13 Finale
/Transcript
Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/13
Haley Radke: You're listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. This is Season One, episode 13, Finale. I'm your host Haley Radke. It's our season finale, and I have invited a special guest to help me wrap up season one.
We chat about some themes we've seen throughout the interviews. I give you a peek behind the scenes, we talk about plans for season two, and I share an in-depth view of my first reunion. That starts around the 28-minute mark if you'd like to skip the chit-chat. We'll wrap up with some recommended resources for you.
I am so pleased to welcome back to the show, Carrie Cahill Mulligan, my very first guest on episode one, and now you're back.
Carrie Cahill Mulligan: Oh, yay, Haley. I'm so delighted to be here. And how strange and wonderful to be at the end of season one.
Haley Radke: Oh, don't tell people. I want to pretend like it's not ending.
Carrie Cahill Mulligan: Oh, really? Okay. But aren't we going to talk about how this season went? Won't they notice?
Haley Radke: Yeah, they'll notice. I'm sad. I don't want it to be the season finale, but it just is.
Carrie Cahill Mulligan: It just is. You know, it's hard to let go for us.
Haley Radke: Yes, adoptee problems, so….
Carrie Cahill Mulligan: I want to take the reins just a little bit, even though this is so faux pas of me, but I've been really hoping the whole time that we would get to hear your story. So, I know we've got other things to talk about, but I just want to let people know we're going to hear a little bit more about your story.
Haley Radke: Aw, that's so sweet. I'm very nervous about sharing it and, how do I say this, I kind of feel hypocritical because I ask super-duper personal questions and just have no qualms about it. And now I'm like, ooh, yeah. So we will get to that.
First, I wanted to just chat with you a little bit about season one, so far 12 episodes. And I don't even know how to thank you and all of the guests that I've had opening up your hearts to us. I'm going to cry just thinking about it.
Carrie Cahill Mulligan: I have to say, Haley, it has been such a gift and a blessing to have the platform. I imagine really it only could have been another adoptee like yourself.
I am not a Christian and religious in the way that you are, but I believe some things are meant to be. And I think you were born to do this show, so thank you for taking it up. It is not easy to hear the stories either. So you've been at ground zero, listening, asking the deep questions and witnessing the hard answers that you get. So thank you for making the space.
Haley Radke: Thank you. I keep answering those kinds of comments on social media with “It's my absolute honor” and that is the truth. I have enjoyed every moment, but it has been very difficult for me and that's why we're going to end the season now, so that I can come back and do season two refreshed.
Carrie Cahill Mulligan: Well, I think a dozen was your initial plan, right? You had never had a podcast before. This was your first crack. You're not suddenly just breaking off, right?
Haley Radke: No. But midway through I was like, oh, this is great. I can just keep going. And I was like, ooh, yeah...no.
Carrie Cahill Mulligan: I have to say, not being at ground zero but just being keenly interested to hear each story, I started the season really excited to hear them, each episode, and quickly realized how much I was resonating with the difficult parts of these difficult stories. And over time I realized, oh, it's hard. Healing is hard.
It's important to hear the stories, but man, I was not thinking I was going through reunion stuff and I was just going to tell you my story. And then suddenly listening to more and more stories and hearing similarities and differences. Man!
Haley Radke: After our interviews a lot of you had lots of big feelings come up and some big life stuff. We really have opened ourselves up to some more opportunities for healing.
Carrie Cahill Mulligan: For healing, yeah. I shared earlier with you before we started that for the past 48 hours I have been listening to the episodes back-to-back to refresh myself. And I was really curious about similarities and differences. If you don't mind, I'd love to quickly share a couple of those that struck me.
Haley Radke: For sure. Let me start with one thing, I think every single one of you said the word “surreal” about reunion or seeing photos of bio family members. Surreal. Every single one. It was just so weird.
Carrie Cahill Mulligan: Surreal, and the focus on the likenesses and wanting to see your place in a genetic tribe.
Haley Radke: Yeah, the genetic mirroring, for sure. Okay, I'm totally interested. I can't believe you binged it all.
Carrie Cahill Mulligan: It wasn't easy, but really it was fascinating. I wish I'd taken notes. The next thing that really stuck out to me was the intensity with which a majority of people are concerned about so many other people's feelings as a total given. That the adoptee juggles the adoptive parents' feelings and the biological parents' feelings and the siblings’ feelings, and the as yet unmet siblings’ feelings.
And something that I've been working on in therapy is that, really, I'm not responsible for anyone else's feelings, but it was such a common given that we all seem to do that.
Haley Radke: I'm remembering Liz Story saying it the most strongly. It stuck in my mind. And she just said: “We just are responsible; we just are.”
Carrie Cahill Mulligan: Right, but we’re not though.
Haley Radke: Yeah, I know.
Carrie Cahill Mulligan: But you are. You feel it.
Haley Radke: You absolutely feel it.
Carrie Cahill Mulligan: It's so deep and so fundamental that we don't even question it. But then hearing it all around, each of us saying it, it was like, wow.
Haley Radke: My parents still don't know about this show. How about that?
Carrie Cahill Mulligan: Wow. And you went through all those family things?
Haley Radke: So, I'm thinking my parents may find out at some point. I don't know. I'm just too nervous to tell them. Honestly, I just don't know.
Carrie Cahill Mulligan: What is the root of the nerves? Is it the fear of disapproval and rejection? Is it fear of hurting them? Is it a combination?
Haley Radke: It's always fear of hurting them. I've only said one thing about them this whole show and I almost took it out. It was when I was talking with Maeve and we were comparing notes on how our adoptive parents say, “Oh, you are so much like so and so in my family.” And you're like, what? But we're not related. That's impossible.
