299 Dr. Abby Hasberry
/Transcript
Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/299
Haley Radke: [00:00:00] This podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing stated on it, either by its hosts or any guests, is to be construed as psychological, medical, or legal advice.
You're listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. I'm Haley Radke. I am so excited to welcome Dr. Abby Hasberry back to the show today. We are celebrating her brand new book, Adopting Privilege, a Memoir of Reinventing My Adoptee Narrative. Abby is a therapist, a scholar, an adoptee, and a birth mother.
We get into all of it, coercion in adoption, parenting after placing a child for adoption, reunion from both sides. We even talk about sororities. Abby also addresses why so many adoptees go on to place a child for [00:01:00] adoption themselves. Before we get started, I wanna personally invite you to join our Patreon adoptee community today over on adoptees on.com/community, which helps support you and also the show to support more adoptees around the world.
We wrap up with some recommended resources, including sharing how you can join us for a book club event with Dr. Abby Hasberry. And links to everything we'll be talking about today are on the website adopteeson.Com. Let's listen in.
I am so pleased to welcome back to Adoptees On, Dr. Abby Hasberry. Hi Abby.
Dr. Abby Hasberry: Hello. Thank you for having me.
Haley Radke: Yeah, last, we had, we talked a couple of years ago. We did a whole healing series episode. We talked a lot about therapy and race, and I'm sure those things are still absolutely front of mind for you, [00:02:00] of course, but would you share a little more of your personal story with us today?
Dr. Abby Hasberry: Sure. My personal story. So I was adopted in 1971 in Baltimore, transracially adopted. The really interesting thing that I like to share often is that when I was adopted, my parents had planned on adopting another black child, but in 1972, the National Association of Black Social Workers put out a position statement against transracial adoption.
And so when they went back in 1973 to start the process again, they were denied based on that. And so we talk a lot about that National Association of Black Social Workers position statement, but I'm actually someone who was personally affected by that decision, and I ended up being the only person of color in my family.
My parents had three biological kids, and so a lot of my story is around the experiences of transracial adoption, the experiences of just of racism in the United States, the experiences of racism and just identity development in [00:03:00] other countries as well, because I've lived all over the place many states, many countries.
And so I've had to learn to heal and to adapt and to really understand people and myself. And so a lot of that comes into my story, but it also comes into kind of the healing in my practice as a therapist and a lot of what I do in identity development as well. And as a former educator, so lots and lots of things that happened to me over my life as a personal person and as a career person that have all been really affected by my adoption.
I think the biggest thing really is around my identity development, though, as a black woman, and just as an adoptee as well, and thinking about the traumas that happened to me over the years, and also how I kind of pushed through them and I've really become a student of understanding how my body and my brain transform trauma, and it kind of transformed who I was.
And so [00:04:00] thinking about anxiety, thinking about like depression, thinking about some of those protective things that we do, we put on those protective layers and really kind of becoming a student of why these things have happened and how I've developed these parts of me, but also how they've really served me And so I can appreciate those things and not be like, you know, really upset about you know my trauma reactions my response would say like this thing really served me when I was younger now I need to be able to figure out a way to let it know that I'm okay and I'm in charge and heal that and kind of move on and so my story is a little bit about that as well.
Haley Radke: Your story is super unique to me, in many ways, one of which is, all the different places you lived growing up, you've referenced, like, I've lived in many countries, like, absolutely. Can you talk about, as a therapist now, like, looking back on that? Well, how do you think that impacted you as an adopted person? Having so many different [00:05:00] transitions and, like, trying to figure out where home is, what's that sort of meant to you?
Dr. Abby Hasberry: Yeah, and as an introvert, it really affected me just moving around from place to place and trying to figure out who I was, where did I fit in? How do I navigate this space in these friendships and this school, there is a lot of just trying to figure out lots of parts of me. I think that one of the things that really, really kind of shaped who I was was spending early years overseas. And not thinking about my race and even my adoption status, but really thinking of myself as an American and as an expat.
It allowed me to develop young as just a human and as a being, and then to think about the other parts of my identity, those intersections later in life. I think that that helped kind of shape who I am and how I look at the world. And really just, I don't know, it, it, it shaped how I relate to other people and feeling relatable to [00:06:00] other people as well, because I've been so many places and had to navigate so many different spaces.
Haley Radke: I, I wondered about like identity development when it felt like to me, you got trained to really try and know who you were because you were the, you were the same thing from moving to place to place versus all your surroundings. I don't know. Do you think that's true? Like, I always, I lived basically the same place for, you know, 17 years.
I've lived in the same, you know, let's say four block radius for 20 years. The idea of moving is actually quite scary for me to move to a different country or place or even a different town than I live in. You know, I don't know. What do you think?
