265 Louise & Sarah
/Transcript
Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/265
Haley Radke: [00:00:00] This podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing stated on it, either by its hosts or any guests, is to be construed as psychological, medical, or legal advice.
You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. I'm Haley Radke. You might know today's guests and recognize their voices from their podcast, Adoption, The Making of Me. Louise Brown and Sarah Reinhart are here! Today, we hear about how their friendship started, they dish about some of the fights they've had, and how they've sustained their close friendship.
We also talk about all the books they've read in community with their audience, and which ones have been most impactful on their understanding of the impact of adoption. I think you're going to love this conversation. Before we get started, I wanted to personally invite you to join our Patreon community [00:01:00] over on adopteeson. com slash community, which helps support you and also the show to support more adoptees around the world. We wrap up with some recommended resources and as always, links to everything we'll be talking about today are on the website, adopteeson. com. Let's listen in. I'm so pleased to welcome to AdopteeZone, Louise Brown.
Hi, Louise.
Louise Browne: Hi, how are you? Great. Good to see you.
Haley Radke: You too. And Sarah Reinhart. Welcome, Sarah.
Sarah Reinhardt: Thank you. Happy to be here. It's finally happening.
Haley Radke: Listen, fellow podcasters. I always say it's one of my favorite things because you get it. Yes. Yeah. You just get it. And our setup was so fast today. So well done all.
I would love it if we could hear a little more of your personal stories. Sarah, do you want to start?
Sarah Reinhardt: Sure. [00:02:00] I am a baby scoop era adoptee. I was born in St. Louis, but I found out later that was just kind of by chance because my birth mother was her water broke on the ascent out of JFK. So she spent the whole flight in labor.
She too was adopted and she was with her adoptive mother who knew nothing about her pregnancy. The jury's out on whether or not. She knew she was pregnant. She told me she knew, but some of the things that I've since found out make me wonder, you know, like she only gained seven pounds. There was never a prenatal visit.
I think I might have been premature. I don't know. I don't that. I don't know. But at any rate, I was born. In St. Louis, her mother said you are not keeping this baby and [00:03:00] she was not allowed to hold me. So I was taken away and I know that I spent five to six weeks in foster care and then I was adopted into with my parents and I've raised about two hours away from St. Louis and in a smallish town called Jefferson City. And then my parents, two and a half years later adopted my brother, no, no biological relation. And then when he was five months old, they discovered they were pregnant with twins. They did an x- ray in 1969 or whatever it was to discover there were twins.
So then there was the four of us. And when I was seven, and it was pretty, as far as I can remember, I don't remember a lot, but it was a pretty decent seven years and then my parents got divorced and then probably the year leading up to that wasn't great. I remember fighting and [00:04:00] tension and my dad left for awhile.
Then he came back and then they tried again. And then suddenly my mom was gone. And then that was kind of that. And they didn't give us much of an explanation. Then we would see her. She moved about 30 miles away and went back to school and two of us would go every other weekend. So I would see her every other week, briefly lived with her, but that didn't work out.
And then she got remarried and moved to Miami, Florida. And then when I was 12, my dad got remarried. And so then step siblings entered the picture. So there was a lot of, you know, when I look back now, for many, many years, I, you know, because there weren't therapists that talked about relinquishment trauma or adoption trauma or any of that, I put a lot of stock into the divorce.
Everybody [00:05:00] focused on how that affected and not the adoption stuff. So I conflated a lot for many, many, many years, but that's my story in a nutshell. Obviously, there's a lot deeper stuff. I, when I was 15, I ran away from home and went to Miami and lived with my mom and my stepfather that short lived. He wasn't there for long.
And then from there, I went to New York and then New York to L. A. I just kind of bounced around and moved around. Sometimes I think that's because I was sort of born up in the air. You know, it's hard to ground me, so it took my child to ground me. It took having a baby to have any kind of grounding in my life.
And, and that was when I, that was, that was the first time I, as many of us, Louise and I've talked to a lot of people on the podcast, it seems to be that pivotal moment in which you go, wait a minute, where do I come from? Hang on a second. And then I sought out my [00:06:00] birth family when my son was a baby, found my birth mother, which is why I know my origin story.
They had been wait, she and her, my siblings had all been waiting for me to find them because she did not want to give me away. She, she kept her name with the registry all those years, hoping I would find her one day. And I did, so they just welcome me like in a, in a big way, but I, you know, not knowing anything felt guilt, loyalty, all that stuff and always kept her at an arm's length, which is a big regret that I have now because she passed in 2009 and it was way before I am where I am. And so I was close to her, but always not that close and always pushed her away. So that's a sadness. And my birth father. He did not know about me. He got drafted into Vietnam. They had dated in college and then they broke up before she knew she was pregnant.
He got [00:07:00] drafted into Vietnam. He had horrible PTSD. I have siblings through him, but I recently found out his death was caused by suicide. I didn't know that until just a few weeks ago. So that's another piece that lately I've kind of been grappling with wow, suicide. There was a suicide and suicide runs in families and that's me in a nutshell.
Haley Radke: That's a lot of compounding trauma factors. Oh my goodness. Yes. Wow. Thank you for sharing that Sarah.
Louise, do you want to share yours?
Louise Browne: It's interesting hearing Sarah's differently you know what I mean? Listening, I'm also a host. I was like, I wanted to say, oh, so I'm Louise. I was also a baby scoop adoptee.
1968 was born in Colorado. My bio mom, Linda was a young woman, 19-years-old. She could not [00:08:00] financially keep me. I really think that's what it came down to. I think she wanted to keep me and had a lot of pressure as I'm getting to know. I recently have been reading some things and just discovering some things through some biological relatives, her sister and others, or I just think she had a lot of talking in her ear about how it would be better to give me away. To give me up to relinquish me, she'd be giving me a father and a mother. A father was very important to her because her father was not in the picture and most of her teen years and that kind of thing. And she went through a lot of hard stuff in her teen years. So she was her letters. I have some letters from her and they're all very they're very sweet.