Carrie Cahill Mulligan: That was one of the things I was going to mention between shows, that whole genetic fascination and family. And I do remember you talking about your parents, how brave you were, but I didn't realize they hadn't been listening.
Haley Radke: Yeah, that's the only thing I've mentioned. And I've tried to be super cautious. I don't want to censor myself too much.
Carrie Cahill Mulligan: No, but it's fascinating how much we juggle that. It has felt like a bit of a weakness in my own growth. And then I just realized, oh my gosh, we all have it. It's not a personal failing, it's a situational outcome.
How many different metaphors talked about compartmentalizing? How many different stories talked about the rejection in the secondary rejection? Or the shame feelings just being something you put away and deal with?
So, I don't blame you. This is not an easy thing to be doing. That reminds me of one of the other similarities I noticed in a lot of the interviews, and that was the desire not to pressure the mother for any more information, like with the desire to know about the father.
But who was it who waited eight years and never even asked?
Haley Radke: I think that was Liz Story.
Carrie Cahill Mulligan: Yeah! To never even ask, to be that patient, but she just couldn't risk upsetting her mother, to lose that connection, which I totally get. But, wow. That was definitely a thread among a lot of interviews.
Haley Radke: Yes. And I think the most common way they spoke about it was: I don't want to scare her off.
Carrie Cahill Mulligan: Yes. I don't want to pressure her. I don't want her to think I'm too crazy. I don't want anything more than just to hear her voice and see someone who looks like me. One thing that I found was definitely maybe half and half in the group, or maybe even I was in a minority, but the difference between people who wanted to search early and obsessed sort of early on, thinking and wondering and needing to know early versus not feeling a super need to search. Davis didn’t until later.I didn’t feel the need until later.
For me, it was because I had a story on paper, it wasn't entirely true, but I've been wondering if at least having a narrative that included a why (They were not married. They thought long and hard about it. They agreed on it). There was an emotional backstory. And that gave me something to go on.
And this ties into another thing that I feel a lot of adoptees expressed in season one which is that you just want to fit in. I think it was Maeve talking about her weird adoptee group. They didn't explain. You don't want to be the different one. And I think for some adoptees coming out of the fog, why do you want to go and point out all the things that make you different?
Why do you want to go look at that? And as much as we all are faced with the grateful term, and what a weird label and double-edged sword that is, I think we all had a lot of gratitude anyway in the ambivalence. There was always a lot of gratitude expressed for the people that did at least try and search and found something, even if it didn't turn out well. It was fascinating to me.
Haley Radke: Okay. I have two comments on similarities for the show. Most people, I've noticed, if it's painful for them to be talking about something go to flat affect, right? Monotone. Monotone, very flat affect, and laughter. Oh my goodness. So much awkward laughter. And that's my go-to anyway, so I'm just laughing along with them.
Carrie Cahill Mulligan: and snort-laughing!
Haley Radke: I don't think I've done that yet. But I totally laugh all the time. I've heard from some of the guests that they can't believe they laugh so much talking about all these painful things. We're just trying to protect ourselves, right? It's just kind of that defense mechanism.
Now, and my last thing is I have found out what my verbal tics are and what my guests’ verbal tics are. I wish I had been collecting a big long blooper reel of “ums” and “you know.” So mine, you gotta guess what mine is. What do I say all the time?
Carrie Cahill Mulligan: Oh, I feel on the spot. I don't know.
Haley Radke: I say “wonderful.” And I say “absolutely.” And I need a thesaurus page of words taped up, or something.
Carrie Cahill Mulligan: I have to tell you, I have some childhood girlfriends, a couple other adoptee friends, and a couple adult friends who have been trying to understand where I'm coming from better.
And one of those I play hockey with, and so we were talking today about you and I talking tonight, and she said, oh, and that interviewer, she's just so sweet and just empathetic. And, anyway, whatever your ticks are, I don't notice them because I just feel so loved and heard when I talk to you.
Haley Radke: Oh, that is so sweet. I have heard some super embarrassing comments and I don't want to say them all because I'll be too embarrassed and humble. But I've heard honey- voiced and I laughed the most at that because that was one of the very first comments about my voice I heard. And I don't recall who I was talking about it with, but I was like, oh my goodness, people still call my house and ask if my mother is home. So I'm glad that it suited me now to host a podcast. But for my life, I've sounded like a child. Yeah, that's the one that sticks out in my mind. But I've heard a lot of “sweet Canadian,” that kind of thing.
Carrie Cahill Mulligan: Are there any other similarities or not commonalities, things you might have thought would be more common that weren't in season one? Was there anything that surprised you?
Haley Radke: I was surprised by how people just poured out their stories. Now, I'm sure everyone knows I edit these interviews, obviously. I cut them down for those verbal tics. And questions that fall flat or my bad questions; I get rid of those. But most people just told their story, almost without prompting. And what I've credited that to is we don't share our stories.
And this might've been, for some I know it was, the very first time they told their whole story. How else can I feel but completely honored to be the first one to hear it. And so I guard them so closely and I edit so they can be honored by sharing with us. I didn't realize people were gonna tell me all this stuff, Carrie!
I knew some of you from Twitter. Landric was a listener who emailed me and then came on. And then Davis. This is cool because Maeve, in her episode, recommended his essay, “Am I Blood or am I Water?” So when her episode went out, she contacted Davis and said, oh, I just want to let you know I mentioned you. And then Davis reached out to me and said, oh, this is so great, I'm really loving the podcast. I said, oh, do you want to come on? He responded with, sure!
Carrie Cahill Mulligan: Oh, so cool.
Haley Radke: Yeah, so that's been all really cool. But people are hearing us and, you know, they might think we're best friends or something, but we've only talked on the podcast. We tweet each other, but we've never met or anything.