Dr. Abby Hasberry: Yeah, absolutely. I absolutely believe that. And one of the things that I [00:07:00] remember my mom saying when I got a little bit older, not not so much in my elementary years, but middle school when high school and when we would move.
And then even I told myself as I moved as an adult is every time I moved, I got to reinvent myself and decide what parts of me I wanted to keep and what parts of me I wanted to leave in that old life. And so it really was a lot of thought about who I am and how I'm showing up in spaces and who I want to be and how I want other people to see me.
I thought about that a lot and had the opportunity to kind of mold that and be intentional even as a child, because I'm moving to this whole new place where no one knows me and how do I want to dress? How do I want to show up? I don't have to be who I was a year ago. They didn't know those that person at all.
So yeah, it absolutely I've trained it's a really great way to kind of explain the process of learning to just shape my identity intentionally.
Haley Radke: Well, you know what? I love that for you because it sounded like a benefit in the end. It feels scary for me to think about what I would have done in those circumstances. So that's really [00:08:00] interesting.
Dr. Abby Hasberry: Yeah, don't get me wrong. It was definitely scary at times. One of the things I don't think I've put in my book, I'm not sure if I did or not, but I remember in ninth grade, moving to a new school and spending the very first lunch period crying in the phone booth, talking to my mom because I didn't know anyone.
So like, it wasn't, it wasn't like this whole sunshines and rainbows and roses moving. There were definitely hard times,
Haley Radke: indeed,
Dr. Abby Hasberry: and really some hard effects on me.
Haley Radke: It's kind of like how we talk about, you know, the trauma in adoption. Oh, but adoptees are so resilient and right. It's like let's look for any ray of sunshine in there I guess.
Dr. Abby Hasberry: Yes.
Haley Radke: So, one of the pieces in your story is that you placed a child for adoption as a teenager. And I'm curious what your thoughts are as someone who holds two identities in the adoption [00:09:00] constellation. Because I know so many adoptees who have gone on to be first mothers, birth mothers, bio mothers, mothers lost, natural mothers, whatever term you like to use. And I'm curious your thoughts on that. I was recently speaking to someone else who holds those both identities as you do. And she was like, I think being adopted is like a perfect pipeline to becoming a birth mother. Do you think that's the case?
Dr. Abby Hasberry: Yes. Yeah, absolutely. I about a year ago, I recorded a video where this term birth mother grooming in my head came and just like, that's what I feel like I went through is really birth mother grooming. I was groomed to be a birth mother from being an adoptee, from being a transracial adoptee.
And so there's all this race stuff that kind of played into my mom's vision of who she thought I should be as a black person. And when I was teenage, black pregnant girl. It was like all of her stereotypes were crashing together and a fear of that and what that would mean for [00:10:00] me and for her, as well as all of the coercive practices that happen and all of those things. I absolutely see now that like I was really groomed to be a birth mom.
Haley Radke: It's so upsetting. And yet like when you talk about it's like, yeah, we can see that.
Dr. Abby Hasberry: Yeah.
Haley Radke: A hundred percent. Right? That was a choice available to your parents to add to their family. Your parents, you talk about this a little bit in the book, how they were going to adopt from Vietnam.
Cause that like, that's like peak time, right? In the early seventies the Vietnam war and, and we're talking about, you know, all of these half American babies we'll say. And so, God, what's that called? Operation Baby Lift? When they, like, that plain girl, that's terrible. Look up that history if you guys aren't familiar with it.
Can you talk a little bit more about that? When, from your mother experience, you shared, like, you'd like them placed in a black [00:11:00] family and that didn't ultimately happen. And so part of that grooming, I think, goes into that.
Dr. Abby Hasberry: Yeah, absolutely. That grooming of these are all these families you can choose from.
And it's like picking out a new house. You get to think about all the things that you would want in space. And, you know, how much money do they have? What are their vacations like? It's like, You get to develop this family, this dream family, and especially as an adoptee who already spent so much of my life in my head thinking about that dream family and that ghost kingdom life, it was just like, I'm now thinking about this ghost kingdom for my son.
And so it was kind of like dreaming about everything that I would want for him. The thing I didn't understand though, is that once I signed that paperwork, everything that we agreed upon, like it was a handshake agreement, there was nothing written, everything we agreed upon. None of it was legal or binding.
And so they did end up placing him with a completely different family, with a completely different dynamic. And specifically, the thing that was most hurtful is that they placed him transracially. [00:12:00] And I wanted him to have at least one Black parent and at least one Black sibling. And he had none of that.
And that was, and I, they knew from our conversations that that was the most important thing for me. And even though at 16 and 17, when it was, when these conversations were taking place, I was still definitely very much in the fog. I was very aware of those things that needed to happen and were important to me. But yeah, they did not honor that at all.
Haley Radke: I'm so sorry. You know, like, it's like I gave you everything and you couldn't even, you couldn't even respect like
Dr. Abby Hasberry: The one thing.
