Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/41

You're listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. This is Season 3, episode two: Derek. I'm your host, Haley Radke. This is part two of my Season 3 premiere. Today, we meet Derek Frank. Derek shares about his reunion with his birth father, his siblings, and is also incredibly candid about why he has not yet reached out to his birth mother.

Later on, Ridghaus from last week's episode joins Derek, and the three of us have a conversation about their incredible Six Word Adoption Memoir Project, where Ridg and Derek ask, “If you had six words to tell your adoption story, what six words would you choose?”

We wrap up with some recommended resources, and links to all of the things we'll be talking about today are on the website, adopteeson.com.

Make sure you listen all the way to the end today, because I have some exciting news about a brand new podcast. Let's listen in.

I'm so pleased to welcome to Adoptees On, Derek Frank. Welcome, Derek.

Derek Frank: Thank you. Happy to be here.

Haley Radke: Well, I would love it if you would begin by sharing your story with us.

Derek Frank: So, I was adopted at birth from California, and my parents (my adoptive parents) were living in New York City at the time. So I was on a plane at four days old from California to New York City, and then I grew up in New York until I was eight. Moved to New Jersey with my adoptive folks. I knew I was adopted at birth, but that was sort of the end of the discussions we had in our house.

And it was a private adoption, so from when I turned 18, my parents actually gave me my original birth certificate. So I actually had my— Well, I don't know if it was the original one, but it was the one that had my birth father's name and my birth mother's name on it, so I had that information really early. And I think part of my journey in reunion has been to go back and think about what I did with that information. Because for a long time, I didn't do anything.

I just… I would think about my birth parents and I would sort of fantasize about the families that I was from, but I never reached out. So, it wasn't until I was 35 and my adoptive father died that I reached out to try to connect with my birth family.

So my adoptive father died, and after about a year. I went to go see the movie Philomena. (I don't know if you've seen that movie.) Judi Dench, Steve Coogan. She's a birth mother, searching for her son.

Haley Radke: I haven't seen it, because I often avoid films that make me— I'm worried that I'd be triggered. But I know what you're talking about, yes.

Derek Frank: Well, so, no, but that's really interesting. That's a level of self awareness you have that I didn't have at the time. I was one of those adoptees who was very much like, “Well, I'm adopted and so what?” That was sort of my attitude towards it, even as I was constantly, you know— I would fantasize about my birth parents all the time. I would walk through airports and scan everybody's face to see if I looked like anybody, but still sort of in denial as to how important and central that was to my life.

So I went to go see Philomena about a year-and-a-half after my birth father died, and cried almost through the whole thing and walked out of the theater and thought, Oh, well, I guess I got to do something now. Like that was the sort of inciting incident, I think, in my story in sort of getting me moving towards reunion.

And then the next day, actually, I went to Barnes and Noble (and this was one in New Jersey where my mom lives, because it was on a trip to visit my mom). And so I saw the movie and then the next day, I went to Barnes and Noble. And they actually had a small adoption section, you know, books for adoptive parents, but also some books that were sort of more from the adoptee perspective. So they had Betty Jean Lifton and they also had The Primal Wound. And that was the first book I picked up.

So I was standing in Barnes and Noble and I picked up The Primal Wound and read maybe four pages and started crying again. And so that was… Those two experiences back to back, (like, you know, nighttime and like an afternoon, back to back).... I came back to Boston (where I live), and a few days later I had signed up on a few registry sites (so sites that match birth parents and adopted people looking for each other?).

And even that's interesting, because I had the information, right? Like I could have reached out in some other way, but I apparently needed to do this really safe thing, because the registry site would sort of alert me if someone was looking for me.

Haley Radke: It's the mutual consent thing.

Derek Frank: Yeah, exactly. Like I needed to… Like, that was the first step I was going to take. You know, and it felt safe. And I think there's a lot to talk about in terms of what didn't feel safe, and what was going on for me.

But so it turned out in a great way that my birth father had signed up on one of these sites 15 years ago. Yeah. He had seen it on Oprah 15 years ago. So he had signed up.

Haley Radke: You would have been like 20 or something?

Derek Frank: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So I got an email two days after I signed up on this registry site, “Your birth father is looking for you.” And I just… I mean, you know, it's such a frightening, exciting, surreal moment. And I didn't expect it to happen so quickly.

I felt like I was dipping my toe into this sort of larger ocean. You know, it would take a long time to do this, and I would have time and it really… It was two days. And within two days after that first email from the person running the registry site, I got an email from my birth dad. And, whew! (I'm thinking about it now, because I was sitting in the same seat I was sitting in when I got that email and like sort of in the same room. So I think I'm experiencing it again.)

It was surreal and frightening. And I sort of turned to Jell-O. I couldn't breathe, like I was short of breath, you know. It's like, Oh my God, this is happening.

Haley Radke: You're just a couple days into even realizing that you might want to search.

Derek Frank: Right.

Haley Radke: You say you feel like Jell-O, and you're like… What are your next steps? Like were you paralyzed?

I would be just like, Oh my gosh. I don't know what to do next.

Derek Frank: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [laughs] So, I reached out to the registry site. So this person had sent me, (this woman in, I think, Louisiana had sent an email), saying, “Hey, we matched you. Your birth father's looking for you.”

And I sent an email to her that was like, “What do I do? What do we do?” Like, “How do these go? Do you have any like, I don't know, tips for me?” You know? “I've assumed you've matched many people before?” And literally, she had nothing to say. There was no help.

And I was like, Okay. I guess I'm just in this on my own and see it… And my birth dad emailed me two days later and it was... I guess I didn't really have time to catch up (in some ways). And in some ways, though, I feel like that's how it has to be. Because it could just sort of rip the Band-Aid off and you have to, you know, go with whatever resources you've got.

Haley Radke; Well, we've talked about this before on the show, about, “Well, how do you prepare for reunion?” And it's kind of like, “It's almost like there's nothing you can do except for, you know… (We'll talk about doing our own work and our own therapy and stuff like to heal up before, because it can be like a rollercoaster).”

But you don't know any of that. You're like, just a couple days in. You just got the book The Primal Wound, like… Oh my goodness.

Derek Frank: Right. Well, you know, right. But I guess to your point, I had been in therapy (not specifically talking about adoption issues), but I had been in therapy for… man, I don’t know, six years before that? And a year, (probably a year before, right around the time my dad died, like a little bit after that), I was leaving my therapist's office. And she said sort of offhandedly (but I think pointedly), “And you know, you're going to have to deal with that adoption stuff at some point.” And I remember thinking, What are you talking about? Like, What do you mean?

And I trusted her enough to sort of think about it and sort of, you know, let that sink in. (I'd been with her for five or six years at that point.) And I think that that was also sort of a little kickstart. It was like, Okay, I trust her. She's usually leading me in good directions. So I guess I should also start to think about that. But it still took about a year for me to get going.

But the thing that you said, I think I sort of immediately kicked into, Okay, I need to build some sort of support network. I found an adoption therapist sort of somewhat randomly, but when I made that connection, I immediately started going to see her. She connected me with a support group and then so pretty quickly, I was building a network of people to sort of support me in this. Because I knew (I think, through therapy) that I should not be going through it alone, and that it would be very emotionally challenging.

Haley Radke: Well, that's pretty amazing, because most of us didn't have any of that. That's really great that you had that in place. Awesome. Awesome.

Derek Frank: I mean, it's definitely helped in some ways. I mean, I see that point as well, like the first time— So I met my birth father, he emailed in January and I met him in April of the same year, in person. And the weekend that I met him was the same weekend that I was attending the American Adoption Congress in San Francisco. (So this was in 2014.)

And so the first time I was meeting my birth father, I was also surrounded by like 200 to 300 people who understood my story, you know, or understood what this was all about. And I think that was another bit of sort of serendipity, but also a way of trying to make sure that I was in sort of a supported place (as best I could).

Haley Radke: So tell us a little bit about that. The email from your birth father, and your meeting and… How did that go?

Derek Frank: First, so as a filmmaker, you know, I had always thought, I'll probably make a movie about this adoption thing. You know, that doesn't matter to me, but clearly it's so important that I'm gonna make a movie about it.

So I think I'd always been holding those two opposing thoughts, or you know, but… So the first time we met, I had somebody with me with a camera, so we did our first meeting on camera. So we walked into— I had a hotel room at the conference, and he walked in, and I was there with the camera guy, and we did our first, Oh my God, there's you. In person.

You know, the thing about the first email, the first phone call, the first meeting in person, all those firsts, it is our birth parents... For adoptees who are in closed adoptions, (you know, probably don't have a lot of information or have a little bit of information), our birth parents are—they're ghosts. They're these abstract placeholders. And bringing them into the world and making them concrete is frightening. It's literally like bringing a ghost to life. Like that's the process.

And so the first email was scary, and surreal, and took my breath away. It was short, and sweet, and there was clearly a compassionate person on the other end of it, but to actually be receiving an email from my birth father… The experience of having that person be made concrete is I think what supersedes everything else. I think that's the dominant experience and feeling of like, This shouldn't be happening. Or, This isn't what's supposed to happen, on some level, because these people were kept from us for some reason.