Carrie Cahill Mulligan: No, but I have to say, I'm gonna go back to saying it, that the sympathetic ear that does not correct or judge in all the ways that we're used to our stories having to fit in with the dominant narrative, that it is the first time, unless you've stolen a chance at an adoptee group. I got to meet Rebecca Hawk a couple three years ago in the fall, and that was my first adoptee conversation in my whole life.
So talking with you these couple times, that's really it. I've shared with my women's group. But you get a lot of “I just don't get it. How come you can't just be happy?” You know? But very sincere. Like, how can this be bad if you were loved and raised in a loving family?
Like, how's that bad? They didn't want you? Oh God. So how do you continue your story in that environment? You know, this show is a wonderful space where there aren't any triggering questions.
Haley Radke: I try my very hardest to just listen, and I definitely do cut out giant awkward pauses because if I just listen two or three more seconds, they start again into something deeper. And yeah, that's been very cool.
Carrie Cahill Mulligan: I think that's super smart, and I loved the technique you've had of just asking people at the end if there's anything else. Because sometimes they say, how did we not get to that point yet? That's really cool.
Haley Radke: Oh yes. And like super truth bombs come out there.
Carrie Cahill Mulligan: Yeah. And we've just had an hour of really cool deep stuff and then, oh yeah, by the way, here's this: boom!
Haley Radke: And I've thought about those things for days and days after.
Carrie Cahill Mulligan: Again, I am super excited that after some time to process and settle down and filter through and do some growing and thinking on season one that you are up for tackling season two.
Haley Radke: Okay, well, let's just talk about it right now.
Carrie Cahill Mulligan: Do you have ideas?
Haley Radke: Well, I definitely want to keep doing interviews with new adoptees who haven't had a voice before. That's sort of my primary goal, but I have asked a few of our first-season guests if they would like to come back and do updates.
So we are going to have a few updates. Some situations have changed dramatically from their first episode and so they're willing to share what's been going on. A few of you who've agreed to come back. Of course everyone's welcome to if they would like. But no pressure. I also want to keep the Recommended Resources because I think that's been very valuable.
And here's my note about that. I've had a couple emails from people. Listen, I love you all, listeners, and it's super sweet that you email. It's awesome, okay, but I've had a couple emails from listeners who are like, but I know all these resources already. Can you just find some new ones? So thank you for that.
But I've had a lot of people say, wow, I've never heard of any of these things! And I think, how did you find me? So, I definitely want to keep Recommended Resources because I think it's very, very helpful. But I do want to bring on a couple new segments.
One of them we're going to try out today. How about that? We are going to have an “Ask an Adoptee” kind of segment. So that's what we're going to try out tonight, Carrie. We'll see how that goes. So we're the crowd-sourced wisdom. It's the advice column, adoptee advice column.
And I have been searching for adoptees who are therapists or psychologists or counselors, and I'm working on that so we can have a segment where we can have some practical healing tools straight from someone who's a trained expert but also an adoptee. So I have some leads on that, and I'm hopeful that will be available for season two.
Carrie Cahill Mulligan: I love it. Fingers crossed.
Haley Radke: So you can be my guinea pig and let's try out “Ask an Adoptee” with Carrie.
Carrie Cahill Mulligan: Can we have a little music?
Haley Radke: I know, I have to find a transition.
Carrie Cahill Mulligan: No, it's okay. I like it.
Haley Radke: So I had someone message me privately on Facebook, and this person is a first parent. Here is the question:
“If there was something you could have gotten from your birth parents as a young teen, what would it be? Is there anything I can do now for them to lessen their trauma? I tell them any chance that I can that I love them and that they are one of the best things that ever happened to me, that my whole extended family can't wait for the day they can be a part of our gang. And then, I'm so sorry for relinquishing. How much I wish I could go back and change it. Is there anything I'm missing? What would've helped you when you were a young teen?”
Carrie Cahill Mulligan: It sounds like from the letter that the first parent is reaching out and really trying to soften the impact of that traumatic wound being acted out in the teen years, which are going to be hard anyway. And my gut feeling, just based on me being from a closed adoption and not wanting to be different, is I'm not sure I'd want to hear any more about it. I just wonder if it's so sincere and so heartfelt that this first parent wants to share love and be welcoming. But it feels almost too much in a way that it feels like pressure for this teen to let the parent know: It's okay, I get it. The yearning in this first parent's letter is so clear to me. My little triggers that worry about how everyone's feeling felt very pressured. I get where she's coming from, but I still feel the pressure.
Haley Radke: That's so wise, Carrie, because that's how I felt when I received it. Oh my gosh, I have to give a perfect answer because I can fix the situation. And we can't give you the perfect answer. It sounds like you're already doing everything you can and easing up a little, I think, is the sense that we're kind of getting. Maybe ease up a little bit.
Carrie Cahill Mulligan: Especially if they're a teen, I wouldn't even make a show of easing up. You know, just psychically, drawing your heart back a little. And just knowing that those wounds are in place. There's no lessening of them.
Haley Radke: This first parent likely has told their relinquished child already that they love them, they're here for them. We're all ready to welcome you. That child will remember those things. So you don't necessarily need to say it every time.
If my dad told me something like that, I would remember it forever and hold onto it and it's there, imprinted forever. All of those good seeds that you've been sowing in your child about how much you love them, they're there. Just a light sprinkling of water every once in a while is probably good.
Carrie Cahill Mulligan: Yes. And lots of space because I think one of the things we heard in a lot of interviews so far was just how there wasn't space for unpleasant feelings or reactions about the adoption experience for the adoptee. There just wasn't room for that.