Haley Radke: The one thing. Oh my gosh.
Dr. Abby Hasberry: Yeah.
Haley Radke: Another thing that I've heard you talk about, you talk about a little bit in the book, not a little bit, quite a bit in the book, is your idea that this is a temporary situation and you weren't given any other outs.
Like people were like, oh, we'll help you, you know, you can, [00:13:00] whatever you do will support you. But like, here's the op, there's the one option. Here's the one choice.
Dr. Abby Hasberry: Yes.
Haley Radke: Yeah, you know, because a lot of people don't actually understand all the coercion and manipulation that happens for mothers. So can you share a little bit about that?
Dr. Abby Hasberry: Yeah, that was something that I did not realize until I was like a fully formed adult for all of my years until probably, I don't know, five, 10 years ago. I really believe that I made this choice. I believe that everything was laid out in front of me and I made a decision based on what I had at that moment.
Still felt regret, still felt shame and guilt about it, but really believed that I had made the choice. As a parent now, as an adult and going back and looking and even getting back memories that I had blocked out afterward, I really understand that there was no choice there. There was no this is how you'll go to college.
This is how you're going to continue to run track. This is where the baby will go. This is where we'll have a crib in a month and a half, [00:14:00] because when I started these conversations I had him a month and a half later. And so there was none of that just pathway that they gave me. My parents, when we talked about college told me, you know, this is what it will look like.
This is where you'll get money. This is what financial aid is. This is where you'll live. This is how you'll go back and forth for holidays. If you want to go to the school that's a couple hours away, you can come back as often as you want. If you want to go to a school that's in another state, you don't have that much money for plane tickets, so this is how often you'll be able to come home.
Whole plan. When we talked about having this, my son and raising him, it was, if you want to do it, we'll support you. That was the plan. There was no, you know, I know we have a month and a half. This is how we're going to get clothes. What does breastfeeding look like? What are, you know, nursing options bottle feeding options?
Where are we going to get a crib? Where, what about child care in September when you go back to school I had him in, in June, none of those discussions were had. And so it was a choice with no information. And it really was coercion because they would say, we will support you. [00:15:00] But then they would tell me, these are all these families.
These are all these have all the things they have. These are the plans they have for your son. This is the lessons he'll be able to take and the experiences, the vacations. And so I understood what his plan looked like. If he were to go to someone else. But there was no plan if he were to stay with me,
Haley Radke: I'm sorry. I mean, it's just, it's still happening to this day. That's ultimately, it's still happening to this day for mothers who are in a temporary situation and feel like they have no bridging help. I've spent the last month talking to a lot of mothers and, you know, like some of them are like, by the time, like three years later, I was like fully resourced and in fact had more resources than my child's adoptive parents.
It's just like, it's so temporary. Like how do we help women parent who really would like to parent? [00:16:00] It's just so angering.
Dr. Abby Hasberry: Yeah, and the ironic thing for me is that the family that I chose, not the one that he went to, but the family that I chose were a doctor and lawyer, and my husband and I are doctor, PhD, but, and doctor, and he's a lawyer, and so, and we have all of the black history, and he has, he would have had black siblings and all the things that I wanted him, the plan I had laid out for him that he didn't get is now my home, and so, like, it's, it's maddening. Heartbreaking. All of the things.
Haley Radke: Yeah. I know you trained in IFS in the last year. I saw it on Facebook.
Dr. Abby Hasberry: Yeah.
Haley Radke: And so how has that helped you personally to like, look back at, you know, say 16 year old Abby within you and just be like, girl, like you didn't know.
Dr. Abby Hasberry: Yeah. Yeah. It's definitely helped to really give myself more grace and understand why I did certain things and how these protective parts came. It's really helped me to [00:17:00] see kind of the, the parts of me that were really hurt and how they're still in the hurt and how, like, what, when I get kind of triggered, I hate the word triggered, but when I get triggered by something, when those, those hurt parts of me get triggered by something, my reactive
part of me that comes out and reacts. I can understand it and give it a little more grace and also it really helps me to kind of bring it back down much more quickly because I can recognize that this is a reaction as a protective part of the hurt part of me. And so my reaction isn't the anger or whatever the feeling is, it really is pain and hurt.
It's so I can really kind of go to that pain and hurt and not to the reaction. IFS has definitely helped me see that in me, but more importantly, it's helped me see that in my patients and my clients and help them to kind of see that in themselves.
Haley Radke: Hmm. Can we sort of go back in time a little bit to when you had your second child? How was parenting after placing [00:18:00] for you? Because for a lot of folks, right, it brings all the trauma right to the surface again. And, and that's really difficult.
Dr. Abby Hasberry: Yeah. I think that part of my protective ability or disability depends on how you look at it is that I pushed the memories away. And so having my son did not bring up a whole lot of that.
