251 Cam Lee Small, MS, LPCC

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/251

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Haley Radke: This podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing stated on it either by its hosts or any guests, is to be construed as psychological, medical, or legal advice.

You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. I'm Haley Radke.

Cam Lee Small joins us today. You may know him from his extremely popular Instagram account, Therapy Redeemed. Cam shares, how he went from aspiring rock band guitarist, yes, you heard that to a therapist who primarily works with adoptees, both children and adults and their families.

We talk about the complexities of supporting the needs of adopted children while keeping their adoptive parents engaged and willing to listen to adult adoptee voices. Before we get started, I want to invite you to donate to our transcription campaign over at adopteeson.com/donate.

We are working on transcribing the entire back catalog of Adoptees On and need your help to make that possible, to make the podcast more accessible to adoptees around the world. That's adopteeson.com/donate.

Cam and I wrap up with some recommended resources for you today, and as always links to everything we'll be talking about or on the website, AdopteesOn.com.

Let's listen in.

I'm so pleased to welcome to Adoptees On, Cam Lee Small welcome, Cam!

Cam Lee Small: Thanks for having me, Haley.

Haley Radke: I can't believe this is the first time we're talking,

Cam Lee Small: Right. Yeah, I think we've been, or I've been a part of this community that you are already doing a lot in leading in a lot of ways. It's great to be here.

Haley Radke: I know lots of folks will recognize you from your Instagram and have connected with you on there, but I would love it if you would share a little bit of your story with us.

Cam Lee Small: I have different pieces to my story and as I'm even thinking right now, I'm thinking of like the a meandering river. So if there's any piece that feels like we could go in a different direction, feel free to let me know. And for listeners, my, my story is available in different spaces and places, so if there are any questions, I'm always available to, to answer.

Generally speaking, I come to this conversation as a Korean adoptee. I was born in Korea and relinquished around three years old after my dad died and then after two foster placements was eventually placed with a white family in Wisconsin and that's where I went from He Seong Lee and my name changed to Cameron Lee Small, and now I go by Cam Lee Small. And through my own journey of identity development and adoptee consciousness, we can say, and meeting other adoptees, that's how I came to do the work that I do today.

There's a longer story to that, which we'll probably get into a little bit, but that's wrapped up in, in a few sentences.

Haley Radke: So you're an adoptee therapist and you do work with adult adoptees, but I also know you work a lot with adoptive parents. Can you tell us how you decided to become a therapist and why you're brave enough to do some of the hard work that, speak for myself, I'm not willing to do?

Cam Lee Small: I think just a few days ago or a week or so ago on one of your posts, you had mentioned how in the commenting section you appreciate adoptees only speaking or commenting. And you know what an amazing, helpful expectation to set in some of these spaces of who's it for, who can speak, who's listening.

So my journey to becoming a therapist-- I was actually thinking about this today as I was just recounting my story in a different direction and something that I don't know if I've shared in another place. I think a lot of people know that I used to play guitar in touring recording rock band way back in the day. So I'm like 42 right now. In my forties. This is back in my twenties. So when I was in high school, yeah, I think I got my first guitar when I was like 14 or 15 years old. And playing at coffee shops and stuff like that, and then transitioned to other things.

Anyway, I was living in Madison, Wisconsin at the time. This was like 2008, 2009. And the group of friends that I was living with and playing music with and recording with, we had just finished a show in Madison that night. And there was an after party at a friend's apartment and during that season I was very reckless and I didn't have the information that I needed about substance use and the impact of it and maybe even the origins of it and the way it functioned in my life.

Obviously now is a mental health professional I understand some of the under underpinnings there. Back then, I had no clue. And I was, this was maybe about midnight O 1:00 AM and too much over indulgence. And I was just about passing out. I had already been sick about an hour earlier and my friends helping me to the bathroom and right before I, I passed out, the moment where I usually would've just fallen asleep, blacked out, I had this, I was struck by this sort of like existential realization about death. About the brevity of life and my own existence. And really started to face and confront the idea of the temporary, like that the humanity and mortality of myself.

Now, this is for me, I'm not saying that anyone else should believe this or whatever, but that's where I was in my friend's bathtub at 1:00 AM in the morning. Okay. And I think like that day and that season for me, it was like unplugging like a huge crack in the wall or a little hole in a ship where water started to come through. But in a good way. Water meaning information, community resources, help. People.

And for me, up until that point, looking back, what I realized is that because my dad died when I was three, that was in my adoption papers, I'd always known that. And it actually was a cautionary tale from what I remember, because in the papers, my intake papers said that, he fell off of a roof after consuming too much alcohol. So my parents would always just warn me like, hey Cam watch out. Drinking too much. It could be part of your genetic story, and just predisposed to different things.