Several different people mentioned that the parent had said, well, it doesn't matter to me and then didn't give room for the adoptee to have their feelings. So just having that space to know that they can feel however they want about it, and that you're not just waiting it out until they're happy, you know? You're loving them just as they are where they're at. And that's okay too.
You know, the other advice that popped into my mind was Mary Anna King talking about how her mom would write just the quickest little thing: “Just got home from work, thinking of you, love Mom.”
Haley Radke: Yes, and she saved those all those years.
Carrie Cahill Mulligan: Yeah, it wasn't a big production, but it was just a constant stitching together, I think, keeping the presence alive.
Haley Radke: That's a great thought. Remembering that having those little tokens, it is something physical, too, to come back to. Very good.
So I guess, Carrie, it's your turn to ask me the question.
Carrie Cahill Mulligan: I just want to say, I am so excited to have on the show today our host, Haley Radke, who's a fellow adoptee. Welcome, Haley!
Haley Radke: Thank you. I'm so pleased to be here.
Carrie Cahill Mulligan: I am too. It has been fun to hear little bits of your story, but I am hoping, if you're up for it, that you will give it to us as one whole story and not just as a little aside.
So, whatever you're up for, tell us about your adoption story.
Haley Radke: Okay, so I was born in 1983 in Edmonton, Alberta, which is where I live now. And I was relinquished immediately at birth and adopted 11 days later. My adoptive parents were elementary school teachers and they were infertile and they had been married for 13 years when they adopted me. My dad was 40 and my mom was 38, and they'd waited seven years to adopt me. They started their teaching career in Northern Alberta, and when I say northern, it's just a couple hours from the Northwest Territories border, a northern rural town. In fact, our town, to get to it you could either go in the summer, there's a ferry to cross the river. And in the winter you could cross an ice bridge.
Ice bridge. Yeah, I said ice bridge. Or it would add another hour and a half to the drive to the town if that was out. So because it was so remote, they actually moved down to Central Alberta so that they could have social workers come and do the home studies and all of the things that adoptive parents are required to do before they're eligible to adopt.
So you could say they were very serious about adopting and desperately wanted a child. I was relinquished right at birth. I think that was the plan all along for my birth mother. They took me home after 11 days, and when I was three, they moved back up to the remote community that I grew up in and that they had started their careers in.
And then I later on moved back down to Edmonton to go to university. I got my degree in psychology. Big surprise to everyone who's listening, I'm sure. I have my BA in psychology and then a double minor. I minored in sociology and religion and theology. Yeah, that's where I met my husband and that's where we live now.
Anyway, what I've had during my growing-up years was very sparse bits and pieces of information. I knew that my birth mother was young, and so I always imagined that, you know, she was a teenager and whatever went along with that. I guess, I didn't truly know any specific details until I was 18 and I requested my non-identifying information, which had her age. She was 15 and my birth father was 17. Yeah, very young. And so she chose to relinquish and that's kind of all I had in the non-identifying information. I have it here, so you'll hear some pages rustling if I grab it. I had a little bit of medical history and a couple personal details.
Yeah, that's when I found out that I had 11 days where I was in the hospital. When I found that out, I started wondering, oh my goodness, I was alone for 11 days, essentially. And that's always been a really hard thing to think about. Especially now that I have kids, it's very hard to picture a child being alone in hospital.
Carrie Cahill Mulligan: I didn't share in my story the first time, but I have that history as well. I think I was 10 days in the hospital before being placed in a foster family for two weeks and then placed with my adopted family and learning that bit of my history was so saddening.
Haley Radke: Yeah, that image is not a happy one.
So in my non-identifying information, I got some pieces of information about my birth mother that finally made her real, and I just want to read a couple of them to you: She's shy. Doesn't like crowds, is considerate, reliable, and dependable. She enjoys reading. That was one I just grasped onto. Oh my goodness! She's just like me.
And then there's some information about my dad, which later on when he read this, there's some things that aren't true. So again, I had this and, of course, assumed everything was correct, but it wasn't. I had a preconceived notion about my birth dad because of this non-identifying information, and that was a lie for all those years.
So, you know, you see these official forms and you just assume everything is accurate, but that's not the case. So yeah, that's when I was 18 and later in 2004 the Alberta government opened the records and I didn't know that until 2005.
And so that's when I requested my official records and I got my records. They have my birth mother's full name, her birthdate, the address that she was living at when she relinquished. And I have my letter that I wrote to that address.
Carrie Cahill Mulligan: Wow.
Haley Radke: So, sorry, the sound is going to be super bad today because I have all these papers, but I'll just read this one little section here:
“Recently, the adoption records have become open and I requested the release of my adoption information. In this information, I found the name of my birth mother, et cetera. Also in this information was the home address of et cetera. I checked the phone book and was amazed as I saw there was still someone by the same last name at this very address and phone number.”
So I read this tonight and I laughed so hard because I don't have a phone book anymore. But in 2005 I had a phone book and I wrote this letter and I think I was very hopeful. I can read it to you, if you'd like.
Carrie Cahill Mulligan: Sure, please. How long do you think it took you to craft this letter? How long did you work on it? Was it easy to write or did you labor over it?
Haley Radke: I don't remember. My guess is that I labored over it because when I used to blog, it took me a while to find the perfect phrase for things. And so I'm sure I did. I guess I'm thinking that because of Maeve's story and Liz Prato’s and their thoughts about crafting these perfectly worded documents to not scare off.
And you'll see that. You'll see that when I read this. So I'm just going to say “Smith” for the last name.
“Dear Smith family, I'm not sure what it would be like to receive this letter. It's actually kind of surreal for me to be sitting here and writing it.”