They're innocent about, you know, This is going to be so good for the baby. She didn't know if I was a boy or a girl and all these things. And I think it really affected her later. She's passed away. She passed away in 1975 when I was in the second grade. So I've never known her, but I know a lot about her.
I was adopted about four [00:09:00] days after that's what I can piece together. And I'm like, Sarah, I'm still trying to get like the information from here to there, but I do know I was with my biological mom for at least three days in the hospital. And I have pictures of that. And that's kind of one of those things where you're like, oh my God, I was this person to somebody else.
And then went directly to my family. I do not think I was in foster care very long. I think there was maybe a day or two of just transitioning me. It was a private adoption. I went to live with my parents and an older brother, five years older, who is their biological son. My mother could not have more babies because she had Rh negative blood and carried a full term baby two years before me that died that she had to deliver and there was no help for her.
For that, you know, there was no counseling. I don't think anybody ever talked to her about it because she started talking about it before she passed away in 2018. She [00:10:00] started to bring it up and talk about a little bit and that's some push down stuff for years. Right? So my heart never knew that it was a weird thing.
How you come into a family and never really know why you're in that family. So, I had a pretty idealistic adoption, as they say, the good adoption. I think you used the word when we met with you, a compatible adoption. Got along very well with my family, especially my father. My mother as well. I pushed back a lot.
I thought, I think growing up, I thought I was very just off or weird and kept it to myself. Like, why aren't I fitting in? I do everything to fit in, you know, observe, watch, mimic my older brother. I was in awe of him, all my relatives. And even to this day, I feel like I'm sort of a person who keeps the family together.
My adopted family, I'm sort of a fixer still, even though I try not to be so much anymore. I'm aware of it, but it's, if I don't do that, maybe they'll leave me [00:11:00] or I won't have them. But I never knew I had all these feelings, probably so many adoptees, right? We've interviewed so many people and it's the same story.
I was sort of, I'd say heavily in the fog. I wouldn't say sort of heavily in the fog until two years ago, three years ago, but when my son was born, like Sarah mentioned, when she had her child, that's when I really was like, wait a second. I mean, I really got close to him didn't want to ever leave his side probably over parented him was too needy You know all the all the stuff we do and I was really curious then okay I didn't know my biological mother had died.
I knew nothing about myself so I thought oh I should look and then I was busy and I didn't look but my biological family found me on my mother's side so it's one of those things that like you think you want to look and then you don't do it and then somebody finds you and you're like, wait a second, I'm not ready for this. Right? So my biological grandmother was dying of Parkinson's disease and [00:12:00] they had been looking for me for about 10 years. I mean, like on and off and paid a lot of money to agencies and Colorado was a private adoption. It was just very hard to figure out who I was. So they found me. I was excited about it, overwhelmed, nervous, went into reunion very quickly with no, I mean, I wish I knew Sarah at the time or somebody, but no knowledge of what to do with this because I wanted to meet my grandmother because she, you know, I was the healing part for her.
So it was all about that. You know, she's lost her daughter. So long ago, tragically, they found me on the missing link. Everybody knew about me, not everybody in the family, but the closest family knew about me and had wondered how I was or I was missed me. So I went into a very excited, but then did the pullback thing, right?
So went in, got to know everybody, then pulled myself quickly back from it all. Probably hurt a lot of people along the way, not meaning to just kind of disconnecting. [00:13:00] I had a lot of guilt about it. My parents guilted me about it, but then started to open up about it. But even then I had my own internal guilt about it.
Oh, I shouldn't really talk about it or upset anybody. Let me balance these two things for years. For years, I went through that. So recently both my parents have passed away, my adopted parents and you know, I grapple with that. I miss them a lot. I was really close to them, but I sort of feel like we started to just talk about this right before the end.
And so. And, you know, in my wishful thinking, I think that they'd be happy I'm doing what I'm doing and learning about who I am. And I just go with that because I want to know who I am and it's time. So that's my story.
Haley Radke: Oh, thank you both. There's all these things I want to dig into too, but I'm going to save it.
I'm curious. I think the story is [00:14:00] that your sons, who first grounded you, are also who brought you together. Is that right?
Sarah Reinhardt: Mm hmm. Yes. That's how we met. Our sons were in school together.
Louise Browne: It was like basketball after school. Sarah was super cool. I'd see her hanging out and I was like, Oh, I got to know her.
We had a friend who introduced us as well. So.
Haley Radke: Okay. So how many years ago was that?
Louise Browne: 2007 or eight, seven or eight.
Haley Radke: Okay. So the people who listen to you want to know, have you had any major friendship bumps in the road? Because Adoptees are very good at cutting people off and, or pushing people away before we get pushed away.
So, how has your friendship gone? Have you had any, you've got a [00:15:00] business together? I mean.
Louise Browne: Haley, these are good questions.
Sarah Reinhardt: Really good question.
Louise Browne: I'd say, yes, I think we, well, I mean, we, first of all, Sarah and I owned a business together that was a very stressful business, right? Sarah was like, we had a gourmet ice cream truck, the food truck in Los Angeles while we're raising sons and we're both single moms.
I mean, they had active fathers, but just that pressure alone would bend a lot of people. And I don't know. I think we, we did have some bumps, but I think we kind of gave each other a little grace too. Sometimes we'd be like, all right, because if we really love each other.
Sarah Reinhardt: We definitely had a connection that seemed that it wouldn't break no matter. I mean, I feel like I probably pushed Louise away more than she pushed me away And so if not for her sort of steadfast like I'm not going anywhere even though it was that wasn't a verbal, it was just more of a show up [00:16:00] by her action, I probably would have been out the door.
Louise Browne: You know why? Because I'm the good adoptee and Sarah's the poor soul.
I'm the, I'm the fixer loyal to a fault. And Sarah's the I'm pushing you away. But, you know, we both have the same stuff. You know, it's been really actually cool about it now. We just tell each other, we love each other and just, I don't know, this podcast, I feel like I know her so well and vice versa that I'm like, you know, I don't know, I just give her grace because I'm, I have my own issues too.
Yeah. That's it, right? What's your thought?