The thing that really kind of brought it up was when he was around 5 and started saying he wanted an older brother and I was just like, well, what in the world? Like, what kid asks for an older brother specifically? When he has one out there. And what do I say to this? And so I think that was the first time that it really, like, struck me to my core that, like, this is a thing that's affecting not only me, but him.
But I, because I pushed away all of the other memories, it really, it did not play the part that I've often heard it does in other first parents.
Haley Radke: Okay, wait, how I want to ask this. I don't know. I'm going to ask it like how [00:19:00] and when did you decide to tell your other children that they in fact did have an older brother?
Dr. Abby Hasberry: I did not tell them until I found him because I didn't want them to feel what I felt, which is that like that longing that, you know, the questioning the, where is he? Is he okay? I didn't want them to have that those same anxious feelings that I had my entire life. And so it wasn't until I was sure that I'd found him that I told them.
Haley Radke: Yeah. Do you think that like looking back, are you like, that was a good choice to protect them?
Dr. Abby Hasberry: I think so. Yes.
Haley Radke: Yeah.
Dr. Abby Hasberry: Because for my, for my son, I think it was, he kind of somehow knew like when I, when we did finally tell him it wasn't. He didn't have a huge reaction. It was like, cause I brought up, you know, how you always ask for an older brother and like, you do have one.
And so, and they're so incredibly similar down to their hobbies. And that I think that it was the right thing to do for them. And especially for my [00:20:00] youngest, because she was four when we found him. And so she really hasn't known life. Without him. I think it's been hardest for her as he's, my son has come in and out of our life and has had to deal with his own adoption trauma and deciding whether or not to have contact or not.
I think it's been hardest for her because she didn't know life without him. So when he leaves, it feels like a hole in a way that's different from my other two.
Haley Radke: Yeah. Okay, so you've experienced reunion in different ways.
Dr. Abby Hasberry: So many ways.
Haley Radke: So many ways. So, okay, I have a question as someone who was you know, sorry listeners, I'm going to repeat a story I've told 20 times on the show. I presented with a friend. We're both adoptees, both rejected from our mothers in reunion after a period of time of knowing them. And so during this presentation, we were attacked by a birth [00:21:00] mom in the room. She was very angry. Very upset with the things we were sharing, insinuating that, you know, me and my co presenter were somehow just like re sharing things that just super weren't helpful and all those things.
And like, we only saw the adoptee side. Fair enough. That's my experience. So as someone who's experienced reunion from both sides, and there you go, we have an adoptee that comes in and out and what feels safe to them and those things. What do you see in, like, what are some things that are really helpful in a reunion? What are some things that are not helpful? I mean, I know it's different for everybody, like, do you see things adoptees are doing, like, I'm gonna put in quotations, like, wrong in reunions? Because I felt very, like, slimed for the things that I was saying.
Dr. Abby Hasberry: [00:22:00] I think it's a personal experience, and so, as long as you're kind of living in what your own truth is, I don't.
And you're really giving grace and understanding to everyone else in that situation. I don't think that there's a right or wrong. It's what our capacity is and how we are able to handle it. My, my birth mother has not been able to, has, has rejected me and I just see it as her still living in her pain and her trauma and it's not a reflection of me.
I try to not make it a reflection of her although there are days when it hurts and so I'm not happy with her, but overall I just try to see, see and recognize that. She's still living in, in all the pain of it as well, and so she may never be able to open up to me as far as my son kind of going in and out and saying, at times he can't handle the contact, he doesn't want anything to do with us and specifically with me, I just, I treat it as just any parent, like I'm his parent and so it's my job to kind of be the eye of the hurricane and whatever he's doing around me is whatever he needs to do at that moment.[00:23:00]
My job is. Just stay steady and be here. If he wants to be here, then great. If he doesn't, then that's fine as well. It just, you just center yourself in it and see what you need. I know that I have the capacity to be that for him. I don't know what my capacity would ever be for my birth mother. If she reached out again, I don't know if I'd want to have contact with her or not. I would just play it by ear and see what happens when it happens, if it ever happens.
Haley Radke: Thank you. So as someone who searched, like, a long time ago, and then you did, like, DNA testing and stuff, did you feel some sort of way about searching for your son? And, like, what that would look like?
Dr. Abby Hasberry: Yeah, I definitely hoped he would have done it. Like, when he turned 18, it was, like, waiting for a while. Like, for a couple months after he turned 18, I was, like, checking the mail and hoping like every time the phone rang that that this would be the [00:24:00] time. He didn't and I learned later that boys often don't search in the same way that girls do they aren't as like interested and so then when he turned 21 I decided to start looking again because I thought at that point brain development was happening more college was probably near ending and all of the things were his life would be a little more stable and settled and so that's when I decided to go out on my own and start looking for him.
I really wanted to think about when he would feel supported and mature enough and be stable enough in order for me to kind of come in and disrupt his world a little bit and say, here I am.