Okay, how funny is that? It's surreal, right? I know. See, I'm laughing inside. I'm crying. It's hard. Bringing out these things is hard, but anyway, “It's actually kind of surreal for me to be sitting here and writing it and just know that I'm not writing to disrupt lives or your family. I have purely loving intentions of finding my other family.”
“My name is Haley and I'm now 22 years old. My first given name was Ashley Amber Smith, and I was born on August 22, 1983, at the Royal Alexandra Hospital in Edmonton and subsequently adopted by loving parents.”
And then I go into the records are open, et cetera. I was hoping that I could somehow be connected with (and then I say her name) and I give my mailing address and my email address.
“I would like to have first contact through a letter or email. Then if we both have the desire to talk on the phone or in person, the other contact information could be shared. I don't want to put any pressure on either party, and I feel like an initial phone contact might be too much too soon. If your family decides that you do not want to connect with me at this time, I would still really appreciate an email or letter stating this, so I would not be left apprehensively waiting for too long.”
“Also, if I have the wrong address or the wrong family, please let me know this too. Thank you for responding to my request. I'm eager to hear from you. Sincerely yours, Haley Radke.”
So, yeah, I was 22 and I was just doing my very best not to scare and not to put too much weight on it. I mean, I can read that, you know, in here.
Carrie Cahill Mulligan: So, yeah, you feel so much with that letter, just the caution and the “I am a completely normal, non-threatening person. You have no reason to fear me.”
Haley Radke: I am not gonna murder you or to ask for money. I don't know why that is. Why there's some mythology about adoptees just wanting to reunite for money. Or if we're just kind of making that up in our heads. I don't know.
Carrie Cahill Mulligan: Maybe it's the self-projected fear. I don't know. I think it is there though.
Haley Radke: Who knows? So I sent that letter and I remember sitting at my desk. I used to work at a youth emergency shelter here in the city. At the time I was just part-time and, yeah, I was at my desk and my desk was right outside the executive director's office and she was so sweet. She was adopted as well, and we had talked about it sometimes. I don't remember if I had told her that I was searching or not. Probably it must have come up, anyway, so she's working at her desk and mine was right outside her office, and I got an email from my maternal grandfather. At work. I have that for you too:
“Dear Haley, we got your letter this morning but have not had the opportunity yet to speak to your birth mom in person. She's married, lives in Edmonton and will be visiting us here on Saturday. We decided not to discuss your letter with her by phone for obvious reasons. Your grandmother and I both hope her instinct will be the same as ours, but we can't speak for her. Hope you don't think it's presumptuous of us after all this time to refer to ourselves as your grandparents. I also won't preempt her with the details of her, your family, because I hope she will do so herself very soon. In the unhappy event that she decides not to meet you, I hope you'll keep that option open for us.
And then he signs his name and in parentheses, has granddad. Then “PS, I was told not to email you until after we spoke to her, but think I've stayed in the background about 22 years too long.”
Carrie Cahill Mulligan: Oh, wow. What was going through your mind when you got that email from him?
Haley Radke: It's all I ever wanted. It's perfect. And you know that last line? “Stayed in the background 22 years too long.” And what that meant to me. You read so many things into that, right, and what I read into that was he maybe wanted to keep me, he didn't have a part in the decision. I read hopeful things into that.
So I was celebrating and I remember asking Deb, come read this! Oh my gosh, I just freaked out, you know? It was wonderful. And then I waited. But I think this email may have come very fast. I don't recall exactly if it was the day after I mailed my letter or two days. It was that fast. It was like, bam. Canada Post was on the ball delivering that letter, I'm sure.
So that's September 15th, and the next email I get again is from him and it's September 18th. It's from my grandfather again. The subject is Delays, delays. And so in it, he kind of outlines why they haven't told her yet and some of those circumstances, but then he gives me a family history.
It's a couple pages long. He sends me photos and some pictures of even his parents. There's this big section about family history. And so, again, every word I just, you know, hung on to. And then in the end of it, he says:
“Needless to say, keep this lot under your hat. I grudgingly grunted assent to the principle of keeping my nose out of things until she (my birth mother) started the ball rolling. I, however, am the impulsive, impatient one, while my wife lets the world unroll as it is intended to. Needless to say, we are both agreed in principle to engineer a soft landing for her in hope that we don't panic her. I am firmly of the belief that your surfacing is the best thing that has happened to this family. I look forward to meeting you and to introducing you, and I don't want to screw up either you or the opportunity.”
These are all so beautiful words that I just held onto. It was perfect, right? It was just perfect.
Carrie Cahill Mulligan: It's so sweet how he thinks he needs to stay out of the way, but he can't hold himself back. He's so excited in these letters.
Haley Radke: And I just want to be wanted. I still want that, right?
Carrie Cahill Mulligan: Of course.
Haley Radke: Okay, so that was the 18th and so this is the very next day. So this is when I get my first email from my birth mother:
“Dear Haley, I received your letter today and it has brought me great joy. Thank you. You can't imagine how happy and relieved I am to know that you are happy, healthy, and well. I have always wanted to know you. Rather than disrupt my family, you have brought me and my family great joy. This without even meeting you. I am here for you in any capacity you may wish. That is I welcome contact on your terms. Any terms. I'm excited to see you if and when you are ready. I am completely open to you. Ask me any questions you have.”
Then she gives her phone number and her address. And here's why I mentioned before my degree, her minor is sociology as well, and then she wraps up with:
“Please forgive me if I write stiltingly. I'm overwhelmed and so very, very happy. Your letter is so beautifully written. Your kindness and maturity shines through every word. I'm so very proud. Best wishes.” And then she signs her name.
I'm reading this to you and I'm tearing up.