Sarah Reinhardt: I, no, I, I agree. I was just thinking of, we had, you know, two pretty big bumps in this whole time and we really managed to get through them. One of them was the truck during, during that period of time and we managed to, you know, we rose above it. We talked it through, [00:17:00] we got through it and then another time was, I don't know, what was it, six months ago?
Louise Browne: Or so yeah, when we started to just get super busy with the podcast and you know, we're both working full time, you know, because you did this for a living and we're working full time trying to have a podcast super busy. And we were just like, but we stayed on the phone.
We're like, we talked to Louisa.
Sarah Reinhardt: Yeah, I was ready to hang up. And Louise was like, no, let's like, we're, talking this through.
Louise Browne: I love that you give me credit. I think you were more mature in that one than I was.
Sarah Reinhardt: I think I was more mature in the first one. This one, I think you were more mature.
Louise Browne: Yeah, we have, we worked it out, you know, I mean, it's pretty cool because we've done two really ambitious projects together and I couldn't do them. This is interesting. A friend of mine asked me recently, would you do this on your own. I'm like, I would never have done either of these businesses on my own and not without Sarah because [00:18:00] Sarah has her own close friends. I have my own close friends. We have some mutual friends, but she's the person I somehow do these projects with. It's like we have that.
Sarah Reinhardt: No, my son says that, you know, he's mom, you and Louise really have like something. I mean, so many people say that, so that, that it's our dynamic with each other that makes it work.
You know, both. The truck and the podcast. There's just some sort of magic that the two of us have together that on our own we wouldn't have.
Louise Browne: Yeah.
Haley Radke: Do you remember the first time you disclosed to each other that you were adopted?
Sarah Reinhardt: Very well. We were playing pool with our mutual friend.
Louise Browne: Shout out to Karen.
Sarah Reinhardt: Karen. I, I guess she introduced, I mean, we'd see each other at school, but she was the one who put together. It's the three of us go out. And so we went out and we were playing pool. And [00:19:00] I don't remember exactly how it came out, but we were both like, I'm adopted, I'm adopted too. And then, then Karen was kind of. The third wheel as it were in that.
Louise Browne: We were like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah, me too. Blah, blah, blah. You know, Karen still jokes about it to this day. She's I was there. I should have just gone home.
Haley Radke: Finally, you're the majority in the room. What does that mean?
Sarah Reinhardt: I mean, really?
Haley Radke: Okay, so you decide to start a podcast together. I want to hear how that came about. And you guys always read a few chapters of an adoption themed book before you share your interview with the guest. How did you come to start the show? And how did you pick The Primal Wound for your first book?
Sarah Reinhardt: COVID happened. I had moved to Kansas City from Los Angeles, Louise had moved to the central coast.
And we were just, we had a lot of idle time, I guess, even though we're both [00:20:00] working, it still was, you know, how early COVID was. And Louise was like, you know, we should start, we should start a podcast and maybe we should do it about, you know, women in their fifties with second acts or something. And I was like, it doesn't really resonate.
So I just said, let's do something about adoption. That's something we both know. And the book idea just came, came about. Neither one of us had ever read anything. And I had been hearing about The Primal Wound. Somehow, you know, when things just. Just happen when they're meant to happen and there's signs that keep coming your way that book just kept crossing my path so I said we just decided to try this sort of book group aspect of the podcast and that's because that's the only one that I knew that I'd ever heard about I didn't hear about any other books?
Cause who was, I wasn't looking as far as I was concerned. Adoption was a wonderful thing. We were lucky and chosen and, and that's just the way it was. And that was the [00:21:00] attitude when we started the podcast.
Louise Browne: I had had The Primal Wound given to me, I think by a marriage counselor or something. It sat on my shelf for years, my, with my ex husband in our living room.
And I think I threw it away. So when Sarah brought it up, I go, Oh, not that book. I remember that book. I'm scared of that book. And that's kind of, we're that naive. Honestly, it was kind of, I kind of say it's a good book to start with. It sounds because I know adoptees sometimes have problems with it not being written by an adoptee, but it's not.
It's sort of a nice entrance into it.
Haley Radke: If you, if you like having all your problems exposed to you, in one shot, sure.
Louise Browne: We went through this, exactly, right? It was like, but, you know, because we've read many things since, that I think would have been a harder thing to tackle, right? I don't know, it was hard as it was.
Sarah Reinhardt: Yeah, I, mean, I think it, I think that that we chose that book because it was the only one that I'd ever heard about adoption. I'd never heard anything else. [00:22:00] I'd never heard anything but positive stuff about being adopted. And but then I read about that book. I was like, huh, there's, we should, we should tackle this.
And then, then we did.
Louise Browne: I still remember texting Sarah from the back porch going, oh my God, like two chapters in maybe what, like rereading things like this makes sense about me, you know what I mean? Do you resonate with this would be we're kind of like it was it was weird being in that position I don't know at that age Mm hmm, right.
Haley Radke: You kind of feel naive like what how did I not know this?
Yes, so as you're reading Primal Wound chapter by chapter, you're also interviewing Adopted people and I think you do a couple of other constellation members at first. What are the things? That are sort of like, let's call it clearing out some of the fog for [00:23:00] you. Is it more the book, is it more you're texting each other being like, can you believe this?
I'm just like this. You're just like this. Or is it hearing story after story of people that have unpacked a few things, maybe a little further along the way than you? What was it? Is it all of those things?
Sarah Reinhardt: I think it's a combination of all of those things, because you're right. In the beginning, we were like, yeah, you have a relative adopted come on the show.
I mean, we really literally were just we didn't know anybody. I mean, we knew other adoptees. They didn't all want to come on. They didn't want to come on. And so our first guest after the two of us talked to each other was, was a woman who was the sister of someone that I lived across the street from. And, then, so I think, I think initially, like the, our first guest isn't necessarily unfogged. I don't think I think, you know, still thinks of adoption is a wonderful, [00:24:00] wonderful thing. But as we went on, then we, I don't know, it must have been like midway through the first season. We're like, each chapter we read, we're like, oh, my God. And then, you know, kind of connecting all starting to connect the dots.