And unless it's explained to you as a child, Exactly why is it that I can't know these people? Why is it that I can't know my family? Why is it that I can't know my history? Like what's that really, really about? I don't think anybody can really work through that. So there's got to be some reason why, you know?

I also tell people that my experience with my birth father (and those first meetings, phone calls): it's the experience of taboo. It's like, now I have a firsthand experience of really understanding what taboo means and feels like, because knowing him was a taboo. And that was something that I internalized and kept in myself. And I was so afraid of breaking it, for reasons I can't even explain. For reasons I don't fully understand. And so I think all the fear, and the sort of the surreal out-of-body experience of it, comes from that sort of central sense of taboo.

Haley Radke: Well, that is so profound. I'm just kind of trying to soak that in. Having that extra layer of bringing a ghost to life, as you said. And experiencing it in that way… (as a taboo thing). Can you tell me what it's like for you when you watch back this video? Have you… Like, do you watch it back and love it?

Derek Frank: Oof… I don't watch it back a lot. I did watch it quite a bit, around…a bit after we shot it, because I was trying to edit it together, and get a sense of like, you know, the scene, and what kind of movie I want us trying to make (and all that stuff). But I don't know that I watched it back and experienced it emotionally.

It's a lot to catch up with. I mean, it's… I feel like only now, maybe, (What are we, three years in?)... I feel like now I'm starting to catch up and have some sort of perspective on it. But at the time… You know, he died in October 2015. So we had less than two years together. So…

Haley Radke: I’m sorry.

Derek Frank: Thank you.

But you know, that all happened so quickly that I was not (and I still think I'm catching up to a lot of it). And so it's hard to have a perspective on what that first meeting means, because it— I don't have a distance from it yet, that I need to make any real sense of it. I find it keeps changing, you know, the further I go along in my journey.

Haley Radke: Well, it sounds like you're able to see, like, these multiple layers of experience and feelings, and the impact it's had on you and it's such a huge thing. It is. It's a monumental moment and transition in your life, right? Because now you know him; he's real.

Derek Frank: Yep.

Haley Radke: And there's… It's a whole shift, like, There's another person in my life. And why was he gone?

Derek Frank: Yeah, it's… But you know, it's— (I was talking about this in group the other day). You know, the thing about reunion and bringing that ghost to life is like, regardless of what happens after that, they will never go back to being ghosts. They might ghost you, they might not be in your life, you know, but they're never going to be ghosts again.

And that shift is, I think, what's so monumental. And you know, I guess one of the things, one of the parts of that that always gets me is, I don't know why it had to be that way, you know? And this is— (certainly I beat myself up a little bit about why I didn't reach out sooner).

And, What was I doing? What was I thinking? And what was I afraid of? But you know, all that emotion, he's my birth father. He wasn't a supernatural being. You know what I mean? Like he's not a— He isn't… He's not a ghost. He's just a guy. He's just a guy that I wasn't allowed to know, for reasons that were beyond me.

But that's what I reflect on a lot, or that's what I find coming up for me a lot. It's like, What?? Can I curse on this?

Haley Radke: Sure.

Derek Frank: Yeah. Why was this such a big [censored] thing?

That makes me angry? You know, like I should have known this person. And it shouldn't have had to do all this work emotionally to get ready for that. And that's what comes up for me a lot.

Haley Radke: And you had less than two years with him, you said?

Derek Frank: Yeah. Yeah.

Haley Radke: And what was your reunion? Like, did you get to spend time with him? He lived far away from you. What was your relationship like?

Derek Frank: It was good. I mean, he was… So the thing that I found out when I went into reunion with my birth family— (so that would be my birth father, my half-siblings [brother and sister], my birth father's ex-wife [who he was still close with, she reached out to me as well], and my birth aunt as well), is that I had never been a secret in that family. Like, they had kept me alive. They had talked about me; I was a known quantity to them.

The only people who didn't know about me were my siblings. And that was the— My birth father and his wife had decided to not tell them, because they felt like it should be my choice to go find them (which I appreciated, like as a show of respect). But at the same time, I think is: a) messed up, and b) as a product of the circumstance. You know?

But why should it be on me to go [censored] figure myself out and go find them? You know what I mean? Like, that's expecting a lot of me. But I understand where they were coming from on that, like I'm not angry with them, just the circumstance. So I walked into a situation in which people had been talking about me, and in which I was fully accepted. I know people were happy to see me. It was almost like there was still a place at the table for me that they had kept open.

My birth dad— I'll call him Mike, so I don't have to keep saying birth dad. Mike had told his wife on their second date about me, you know? So she had known me forever. And so when I finally found them and reached out, she said to me, she was like, “Well, I feel like I've known about you from the start, so….”

And she was beautiful. I mean, she said that she considered me a sibling to her children. And that, you know, her door was always open to me. And when I go and visit now, I stay with her. You know? So everyone there was ready for me and everyone had open arms.

Haley Radke: That's so unusual and amazing.

Derek Frank: I know.

Haley Radke: Like in my situation, my bio dad's wife also knew about me from the start, and so I think that made a big difference as well.

Derek Frank: I think often one of the by-products of adoption (and particularly closed adoption) is just the level of secrecy involved. It's just all over the place and secrets aren't conducive to strong, healthy relationships.

So, you know, as adoptees we're always (I feel like, you know) walking into places where we wonder, Are we secrets? And then oftentimes, we were a secret, or there are people hiding secrets from each other. And, you know, that's never a good situation to walk into. And I was really lucky to find that that hadn't been the case.

And in some ways, I think the fact that I realized everybody knew about me, and had talked about me, and that my grandparents had talked about me… You know, I cried when I found out my grandma had occasionally asked about me. Just like, “I wonder what happened to that baby?” Or, “I hope he's okay.” I think she called me “the little guy.” “I hope the little guy's okay.”

I just never expected to be alive to them. I just assumed they forgot about me, or maybe I was a burden, or like a shameful thing in their family history. But I wasn't. And that was really— That was a gift they gave me. And it's really healing in some ways. I didn't even realize I was wounded about it until they told me that. And I felt sort of healed.

Haley Radke: Yeah, that totally makes sense. Yeah.

So do you have a relationship with your brother and sister, then?

Derek Frank: I do. Yeah. So I should say, so my relationship with my birth father, it was… Well, there's a couple of layers here. So I think reunion isn't just about the relationship (at least not for me). I'm happy to have a relationship, and continue to build those. I think there's hard work involved there. So it's not just always like, “Hey, this is really fun.” I mean, it's— There's anxiety for me.

There's always anxiety. Like I always feel like rejection’s right around the corner, even— I mean, it's not at all from them. I know I've said it, but like… And if you saw them interact with me, or just as people, you'd be like, “No. No, that's never going to happen. They're not going to tell you to leave.” But I carry that with me into my relationships with them.

Haley Radke: Oh, yes. I know that feeling well. Every time I say goodbye to my family, I think, Is this the last time I'm going to see them? Like, Did I do something and this is it? Every time, no matter how positive it was.

Derek Frank: Yeah. Every text that doesn't get answered quickly. You know? And I guess I should say though, that there's so much that reunion’s taught me about who I am in such a myriad number of ways. But one of them was, I didn't realize what I carried with me because of adoption.

So I didn't realize that sense of rejection (and how powerful it was for me) until I was in reunion. So, until I had met my birth father (until I met Mike) and he was calling me “Son" within the first 45 minutes, you know? Like, just completely bear hugged me (and he's a huge guy). So both literally and figuratively, sort of just bear hugging me. Until I had that experience and realized that I still was afraid of rejection, that I still was afraid that he was going to decide he didn't want to talk to me, or that I was going to say something stupid, or make a joke that he didn't like or something—then I was going to be kicked out.

And I had to grapple with the fact that that was just my feelings. That was in me. It had nothing to do with anybody else. It certainly didn't have anything to do with Mike, or his family, or my siblings, or anybody. That was just my [censored] that I had to deal with. And then realizing I carried that into all my relationships. You know, like at work, at school, romantic relationships, like that feeling of, I'm about to be kicked out of the club had permeated my whole life.

But reunion was like drinking from the fire hose of that feeling, you know? Like that's the full, pure experience of it. And that was instructive for me.

Haley Radke: So you were saying about your relationship with Mike…?

Derek Frank: It was complicated. I mean, he was nothing but openhearted to me, but I, you know, there was a lot. There was—I always had anxiety around our interactions that I couldn't shake. And I think I had hoped that had we had more time, that I would have relaxed into it a bit more. And that I could have felt more comfortable in the solidness of the relationship.

I think, on the positive side of it, it was great to receive his sort of unconditional acceptance: that he wanted me there, that he wanted to know me, that he wanted me in his life. That he called me “Son,” which was confusing emotionally at times, but I understood where he was coming from on it. And it felt good to be claimed by him.