Carrie Cahill Mulligan: She hits every button without belaboring anything. It's whatever you need, any terms, I'm here. Couldn't ask for more!
Haley Radke: Yes. And so, I picture the perfect reunion. In this time, I'm still finishing up my degree so I'm in university. I'm already married. Because I'm taking psychology, I am researching everything academic I can get my hands on about adoption reunion. And there was not very much available at that time.
There's a lot more now, but still it's not great. When I look for academic articles, it's not great. Anyway, I remember reading that a lot of reunions fail. We struggled with this, I think, Carrie, in our first interview, getting those exact percentages right. I still don't know, sorry.
But there's a lot of reunions that fail and I remember reading these things and I'm like, oh gosh, but it can't be our reunion because, look, they want me, they want to get to know me. So we're gonna be okay. I thought that from the beginning: It's all going to be fine.
So I had four months with her.
I remember our first meeting was very soon after this email. It could have been like the next day. It was very fast. She lives in my city. Nick drove me there. My husband Nick and I met her and her husband.
I remember her opening the door, and she's very petite, actually, like my adoptive mom. I'm 5’9”. I'm definitely heavy and I've always been very sturdy. So that part I was like, oh, okay. So physically we're not the same, but we have the same color hair.
I was desperately looking for similar facial features and things, but I don't know if I could really point those out to you now. I have more similarities with one of my bio half-sisters on my dad's side. So that's kind of where I see the physical similarities now.
I brought baby pictures for her. I brought a wedding picture for her. I don't remember anything of what we talked about at all. I remember just not knowing what to say. She's super shy. So am I. Well, not so much anymore. I definitely was then. I'm 33 now.
Carrie Cahill Mulligan: Was the conversation stilted or was it just awkward because it's so awkward? Were you both not able to talk?
Haley Radke: I remember it being that she and I were very quiet and didn't know what to say, and I remember her husband trying to be a very good host and asking questions and things. He's more outgoing anyway. I think he's an extrovert. And then, of course, my husband Nick, he is super introverted as well. And I don't know that he would've known what to do.
But yeah, I have a picture with her that we took on that day. She looks like a deer in the headlights. There's no other way to describe it. I'm just going to pick it up here. I look happy. And she looks like she's in shock. And now, you know, knowing what I know, I think she was.
Carrie Cahill Mulligan: You had an initial meeting and then how did contact continue to unfold? Did you continue meeting or calls or emails?
Haley Radke: We emailed back and forth so much. We’re both writers and all of those feelings were more easily expressed in writing. I'm thinking back on all of these things and I feel so responsible for her stopping contact and that's so dumb. But when I'm thinking of these answers for you, I'm trying to be truthful and honest about it, and I think she wanted more contact than I did. I didn't know that at the time, of course.
But looking back, some of her emails say, “I was anxiously waiting for your response.” And one of them was “I got your voicemail late last night, and it's too early to call now. So I'll email.” And so it's definitely in the honeymoon stage, but I guess I don't think I could handle it all. I don't think I could give her enough.
I remember we went shopping one time on Whyte Ave. in Edmonton, which is a trendy street, lots of boutique stores. And I bought a scarf when we were out. It was the one thing I bought, a black scarf, a knitted wintery scarf with a rainbow edge. I haven't worn it for years and I just donated it a couple months ago. And it was very hard to get rid of because I bought it when I was with her and I only have a couple memories of being with her. So you get attached to those items.
That's one time. I remember another time she came over for lunch because it was just her and I. I made chicken fajitas. That's when I showed her the records. There's a portion in my adoption records where she writes out her reason for relinquishing me, and it's in her handwriting and her signature. I showed it to her and she didn't remember. She had blocked that all out. After I showed that to her, and I could see it was kind of upsetting her, I put everything away.
And I told you she was very petite. I weighed 9.4 when I was born, and she started to tell me about that. She said, I have giant stretch marks because of you. I had internal bleeding. It was a traumatic birth. She was saying these things to me, but she wasn't saying them to me. She was just saying them out loud. That's the only time we ever spoke of that. But I feel guilty.
Carrie Cahill Mulligan: It's so not fair. How could you be responsible for that? You're not responsible for that. I was also a nine, almost a 10-pound baby with a petite mother, and I know my delivery was traumatic, forceps delivery. And I have often thought that physical trauma, added to the emotional trauma, made her compartmentalize and close down any chances of trying to revisit that.
I'm sorry. It's such a weight. I'm sorry.
Haley Radke: I still have healing to do in these things and that's a moment I won't forget. You know, and again, I'm saying these things, but she didn't know that saying that was going to imprint on me. That's her experience.
Anyway, Nick and I were invited over to her parents' house for dinner one night, and so we went. She and her husband were there. That was bizarre. It didn't go well, I would say. I'm shy. I don't want to say anything. She's shy, doesn't say anything. My maternal grandmother doesn't say much.
My maternal grandfather, though, he's like this larger-than-life person. I remember him trying to be friendly and welcoming and stuff. They had a very European kind of meal. I was like, oh, I don't know if I like this food. I know, I remember that. I remember there was a salad with cold baby shrimp on it. And I remember not liking that at the time.
Then after supper, I guess when we grew up and we had guests over the chatting would happen after dinner. You know, you have dinner and then you sit and visit. And after dinner my birth mother said, okay, well we have to get back to the house because we're painting our cabinets and our kitchen. And I was like, oh, okay. And so that was it.
Nick and I drove home and I was like, oh my gosh, we drove all across the city for that. It was so short and nobody said anything. And I remember thinking that, I don't know if you'd get the sense of this or not, that I'm a very warm person. I'm touchy feely. I like to hug and be close to people and they're not that way. I remember saying to Nick something like, Who would I be if I had grown up there? You know? Because that was her childhood home. And at that time I was feeling very grateful that I was adopted.
