the people that I support. They, they need that, and as I've kind of talked to other people that do mutual aid, yes, that is a huge problem.

If we do not have our basic needs met, we can't feed ourselves. It's going to make sense that we are going to not want to be here, and until we can get that met, we can't even deal with the trauma or some of the, other issues if we're struggling with addiction or suicidal ideations, you know what I mean?

So it's imperative that our basic human needs are met and we could go on. This is like another conversation to I feel like we should have reparations. We should have a basic income as adopted people. We should have free college. We should have grants to start businesses.

We should be able to not worry about health care. We shouldn't have to worry about food. We shouldn't have to worry about transportation, all these things, right? These are big things. And those are barriers. A lot of the time for us being able to get help, if I'm [00:12:00] unhoused and I'm struggling with addiction and I don't have care, if I don't have mental health care, I don't have transportation, I'm unhoused.

So how am I going to, I don't have a phone. How am I going to call somebody. How am I going to text somebody? How am I going to get support? So it's like we need to have a basic level of support before we can even deal with what else is going on. So thank you for bringing that up because that is really important.

Haley Radke: Well, let's talk about the stigma around suicidal ideation and suicide attempts. I know there's lots of us that just don't say anything because we're scared of what the repercussions could be. And there's also this thing around language. And I think some people may have heard on this show and lots of other media properties.

Changing their way they talk about suicide. I don't know if folks [00:13:00] know this, but there's media guidelines on how you're supposed to talk about suicide when you're covering it. And one of the things that we do not say anymore is "committed suicide" because there's this implication that it is I'll like, I'll let you explain it.

Cause you do a really good job of that, but I use died by suicide and can you explain that a little bit about the why we don't say "committed suicide" anymore or why we shouldn't say because lots of people say it. I should clarify.

Lina Vanegas, MSW: I really appreciate you bringing that up because that's something that yeah, that's a that starts the conversation off in a very a different way.

And when we say commit. We're placing blame on somebody, we're placing judgment, we're stigmatizing them, we're associating it with, we're associating it with a crime. People commit rape, people commit murder, people die from suicide. So do you see how if we come at it with a more inclusive way, then the [00:14:00] conversation is going to feel more inclusive.

And as someone who has experienced loss right from suicide and when people say that I feel much more validated if they say, died from suicide instead of saying "committed suicide" because it places blame on the person that I loved and it also places blame on the people that are here, the loved ones, because there's a lot of judgment in that.

I like that you brought that up. And the way we talk really creates a foundation for, having a safe conversation, affirming conversation, inclusive conversation. The words definitely do matter. It's a little thing, and it might take a little bit of time to get used to saying it, but it will go a long way if we say, died from suicide instead of "committed suicide" or "committing suicide".

Haley Radke: Is there other language things that you think we should pay attention to in reducing stigma around suicide? [00:15:00]

Lina Vanegas, MSW: Yeah, people say, associate suicide with being selfish. And it's not selfish. That's a judgment, right? Any kind of blaming language or judgment language. We should not do that. It's not our place to blame people.

It's not inclusive. It's not affirming. It's not empathetic. Anything we can do where it's we're having empathy. I think that's really the key in the conversation. So checking like, is this an empathetic? Is this a validating thing? And if you don't know, you cannot ask, and then if you offended somebody, obviously take accountability for it, because we're all learning here, right?

So it's like we come from a place of empathy. That's what we do. But if we're not sure, we can always ask. We can Google it. We can look to the experts. But, the more we can be empathetic, the more we can open these conversations and destigmatize the conversation because it simply shouldn't be stigmatized.

People will say, unalive themselves. I don't like that terminology. People will say [00:16:00] completed suicide. I don't like that either because it's also, it makes it so much more complex and it just puts so much into it because it's like they died from suicide. Think of it like cancer.

Do we say someone completed cancer? No, someone died from cancer. Think of like medical things. Like people don't complete a heart attack. People don't complete a stroke. So we have to come from that angle. I think that will be a more successful way to talk about it. And we make, we all make mistakes, right?