Haley Radke: And then what did you say to your youngest daughter when he was taking breaks?
Dr. Abby Hasberry: Just that. Just that he just needed like to step away and it was a lot for him to handle and that we would as a family support that and be here when and if he wanted to come back.
Haley Radke: Yeah. Thank [00:25:00] you I mean, I just I know people must have similar situations happening in their households and it's so confusing to navigate like what's the right thing to do, you know? Are you, are you comfortable talking about your adoptive mom a little bit? Yeah.
Dr. Abby Hasberry: Yes. Absolutely.
Haley Radke: You share in your, in your new book that she passed in 2023 after a battle with dementia and your relationship with her also sort of went up and down. And so how did you navigate those years with her with dementia and then following her passing, like how did you take care of yourself in the grieving process?
Dr. Abby Hasberry: Yeah, it's dementia's horrible. It is a long, long grieving process because it starts off with just kind of memory things and just like repeating of stories in a conversation and then just deteriorates over the years and the way that I kind of, [00:26:00] I guess, put up my boundaries in order to be okay and really honored the capacity that I had to deal with it was to only deal with it with her specifically when I knew I was strong.
There were times when I knew I couldn't, it was just too hard. And towards the end, I did not see her very often. And I think, not I think, I know that part of that was me wanting to preserve her memory as the person that she was. The strong kind of force very opinionated, very in your face person that she was.
I wanted to remember her as that and not the shell that she kind of turned into a different person, relapsed almost into her own childhood. And that was not only my intention, but also because she had had a relative who had dementia, who lived with her at some point in childhood, and she had spoken about how, if that ever happened to her, that's not how she wanted to be remembered.
She talked about us, like, don't have me come live in your house, put me somewhere else. I [00:27:00] don't want you guys to deal with what I did. And she also, I refer to my mom as an education snob. She loved everything to do with education and that was one of the things she was most proud about herself is how intelligent she was as well.
And so thinking about her losing her memories and losing that intelligence, I wanted to honor who she wanted to be. And who she was and how she wanted to be remembered as well. So I did put up a lot of boundaries towards the end, which felt like losing her over and over again.
Haley Radke: In your book, you seem to be so like, I'll call it tender with the balance of how you talk about your parents.
You give them a lot of grace, you share a lot of very difficult things, and you really, it seems to me like you're really trying to balance them out as like a full human while saying the things that happened. And did you, were you like? [00:28:00] Nervous about writing any of those things like you share some really deeply personal things all together in your memoir
Dr. Abby Hasberry: yeah,
Haley Radke: I think a lot of people will be surprised by how candid you get and how did you know what to share and like do you still feel like the adoptee loyalty to like sort of I don't know. I'm all say hedge like it's not but you know what? I mean?
Dr. Abby Hasberry: Yeah, I kind of decided that anything that I'm healed from, and I'm writing from a healing place, I guess it's more of what I want to say, is anything that I'm writing from in a healed place, I would write about it. And then anything that was my story, that was just me, that I experienced, I'm allowed to write about.
I don't want to write about other people's stories or interpret things, but anything that was my story, I was going to write about. I also believed, I heard the quote, I feel like it was Dolly Parton, but I could be making this up, that if they wanted me to write better about them, they should have treated me better.
And so that was kind of the honesty from which I wrote, is that [00:29:00] like these things happened and if you didn't want me to talk about it. Don't do it. But at the same time, that balance that you talk about, I was very intentional about that because I like me. I think I turned out pretty well and I have to give them credit for the parts of that that they did.
And so I, while there are things that they did absolutely wrong, there are things that they did absolutely right. And I wanted to highlight both parts of that and show that humans are flawed and can do horrible things, but they can also be amazing people that do awesome things. And so that balance was important to me to not just point fingers at the horrible things that happen, but also to say, like, I am who I am because of the great things, the experiences, the travel, the ability to really understand my identity, the ability to be critical, a critical thinker and think about race and the way that that shows up in the world. All of that is because of my parents. And so I didn't, I wanted to give them that grace and give them that balance while also saying there are some really horrible things that happen in adoption. [00:30:00]
Haley Radke: You talked about your mom as an educator and, and that's how you spent a lot of your career. You identify as a lifelong learner. How many PhDs you have now?
What's your certificate collection at for all your extra training? So those are such special things about you that, I mean, I haven't collected a bunch of like degrees, but I also identify as like a lifelong learner. Like I want, I'm just desperate to know more. And so I'm curious what parts of those do you think are, can you parse out nature versus nurture?
Or like. Core Abby, like I desire more knowledge and it seems to me that you live your life in such a way that you desire to give back in a huge way.
Dr. Abby Hasberry: Yeah, a little bit of both. I said before my mom was an education snob. And so I think it was kind of really pressed into my brain that education is the way to grow, to expand your knowledge, to expand your experience, your [00:31:00] abilities, all of that.