I remember emailing her after that and saying most of those things. Not the part that I wish I was adopted. I didn't say that, but I did express that I was surprised that we left right away and things ended. I was probably more direct than I should have been.
Carrie Cahill Mulligan: It sounds like you were being honest, though, which was you were feeling strong enough to trust her with that.
Haley Radke: I was being very honest. Again, I'm trying to give myself grace here because I'm really hard on myself. I was 22, you know. I was 22. So I was honest. And so that was a little friction there.
And then my grandfather took me out for lunch one day. Actually a few times, I think, he came and we would go across the street. There was a restaurant right across the street from the university I was attending. And we'd visit and stuff, and then when I told my birth mother, she would say, oh, did my mom know that?
And I don't know, that's, you know, between them, like I don't know. And then she'd say, well, I don't think my mom knew that. So there were those kinds of little threads that later I can piece together. But at the time I didn't think anything of it.
We had planned to get together before Christmas. I don't remember if it was a big family dinner thing again, or if it was just her and her husband and me and Nick. But I had exams and stuff and university was busy. And so I remember emailing her and saying, can we do this after Christmas? I think my adoptive parents would've been coming into the city as well for Christmas.
And so she emailed me back. I don't have this one printed out. She said, you've been pretty critical of my family and I don't think we should reschedule right now. Let's just revisit it in the new year. And that's the last thing I ever got from her.
Carrie Cahill Mulligan: Whoa. It must have just felt like such a slap in some ways. I can't imagine, I mean, it's your story, but it doesn't sound like you were being critical. What was she hearing? Must be something that she felt that brought up a ghost of accusation that you represented. You were just 22.
Haley Radke: I was 22. But, like I said, a lot of these communications were over email and tone is really hard on email. She probably took things harder than I intended. Those words about me being critical of her family, I really think that's why I feel such responsibility for it being over.
Carrie Cahill Mulligan: Well, from my perspective as a friend, Haley, it just feels like a smoke screen. It does feel to me like other things, her own issues came up, and she saw you through the lens of those issues.
Haley Radke: There were some other extenuating circumstances which I'll protect. I'm trying to really be respectful of their privacy. I always give her that pass. She was dealing with these things and so I understand it's really hard.
Carrie Cahill Mulligan: Well, the brain understands. The heart has its own logic.
Haley Radke: I knew we were talking about this tonight and I got all these emails out. I hadn't read them for a number of years. And I read the first couple from her, and I just couldn't stop crying because they're all those things that you want to hear.
But now, I read them and I think, these were true in the moment, maybe, but if you really wanted to know me, why did you stop? Since then, I've written her emails, letters. I have had flowers delivered with cards. I've done everything that I think I could do.
A couple years ago I wrote her a series of letters just after coming out of the fog. I wrote to her that now I understand more about birth mothers and now I'm older, and I can, we can, do this better now. And all of the things that I think she would need to hear.
But it's just not enough. Who did I ask? One of the first guests? Maybe it was Maeve?
Carrie Cahill Mulligan: Maeve. It was Maeve. What would it take?
Haley Radke: What would it take? Anything. If she called me right now. I would go if she called me right now. You know, we're recording this and it is the middle of the night where you are. But it is midnight here. And I would call, I would go. That desire for connection is never going to go away,
Carrie Cahill Mulligan: Haley. I'm sorry.
Haley Radke: Woo. I get to be the one with the most tears. You're welcome. Everyone who wanted to use Kleenex.
Carrie Cahill Mulligan: Oh, I've been thinking a lot about all these interviews and how the dominant narrative is the giving of a better life. But what is being measured in the better life? It's usually social standing, you know, the single mother or too young mother. Or it's financial, which Mary Anna talked about in her episode.
The fact that we can be so focused on the value of family and then just treat babies like interchangeable widgets. And that there is no repercussion for changing out this widget and putting it in a different family machine.
Haley Radke: Yes. Yeah, so that's my reunion story. My secondary rejection story. I'm not going to share too much about my reunion with my dad and my siblings and his lovely wife. Because though it's only five years old, it's still very fresh for me. And you could tell by my emotions that that wound is still very close to the surface. So I'll save that for another time.
One of the things I've done on my healing journey is that I'm involved in this healing prayer ministry at my church. At the end of sessions, we often give an opportunity for Jesus to speak into the moment and what does he want to say to me about the situation that we've prayed through.
And so, one of the sessions that I've had, I was forgiving my birth mother for relinquishing me. And anyways, the vision that I had was me in that hospital by myself in the bassinet and I can picture the hospital ward and just me as a baby wrapped up in a blanket and just alone. The nurses kind of hustling around and doing other things.
But then I'm not alone and the vision I have is of Jesus being right next to me. He's the one for those 11 days that called the nurses over whenever I needed attention. And that has been the most healing thing for me whenever I think of those 11 days of being alone and not wanted, knowing that he was there. I was getting what I needed.
I constantly come back to that moment, that vision. It's so beautiful knowing that I wasn't alone. And I know that a lot of you aren't believers and I'm so glad that you're listening and I'm so glad we can hear different points of view. I can't express to you how important knowing that has been because it was so ugly to think about being alone. So I don't have to think that anymore.
Carrie Cahill Mulligan: As just another aside before we wrap up, I had shared that sorrow in my women's group and also individually with my therapist. And she was so sweet. She said, “But I am guessing there was a really special nurse or somebody who found you and loved on you specifically. Because look how good you turned out. Somebody loved on you.”
Just the idea. And for me, because I'm not Christian, my vision turned to some single nurse who knew my story and just couldn't stand to see a lonely, little baby. And I've created a similar replacement comfort person. And it is hugely soothing.