And then and then I think we had a few guests that were really gracious with us because they were further along than us. So they were very gracious to have been on with us and been patient with us and, you know, saw us going through this. Coming out of it ourselves.
Louise Browne: We had a lot of support from the adoptee community right away.
People are kind. And I think also one thing Sarah and I remember a conversation we had where we, I think we are going to have a birth mother on and she canceled something happened, but we, we both said, you know, we should just speak to what we know because it is a sensitive subject too right. So what do we know?
We are adoptees. We can say we're an adoptee. We can speak to this. Even if we all have different feelings or different ways, we come about it. And so we narrowed it [00:25:00] down pretty quickly that maybe we shouldn't be having the whole triad on. And that's not our role. And just some things will come up. I think we started reading more articles. I mean, just as it went through, we narrowed it down pretty quick.
Sarah Reinhardt: And guests would tell us, you know, we have, we had a guest say, you know, you should read Journey of the Adopted Self. And, you know, I know it's talked about in the Primal Wound as well. Betty Jean Lifton is. Yes, I think there was a moment when we had an adoptive father on and he said something and I, I really feel like that might have been my.
My coming out of the fog, like really no turning back moment when he said they celebrated gotcha day and it was just, I had such a visceral reaction to that and I think in that shortly after that, I think we said okay, we're just going to have adoptees on. Yeah, going going further. Yeah, but that I really now that I remember that was it where I [00:26:00] just it probably showed on my face too.
And I think I think I don't know. Yeah, we don't we don't celebrate that or, you know, something. So, yeah. And then that was it. No, no turning back.
Louise Browne: We don't even say it for our dogs. Really?
Sarah Reinhardt: No. Yeah.
Haley Radke: Exactly. Louise, do you have a moment like that? Or do you remember something?
Louise Browne: It was pretty much the same moment. Sarah and I were texting each other oh, and then should we air this? I mean, he was a sweet person who was open. You know, he was open actually to us talking to him about it. And he said, I want to learn about this because of the situation he was in. And I think that's when we kind of got on the phone with each other and said okay, we need to focus on our feelings about this now and, and what we know. And we don't want to do that.
Sarah Reinhardt: It's been, you know, years and years and years of everybody else's voices. It's adoptee voices that[00:27:00] we want to hear and have told and be a part of, you know.
Louise Browne: Even though we were in the fog, I do think Sarah and I throughout our lives. We've talked about it. We've had moments where I mean, I used to try to tell people, you know, what it's like when you're adopted and people don't listen.
So then you're kind of just quiet oh, you know, where you have. So we started to get stronger with our voices okay, hello, been saying things for years. And now I'd like to say things, you know, and then not be so worried about everybody else's feelings, really. For me, and yeah, maybe for Sarah, too.
So, you know, we're always worried about everybody else. So.
Haley Radke: You've got over 80 episodes, I think, right at the time we're recording this. And I've, done a couple hundred. Well, you've talked to so many adoptees between all of us. And over the years, I've been podcasting for seven years now. I'm going to call myself that I feel like I've [00:28:00] become radicalized. So I definitely was critical of adoption in the beginning. I don't think I was fully like realized all the complexities behind everything and the money machine and all those kinds of things. I think it's amazing when folks can listen to you and hear this progression through your season.
I think it's. Through your seasons. I think it's happened with several adoptee podcasters that I've spoken to.
Louise Browne: Yes, sir.
Haley Radke: But I want to ask you about some of the books you've read and let's sort of, I don't know, rank them, but express to me what things you learned through them that sort of pushed you more and more into the place that you are now and your feelings about adoption?
Okay, so Primal Wound very much was eye opening, obviously. Did you read Journey of the Adoptee Self [00:29:00] next? The adopted self?
Sarah Reinhardt: Yes, that was our second season. That was our second season.
Haley Radke: Okay, so that's by Betty Jean Lifton, who is an adoptee. And how was that experience for you, reading that?
Sarah Reinhardt: Big.
Louise Browne: Yeah, that, that was the one that really I, we got depressed, like we both suffered a little bit of I mean, that's when it started to really be emotional, like heavy for us.
I mean, I think it took emotional toll on both of us a little bit too, just okay, whoa, maybe that's why it wasn't a good one to start with is what I was implying before, because it really was. I mean, I just remember reading parts of it and being like, I can't finish this tonight, this chapter. And we'd only read like one, we read in real time.
That's one thing we really do on our show is we do not read ahead. So that way when we record, it's, it's real, it's raw. We read a couple hours before we record, which I think comes off better than if we're trying to backtrack or [00:30:00] something, but there's times that we're like, oh my gosh, it was really hard on both of us.
Sarah Reinhardt: Well it because it was somebody who with lived experience. Yeah. And Nancy Verrier, she was an observer. She wasn't, she was, didn't have lived experience, so it was a different mm-hmm. a different thing. And it was, it was it, you know, it was reading like, wow, this is how I felt my whole life. Yes. Never could give voice to it.
Never had anyone to talk to about it. It all made sense. It finally, it finally made sense. Yeah.
Haley Radke: Then you went to The Mistress's Daughter by A. M. Holmes, which is a memoir. So good.
Sarah Reinhardt: Love that book.
Louise Browne: We did a memoir series. I was going to say that. Memoir season. Yeah. Season. That was probably, I don't know, favorites or not.
Just that book. Everyone should just read that book anyway.
Sarah Reinhardt: She's such a great writer too. You know, she's just. She's just [00:31:00] I just love her. She just is brilliant with words, you know, and put the way she puts her words together and she's got a lot of humor and she's so. Just so brilliant, you know, and there was
Louise Browne: some laughter too.
We needed some laughter. Honestly after season 2 it was nice to have a little like levity once in a while
Haley Radke: So I know that this next one I'm super biased cuz Megan Culhane Galbraith is my friend I love her so you read the Guild of the Infant Savior, which is so creative and different.
Sarah Reinhardt: Oh my God, just so interesting and yeah, that's where we really, you know, what we learned about.