So it's like we, we can learn from them. We can definitely learn from them. We're all learning. We're all growing. That's why we're here.

Haley Radke: I'm curious if there are things that people said to you after the loss of your mother or your ex husband that were super unhelpful.

Lina Vanegas, MSW: Oh, yeah, there are so many.

I could write a book on that. And that's what also kind of propelled me into this work. It was a very lonely time. I was going about it alone. People don't [00:17:00] understand it. People who I thought were my friends are no longer my friends. People... Would place blame. Well, why did this happen? Well, did this person get help, as if that's the end all and be all right.

Also just placing like judgment. A lot of judgment. I think one of the issues is there's a lot to unpack here. The truth of it, are you going to tell the truth? And of course, I'm going to tell the truth. People were like, really in awe that I'm speaking of the truth because I've talked to a lot of people who come up with other ways that loved ones die because they don't want to say it was suicide.

And so I am one for truth and transparency. And if I don't speak the truth, then I'm part of the problem. So that was one thing where I lost friendships because if people are not supportive of the choices that I make, then I can't have you in my life. And that's a huge one. I'm going to speak the truth on this.

So that was a big thing. People [00:18:00] try to distance themselves as much as possible. Or they'll say, everything happens for a reason, and that's not something you should say to anybody, really, who's lost somebody. Would you tell someone who lost their family member to a heart attack, everything happens for a reason?

No, I would hope that you wouldn't, and if you do that, please don't do that. So those kind of toxic positivity things, or people bring religion into it, and that's not helpful. So there were, yeah, there were a lot of things where I was like, yeah, there's not good support here. I feel very alone.

I don't have a lot of resources. I'm having to grapple with my own unlearning and relearning and decolonizing from all of this because we're all indoctrinated to everything, right? So. I was indoctrinated into a certain way of looking at suicide like we all are. And so as I was going through this process, I really threw myself into reading from other people [00:19:00] who have lost loved ones to suicide, listening to voices of people who have attempted Or, and just trying to understand, and I realized yeah, this is so stigmatized.

This is so judged. This is so misunderstood. So it also just kind of catapulted me into this the work that I do. So, yeah, I mean, it's a lot of unlearning we all have to do. And I didn't have it all figured out in that situation. And I didn't have the knowledge that I do now. I wish I had. I wish everybody who's in the situation, everyone that's impacted by suicide, which is probably everyone in the world.

I wish we all had this information because it would make a huge difference.

Haley Radke: Thank you for sharing that. I hope we're always teaching people to take good care of each other with a little more empathy and thought into our interactions, especially when someone is going through such a difficult time. You mentioned somebody saying why didn't he find help or something so [00:20:00] stupid.

Okay, let's talk about that. How do people find support? And where do you sort of guide them to when we know there's a lot of complexity around asking for support that can sometimes come with harms?

Lina Vanegas, MSW: That's a big question because even I want to kind of demystify the fact that people get support and that everything's okay, because there are people that do everything that we're told to do and then they might still die from suicide.

So just because you got support doesn't mean that, everything's going to be happily ever after, right? So we have to demystify that because we don't want to put. That puts a lot of creates a narrative of well, if you do this, if you take this medication, if you go to so many, therapy sessions, if you get enough sleep, if you eat healthy, if you do all these things, and you're not going to die from suicide.

And that's a narrative. And that's not [00:21:00] factual. That's not true. Yes, that could happen. But every situation is different. And not one situation is better than the other because that didn't happen to them. It's we're all complex human beings. So we have to demystify that in terms of help and support there isn't much, there isn't much for adopted people.

That's again why I do this work, right? As we're thinking about, well, what would we do? And I think the the first thing that would come up is people would say, call a crisis line or call the 988 line. Yes, they're there for people to call when they're in crisis, but I do want to say that they do police, they surveil, and they report.

So if I call, and I'm a transracial adaptive person, I'm from Colombia, so I'm not a white person, right? Or if someone's calling and they're trans and they're a black man, right, that's going to add a lot of complexity to it because we know that the police are going to be involved. So it's it could be [00:22:00] dangerous for people with intersectionality to call these lines because if they report something and the person taking the call deems them to be a risk to themselves or a risk to somebody else, they can do what is called non-consensual rescuing.