So I think that pursuing it in that way was definitely part of my mom, part of my dad, because he also had a PhD. And so I wouldn't have even really known about a PhD in high school and thinking about going that path if I didn't have a father who was who had a PhD. And so I always that was had been one of my goals my entire life.
However, the way that I've kind of weaved together my education, my experiences and my like work life and all of those things are definitely inherently me. And I can say that because when I started to really develop my career and who I was before my mom passed, she couldn't understand what I did when I would talk to her about my job.
She was just like, I don't understand what you do. And this is before dementia . She was just like, like, I don't understand how you weaved all these things together to make this path and what you're doing with your life. And so I know that that was the way that I've used my experiences, my education and all of it together to [00:32:00] make this strange career that I'm in now was definitely me to the core.
Haley Radke: That's, sorry, I'm confused. Like, she didn't know what you did. Okay.
Dr. Abby Hasberry: She's like, why is that a job? I remember her asking me one. Why are people paying you to do these things? I don't, I don't know.
Haley Radke: Okay, this is like, must be post principal, because she knew what that was.
Dr. Abby Hasberry: Yeah, she did know what that was, but even that one, she was like, why would anyone want to do that job as a teacher? She asked me that.
Haley Radke: Really?
Dr. Abby Hasberry: Why would you want to be a principal? Yeah, she did ask me that at one point.
Haley Radke: Oh, that's so interesting, because you're just like a very effective leader and you model that really well in all the things that I've observed you doing. I wonder why she couldn't see herself ever doing something like that.
Dr. Abby Hasberry: Yeah, she was a teacher to her heart and my dad as well. He was a PhD, but he wanted to teach only so he never did [00:33:00] any research or published. And so that whole tenure thing never happened for him because they were both both my parents were just teachers and not just, but were teachers to their core and did not want to do any of the other parts of education. They really believed in just in educating. So the other jobs, she was just like, why would you ever want to do any of that?
Haley Radke: Curious. Okay, something else I'm curious, and I don't know if it's just because I'm Canadian. I don't know. When you talked about being in a sorority, I was like, okay, I know this is a big thing in the states. Maybe it is here. I just did not experience it personally. Okay, what is it like being in a sorority? Like, how has that shaped you?
Dr. Abby Hasberry: Yeah, so I'm in an Alpha Kappa Alpha sorority incorporated, and it is a historically black sorority founded in 1908. And so it's very different. The black fraternities and sororities are very different in that they're so [00:34:00] incredibly community based, so incredibly part of your identity.
It's not something you do in college and then you're done with it. It's not, it's, it is kind of how, who you are and how you live. And so being able to be a part of a black sorority as a transracial adoptee. It was almost a sign of like, I made it. Like I, I found my identity. I've been accepted in a way that I don't know that I could have gotten in any other place.
Because I'm part of legacies of history of sorority and sisterhood and all of the things that have to do with being in a black sorority and it really is part of your identity.
Haley Radke: Okay. And to this day. To this day you identify, you say the name of sorority. Are there still like things you're involved with?
Dr. Abby Hasberry: Yeah, so with sororities you get to do graduate chapter after you graduate from college. And so you it is a lifelong [00:35:00] commitment. There are lifelong service it is a service organization, so there are things that you can do lifelong. This Saturday actually, there's a chapter here in Baltimore, and we will be going for a walk together in the mall.
There are service opportunities where you can do things in the community and it is a week to week. Monthly meeting, but week to week activities of service around, around the community.
Haley Radke: And I imagine you would mentor younger women that are part of it then, too, in, in some capacity, whether formal or informal?
Dr. Abby Hasberry: Yeah, there, there could be formal and informal and even formal ways of mentoring in high school, back, going back to high school and mentoring as a grown person. So, yes.
Haley Radke: Okay. Okay. I'm so, I'm so new to, I mean, listen, things I knew about sororities, movies, there's parties, sometimes girls dress the same. So anyway, that's really cool to [00:36:00] learn about the other community involvement. And so it sounds like that also shaped a part of like a passions to give back and those kinds of things.
Dr. Abby Hasberry: Yes, absolutely.
Haley Radke: Okay. Okay. So, you don't look like a grandma, but you are one. And so
Dr. Abby Hasberry: Thank you.
Haley Radke: For real. For real. I'm like, you look so young. Can you talk about, you talked about legacy with sorority, but how about starting a new legacy for your biological family? And now that you have grandchildren, like what is, what does it feel like to be a grandparent? To a, like a biologically related, like, oh my goodness.
Dr. Abby Hasberry: And I'm, I'm grandparent to biologically related children and some who are not. And so I have two granddaughters who are not biologically related, but my son is their dad and has been their dad, one since she was a little [00:37:00] less, a little less than a year old and the other since she was about four. So yeah, it's, it's, it's interesting to have a family dynamic where the biology of it all hasn't made a difference in who is father and who is grandparent. And so, yes, I have three that I'm biologically related to and two that I'm not right now.