Haley Radke: Yes. Yeah, for sure.
Carrie Cahill Mulligan: Is there anything else that we didn't touch on that you want to share?
Haley Radke: Reunion is hard. It's super hard and it was really wonderful at the start. I rode that roller coaster and it was really scary and I would get back on in one second if I was given the opportunity.
Carrie Cahill Mulligan: Well first, I just want to thank you for being brave and sharing your heart. And it's just hard. I'm sorry. But if for nothing else, for another “me too” story, I also prepared one recommended resource just because I love that part of the show.
Haley Radke: Well, that's great because I do have some resources for people to take them through our little hiatus until season two in the new year.
Carrie Cahill Mulligan: Awesome. The resource I was really psyched to share with you is Jeanette Winterson who has this really wonderful essay on her website called “Adopted…Who am I?” It's three pages, so I won't read the whole thing, but she says:
“Adoption is the changeling child. Your birth mother had no idea what she was giving away. Your adoptive mother has no idea what she's getting. Love is not the problem. Adoption isn't a love problem. It's an identity issue. Who are you? Where are you from? Where do you belong? Every mirror you look into is a magic mirror of a kind because you hope to see a deeper reflection of yourself. You won't look like your new parents or the rest of the family, no matter how much they love you. You are the oddity and the angle. It isn't straightforward to be different from the very beginning, but you are.”
I'm going to read the next paragraph, too, because this is what was reminding me of it. She says:
“Adopted children are self-invented because we have to be; a crucial part of our story is missing and violently like a bomb in the womb. The baby explodes into an unknown world, only knowable through a story of some kind. I realize that's how we all live the narratives of our lives. But adoption drops you into the story after it has started. It's like reading a book with the first few pages missing. It's like arriving after curtain up. The feeling that something is missing never, ever leaves you, and it can't, and it shouldn't because something is missing. But the missing part, the missing path can be an entry as well as an exit, an opening, as well as a void. You will just have to make it up as you go along.”
And then it goes on for another two pages. It is fantastic. But that bit where she says, I realize that's how we all live the narrative of our lives, but for us it's like reading a book with the first few pages missing.
Haley Radke: I'm going to say that you are the queen of metaphors. I'll never forget the one about pushing a balloon or a beach ball beneath the water, you know? And how it just explodes out. Like you can't shove it down. Talking about opening up the feelings door, right?
Carrie Cahill Mulligan: Right. I think I must have read that. That one I'm pretty sure I can't claim, but, boy, is that powerful, right?
Haley Radke: Whatever, you remember it. I heard it from Carrie first. So good.
What I have brought for you today is all podcasts. So you can fill your empty Adoptees On space with these other shows. As long as you come back for season two, then it's okay.
Carrie Cahill Mulligan: Already subscribed. We're good.
Haley Radke: That's awesome. My first recommendation is the podcast called The Rambler, and it's hosted by Mike McDonald and he is an adoptee. He is adopted from Korea, I believe, and his show is all conversations with international adoptees or transracial adoptees. So they're all around an hour, maybe a little longer. And because Mike is an international adoptee himself, he has great insight into what it's like to go back to your country of origin and try and reconnect with lost culture. I found it really fascinating.
Carrie Cahill Mulligan: How often does he put out an episode?
Haley Radke: He puts out new shows every single Sunday. So your feed can be full and I have not yet caught up. There's a ton.
The next podcast I have to recommend for you is called the Indiana Adoptee Network News, and it's hosted by Pam Croskey.
Pam is the president of the Indiana Adoptee Network. She has about a dozen shows out with lots of different adoptees. It's hosted, I think, by Blog Talk Radio, so it sounds like a phone call between two friends, and she will often ask them about books they might have published or different things like that.
I think Pam is a fellow adoptee, obviously. I don't exactly know what her publishing schedule is. She's been posting a little more lately.
Carrie Cahill Mulligan: Cool. Is there a third? It sounds like you may have a third.
Haley Radke: There is. The last one is brand new and it's from Canada. It's called Out of the Fog.
Carrie Cahill Mulligan: I found that one.
Haley Radke: Yes. It is hosted on CKUT, which is, I think, a university station in Quebec. And they have a new episode on the first Friday of every month. And right now they have just two shows out and they're excellent. They're about half an hour and they're wonderfully produced.
They do interviews with a couple different people. They have a specific topic that they focus on for the show. Very worth your while. I'll post links for that in the show notes. Those are three adoptee podcasts to get you through the hiatus of Adoptees On. But of course, we hope you will subscribe and come and hear us again when we start back up in the new year.
Carrie Cahill Mulligan: Haley, I just wanna say how much I love you.
Haley Radke: Aw, I love you too.
Carrie Cahill Mulligan: Seriously, this has been really life-changing for me. So thanks for the space.
Haley Radke: Well, you're so welcome. Thanks for listening to me bawl.
Carrie Cahill Mulligan: I'm honored to hear your story.
Haley Radke: You can find Carrie on Twitter at CCM Felt Hats, and my personal Twitter account is at Haley Radke. We'll have links to everything we talked about today on our website, adopteeson.com. You can chat with us on Twitter or Instagram at Adoptees On, and our Facebook page is facebook.com/adopteesonpodcast.
Today, would you share our show with a friend? Pick your favorite episode of season one and tell just one person about it. Carrie wanted me to ask you to tell your therapist about our show. So if you think your therapist might enjoy our podcast, please let them know which episode was most meaningful for you.
I will be bringing you new Adoptees On episodes starting in February, and make sure you subscribe so you don't miss any bonus episodes we may drop in your feed.
In the meantime, thanks for listening. Let's talk again soon.