She's a true artist, you know, and a historian.
Louise Browne: We learned a lot about just some of the things that we didn't know about the mothers with the colleges and all those experimental things. Like she really did some,
Haley Radke: yeah, learn the whole, learn home economics on a borrowed baby.
Sarah Reinhardt: Yes.
Louise Browne: Super impressed with that.
Well, we love her too, but [00:32:00] yeah, it was, I mean, these are, I feel like should be on every adoptee shelf.
Haley Radke: So, you guys, I'm so sad. You can't see my bookshelf. I have a hundred and seventy adoptee authored books right behind me in this very room. So,
Sarah Reinhardt: oh my god. Wow.
Haley Radke: I'm so excited when you read something adoptee authored because I also have this thing of who gets to tell our stories. And I'll ask you about that once we finish this list. So I have American Baby next. Is that right? Or am I missing one?
Sarah Reinhardt: We had Damon's. Damon Davis.
Haley Radke: Okay. Damon. Mm hmm. So also fellow podcaster.
Sarah Reinhardt: Yes. Yes. And you know, he, he, his book, he tells, he writes his book exactly as he tells his story, which, which we had had him on the podcast. So it was kind of nice to actually just read his words. That we'd heard.
Haley Radke: Yeah, I remember when I read his book. I heard it in his voice because [00:33:00] listening to his show. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Louise Browne: Yes. How he talks. Right? Yeah.
Haley Radke: Yeah. I love him.
Louise Browne: So distinctive.
Haley Radke: And so American Baby.
Louise Browne: Yeah, American Baby. I was going to say when, when you were saying rate them, I think American Baby, everyone should read not just adoptees. I think it's the history.
Sarah Reinhardt: Right? I think it's that, it's that, that, that book that would maybe shine the light on the horrendous practices of adoption. You know, it's not what I like about it is that it's that she is just historically reporting on the facts. She's not. It's not her experience.
It's a reporter's lens. Just the facts, ma'am. And then highlighting this, tragic. Horribly sad story of a mother, you know, who didn't want to give up her baby. I mean, it's just something that everybody should read to know the history of the [00:34:00] privacy laws and the baby scoop era and all of that stuff and then stuff that is still going on.
Louise Browne: I feel like people could read it too. Does that make sense? I've told a few people about it. I have a friend that's going to read it with her book club coming up and they're not adoptees, but I think that it doesn't offend. You know how it's kind of like this. Well, okay, great. Well, you're an adoptee.
You're putting this in my face type of thing. It's not this is somebody who writes for the New York Times and other publications. This is a history just reading about anything else we need to learn about, about people who have been compromised or whatever. Right. So I feel like it's a book for everybody, even though it's incredible for adoptees.
I just feel powerful about it.
Haley Radke: Lends more credibility to it.
Sarah Reinhardt: Well, that's what I was going to say in, terms of out in the public, in the world, right? If you want to tell somebody about what, the adoption experience is like as an adoptee or as someone in [00:35:00] the triad, you know, being Margaret, the mother in the book and David, the son, it's not coming from, I, know that there's some criticisms that adoptees are angry and get over it.
And, you know, I feel like this book would give people the do you know what I'm trying to say? I'm sorry.
Louise Browne: It would actually give them the reasons that they might be angry. They'll go oh, they should be angry. This is not okay. Right? What she's saying. It's putting it out there. I think I just think it's a powerful book. I mean, she's
Sarah Reinhardt: putting it out there from a journalist journalist, someone who's a journalist and telling the story as an observer as a journalist. Not like. Nancy as a adoptive mother, you know, Gabrielle is none of those things. She saw a story. She went after it. And in that, you know, in a cinema verite kind of way, it unfolded. And, it was super powerful as a result of that. And I think , it's a good vehicle to get the message out in a way [00:36:00] that isn't just an adoptee. Being emotional. If that's how people look at us
Haley Radke: And Sarah, you're a journalist, right? You're trained as a journalist.
Sarah Reinhardt: What? No, I used to do some magazine writing a long time ago, and I'm a writer.
I did like screenwriting and TV writing and now I'm doing like essay writing. Storyteller. Yes.
Haley Radke: Yes. All right. And now you're reading actually by another adoptive mother, The Baby Thief, the story of Georgia Tann, who lots of people don't know about. And wow. I mean, so eyeopening.
Louise Browne: It's really a hard read.
It's we were like, why can't we move on to an adoptee book right now? Cause we, had our Patreons vote on our season, which was kind of neat. It's also very important. I mean, it's just so horrific and really Georgia Tann is, you know, she's the reason a lot of adoptee practices, adoption practices are the way they are [00:37:00] now in the United States from that historical happening with her.
So it's an important book as well.
Haley Radke: Like closed records.
Sarah Reinhardt: Yep. Right.
Louise Browne: Closed records, the narrative. Just the narrative and she really it's called The Baby Thief because she stole children and sold them and horrible besides that horrible practices within that. I mean, just it's and it's, it's not a fun read.
That's for sure. None of these are fun reads, but it's a hard read.
Haley Radke: No, that's what I find too. When I'm reading,
Louise Browne: I was listening to a smutty type thing last night on my walking on the walk. I'm like, Oh, it feels so good to just listen to this because it's deep work, right? It's
Sarah Reinhardt: yeah. Yeah. I did hear they are making a movie out of The Baby Thief.
Louise Browne: Yeah. God.
Sarah Reinhardt: So. There will be someone I work with actually had [00:38:00] said, Oh, I didn't realize Georgia Tann was a real person. She'd read a novel where they used Georgia Tann, used her real name, but she thought she was just a character in a book. She was a real person. So, yeah, interesting.
Haley Radke: I wonder what impact that will have on the public's view of adoption then. Just depending on the framing.
Sarah Reinhardt: It just feels you know what it feels like it almost these times, if I can use this analogy, maybe it's it feels like the, you know, how in the 60s, 1960s with all the, you know, civil rights issues and this and that, and it still has been another 50 some odd years and it's still, you know, slowly, I feel like that's what's going to happen with us.