In a lot of ways, I think that the best parts about it were the acceptance, and the genetic mirroring I didn't expect to receive (and I received an abundance). I'm a very similar character to my dad, and to my brother. And getting that kind of mirroring was, I mean, life-changing. It's life-altering. And, you know, there's no way to know what you're missing until you have it. And then you get it, and all of a sudden, you're face-to-face with people who are so much like you, and look like you. It changes so much, that it's hard to really quantify.That's what I can reflect on now, in my relationship with Mike. I think as time goes on, I might get further with that.

But now I have a relationship with my siblings, and you know, I continue to visit them and continue to build those relationships. I still have some rejection stuff going on with that, that I try my best to manage. But I love having them, and I— I grew up an only child, so I didn't have siblings. And it's really interesting to come into adult sibling relationships.

Because I'm not really (because I didn't grow up with them), so I’m weirdly sort of like genetically a sibling, but culturally (or you know), kind of like a cousin, I guess of some sort. You know? It feels like I sort of both belong and don't. I mean, which is the adoptive thing, right?

Haley Radke: So I grew up an only child and I have three younger half-siblings.
So I am… I’m with you there.

Derek Frank: Right! It's—I mean, it's I don't know... Do you guys have a relationship? Do you guys…?

Haley Radke: Yeah, we are in relationship. Right now, they are between the ages of 16 and just about 21.

Derek Frank: Oh, wow. They're still like growing up.

Haley Radke: So the youngest was nine when I first met them. So they were still kiddos. So it’s different. it's a different situation than meeting them as adults, but still definitely like—

I love what you said about, like, culturally cousins. No, like genuinely that I'm like, Whoa, That kind of fits! Because you don't have a shared history of growing up in the same house. And yet your genetics are linked. And I do share a lot of similar personality traits, and sense of humor, and looks, and like those kinds of things.

So I feel that those things fit, but the missing out on the shared history. It's a big divide.

Derek Frank: Yeah, I find that. I mean, so my dad was a winemaker, so my siblings grew up in wine country in Northern California. And you know, they grew up with my dad, who was kind of an outsized character. And their mom, who was very different than my family.

And yeah, there's definitely a sense of as much as I want to feel connected, I sometimes feel like my siblings are like a team of two, you know? When I see them together sometimes, and they have their conversations, and their sidebars, and their little whispers, and their… (you know, just the way siblings do). And I realize that they're a team of two and I'm like…

We had this moment like a year ago. It was the first moment. I was like, Oh man, maybe we could be— We'll have our team, too. It'll be like, we'll be a team of three (and that'll be us). And then they'll also have their team of two, and that'll be their thing. Right? So like, But we can…

I'm never gonna be in their thing. I'm never gonna be in their team of two. Like that's theirs. Because they grew up together, they had the same experiences, they had the same parents. But we might be able to be our own team of three, you know? That's how I kind of think about it.

Like we've talked about having “Sibling Weekend.” You know, going away a little bit and just kind of hanging out together. And I feel like— I like them both, and we seem to get along. And maybe we'll have a dynamic of our own, you know, or a relationship, that's the three of us. But it's hard, because you know, you're never going to—(nor do I even want or think it's possible, or necessarily want it). But like they have their thing, you know, so I'm never going to be in that, which is fine. I mean, that's how it is.

Haley Radke: But we can still want it.

Derek Frank: Yes. Yes.Haley. I know.

Haley Radke: Well, I mean, for me, I mean, that's what's true for me. Like I still want it and it's very hard to know I'm not going to be on that team.

Like you said, like the team of two. So, yeah.

Derek Frank: No, I know. I know. I feel like that's always the struggle or the thing we were always grappling with. It's like, we can't go back and relive our lives. Like, right? I can't go back and be raised by my birth parents.

My brother has a great way of putting things. And so he was— We were talking about it, just the different experiences that we had. And he was talking about growing up with his dad. So Mike was a winemaker, but he was also a painter, and he was just sort of like a big creative dude. And when he died, we found this poetry on his computer that was like— (It was so funny, because it reminded me of poetry I wrote when I was like 17). It was very sort of sweet, and sort of adolescent in that way, but also sort of like— There was a depth of feeling to it, you know, that I recognized.

And my brother is a filmmaker, which is one of those crazy things. When we first met, it was like, Whoa. There's nature winning over nurture. But he said, “You know, it's just good to see the guy, the person in line in front of you.” And by that, he meant he got to see his dad, and he got to see what that kind of guy looks like (and the mistakes they make, and the things they do right, and sort of their strengths and their weaknesses, and how they sort of deal with those things).

And I wish I had that, because I grew up in a family where I didn't see any of that. I had no idea what I was dealing with. You know? I had no idea how to be me. If that sounds— I feel like adoptees always end up saying something like that, but that's what it feels like. It's like, I didn't see myself reflected. I had no idea what to do with myself.

Like, you know, I had these skills, and strengths, but also weaknesses. And, man, my parents had no idea what to do with that. You know? I was in a family that was not attuned to me. And so meeting my birth dad and my siblings was like, Oh, I'm not weird. I was just in the wrong place. I'm not— That wasn't my tribe. You know?

My birth family is an extroverted sort of group. They're generally sort of creative. And my adoptive family was much more dour, (sort of more engineer-y, I guess). And I just always felt… And you know, I think there's some sort of spectrum stuff going on in my adoptive family on my mom's side. I think my mom was Asperger's. I think her brother's Asperger's. And I was so not attuned to what was— So it just all felt… I felt like an alien all the time.

Family gatherings felt weird. I watch a video now of my birth family’s Christmases (and not to sort of project onto them), but like just looking at the people and how they present themselves, like my grandparents, my aunt, my dad, some cousins, it's like, Oh, yeah. I recognize those people. I get that. That feels normal to me in a way that my adoptive family never felt normal.

And you know, I even visited my sister. She's got three little boys. So she's got a four-month-old, a two-year-old, and a four-year-old. And when I stayed there, you know, that I feel a connection to those little boys, that is really interesting for me to experience, because I don't think I've ever felt something like that before. Like they're not my kids, but I feel super connected to them. Yeah, that's a long— So one of our strengths and weaknesses is ADD, which means I get to just sort of ramble and think laterally a lot.

Haley Radke: No, it's beautiful. You're talking about these things and what it's coming up for me is— My adoptive parents were both elementary school teachers and in a very small rural community (which was culturally and religiously Mennonite, and they were not). So all the school teachers were all friends, because they were not Mennonite.

Anyway, all that to say, if all their friends would always be like, “Oh, so you're going to be a teacher when you grow up.” You know, like it was very much— And I was like, “Never, never, no.” And It, you know, it's funny because I don't know that I wouldn't have been suited to that career, but I— There was something inside me that was like, No, that's not me. That's not where I fit.

So when you were just explaining that, about the similarities with your bio family and, you know, dissimilarities with your adoptive family, I was like, that was coming up for me. I'm like, Ugh, no. I'm not going to be a teacher.

Derek Frank: Yeah, I feel like that's a— Do you know, do you think you were doing that because of how you…was that sort of like you pushing back a little bit and trying to claim something for yourself? Or was that like a legitimate, or like a deep sense of like, That just doesn't feel right?

Haley Radke: No, it was the first. It was more that I'm like, No. These are not my people. This is not who I'm meant to be. (Not that I knew, either).

Derek Frank: Right, right. Was this conscious do you mean? Or do you think it was more of at a gut level?

Haley Radke: Uh-uh. Gut level. Yeah.

Derek Frank: Right, right.

Haley Radke: Yeah. Anyway, it's so funny. Not that there's anything wrong with being a teacher. I have lots of friends that are teachers.

Derek Frank: Oh, no, I'm a teacher. I didn't take that in any way. A lot of people don't want to be teachers. My wife doesn't want to be a teacher. She's like, “I don't know how you do what you do, because I could never do that!”

Haley Radke: Well, it's funny now, because, I don't really like kids all that much. And now that I'm a parent, I like my own kids. I like my friends' kids. I still…yeah. Teaching’s not for me.

Okay, now that your dad has passed away, has that changed your relationship at all with your siblings? Has that brought up other things for you?

Derek Frank: Well, it's a hard question to answer, because it all happened so quickly. I think our relationships all would have changed anyway, because I felt like this last visit I took… (So we've been— Now it's 2017, so three years, I guess).

So we've been in reunion three years, and I felt like in this last visit (a few months ago), I finally was getting really into the relationship, like really, really. Like, seeing the fault lines in the family, and seeing the places where there was real tension, and people were talking to me about issues that they had. And I was getting a sense of what a real family is, (which is not just sort of like, “Oh, we all love each other and this is all great. And, you know, we're so happy to see you.”) It's also, “And these are the hard parts.” And I think that we would have gotten there anyway. And I don't know how Mike not being around has altered that. I don't really have a sense of that, because I think that was going to come, hopefully.

I mean, and you hope for that, right? Like, on the one hand, it's a little harder, but on the other hand, there's a truth in that. And I was feeling some of these tensions anyway, and to have them finally unearthed and addressed was like, Thank God. Like I was feeling this weird thing and I didn't know what it was, and now I get it. Like I get where people are coming from, in a more real way.