Haley Radke: Okay.
Dr. Abby Hasberry: And grandparenting is the most amazing experience ever. It's just like a different kind of love and that kind of love that I only have to do for 45 minutes at a time if I want to, and I can give them back which is really amazing thing to o especially as you get older and exhausted. But no, it is, it's been my joy and like, I, yeah, I can't. Yeah, I would recommend.
Haley Radke: Okay. Highly recommend being a grandparent.
Dr. Abby Hasberry: Highly, highly. Yes.
Haley Radke: Okay. Okay. I just wonder if you ever spend time reflecting on that. Like my generations are going to be together now. [00:38:00]
Dr. Abby Hasberry: Yes. Yeah. Especially with my, like with the reunion and my oldest daughter has gotten to know her cousins, her biological cousins.
That has been really interesting. She's been the one who's really connected with them the most, probably because she's here and also they're closest to her age. But yeah, it's It's very interesting to and kind of a gift for them to be able to see people who look like them and I didn't get that until I had my son that was the first time they have each other they have me and now they have this whole other side of the family that they get to see and not only get to see but get to see things about them.
My son can play any instrument by ear completely, like, musically inclined, and to find out that my biological family were all musicians. Most of them sing, some actually might have a couple uncles who were pretty famous musicians, and so it was like, those kinds of things just clicked. Like, okay, I see where we come from and why we have these things, and they get to experience it [00:39:00] at an early age. Which I didn't get to do until I was an adult.
Haley Radke: That's such a, that's such a neat part of reunion, I agree. Like the extended sort of family building and another thing we've talked about a little bit more recently on the show, but just the fact that even if you're denied a reunion with a biological parent, whether it's because you found them deceased or they've refused a connection with you.
There's there's possibly other family members that you can build connections to or your children can build connections to, to fill in some of those stories that as an adopted person, we may feel that we're missing.
Dr. Abby Hasberry: Yes, absolutely. And I've experienced that as my mom. It rejected me and my biological dad died decades before I actually found the family.
And so not being able to have connection with either one of them, but being able to connect to the children, my siblings, to my nieces and nephews, grandnieces [00:40:00] and nephews, all of that has, has filled in a lot of what I missed. But I always say, though, you can never go back again. And so I recently spent some time with my siblings at a sibling reunion.
And it was amazing. And the connection was just like right there. But then there were conversations about lived experiences that I just could not connect to, just did not have that experience with them and felt like an outsider. Like I'm in this place where they accept me as their sibling, but they're having these, remember these conversations.
At one point they were singing a song that they sang together growing up. And none of that was part of my experience. And so while reunion brings back a lot of it. It also reminds you of often of how much you've lost.
Haley Radke: Right. So relate to that. So much even like being in the house and it's like, oh yeah, all the, all the childhood family pictures.
Yeah. I am definitely not in there. I am not in there. [00:41:00] Yeah. Oh my goodness. Thank you so much for sharing. I, my last question for you before we do recommended resources. So your book is called Adopting Privilege.
Dr. Abby Hasberry: Yes.
Haley Radke: When did you discover who holds the privileges, who holds the advantages, the rights in adoption?
Dr. Abby Hasberry: In adoption, specifically, I would definitely say in relinquishment as a birth mother in that relinquishment time that, yeah, just definitely that was an experience of coercion and just understanding that the agency worker and the hopeful adoptive parents, their needs were definitely much more prioritized than mine, even in the delivery room and giving birth.
And then in my experience being taken off the delivery floor and being put on just a regular, regular surgical floor to disconnect me [00:42:00] from the birth experience. Yeah, definitely in that relinquishment, I think that I recognize privilege very, very young as a transracial adoptee, recognize, recognize.
Economic privilege and racial privilege, very, very young, but the adopting privilege of it, I really recognize as a birth parent.
Haley Radke: Thank you. Your new book, Adopting Privilege, A Memoir of Reinventing My Adoptee Narrative. I don't say this to everybody, Abby. I read it immediately when you sent it to me. I read it in the same day, the same evening I sat there and I was like, go away, go away.
I'm reading. I read on my laptop. It was so good. You put so much of you into it. I literally, I literally cried. I felt so proud of your bravery in the things that you share. I said earlier that you were more candid than I expected, and I [00:43:00] think that's because I think going in, I thought I was going to meet a little bit more therapist.
Dr. Hasberry with and that's there. That's absolutely there. Your expertise and, and you have these like, amazing, listen, dear Abby letters. Come on. How, you're the Abby I'd like to write, to write to. The reflections, like all of those things are there. But to get to know you in such a personal way, it just felt, I felt kind of lucky, frankly, when I was reading it, and I just was like, this book is going to be so helpful.