So basically the police could be called to the person's house. We know what happens with police violence. So, and if someone's in crisis and the police are not really trained to deal with crisis and mental health, or trauma, and so this could escalate. The other thing is often people are forced into care.

They're forced into psychiatric detention. It has been proven that when you force people into things, whether it's addiction, whether it's mental health, whether it's suicide prevention, it doesn't work when you force people into things and you strip them of their [00:23:00] autonomy. You take their clothes, you take their phones, you lock them in a place they can't leave and they have to prove that they are okay to leave.

The nurses, the doctors, the state has that power. So that. Is enforcing medication on them, right? That is not going to help somebody that is going to harm somebody. And there is research out there. There's a book called Your Consent is Not Required by Rob Wipond. I apologize if I'm not pronouncing his name right. That's an important book. There's a lot. I love that there's support, but when people are calling these crisis lines, if we disclose too much information, we run the risk of the police coming out and being forced into care. We also run the risk of police violence, or being killed by the police, or being, further traumatized by the police.

So, that is a big issue. There are, there is the trans line and the black health [00:24:00] line. Those are two lines that don't do, that don't police. So those are the two lines that I know that don't participate in the non consensual rescuing, but we don't have anything particular to adopted and displaced people at this point.

It would be great to have a warm line where we could call and we don't run that risk of being police. There is nothing now in terms of support there's not really an organizations either. It's tough because there's not anything unique to us. So that's again why I do this work and get the message out there and hopefully other people are going to start doing the same. I'm feeling hopeful because I get invited into a lot of suicide prevention spaces. So those people are like listening and they're like, amplifying the lived experience and realizing, and they're unlearning. They're like, wow, like I didn't know this.

So that's important too, because people are listening and I am hopeful that. Things are going to work. [00:25:00] We're going to get more support. It's not going to happen overnight, but I do think you'll give it like 10 to 20 years. I think the support will be greater. And I know that's a long time, but things are slow.

Unfortunately.

Haley Radke: Well, let's talk about what we can do now. I know a lot of us who are on socials will receive DMs from people who are struggling and either are struggling and don't say outright, I'm having suicidal thoughts, or they do express some form of desire to not be here anymore. And so what are things we not take on the responsibility for someone else's wellbeing.

Lina Vanegas, MSW: It's hard because a lot of us are not, there has to be like a whole, we could do like a whole training on how to do this, right? So I'm giving snippets, so this is not, it's, it is just a piece, right? So I think the key is we [00:26:00] listen, like listening and having someone be heard and not being judged or stigmatized.

So if I say, I don't wanna be here, Haley. And you were to say, Oh my God, you have to go to the emergency room. Like that kind of thing. And you went like alarmist mode that is not going to make me feel safe. It's going to escalate the situation, right? So instead, if you were like, Oh, I'm so sorry, Lina, that must be really hard.

And you just listen. I think we need to be heard because so often as adopted and displaced people. We are not heard. We're spoken for. So I think the listening piece is really key. The validation piece is really key. Most of us are not trained social workers or therapists or clinicians, right?

So, It's we can't take on that role, and we shouldn't try to take on that role. So we could say, are you safe right now? You can ask them if they're safe. And if they say yeah, I'm safe. I, or if they're [00:27:00] not safe, we could say is there someone that could come over to be with you?

I don't want you to be alone, right? But we also have to be clear with our boundaries because a lot of us are struggling too. So if I reach out to you and you're like, struggling too, and you're like, Lina, I'm really sorry. I hear that you're struggling, but I'm also like struggling too.

And I'm not in a place to have this conversation at this point, or it's too close to home. We have to kind of set some boundaries to in terms of the situation, because you might be dealing with the same thing. And me talking to you might, it might activate you even more. So it's it's a very complex conversation because we want people to be heard, but we don't want to try and fill the role of clinicians.