And I bring that up, I suppose, because I asked on this last trip (individually) to my siblings and Mike's ex-wife, just kind of like…, (because we haven't talked about Mike's death). And I just wanted to know, “Is this a family where people talk about that stuff? Or is this the kind of thing where we're not going to sit around and talk about it?” I just kind of wanted to know what the family culture was, I guess.

Only recently, really, did the grief hit me hard enough that I could, well, cry and then try to start processing some of it (like, it took a long time). It took almost a full year for me to get to that place, where I could feel the pain enough to start, you know, being able to process it. I wasn't numb anymore. And I would have liked to talk to my siblings about it, but I don't know that they were in a place to do that, or that that's how they process it.

I was being—I was sort of like dancing around it. Not dancing. I was just like, “Do we talk about this or not?” And I got the sense that we don't. So. Which is not a— That's fine. I mean, that's how everyone's got to do what they do. I mean, it's… My dad died already. I had, you know, I've been through it once. Like the dad I grew up with, he died, and I went through that grief. So I know it's hard, and I know… Anyway, that's—I'd say where those relationships stand right now.

Haley Radke: Thank you for sharing that. Thanks.

Derek Frank: Sure.

Haley Radke: Okay. So we have spent a lot of time talking about your dad, and finding your siblings, and all of these things. Did you search for your birth mother?

Derek Frank: I…. Well, again, I didn't need to search really because I had her name, and I believe I know where she is. And I haven't reached out. What can I say about that?

Well, I'm [censored] scared as hell, and I'm only barely in touch with how frightened I am. I've been putting it off. I'm really upset that Mike died before I could find her or meet her. I think I had a dream of having them together in the same room. And I don't know how realistic that was or anything, but I definitely had that fantasy.

You know (I don't know, maybe you can ask me a question about this), but I found my adoption thing has been very opposite to most people. Like I didn't fantasize about a birth mother much. I fantasized about a birth father. And that was always in my head. And then, my reunion has been backwards, you know?

I found my birth father's family first, my birth father (that was the big relationship), and my birth mother has been sort of like to the side of that, or in the background. And I've come to realize in, you know, adoptee circles, like, that's not normal. That's not how most fantasies go, and most reunions go.

Haley Radke: Yeah, that is very interesting. I guess when I was interviewing Liz Latty, we talked about our fathers, because we both are in reunion with our fathers. And my first mother has rejected me. So I had a brief reunion with her (four months), and then she ghosted me. So...

Derek Frank: I'm sorry.

Haley Radke: Thank you. So that's been over 10 years and— But anyway, what Liz and I were talking about was how we picture our mothers, because we're like in their womb, and we're like walking around with them for nine months. And so often, the fathers are like just this secondary thought, like one moment in time, you know?

So that's so interesting. Can you say more about that? So when you were younger, you were picturing him, not—(or, I mean, not him)...?

Derek Frank: Yeah, no, I know. I thought about him a lot more like rock stars, and like famous athletes… You know what I mean? Like you…whatever. Silly. Like at some point, I think, you know, there was like Sting. There was like, you know, any blonde-haired, blue-eyed guy who was on TV, it was like, Maybe, yeah, that could be it. Yeah. But that was where my thoughts usually went.

Haley Radke: And so now, what is it? You're frightened… What are you frightened of? That she's going to reject you right off the bat? Or…

Derek Frank: [laughs] I don't know that I can pinpoint it. It's, you know… There's a deep fear that doesn't come up in, like… There's no words attached to it. You know what I mean? Like, that's how far down it is.

You know, adoptee issues sort of mingle with all your other stuff, right? So whatever you were born with, and whatever other experiences you had (sort of adoption issues), just kind of commingle with those things. I mean, they push them in different directions, or they can turbo-boost certain things. Like, if you're an anxious person, or you were naturally going to be sort of afraid of change, or relationships are going to be hard, or whatever— Adoption issues can really push that stuff into overdrive. So I think for me…

Do you know much about Asperger's or have you heard much about that?

Haley Radke: Not really. No.

Derek Frank: So my understanding of it is, you know, it's a spectrum disorder. And one of the main struggles that Asperger's folks have is reading the emotions of other people. So they have trouble with social cues, they have trouble with facial expressions, they have trouble with sarcasm (for instance).

Anything where they, you know, you're sort of reading between the lines, or you're reading context and social cues, Asperger's folks will often struggle with that. So you have to imagine what it would be like to grow up with a mother who didn't read social cues, who didn't understand emotional cues, who couldn't look at you and have any sense of what you were thinking or feeling.

I think over the years, I've sort of recognized that as a profound rejection and that I felt it as rejection. And I think the tragedy of it is, I don't think it was intended. I don't— My mom isn't a malicious person, but I find it so painful to be in relationship with her, and so difficult.

And I've worked really hard to just be able to sort of maintain a very distanced relationship that I can manage, because her deficiencies felt like personal rejection. And I know now that they weren't, but that doesn't change how it feels at a gut level. And so I feel like my adoptee issues commingle with the son of a spectrum disorder person, and I think whatever fears I had of rejection from a mother have been multiplied exponentially.

That's how I think about it. I think that's what I— It's like an intellectual guess. That's what I think is what's going on. I would not say that I feel it with such clarity. It just feels scary.

Haley Radke: Well, thank you for sharing that. That it makes so much sense. I have so much empathy and I just… Ugh, I cry every episode. Okay.

I have so much empathy for adoptees and all of the things and burdens that we've carried and, you know, we work so hard on healing different areas of our life. And yet, it feels like, you know, full healing is just always out of reach. And there's always just one more big thing that we have to work on before X, Y, Z happens, or whatever.

So anyway, I hope that you are able to work through that in some way, that you can come to a joyful decision about that, whatever way it goes.

Derek Frank: Thank you.

Haley Radke: Okay. So, let's shift and talk about some healing and creativity. When I asked you a few of these other questions about your grief and things, and you say that these feelings don't have words, you know, they're so deep down kind of a thing. And a lot of adoptees, you know, we would say that we have preverbal trauma from being relinquished at birth (if that was our experience).

And so, from talking to some, you know, art therapists and et cetera, (and just from my own observations), I really feel like when we do different creative things (whatever that is. For me, it is actually making the podcast. For others, it's painting, or other visual art)--- Those allow us to release some of those feelings and put them out in art, instead of finding words for them.

Have you had any of that kind of experience, I guess?

Derek Frank: Grief is such a big part of this experience. And the more I go through it, the more I sort of recognize it in myself and other people. And the pain that we have that we didn't even know was pain, or the grief that we had that we didn't know was grief, that's something that I feel a lot, both in the creative work we do and other people's creative work (and just in general, talking to adoptees).

I do have an interesting sort of, (two interesting things, I guess). I think the first is that I made my first film in grad school. And so my thesis film was a 15 minute short story, short narrative film. But the premise of it was that this woman wakes up one day and she tells her fiancé that her name really isn't Sarah, and that her name's really Julie. And that's it. And but they have this sort of, you know, intellectual debate about it/breakup.

And revisiting that 15 years later, being in reunion and having really started to delve into the adoptee stuff, I look back at that and I'm like, I was [censored] dealing with it then. I didn't know I was dealing with it. But I was interested in identity, and they spend a lot of the time arguing about identity, and what names mean, and how that affects who you are. And the title of the film is actually By Any Other, like, “a rose by any other name would smell as sweet.”

And I'm like, I look back at it now and I'm like, I'm obviously, obviously dealing with adoptee identity stuff. There's no question in my mind that that's what I'm working through. But even at the time, I didn't really know what I was doing, you know? I didn't know that that's what I was working through.

And we had this saying in film school, because we all— I went to film school and we all got to know each other really well. And we knew each other's families, and we knew each other's sort of backgrounds (to some extent). And we used to look at each other's work and be like, “Can't hide from your art. It's going to be in there.”

And what we meant was, “If you have daddy issues, that's in your art.” “If you have issues with self esteem, that's in your art.” You're never going to be able to hide from your art. If you're doing it right, it's going to show up: who you are, what you're experiencing emotionally. Like how you emotionally walk in the world, that's going to be in there.

And so I fundamentally believe that art is a way that we access parts of ourselves that we can't consciously get to, or that we can't get to in any other way. Because we're not doing it intellectually, we're doing it emotionally. I'll tell students now (because I made this mistake a lot), “You're making a movie. It's not, you're not writing a paper. Like if you're giving me a page about why you're making this movie and it sounds like a thesis, don't make that movie. Because you're not approaching it emotionally.”

That's where art comes from, right? Like we're trying to express feelings. We're trying to express these things that don't rationally or logically necessarily work together or make sense. We're trying to get out these other things.

So that's definitely something that I try to follow as a filmmaker, and that when I'm teaching other filmmakers (young filmmakers), I try to impart that as well. Like, “You're not writing a paper. So get out of your head and get into your body.” You know, “Get into how you feel.” So that's one thing I'd say.