There can be a ton of information out there. It's, just going to take awhile to, really have people admit it, I guess, is really what I'm sure, you know. [00:39:00] I think we talked about, you know, we've, we've definitely triggered some adoptive parents with, our podcast. And I don't think you get triggered without knowing that there's some truth to it.
And I, so I think the louder we are, the better there, there's so many of us out there talking about it. But it's so ingrained. It's so ingrained think that it's such a wonderful thing.
Louise Browne: We see things now. And I was all bent out of shape recently about a Dateline, right? Because it was a Dateline and and they were highlighting the boy who killed his adoptive mother or whatever.
And he was adopted from another country but it was all about this bad kid. And I saw such a different story with it about, because after watching, and this is Dateline, but I was like, going to write to Dateline. Hello, you need to investigate the other. So it's, it's funny how you see things now, movies we used to like things in the media, you know, the Hollywood [00:40:00] ending of reunion or just, you know, movies that I used to be like, oh, that's such a good movie. Now I'm like, Oh. No, it's not.
Haley Radke: So many, so many things are ruined.
Sarah Reinhardt: I know so many things. I mean, I used to love, I love Juno when it came out. Now I'm just, yeah. Yeah.
Haley Radke: Yeah. So what are your thoughts then? It has to be explored a little bit when you were talking about American Baby, about who gets to tell our stories. And why isn't it accepted when an adoptee is sharing that story? You know, Megan's book, we're calling her a historian. She's uncovering some of these same expose things that are credible about the Domicon babies, for example, you know,
Louise Browne: I don't know that people want to hear about [00:41:00] not fitting in and families or that you were depressed or the things, you know, I really think people do think still that babies are blank slates. And if you give them love, love is a great thing. There's nothing wrong with giving a baby love and a home, but I think that they don't want to hear that the child's going to have internal.
Everybody wants to know who they are and where you're from. It's a natural thing. So even if you're in the fog or not in the fog, you're an adoptee. You wonder who you are, right? And you have your almost all of us have the same patterns and little things that we do. That's why adoptees meet each other and go oh and you just get each other and you can't explain that to other people.
And I think. It's a really hard thing, unless you've been through it, how do you explain it in a way that people can hear it without turning them off or making them feel bad or because it would be nice to have conversations where people could talk and not be angry. I mean, we've had adopted parents write us who are very thank you for [00:42:00] right for doing this.
This helps me because they're, reacting differently in their home to their child and we've had the exact opposite. So.
Sarah Reinhardt: But to your question about who decides who gets to tell those stories, I mean, I guess it's just an individual decision. You know, we, when we started off with Nancy, then from there, we thought, well, we're, we're going to do read all the adoptee books.
And then American Baby came along and that kind of opened up the door to Georgia Tann that you know, well, we had Patreons that wanted to us to read that book. Again you know, maybe. Maybe we should just focus on adoptee voices, but I do think there are other if we want the message out into the mainstream.
Maybe we have to be open to also reading about. I don't [00:43:00] know that I would do the. In terms of I don't know that I want to maybe in retrospect, I understand people's beef with Nancy Verrier book. I understand that beef. I don't hold that in the same category as American Baby again because because it was a, it was a journalist telling a story.
If that makes sense. It wasn't an adoptive mother. With her own feelings about it, if that makes sense.
Haley Radke: I know you haven't read it on air. I don't know if you've read The Girls Who Went Away. I think that's
Louise Browne: on our stack.
Sarah Reinhardt: That's one of the next.
Haley Radke: Okay, because this is a story of all these, the baby scoop era. Voices of mothers of loss. And it is written by Ann Fessler, who is an adoptee. Right. And so that's the twist on, oh, it's an adoptee is going to tell the mother's story, right? And I think it's really interesting and nothing [00:44:00] wrong or right either way. It's just up for discussion. And I agree. There's so much criticism on The Primal Wound for that.
And I mean, I used to tell people like that was the book that I mean, we recommended it so many times on the show. And now we have so many other resources. It's Yes, there's riches everywhere.
Sarah Reinhardt: It's yeah, it's kind of the ground floor, isn't it? Or the entryway into it
Haley Radke: for a lot of people. Absolutely.
Louise Browne: And I'm great. I'm grateful to that entryway, because if I didn't read it, I wouldn't be where I'm at. And so I think there's room for a lot of it, right? You were saying that you're radicalized, which I think happens, right? I do, I also think what Sarah is saying, you have to have a lot of different ways of communicating out there with other people about this topic.
And sometimes I feel we're all in our own little, in general, just in the country. We're all in our own little vacuums, right? Let's [00:45:00] talk here. Let's talk here. But I do I did like American Baby because it was like something I could send to my brother could read that and be like, oh, wow, this went on. And then he and I could have conversations that are different. If that makes sense. And I don't know that he would get it if I sent him Journey to the Adopted Self. He'd be like, I'm not reading that. You know, it wouldn't relate. So I think for adoptees there's reading and for everybody there's reading and maybe eventually it's all the same. I don't know if that, if I'm making sense, but
Haley Radke: I'm so. Deep in, I have no concept anymore of which book did which thing to me because, when you read so much, like I, before I have a guest on, if they have a book or books, I've read them. It like I have read so much My friends make fun of me because sometimes I'll hesitate calling myself an adoption [00:46:00] expert and they're like, okay who else has read that many books on adoption besides adoption scholars.
So yeah. Anyway, thank you for your thoughts on that. I know. Yeah, people have all kinds of opinions. My last thing before we do recommended resources, as I did want to touch on representation, and, you know, we are folks with a platform, and we've built it, and we give people the mic, and when I started, in my first season, I was very hesitant on interviewing anyone who had a kind of a different experience than me, whether that was someone who is internationally adopted, or I mean, most of the guests I had were white people adopted to white families.
And we talked about the complexities of that. Not all, but most. And so, over the last years, I've [00:47:00] worked so hard to spread my platform to many more people. And I have people apply to be on the show all the time, which I'm sure you do too. And there's also this responsibility, I feel, for vetting people and not platforming harmful people.