And as someone who's a leader in the community and shows that spirit of like generosity of sharing wisdom in your story, like to like give all of it is just felt really special. So thank you for writing it. And I know people are just going to love reading it and getting to know you at a more deeper level.
Dr. Abby Hasberry: Thank you.
Haley Radke: Frankly, how is it to write some of this? [00:44:00] Like, were you like, I don't know if I'm going to share this all.
Dr. Abby Hasberry: Yeah, I definitely had a moment of that when I started writing and my mentor for my PhD program, Dr. Clark, who was like the most amazing woman ever. She said, just write it all and you can take out whatever you want later.
And so that was what I did. And I took out nothing, but she, she just gave me the freedom to just pour it all out by saying that. And like saying, if it, if you've had pause in the end, you can take it out. You don't have to share all of it, but write it all. And so, yeah, it, it was hard. It was very many years.
And there were even times when I would write it and come back like a year later. And I don't feel that way anymore. I've got to rewrite this section because a new memory came up or you know, just I've learned some more or just I've done some more healing and work. And I recognize that that that thing that I believe wasn't really true.
And it's not true to who I am right now, at least. And so it was very much a [00:45:00] labor of love and the labor of healing and an intense process. Don't regret any of it though.
Haley Radke: Okay, good. Okay, good. And you write, you write, like, the scathing critiques of the adoption system that, and like, you, you really go there.
So for anyone who's like, Oh, I don't like. Is she going to be hesitant about that? Like, no, no, no, you just say all the real things. Like, really? So I'm really, I loved it.
Dr. Abby Hasberry: From my story.
Haley Radke: Yeah. Sorry. Who are you hoping that who you're hoping to read it besides us?
Dr. Abby Hasberry: Um definitely adoptees. Yeah.
Haley Radke: Okay. Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Abby Hasberry: And birth parents, but therapists, educators, parents in general, just people because people who have been victims of, of sexual abuse, people who have been victims of microaggressions, like literally everybody, I think anyone can get something from the story because, again, I really didn't hold back very much.
So, yeah, I really feel like I want [00:46:00] everyone to read it. But I definitely think educators, therapists, people who are in the community, social workers, adoption agency people just to get another, another narrative added to the story.
Haley Radke: Absolutely. I agree. I think this will be a great book that we'll be able to recommend to our friends who don't even have a connection to adoption because it's so, I love that it's really story driven and, and, and so it's so easily readable, but you're saying all the things that we need to hear. So.
Dr. Abby Hasberry: Thank you.
Haley Radke: Yeah. Well done. Well done you. What do you want to recommend to us?
Dr. Abby Hasberry: One of the things that Rebecca Wellington's, Who Is A Worthy Mother, absolutely, it's one of the books that I've recommended to some of my clients and Relinquished as well, both of those books I recommend, I recommend to my clients.
And the other thing that I've been kind of reading and thinking about for healing is The Seven Circles, which is a based on indigenous healing spaces, but thinking about the seven circles [00:47:00] of wellness and the ways that we show up in those places, our safe space, our, our food, our movement, religion, all of those seven circles of just how we really find balance and find ourselves in the world.
Haley Radke: Amazing. We will put links to all of those books in the show notes. Thank you so much, Abby. It's just such an honor to get to talk with you again. Where can we find your book and follow along with you and connect with you online?
Dr. Abby Hasberry: Easiest is just adoptingprivilege. com. And then all of my links are there.
I'm on Instagram as well, but you can get to all of that from adoptingprivilege. com.
Haley Radke: Perfect. We will also link to your, your socials in the show notes. Congratulations on your book launch. So excited to cheer you on.
Dr. Abby Hasberry: Thank you.
Haley Radke: I am so excited that we get to read [00:48:00] Abby's book with her in April. I hope you will join us. We are going to have info in the show notes for you. And if you're wondering about any of our upcoming live events, like maybe you're listening to this in 2028. And you're like, I know this book club is well past you can go to adopteeson.com/calendar and see any of our upcoming live events. We usually host them on zoom and Abby will be joining us. We'll talk all about her memoir, full spoilers, which we tried to avoid during this interview. And I hope you will come. There is a seven day free trial. Patreon now has activated gift subscriptions.
So if you want to join and you want to bring your bestie adoptee friend along, you can gift Patreon subscriptions now, which is really amazing. We've asked Patreon to do that for years and years and years. And so now they [00:49:00] finally have implemented that. And if you want a scholarship, there's also a link on the website adopteeson.com that you can click through and apply. And yeah, that's, I'm really looking forward to that. We also have our monthly Ask an Adoptee Therapist events, which are some of my favorite things that we do. And you're welcome to submit questions for our therapists at adopteeson.com/ask. Thank you so much for listening.
Let's talk again [00:50:00] soon.