And then, I had a friend who runs a program for high school filmmakers from— Generally speaking, the kids who come to the program are from difficult backgrounds. And so art therapy is a big component of what they do there. And the films that I've seen these kids make… Because they go through a curriculum that has a good deal of art therapy involved in it, and there's art therapists in the premises there. And that school does painting and they do other things as well, not just film. But the films I've seen them make often have much more depth emotionally than stuff I see my college students make.

So there's 15-year-olds there who are working through (who are being helped to work through) their own emotional stuff, and it's showing up in their art. And they're making this really resonant kind of art that my college students struggle with, because they're not emotionally able to do it yet. Or they're not emotionally able to go to a place where they're being honest, you know, about what they feel.

So I saw that stuff, I saw my friend do that work, probably 12 years ago. And that stuck with me as well, you know? And if I was going to do another career, I think art therapy might be a part of it. Like, I think there's a lot of important stuff there, you know, that art therapists do, and expressive, creative expressive therapists.

Haley Radke: Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. There's so many— It's the depths that we have to plumb for them to get those things out, right?

Derek Frank: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And I mean, it's just like, you know, there's, I was holding so many emotions at arm's length and it was only sort of like…

And I was struggling with that a lot, and only I found actually going through reunion has opened those things up for me, so that I'm making art that's more emotionally resonant. But it was because I had locked up so many feelings that I couldn't make art that I could express enough. Because I couldn't, I wouldn't allow myself to touch any of it, you know?

So I've actually found that I feel better as a filmmaker having started reunion and opened up a lot of that emotional space that I just had locked away for so long.

Haley Radke: Oh, so good. So many good things. So where can people connect with you online?

Derek Frank: Facebook is probably the best place.

Haley Radke: Okay. So you can find your page. It's Six Word Adoption Memoir Project on Facebook.

Derek Frank: There we go.

Haley Radke: Wonderful. Thank you so much for your time. I've so enjoyed hearing your story. Thank you for sharing it with us.

Derek Frank: Well, thanks for talking with me.

Haley Radke: Absolutely.

What a great conversation. Oh my goodness. So, so good.

Okay. Now let's move into the conversation with Derek and Ridg together.

And so I have Ridg and Derek here with me, and we are going to dig in to talking about the Six Word Adoption Memoir Project.

Welcome back, you guys.

Derek Frank: Thanks for having us again.

Ridghaus: Thanks, Haley.

Haley Radke: Yes. So, I need to know, where did you come up with the idea for this?

Ridghaus: It was all Derek. We were talking. We'd gone to Jean Strauss's workshop at a conference in San Francisco and both of us had kind of asked questions that alerted one another to the fact that we were filmmakers.

And so Derek and I spent the next year kind of talking about one of Jean's missives, which was that she wanted to make more films of shorter length. And so with that kind of directive, we thought, Okay, we've got some skills here. So we talked about other ways to do that.

Derek Frank: And I think just for me, when Andrew and I met, that was my first adoptee conference. And so I was also hearing all these different people tell their stories and I was always thinking like, These are all amazing.

And as a storyteller and a filmmaker, you know, my ears were— My sort of radar was picking things up from that. And so then when I met Andrew, it was like, Oh man, we got to do something. We're in a room with like 200 people and everyone's got something amazing to say.

Haley Radke: Oh my goodness. Okay. So what year was that?

Derek Frank: 2014.

Haley Radke: Okay. So it took you about a year to figure out what you were going to do in it.

Derek Frank: Yeah.

Haley Radke: And what were your next steps?

Ridghaus: Well, I don't think we really figured out what we were going to do. I had mentioned a visual aspect. I mean, aside from having someone sit, you know, and talk about their story, I wanted something visually to represent that story.

And of course, I came up with these hugely long, you know… We'd have to follow people for weeks afterwards to get the right kind of B-roll. And Derek had just gone through the Six-Word Novel/Memoir exercise with his support group. And so he said, “Hey, what about this?”

So, that just kind of morphed into having people write down their six words and we can film that, you know, to function in kind of a B-roll, and kind of a revelatory capacity. But it also gave them something to concentrate on, so they weren't worried about a mic and a camera. But even then, I don't think we knew what we quite had.

Derek Frank: No. Well, also, so let me shout out to Katie G. Katie is the support group leader who came up with the—or who brought the Six-Word to us. I mean, the Six-Word Memoir has been around for a long time, but she brought the Six-Word into group and that was really what sort of— That's what I brought to Ridghaus.

So Katie was really the one who sort of started it. I like to tease Katie, or apologize for not giving her credit.

Haley Radke: You know, she doesn't have a producer credit at the back?

Derek Frank: She's not in the credits, although I think she should be. In the next one we make, she should be in there.

Ridghaus: It's cool. We can do that.

Derek Frank: Yeah. Yeah. You know, it’s not like I came up with it. You know, the other thing I remember we were going back and forth with was, again, in the sense of like, “What are you supposed to look at?” Because film is visual, and just sitting and just watching people sit there and talk is not necessarily all that interesting.

Ridghaus: Compelling.

Derek Frank: Compelling, yeah.

We did have a lot of discussion about, “Well, what the heck can we shoot?” Like, “What can we film that will be interesting to look at?” (And Andrew/Ridghaus, maybe you remember this), but there was like a… I feel like it was a video of maybe homeless people? It was like a project about homelessness…?

Ridghaus: Yeah. So we had done… Well, other people have done this too, but I'd been involved in a project where we did cardboard stories, you know? People kind of held up their story and then they'd flip the cardboard over and it would kind of be the reveal. So that was something that we had mentioned, and I think that's how we kind of got to the place of, “Let's have them write their words down.”

Derek Frank: That's right.

Ridghaus: So there was a lot of— I mean one of the truly magical things (and you know I make no secret of you know, how fond I am for Derek and the work we've done), but Derek's an exceptional interviewer. And he really (between the two of us), we create a really safe space for people to talk.

And, you know, we cry with them. But, Derek asks the right questions that help pull the story out. And then it makes it far easier to kind of put back together in post.

Derek Frank: Aw, well, that's… I always think— (it's nice of you to say), but I always feel like the fact that we have them, we have like their thesis statement (the six words). And so everything in post, like when we edit it, can all go back to that. So it gives us an anchor, rather than me asking any good questions.

And people really— You know, they want to tell their story. And they've come into the room and they're really open with us, which is a continual gift, you know, that we can sit there and people will just tell us about their lives.

Haley Radke: It is such a gift to hear stories. I interview adoptees about some very deep and private feelings that they have about adoption. And so do you. And are you— I have been stunned by some of the things people have revealed. And I think I might have been the first person they've ever told this to.

Have you had moments like that?

Ridghaus: Yeah, actually, I mean, there are probably three or four stories that I can think of where we got to the end of it, and it was almost like they were surprised that they talked about that. Like, they had put something together that maybe had lived outside of that synthesis, and it was finally like, “Oh, okay. All right.”

And there were a couple of people who reached out as we were finishing post and they were like, “Hey, listen, I know you're about to show these. Did you happen to include, you know, the part where I talked about, you know, this or that?” And I'm like, “No, of course not. It's… We want you to have total freedom when you're talking, but not worry about, you know, we're gonna spin off some sordid tale that you just happened to tangentially relate to your Six Words.” So…

Derek Frank: And well, we both did the Six Words in Denver. We both sat in front of the camera and did that. And I felt like because you don't get to talk about it that much, when you get to sit down and actually just talk about it, things start to come out. Or you start to put two and two together in a way that maybe you hadn't before?

Ridghaus: Yeah.

Derek Frank: So, just the opportunity to speak out loud about it is, I found, actually kind of liberating.

Haley Radke: I did speak to someone who you interviewed and, you know, she told me that you did indeed tear up when she did. It made her feel so safe with you both.

Ridghaus: Well, Derek's got this great big ol’ heart. He just kind of fills the room.

Derek Frank: Oh, God...

Ridghaus: No, it's awesome. I mean, I remember one time, we were cutting on Six Word Adoption Memoirs 1. This interview lasted about 40 minutes. And, you know, we're trying to get these stories down under two (and really when I'm being tyrannical, you know, I want them under a minute-and-a-half). Just because there's such emotion in them, that letting it kind of spill out into two, three minutes long… It's a lot.

We interviewed her for so long, we ran out of tape. So we had to switch cards and then continue the interview. And somewhere in there, one of us had handed her Kleenex. So, as we're hearing her story and trying to recreate it chronologically (because, you know, it came at different points in the interview). We had continuity errors, because one time she's holding a tissue, and the other time she's not, and then she's holding tissue again. And I'm like, you know, so I'm in post and I'm like, Do I roto this out? Like, Do I roto the tissue out?

So, I mean, it was a struggle, but I know that I feel the sacredness of their story. And it's moving. It's just beautiful stuff.