We're not here to fix anything. I think the key is listening and validating. And really, the thing the message I want people to know is there is nothing wrong with you. If you're struggling with suicidal ideations, if you struggle with them, if you live with them, there's nothing wrong with you. If [00:28:00] you've had suicide attempts, there's nothing wrong with you.

There is nothing wrong with you. The situation, the lived experience that we have with being separated from our families, that is what is wrong. This is simply a side effect of that. So, I want people to know. It's not you. There's nothing wrong with you. It's completely normal to feel these feelings and emotions or however you feel given the lived experience.

There is not one right way or wrong way to feel. And the fact that so many of us live with this or have died from this. It makes a lot of sense given the situation.

Haley Radke: I always want to be like, please stay, like the world needs you and it's better because you're here. And in those kind of things that I think can come across as platitudes, even if we really mean them deep down.

Do you think those things are helpful?

Lina Vanegas, MSW: I don't say any of those things. I know it's [00:29:00] like it's good intentions and I think like the impact is larger because we don't want to, if I come to you and I say, I don't want to be here. And then you said that you're the most well meaning person, right? I could feel guilt.

I'm already ashamed of how I feel and it might make me feel more guilty or when people say, oh, but you have a family or what would your kids do? All that kind of stuff. It just it's more of a burden that people that are struggling don't need to hear. So I think the listening is the most key. Because we're not heard.

We don't really need to be fixed because there's nothing wrong with us. We just need a place to speak. And the more we can speak this out there and not be judged and not be stigmatized and not be, committed. Look, I'm losing the term committed. Committed to psychiatric detention. The more we can normalize these conversations, and I think the less shame and guilt and secrecy people will have, and I think that will go a long way, because if I can just come and say, I [00:30:00] don't want to be here or whatever, and I just met with, I'm so sorry I, that makes complete sense, that kind of thing, it's going to go a long way for me.

Haley Radke: Thank you. I wondered if you might say something like that, because even as I was saying it, I was like, oh, I'm putting an extra weight. Please stay so that I will still feel okay. There's something underlying in that message as well. Okay, this has been super helpful.

Thank you. I know a lot of us know someone in our lives that we have lost to suicide. What are things that you do for yourself to take care of yourself? And how can you recommend for us to do so? And after having a, like a conversation like that in the DMs and, still wanting to take care of ourselves.

Lina Vanegas, MSW: Yeah. I think it's like. What works for me and what works for you might not work for somebody else. So I don't want people to think that what I say is the only way, cause it's [00:31:00] not. So it might resonate with you. It might not. I think boundaries are extremely important. If we can set boundaries and kind of know how much we can give to people at a certain time, cause if I'm struggling, I need to focus on me and I'm not going to be able to help somebody else or I might not have the capacity to listen to them right and hold space. So that's an important thing for me movements key. I love my Peloton. I love to move. I love to sweat. I love that. I have a network of people that I can call who are also adopted. So if I'm struggling, I can reach out and say hey can we talk? I'm having a hard time. Do you have space for me? I've been in and out in therapy my entire life, so that's a piece, but I'm not saying that's the end all and be all because it's just a piece. I've tried alternative, acupuncture that might work for you.

Other things might work for you. I like spending time with my dog and my kids. So, there's a lot of things [00:32:00] that I do, but I think the boundaries are important and just making sure that we're taking care of and we're in a place. And making sure that we're not prioritizing other people over us, because that's kind of as a adopted and displaced people, we're kind of conditioned to do so.

So we need to check in with ourselves and, how am I doing today? What, what can I do for myself? And maybe I need to relax more. Maybe I need to play video games. Maybe I need to journal. Maybe I need to sleep, those kind of things. Being, focusing more on ourselves. I think about boundaries have been a huge thing in terms of the work that I do.

And I think just being a human being, we all need to have boundaries and we need to check in and see where we are. And some days we're just we need to take care of ourselves. And other days we might have a little bit more to give.

Haley Radke: Thank you. You're welcome. Lina, this was so helpful. Please tell us about where we can find your podcast and connect with you online and make sure we find out any upcoming events or [00:33:00] things that you're teaching on because I know people will want to hear more from you.