So, do you guys have thoughts on that? What you've seen in the space, what you've been working towards doing things about just making sure we are sharing our platform in a responsible way. And I think we have a duty to the community to make sure we hear from all voices.
Louise Browne: I feel like we've had a couple people on where we were like, you know, where we're like, Oh.
Should we tell that story or you kind of catch yourself mid interview? Oh, you know, but then we're like, this is their story. Everybody has a story to tell. Right? So I think we've been pretty good about, [00:48:00] we would like to get anybody's perspective. We've tried to get actually more perspectives and I've interviewed people from all over, but even recently, we had a guy on from Scotland and some people are like, well, I don't understand them as well, but people in Scotland do.
And they like to hear from the Scottish people as well, or whoever it is. Right? We have had some situations where we're not sure it's going to be what we want to say, but we're like, okay. If we ask the right questions and don't put our opinion on it, they're still allowed to tell their story. We haven't had any real haters. Well, Sarah can speak.
Sarah Reinhardt: Well, not since not since we went adoptee only, but definitely in our, in our first season. This is how naive we really were. We had a adoptive mother on who had a savior complex, and we trashed the interview. We did not didn't that even and that was pre fog, honestly. [00:49:00] And but we knew this is not
Louise Browne: what made us both feel weird.
Actually, just internally as adoptees. And so I
Sarah Reinhardt: mean, we've definitely I mean, we've had a guest here and there that, you know, maybe is what's the word I'm looking for that angry, rightfully angry, but they have the right. We try to make a safe space for people so that if it seems like it's going to go south, you know, we try to, we try to give room at the same time of reigning it in, if that makes sense.
But. Yeah, I mean, there's so many voices out there and and it's we like you said, I mean, we a lot of our listeners are similar to us in age and the baby scoop era white women, you know, we have a that's the majority of the people that reach out to us and how do we get to the other to other voices?[00:50:00]
It's kind of hard to get to those other voices sometimes because of who we are. Maybe I don't know
Louise Browne: I always think I wonder who's listening that isn't saying they're listening, right? So when you put a podcast out you're thinking I wonder who's going to be touched by this interview. I always wonder that like when someone's speaking, like right now you're interviewing us, who will listen to this and it will resonate and somebody else will go, I don't like them.
Right. But it's a, it's an interesting thing because I think women in general speak up more and want to come out and tell their stories more just. Being, you know, with the language and their podcast listeners, the whole thing. So it's hard to get other people in, but when you get them, they're excited, you know, it's exciting to have someone tell their story to and feel safe with you.
It's oh my gosh, this person trusts us. I just try to remember that each time we interview any, anybody, like someone's trusting us with their story. This is so big. Sometimes we're the first person they've ever [00:51:00] told for some people.
Sarah Reinhardt: I had lunch the other day with an adoptee who was coming through Kansas City and when she'd been on our podcast and she's that's the first time I've ever talked about it.
Even to her friends, you know, she'd never talked about it. And that is, then you, just think, wow, I've really. It that helps somebody that helps somebody, whatever little piece you can do in the world to help another adoptee, you know, to have an adoptee that because, you know, I got to 55-years-old or whatever before I realized the impact of it.
And there's a lot of people like that out there that are just kind of waking up and then they have a safe space to come and talk and feel non judged and feel like, oh, yes. Somebody that relates to me.
Haley Radke: Definitely. Well, I will just say, I will continue to [00:52:00] challenge myself and challenge other adoptee podcasters to make sure we are you know, sharing from a wide, wide perspectives and, and from, from people from other communities too.
Not not adoptees, only adoptees.
Sarah Reinhardt: No, we've had several international adoptees. And, you know, again, it's like we go through, probably you go through the same thing when you people apply to be on and, you know, we might, Louise and I might have to have a conversation about, okay, maybe what we've been doing is first come first serve, but maybe there's a better way to go about it.
And maybe there's a better way to reach out and find those voices that you. Yeah, that have not been as represented on the show doesn't have to be first come first serve. Why did we decide that we can revisit that? It doesn't have to be that way. You know?
Haley Radke: Yeah. There's so many podcasters. I don't want you to take that as a, you guys aren't doing something. I don't mean that. I mean, for all of us.
Sarah Reinhardt: No, but [00:53:00] it's, you're having this conversation is just, you know, kind of light bulb. Yeah. Yeah, let's have that talk. Cause We had
Louise Browne: in season two who I think we were doing like a season two mid interview, cute poster thing. And she said, oh, I don't see that many people of color on there.
And I said, and she's an adoptee. I said, would you come on please? And she's oh, okay. I didn't know, you know, I'm like, no, please and spread the word because we're trying to figure out how to spread the word too. Mm-hmm. with our limited means and our, you know, just Sarah and I at night have we doing our social media?
You know, you do all that.
Haley Radke: Okay. Yes. And I think as hosts, then we have extra work to do as white ladies to make sure we are doing our anti racist work and asking good questions and all those things to make safe space. Right. And I think you guys are excellent at doing that. There's others that could improve and, you know, we're all, [00:54:00] we're always improving.
Anyway, I want to encourage folks to listen to your show. Adoption, The Making of Me. It's so well done. I love how you have the book. Thank you. The book discussion up front. You're really taking people on a journey of learning about different things through your eyes and through the eyes of the authors that you share.
And then you share an interview with a fellow adoptee for most of your episodes, their personal story and all those like things that we love to connect to and we can always find something to relate to. I think you guys have great questions. I think you're very empathetic. I think people that like this show will probably like your show.
It's very relatable. Yes.
Louise Browne: Thank you. It means a lot coming from you, because we think very highly of you and to your listeners, you're going to be on our podcast coming up. So that's exciting too. But it, it's very it [00:55:00] means a lot coming from you, from you actually, because you have been in the space for a long time.
I think Sarah called you the godmother of the space and a good, and that's kind of like to us, you know. You put, out great work and you do great work. We've heard it from a lot. When we were first getting into this, we heard it from other people. They would talk about you to us or oh, you know, you get that person that you're like, oh, look at her.