Derek Frank: Yeah, I mean, I definitely remember... I feel like I remember crying with birth mothers a lot, and I think that that has as much to do with… I mean, getting to interview people about something that's really meaningful to you, and that you're still exploring for yourself, is like its own kind of therapy. Listening to their stories, and sort of connecting with them, and feeling them is kind of a way of feeling it for yourself, but with a slightly safe distance, you know?

It's not– I don't have to experience all the pain of it. I can experience the sort of…whatever, you know... A safe fraction of that, that I can still connect to. So I do, yeah. I do cry sometimes with the birth mothers, for sure. And probably with some other people.

Haley Radke: Well, the person I spoke to was an adoptee, and she had nothing but very kind things to say about you both.

Derek Frank: Aw, that’s sweet.

Haley Radke: You know, you were mentioning recording in Denver. Do you want to give us a peek behind the scenes? I think you have been recording at conferences. Is that right?

Ridghaus & Derek Frank: Yeah.

Ridghaus: So we started in Boston in 2015 (the year after we met at San Francisco). And we shot as many interviews as we could, in kind of two half-day segments. Maybe it was really like one-quarter of a day and then, you know, half or three-quarters.

We felt like we got incredible stories. We weren't sure what to do. And then once we premiered that version next year in Denver, we shot almost three times as much. And so we were just exhausted at the end of a long shoot day. And then last year, we went to Tampa and shot three birth mothers. We'll be coming to Austin and shooting some interviews there (with the AKA conference), the first weekend of November.

Derek Frank: Yeah, but if it's behind the scenes you want, we're in a hotel room and we've pushed the bed up against a wall somehow, or pushed a mattress up against a wall. And in Denver, we were sitting on the slats of the bed.

Ridghaus: So I answered the wrong question. That's what you're saying.

Derek Frank: No, no. I'm just adding more information. Just filling it out.

Ridghaus: Go ahead and edit the first part of my response. Just go straight with…we should start this one over. So yeah, behind the scenes, Derek, do you want to handle the…

Haley Radke; I'm not cutting that out. That's fantastic. [laughs]

*Derek Frank: No, but I think what's funny about it is people walk into basically a hotel room and Andrew sets up lights and we've got a camera set up near the bed. And I think people walk in and they're like, “Okay, what are we doing in here?”

But it's really, we're just camped out in that room and we have a chair that's lit and people can sit in it and look good. We sit there and interview them. And then they leave and then the next person comes in. And in Denver we did that for like 13 hours or something?

Haley Radke: Oh my goodness!

Ridghaus: Mhmm, yeah. It was a long shoot.

Derek Frank: It was a long day. And, you know, Andrew's capturing the close-ups, sort of where they're just looking into the camera, doing that stuff. Yeah, so that's essentially what it looks like. And then maybe we eat at some point.

Ridghaus: Yeah, actually in Denver, we had Luke and Rich run over to Burger Shack, or something.

Derek Frank: Yeah, that's right. That's right.

Ridghuas: Picked up some stuff for us to kind of gobble in between.

Derek Frank: You know, what's nice about Denver though is we also picked up people who just hung out and helped us out. And kind of stuck around for like seven hours, you know, who just wanted to be part of it, too.

Ridghaus: Yeah, yeah. Denver is great.

And you know, and Dave (Dave Quint)--- We were fortunate to have another filmmaker at the conference. And so he actually put us in front of the camera, which is something that we didn't really have. We didn't have somebody with that skill set. And so Dave put us in front of the camera, and so we each got to share our own Six Word Memoir.

Derek Frank: And mine didn't make the final cut, because to be fair, I was 13 hours in. I don't think I really told a story, just this kind of rambled for about 20 minutes. Ridghaus did a great job. If you want to be better at me than mein something, I think your Six Word was stellar.

Haley Radke: So you need a redo, Derek.

Derek Frank: I feel like I need a redo, for sure. Yeah, yeah.

But that's the thing about it. It's like, I didn't think about it. You know, I just kind of did it and whatever came out, came out. And I feel like the beauty of it is that that can happen sometimes. And people just sort of talk and whatever comes out, comes out. And that's a good place to be, you know? You're just talking and whatever you say is what you're meant to be saying.

Haley Radke: So how did you get people to sign up for this? I mean, you mentioned before, Ridg, like these are really emotional, and you're capturing such an intimate part of someone's story. How do people set… Like, with my podcast, no one has to be on camera. It's just audio, they can be anonymous. It feels a little more intimidating to be on video.

Derek Frank: It's probably true. Yeah.

Ridghaus: You know… I would certainly agree with that, Haley. I think that it might be easier to just talk, but we set up everything ahead of time. You know, we've got the audio going, we've got the backdrop and the lights, and we've got our camera dialed in, so that when somebody sits down, we're not fiddling with a lot of things.

They basically sit down and they, and they start talking. And that's, again, testament to Derek's quality as a producer, to be able to just talk to someone and kind of let them forget that all of this is going into an electronic recording.

Derek Frank: Well, you know, the other thing too, is you're doing the B-roll of them writing their Six Words. So they come in and they're actually writing their Six Words and we're shooting some of that. So I feel like they're already prepped before they sit down and go to talk.

I guess I do—I feel like Boston, we got people; Ridghaus mostly just corralling people and, you know, taking friends in and being like, “Hey, you want to do this?” And then Denver was people saw the first one, and I feel like that was sort of like, Okay, I would like to be a part of this, I think.

Ridghaus: Well, yeah, that's why we had a 13 hour queue.

Derek Frank: Right, right.

Ridghaus: Like, as soon as we showed it in the big room, everybody was like, I'm doing that. There's a lot of trust and honor. I think that we are honored with the trust that people give us, in that we've handled these stories, you know, in a meaningful and thoughtful way.

Derek Frank: Yeah, because it is like you have to— I feel like there's (and actually someone said this in Boston) that someone a few years ago had come by and recorded people's stories, and then no one ever heard from those people, that person again who had recorded the stories.

Ridghaus: Yeah.

Derek Frank: And so, you know, there is a sense of trust that I think we had to earn. And the first folks who came in, I think, had no idea what they were getting into. They were mostly doing it… I think large— Let's say 75% were doing it for Ridghaus, because he asked.

Haley Radke: Well, it sounds like now that you've had so much more exposure, you're gonna have a longer day than 13 hours.

Derek Frank: [laughs]

Ridghaus: Well, I think, actually Haley, your model of setting up a schedule, I think is something that we need to begin integrating, because there are a lot of stories out there. And we want to hear them all. But, you know, with our budget, we just can't.

Haley Radke: Since starting the podcast—(I'm about a little over a year in). I basically had to, you know, close my waiting list because, similarly, I do not have the capacity to hear everyone's. And I wish I did. I really wish we had, you know, infinite resources to share people's stories.

So it is really challenging to say no, you know, because I never want to convey to someone like, “No, your story is not as important. So I can't. I don't have space for you.” Like I just… We've had enough rejection in our lives that I don't want to pile on, especially…

Ridghaus: Yeah, exactly.

Derek Frank: Yeah, I agree.

Haley Radke: Can you tell me some of the reactions that you've had once you've screened these? And then later on, once you've put them online for the general public to see?

Ridghaus: With the Six Word Adoption Memoirs, when we premiered in Denver, I think we were still cutting at the point. I mean, we were pretty much done cutting by the time (about two weeks before the show, before the conference), but the stories were still so tender in us, that I had yet to get through just watching it and making edits without crying.

And when we premiered, it was that way, too. But the audience responded the same way. Like they were moved to a degree that… It was just overwhelming. Like, I mean (I'm sure Derek remembers), but every time we went to talk for like the next 20-30 minutes, our voices were breaking up from the emotionality of it.

Derek Frank: You know what I remember doing was cutting. Remember we cut like a first one as a test, before we knew what it was. And I think it was Kathy's story? And I remember cutting it and it was just like… (I finished. It was like a long version of it, it was probably like two-and-a-half minutes). But I cut it, and I was like— I remember texting Andrew or emailing and saying like, “Oh my God, like I'm— This is moving, to me. I don't know.”

That was enough. You know, it was like, Okay, well, if this is doing this to me, like, hopefully other people will feel it, too.

Ridghaus: Yeah. And Derek cut five stories, I think. We put them under Transatlanticism by…

Derek Frank: Death Cab.

Ridghaus: Death Cab, yeah. And there was something about the pacing, you know, the piano, the guitar that we tried, we then tried to find music that had a similar VPM and tonal resonance to it. And I think we did for the first one. I really like our soundtrack for the second one, but we actually hired that out.

Haley Radke: So, something we have been fighting towards, I feel like, (in the adoptee adoption community here) is getting people to understand that separation from our family of origin is traumatic. And I feel like your videos are so impactful.

Now, do you—I don't know, like there is something so moving and powerful about it, that I think it has the power to shift people's perspectives about adoption. What are your thoughts on that? (And I'm talking big picture, changing the societal narrative about adoption.)

Do you think that your project has the momentum to do that?

Derek Frank: Well…

Ridghaus: The short answer is yes. Without going too much into that, Derek’s comment about hearing so many incredible stories, these stories are— they only come up at conferences, or they come up in support groups, or something like that. So these narratives are hidden from the public at large.