Lina Vanegas, MSW: Thank you so much, Haley. My podcast, it's a joint podcast with Sol Yaku, and we're available, it's called Rescripting the Narrative. We're available on Spotify and also Apple Music. Lina Leads with Love on Instagram and also on Twitter, and I'm Lina Vanegas on Facebook. My website is under construction.

I, we have an event, Mila and I are, The Empress Han, she goes by The Empress Han on social media. We have an event coming up in November for National Adoption Awareness Month. We do monthly events and this event is going to be a community involvement, community building event. I did research, lived experience research on adopted and displaced people and I am going to do a presentation so I can provide that research to everybody that participated in that. I'd love to connect on socials. Love to see you at my events. And Haley, thank you so much today for this [00:34:00] conversation and, for the space that you create so we can have these conversations.

Haley Radke: Thank you. I appreciate that so much. I went to one of the events that you hosted with Mila and I was I love how you hold space for people. It's so important. So thank you so much for your contributions to the community. It's been lovely talking with you today.

Lina Vanegas, MSW: Thank you so much, Haley. Have a great day.

Haley Radke: Thank you for sticking with us through a very challenging topic. I want to make just a couple of extra notes. What we don't understand is that there's kind of any time we can start feeling in a dark place and things that we can do for ourselves, before that ever happens, is building up our community and contacts and supports [00:35:00] so that we do have a friend to touch base with if things are getting difficult, and I hope that we are making meaningful connections and building out friendships and figuring out how to access therapy and other supports. So we have this rounded community around us. When we're able to do those things, I know when you're in the midst of depression, I mean, getting out of bed and brushing your teeth in the morning feels impossible, so trying to find an internet friend is impossible during those times.

So, I want to encourage you to try and build your community when you're feeling well. And I also want to say that some of what Lina said about supports for adopted [00:36:00] people can feel really disconcerting oh, I can't, there's nowhere for me to call, like there's nowhere. And we do have a variety of listeners listening around the world.

I know that even here in Canada, there are some local crisis lines that are not policed and would be considered warm lines. And so in your area, there may be supports that are safe for you to contact. I have not done research on all of those things all around the world because that is just not within my capacity.

But I don't want to dissuade you from ever calling out for help. If there's something local that might actually be a great support to you. My sister volunteers at a crisis line and we've talked about how safe their [00:37:00] whole setup is for the volunteers, for the folks who call, it is not policed, all of those things.

Like it's a really impressive setup. And so there are places that are doing this well that you may have access to that we just haven't heard of yet. So maybe someone can build a list, a safe list of places for us to go to. And yeah, so I want to encourage you those couple things. Build your community, especially when you're feeling quote unquote, more well, so that you do have friends in place when things are tough, and maybe look for some crisis lines in your area that you think would be safe to send someone when they were in a time of hardship and save it for yourself to [00:38:00] know and save it to have on hand to send to a friend if they need it.

We're sort of all in this together, right? And the more we can do to support our community in this way, the better. I really appreciate Lina teaching us today. I hope that some of the skills we talked about in just listening will be helpful for us and hopefully we never have to use them. But we, you have it in your back pocket.

You don't have to ignore the DM from someone who is in crisis and you will know how to just listen. And acknowledge what they're going through is normal. I'm sending my love to you. Thank you for listening to Adoptee Voices here on Adoptees On. And let's talk again next Friday.

Okay. If you listen to the very end, I'm including [00:39:00] a little outtake here. When I recorded this, I was very sick and I don't know how my voice held up, but Lina, bless her. She got to see me blow my nose, cough down tea, like it was going out of business. It was a whole thing. So that's my comment here. At the end of her, here's how I set that up to her.

You're really going to get to know me today, Lina, and I'm very sorry.

Lina Vanegas, MSW: No, I'm looking forward to it.

Haley Radke: I keep it together.

Lina Vanegas, MSW: It's totally fine. There is no such thing as keeping it together.

It's all a facade.

Haley Radke: It is a facade. I'm excellent at a facade. We all are.