She's doing great. So, and we're not that tuned into so many other podcasts. Like we only, you know, really know probably a handful of myself because we're just overwhelmed most of the time. I mean, just.
Haley Radke: Nobody has time to listen to all of them, but I'm so thankful for them because, you know, Sarah, you're talking about, you have this first come first serve list.
So many people apply to be on the shows and we just don't have enough time in the day to interview everyone. And so it's amazing that there's more and more places for people to [00:56:00] go and hear their have their story be heard even for the first time. Yeah. Very special. So. What did you guys want to recommend to us?
Sarah Reinhardt: Well, on the shelf and I was going to bring this up to Louise let's do another memoir soon, is You Don't Look Adopted. And I have not read that. I'm very curious to read that. Have you read that, Haley?
Haley Radke: Absolutely. I have. Yep.
Louise Browne: And I'm in a writing group. Yes, of course you have. I'm in a writing group with Anne every Tuesday night.
Okay. And I'm like, and the, the most of the adoptees in the writing group are there because they read her book and I'm there because we know her, because we've had her on the podcast. And I'm like, I'm reading this. This year, but I didn't want to read. I didn't want to read it without Sarah because it's one of the books They want us to do so I'm like in a holding pattern.
Haley Radke: Oh Okay, yes I think from what I've heard from a lot of adopted people who've read her book and I agree with this [00:57:00] is a lot of people will read it and think oh my gosh, this is how my brain works Right. Yeah, it's very got some very relatable stories in it. And yes, absolutely. That's a great one. We'll also put in the show notes all the names of the books that you guys have read through your seasons.
So folks can pick those up because we discussed them a little bit already. And yeah, great recommendations.
Louise Browne: Also, can we recommend I think also just having the platforms that are out there like Fireside Adoptees, there's certain things that I'll even look at for two minutes every day and just be like, oh, it kind of resonates and makes your day feel better. You know, things like that, like it doesn't have to be a book, but just resources. I think there's so many.
Sarah Reinhardt: There's lots of resources, Adoptees Connect Fireside Adoptees. Gosh, there's so many. Yeah. There's a new podcast about adoptees at work. Yeah. And it's all [00:58:00] about how you come to work. As an adoptive person, you know, how obviously every area of your life is affected by this event that occurred at birth.
And how does it manifest elsewhere? And that she's focusing strictly on, how we show up in the workplace, which is valuable. Very valuable. Yeah.
Louise Browne: There's some really cool, I mean, just new things out there we've been seeing. So just the resources, Joe Soll, I mean, everyone tells us about him and anyway, those are some things to, recommend.
Your podcast. Can we put that on the list?
Haley Radke: I think they're already listening to that. Well, we'll put links to all those things in the show notes. And where can we connect with you guys online? And where can we find your show?
Sarah Reinhardt: Our website is adoptionthemakingofme. com on Facebook, we're the same Twitter is, yeah, I mean, you just put us in the search bar where we're all [00:59:00] over
Louise Browne: anywhere you get your podcast pretty much.
Sarah Reinhardt: Yep. Yeah, we don't have any exclusive deals.
Haley Radke: Is there a lot of money in adoptee podcasts? You know, guys don't have big advertising deals. Oh my gosh.
Sarah Reinhardt: Exclusively on Spotify,
Haley Radke: That's podcaster humor for anyone listening.
Louise Browne: Can I tell a funny story about that? When Sarah and I started, we were, you may know this. We were in our closets. Okay. For good sound proofing. And we tried to get, you know, you do that where they try to give you. You can get advertisers, whatever we kept trying to get a clothing thing because we're like in our closets.
We can wear whatever you want us to wear. And we're also on YouTube, right? So nobody, nobody bought it. Nobody cared.
Haley Radke: No, no. I did turn down an advertising [01:00:00] deal. Really? Yes. For ethics. I was so unhappy with the way they, their business model was, and it was something for adoptees. And I was just like, No,
Sarah Reinhardt: really?
Haley Radke: Yeah.
Louise Browne: We haven't. We haven't been there.
Sarah Reinhardt: Have that turned down yet.
Haley Radke: If we don't have our adoptees as a highest cause, what do we have left?
Sarah Reinhardt: Exactly. And we did, that's not true though. We did have somebody reach out and say, oh this adoption, I don't know, it was a bunch of websites or newsletters for adoptive parents.
And I said, I don't think you quite understand. We are not, no, we don't celebrate National Adoption Month. No, we don't want to be on anything that is going to promote any kind of adoption. So, yes, we have, we had a couple of things come our way that we did turn down, [01:01:00] but it wasn't a big advertiser or anything, but yeah.
Haley Radke: Good for you. There you go. Now, you know, Louise and Sarah are really are. So, thank you ladies so much. Such a joy to hear from you.
Sarah Reinhardt: Haley. Thank you. Thank you. Haley. This was really great. And you are, you're just your depth. And yes. Perspective and your questions are just, were just so thoughtful and, and great and appreciated.
Louise Browne: Yes, very much so. Thank you.
Haley Radke: Thank you.
Oh my goodness. They have such a great energy. It was so amazing to talk with them. And I know you're going to love their podcast. I know, you know, adoptee reading is super important to me and that's something we do in community over on Adoptees On Patreon and so we have a book club nearly every [01:02:00] month and if you're listening when this is going live in November. Our book that we're reading this month is called Probably Ruby by Lisa Bird-Wilson, who is an indigenous adoptee here in Canada. And it's a fictional book, but it's just so insightful into the adoptee experience. I really, really loved Probably Ruby. It tells a story of an adopted person from all different perspectives.
I think Lisa has described it sort of as this like web around the adopted person's character. And anyway, it's wonderful. So I hope you'll read along with us and come to our live book club discussion with Lisa Bird-Wilson and Patreons already have all the info for that and have the zoom link and we would love to have you join us if you join our Patreon that is how this show continues to be made plus [01:03:00] you get some extra fun bonuses. So we'd love to have you over there, adopteeson.com/bookclub has book club details and please join us. Thank you so much for listening. Let's talk again next Friday.