And so we wanted to find a medium by which we could distribute these more broadly, so that they could seep into the cultural consciousness. And I think once people begin to see the breadth of experiences that people have in the adoptive journey, from outright atrocious to, “I'm so thankful for all parts of my families.” I think that can shift cultural consciousness towards how adoption is perceived now.

Derek Frank: I think for me, like, you know… That first conference in 2014 was the first time I had— I was probably only a couple months in, maybe a year, into really thinking about adoption and how it impacted my life. And really how I felt about it and exploring that.

And being surrounded by so many stories, you know, I did have that moment of like, Well, why the hell haven't I heard this stuff before? You know, Why…? Everyone's story is so complicated, and so emotional, and so nuanced, and has all these facets to it. How come no one's talking about this? Like, that's how I felt.

And I think that was kind of also why I wanted to capture some stories and make something, make a movie of some sort about it. Because, I don't know… I just hadn't heard any of this before. I just knew my story and that was it.

Haley Radke: Well, and there's something so powerful, too… So for my podcast, having a voice, someone's story. And then your video project—I mean, seeing someone's face and hearing their words, you know, coming out of their mouth... I mean, you can't argue with, “This is my lived experience and I am saying it out of my mouth” And you can see, like, you know…

Derek Frank: Yeah.

Haley Radke: Yeah, so powerful.

Derek Frank: No, that's true. It's embodied in a way.

And I think— Andrew/Ridghaus, what's the thing that you would say to people? Do you remember when you were doing the B-roll, you sort of had this little patter that you were giving them, about what you were doing?

Ridghaus: Yeah. So, I think the most uncomfortable part of the experience was when I would catch the closeup portrait at the end, (you know, that we come back and forth to, at various points). And what I wanted them to think about is: you are in the store, you know, and this is someone who, having heard your story, could turn, and look, and just see you. And look in your face and understand, you know, “This is your experience. That you are just like they are.” You know? “Just like they are, you've just had these other experiences.”

So, I wanted there to be a level of humanity that was immediately present in that portrait, in that closeup.

Derek Frank: I also feel like any sort of emotional power that it has, too, though, is somewhat related to such an unrecognized sort of minority as adoptees/adopted people. You know? Like in a set of experiences that are sort of invisible to the public at large.

And so, some of it is just sort of the shock of hearing story after story, in ways that you've never heard them before. And even for adoptees, I think, to hear all of those together. And be like, “Oh!” And recognize yourself in them. Because I recognize myself in all the stories, you know?

And there's something— I wonder if we do well, if we make enough projects, and if we tell enough stories, and it starts to seep in: Would the emotional power diminish? Because, “Okay, now everyone understands. It's not surprising anymore.” And that would be a good thing, but I wonder about that, like 10 years from now, like, “Oh, adoption is sad. That's not surprising to me. I know. Everyone knows that.”

Ridghaus: Yeah.

Haley Radke: Oh my gosh, 10 years. Can you imagine?

Derek Frank: [laughs] I do often.

Ridghaus: But you know, it's taken us so long to get here. Like to get to this place, it's, you know, 100 years of…whatever.

Derek Frank: No, that's right. You have to remember that I've come of age and come sort of to consciousness around adoption stuff at a particular moment in history, when already so much work has been done. Haley Radke: That's right.

Ridghaus: And I think one of the things that we didn't really get to mention was, Derek had mentioned documentarian Sean Dunne. And he had performed some of these closeups, you know, of interviewees’ faces in a documentary he called Florida Man. And…

Derek Frank: That's right. That's right.

Ridghaus: Yeah. And how he was able to just kind of suspend a moment in time and see, you know, a human being was beautiful. And so that's what we wanted to capture in this.

So I don't know—I mean, even if I think the narrative does infiltrate the social consciousness of [adoption], there's a breadth of emotions around adoption. And we want it, where it has to happen, to be better than it is. That even then, I still feel like these are beautiful stories. And people will still be attentive, because they're human.

Derek Frank: Yeah. I agree with that too, actually. And I'm glad you mentioned Florida Man, because that's a beautiful film. It's free on Vimeo, I believe, if people want to check that out.

Yeah. And the stories, you know— The thing about adoption stories (and David Quint, again, talked about, we had a great conversation about this) that adoption stories have so much, just like the basics of myths and stories, you know, family stuff, and intimate relationship stuff, and secrets, and they're just like…

I mean, there's a reason adopted narratives get used in all kinds of popular culture, and entertainment, myths, and Greek tragedy, and the Bible, and… You know? Stories of adopted people are sort of inherently dramatic, and interesting, and meaningful.

Haley Radke: Wow. Thank you guys so much.

Is there anything else that you want to touch on that I didn't ask you about, before we go on? Like, Derek, is there anything, you know, super kind you want to say to Ridghaus? Because he's been complimenting you up there.

Derek Frank: He has been, apparently, just to make me uncomfortable. [all laugh]

You know what I was going to say though, is, so I remember going in and doing the first 6WAM in Boston, and we had talked about Florida Man, and we talked about what we were going to try to do. But then I remember seeing the footage back the first time and being like, Oh man, he got it.

And not only did he do it (because he shot it and he lit it. And so the look was his). And I was like, Man, not only is it the thing that I said I hoped we would do, but I think it looks better than what I had hoped. And that's always awesome when you collaborate with somebody, and then they sort of one up what you're hoping for. I don't think I ever told him that, but that's true.

Ridghaus: Thank you.

Derek Frank: There you go.

Haley Radke: There you go.

Derek Frank: On your podcast.

Haley Radke: Yes, forever. I am going to, of course, recommend people go and check out the Six Word Adoption Memoir Project. And I'm wondering, is there any way that, like… How can people support this project if they just fall in love with it, like I have?

Ridghaus: Well, you know, you can write us into your will.

Haley Radke: Hmm. Okay. Yep.

Ridghaus: That's a good question, Haley. I don't know if we have an answer for that yet. Last year…

Derek Frank: We'd like to have an answer.

Ridghaus: Yeah, last year we had a person give us a couple of checks, you know, just to cover some of our expenses to do this. Because, you know, really this is—I mean, this is something that we just believe in. And we don't yet have a model for support. I saw, do you have a Patreon on your page?

Haley Radke: I sure do.

Ridghaus: Yeah. And maybe that's something we need to look at, but right now, directing other people to go to the site, share it, come to our Facebook page: 6WAM Project, Six Word Adoption Memoir Project is what it’s called.

Derek Frank: That's it. Yeah.

Ridghaus: 6WAM Project is in the slashes. 6WAM project. You know, like the page, offer comments…

Derek Frank: Yeah. Say hi when you see us.

Haley Radke: All right. And write you into their wills.

Ridghaus: Yes. Write us into the wills. We are non-profitable. [laughter]

Haley Radke: Well, I imagine it costs more than podcasting, and ditto. [laughter]

Ridghaus: Well, actually, we're fortunate in that both of us work for film schools. And so, we know people, we have access to good gear. We could work on post for almost no expense at all. So a lot of these, a lot of the costs are deferred through our professional institutions.

Haley Radke: Oh, that's awesome. That's really great. Oh, okay.

Before we get to recommending the resources, Ridg, when I interviewed Derek and he was telling me his story, I said, “Oh my gosh, you guys!” When you're describing your birth fathers, I was like, Are you talking about the same person?

Ridghaus: Hmm. Yeah.

Haley Radke: You have so many similarities. I mean, it's so interesting that you found each other.

Ridghaus: Yeah. That's— I mean, honestly, that's something that I cherish about Derek is having those experiences, but it's also heartbreaking that our birth fathers were never able to sit, meet, you know, share wine, and…

Derek Frank: Yeah. We also look alike, apparently, when we grow our beards out.

Ridghaus: That's right.

Derek Frank: We've been told that.

Haley Radke: Okay.

Ridghaus: I think those people are high, but…

Derek Frank: It was in Denver.

Ridghaus: It was in Denver. And by high, I mean altitude.

Derek Frank: Yeah, clearly.

Ridghaus: They were suffering from altitude sickness.

Haley Radke: Right, right.

Ridghaus: Delusional. Derek Frank: Yeah.

Haley Radke: Okay. Well, let's move on and talk about some things we're going to recommend.

So like I said, I want to recommend that everyone goes and watches your projects and they can find them on facebook.com/6wamproject. And the links to the videos are there.

What do you guys want to recommend today?

Derek Frank: I'd recommend David Quint's film, Father Unknown.

Ridghaus: Yeah.

Derek Frank: I think that's an excellent—it's a great film. I mean, it was definitely moving.

Haley Radke: Yeah. Can you tell us a little bit about it? I've never seen it.

Derek Frank: David's father, Urban— David's a filmmaker. His father, Urban grew up in an orphanage in Switzerland. And when David was 35, he and his father go back to Switzerland and David starts recording that trip on his iPhone. And pretty soon into the trip, David realizes that, Oh my God, my father's having— This is an experience that we're both having, and it's super meaningful.

And so what ends up happening on that trip, is Urban sort of rediscovers part of his life that he had sort of locked away and compartmentalized. And I think in the process, David and Urban rekindle a relationship that had probably either never existed, or had gone dormant for a long time.

It's not just about Urban finding out about birth family and stuff, it's about David and Urban reconnecting. And it's a really beautiful movie. And it took a lot, I think… There's a lot of honesty in it and there's a lot of sort of rawness to it. But David's also a really careful filmmaker, and he spent a lot of time crafting the story around the iPhone footage that he had.

So there's some beautiful animation to really set up the story, and he was really thoughtful about how to make Urban's experience meaningful to an audience who doesn't know Urban, and doesn't know David. And I think that that's the mark of a really good storyteller. So I'd highly recommend seeing that film.

Ridghaus: Yeah, David has a great producer on that: Kti. She's really into the story. And so they've— Like Derek said, they've really crafted this beautiful tale, where Urban finds his father and David finds his father, you know? So it's a domino thing.

Derek Frank: I didn't want to give away what happens. Spoiler alert.
Ridghaus: It says, Father Unknown.

Derek Frank: No, that's true. I know. I know. I'm just saying.

Ridghaus: But then if you look at the ink…

Derek Frank: Why don't you just go say it out?

Ridghaus: The ink says, “known.”

Derek Frank: I know. I know.

Ridghaus: So if you're not paying attention to the graphic elements, then maybe it's a spoiler.

Derek Frank: Yeah. Okay.

Ridghaus: People knew that Titanic was going down, and it was still like the best selling movie of, you know…

Derek Frank: No, no, that's true. That's true. That's true. I'm just saying I was trying. I was doing my best.

Haley Radke: And I will link to that in the show notes. Oh my gosh. You guys are…

Derek Frank: Nobody cares. Gotta be careful.

Haley Radke: So thoughtful, Derek. Oh, that's wonderful.

Derek Frank: That's all. That's all I'm looking for. That's great.

Ridghaus: Okay. Yeah. So, I'll go ahead and spoil Six Word Adoption Memoirs, too: they all get adopted.

Haley Radke: Oh, yeah. Wait. And do all the Six Word Adoptions—are they all just six words, or like how loose are you on that?

Ridghaus: Oh no, we're pretty strict on this subject.

Derek Frank: There's no wiggle room there.

Haley Radke: Okay. Okay. That is wonderful. I'll link to that in the show notes. What is your next recommendation?

Ridghaus: I think it would be criminal to not mention April Dinwoodie's efforts over the last few years, between AdoptMent and her podcast series, the articles that she's been writing for HuffPost and Medium. April is really—

She's working at that social consciousness, and she's just such an incredible force in sharing and shaping the future of adoption and adoption reform. So, Born in June, Raised in April, just… And she has her new website up.

Haley Radke: I just saw it on Facebook. She posted a link to it. Yeah, it looks awesome.

Derek Frank: I second the idea that April is kind of a force and I love her recent conversation with Sheila Jaffe, who's, I guess a friend of hers and also a casting director in New York. The deep dive into adoption stories is pretty great. You know, like we get to do 20 minutes, and she gets to do like an hour (the way that you do, as well). So yeah, they're kind of fun to listen to.

Haley Radke: Wonderful. Yeah. I do love her, her show as well.

Derek Frank: I just realized we were talking for an hour, too.So I was like, Oh, I guess that's not so strange.

Haley Radke: [laughs] Well, her first year of podcasts are quite short and now it seems that she switched to an interview format. So I'm excited to see where she goes next with that.

Derek Frank: That's right. That's right. They were shorter. That's right. Good thing someone's paying attention.

Haley Radke: Well, she kind of did reflections based on the— maybe if there was a special event in a certain month, or a season change. And it was kind of commentary on that, in conjunction with the theme of adoption. So, yeah, really powerful.

All right, you guys, you're going to get one more. What's your last recommendation?

Derek Frank: Oh, we got one more.

Ridghaus: Well, I think I would be remiss if I didn't mention Anne Heffron. Anne is writing. Anne is using the creative nonfiction genre in exceptional ways. She's vulnerable, she's open, funny, engaging. And, so for those of you that are interested in creative nonfiction, I don't know if anybody right now is doing it better than Anne Heffron.

Haley Radke: And you can find that anneheffron.com. And of course, everyone has heard about her book on this podcast before, since I plug it every every show, pretty much.

Derek Frank: Have you plugged Dear Adoption (the website) yet?

Haley Radke: I have. Would you like to talk about Dear Adoption?

Derek Frank: Only that I love it. And I think Reshma is doing great work there curating that. Yeah. I find it endlessly, sort of moving. It's not much different from what the Six Word Adoption Memoir is, right?

It's like you give— Writing letters to adoption. So the Dear Adoption idea, it gives people a format, sort of like a nonfiction format, which is great. You know? That framework, I think, is powerful.

Haley Radke: Absolutely. And I love that she makes space for everyone's voice, everyone's opinion. You can be anonymous or not. It's very safe. And what I've found especially moving are some of the letters she's had written in from young people.

Derek Frank: Hmm. Yeah, I agree. I feel like— Sometimes I read those, and I want to feel like we could make a video. So like, you know, an “It gets better” video series. But I can't. I'm not necessarily in a position where I feel like I can say that. It's like, “Nah, it's still kind of complicated and hard and weird.”

Haley Radke: I was like, Does it?

Derek Frank: Well, it's still kind of what it is. Uh… [laughs]

Haley Radke: Oh, well, I love both Anne and Reshma so much. They are dear friends, so I'm delighted that you guys love them, too.

Thank you so much for the excellent conversation. It's been a delight chatting with you both. You made me laugh quite a bit, so that was really fun.

And so people can best connect with you online through your Facebook page. Is that right?

Ridghaus: Yep. That's what we prefer. You know, and if you do happen to catch us at a conference, buy us a beer. It gets funnier, the more beers that we get into.

Derek Frank: [laughs] And then it just gets sadder.

Haley Radke: Oh no… Well, if I would have known that I would have shipped you one before we talked.

Ridghaus: Ohhh…. What a missed opportunity.

Derek Frank: Well, if it makes you feel any better, I had one before we talked.

Ridghaus: I didn't. I didn't have a beer.

Derek Frank: Well, you were in the flow, anyway.

Ridghaus: Okay… It's just because of you, man. Like, you just— Your whole vibe, it just invites me in.

Derek Frank: You make me drunk.

Ridghaus: I'm just surfing on the Derek Vibe.

Derek Frank: Oh, that's— I don't know how I feel about that.

Ridghaus: It's magical, man. It's magical.

Haley Radke; Well, what a wonderful way to wrap up. Oh, thank you both so much for sharing.

Ridghaus: Well, Haley, when we got to interview a couple of weeks ago and then, yeah, and then follow up today. It's been great. I'm excited to hear these. And I hate hearing my own voice, but I will listen.

Derek Frank: Yeah. No, great talking with you, too.

Haley Radke: Ridghaus and Derek wanted me to tell you they have some opportunities coming up to connect with you in person. Go on over to their Facebook page and there will be details about all of those upcoming events.

I wanna say a huge thank you to my Patreon supporters. You are literally making it possible for me to keep producing this podcast for you. I have a secret adoptee-only Facebook group, and some other rewards (depending on the level of monthly support you sign up for). If you would like to stand with me and ensure adoptee voices are shared, head over to adopteeson.com/partner, and you can check out the options for support there.

Friends, I have fallen in love with podcasting. It is my absolute favorite. And if you get to know any podcasters, at all, you'll find that some of us get addicted and we start itching to do new shows. I want to let you in on a secret. I have been working on a second podcast and I will be letting you in on more details soon, but first I'm going to be heading over to Patreon and sharing the news there with my supporters. And they're also going to get sneak preview access before I launch. So click through in the show notes to adopteeson.com/partner. And if you sign up to partner with me, then you will be one of the first to hear that new show.

Would you please tell just one friend about the episode today? I know you know someone who's adopted and maybe they've had some mixed feelings about reaching out to their family of origin. Perhaps hearing Derek's story and his concerns about finding his mother may help your friend know that they're not alone.

Make sure you're subscribed to the show in your favorite podcatcher, like Apple Podcasts, Google Play, Stitcher, iHeart. And you guys are going to get next week's episode delivered automatically. Thanks for listening. Let's talk again, next Friday.

Derek Frank: How's this sound, everybody?

Haley Radke: Oh…

Ridghaus: Better.

Haley Radke: So much better.

Derek Frank: Really? Oh, wow. Look at that. All right.

Haley Radke: You genuinely sounded like your head was in a potato sack. Like…

Ridghaus: Well…

Derek Frank: That's how I like it.

Ridghaus: That's just kind of Derek's every day.

Derek Frank: Yeah. It also might be due to the fact that I definitely washed my jeans with my headphones in my pocket. [everyone laughs] So, it had something to do with it.

Transcripts

41 Derek - Reunion Brings Ghosts to Life

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Adoptees On