And I think as a child I took that, okay, great. But it was the idea that, wow, like my dad died. What is death? And as a kid, for me that was, it was both matter of fact, but it was also this big, scary, intimidating, Hey, you better watch out. And death is pretty much the reason why I'm here in Wisconsin. And just a lot of questions that I wasn't ready to ask or maybe even explore the answers to. So it just stayed hidden in a cave. Don't touch that. That's too scary.

And there in the bathtub, I think in that night, a part of me was like, dude, you gotta go back into that cave. You gotta start facing some of that stuff and figure out what's going on. Wrestle with that. And I think, after meeting a few mentors and one mentor specifically. I was working at Best Buy at that time, and one of my managers was a Korean adoptee older brother figure, eunil, and he would, he shared I think the first or second day we met, he shared the story about searching for his birth family.

I didn't even know he could do that. I didn't even know why someone would wanna do that. But he opened my eyes to a lot of the stuff that I talk about today. So I started to normalize the idea that, okay, so maybe part of your origin story, adoption, race identity, that maybe that's a thing that you could start looking into.

What I realized is that I didn't have language up until that point. I didn't have words or language or even maybe the permission from the culture or from myself to ask these questions. And I think ultimately what I realized is that I got the feeling there's some predators inside this cave. Eat me alive. It's gonna be scary and brutal.

After becoming a clinician, what I've come to realize is that dark place and just the cave in general, what's inside there, instead of battle language I started to approach it with collaborative language. Almost like a partnership. How can I listen to and hear and honor and partner with what's inside to understand myself? Cause that's my story.

And how can I turn this cave into a counseling space? How can I turn it into a bed for some of my brokenness, my hurts, my pains? Even a workroom to figure out, okay, how can I use this to peek out and see who else is in the cave? And instead of, I think, yeah, I was living my life doing all this stuff, playing music, and I thought I was like, I was very anti-government, middle finger to any authority. I can do what I want. I'm my own person. Just punk rock metal. Ah, like this, right?

And so instead of seeing it as like chains pulling me back into the cave. Hey, you better confront this stuff. What I realized, especially with my recent trip back to China and Korea a few weeks ago, it, it's what was in that cave? Probably my three, three year old self. Three year old, four year old Cam reaching out, saying; What in the world is going on? I have no clue what's going on here. Why am I going to the 2, 3, 4 different caregivers? What happened?

Okay. Getting to Wisconsin, we didn't really talk about that. Okay. And is that my parents' fault? 'Did they have resources? That's a whole 'nother story. It's the younger piece. It's those unresolved unintegrated pieces of me that were reaching out during that season. That was a whole journey.

And then like that, my meeting other adoptees. Connecting to community, doing my own reunion trips, that's what led me to say, wow, how can I explore and figure out how to meet with other people who might be going through a similar process? And I'm not gonna project mine onto theirs and say, you are doing the same thing as me, but at least have some kind of a process to say, I get it. Yeah I'm adopted too and I've got these things. And learn also.

I really appreciate your origin with the podcast. I think Hailey, you mentioned something like you wanted to launch the podcast that you needed when you were younger, something like that. How can I become and learn how to become the mentor, the person, the advocate I needed when I was younger? And how can I learn how to be the advocate that people need today? Because growing up in the eighties is a lot different than growing up today. So there's some new stuff that I need to figure out, like driving a fifties car, okay, now we have, automatic transmission, whatever.

There's new language that's constantly evolving. And that's what brings me to-- that's my process right now professionally. Both helping folks and even continuing on this lifelong work internally. But also linking arms with other people who are trying to do this too, and working for that like collective release of captivity of sorts.

So that's like the long version of why I became a therapist. My advisor said, Hey, you know what? This is a possible profession for you. Look into it. He gave me some books.

The camp director at Hold International that I volunteered at, Steve Kalb, shared with me. Yeah. I asked him, Hey, camp is awesome. I'm traveling five weeks throughout the summer as a voluntary camp counselor meeting with these adoptees, like middle school, high school age. I asked him like, where else do they get this?

And he's; there's not really many other spaces outside of the summer. And I'm like, oh, no wonder. That's why these kids come to camp. They say, this is the highlight. They've been waiting for this all year. How can I be a part of that all year round for these folks?

So that's where I am now and I know there are a lot of adoptee elders and advocates who've been doing this work for ages, and that's incredible. I'm honored to walk with them, receive the baton, learn from them. Highlight them as well.

Haley Radke: Yes. Same. We stand on the shoulders and walk with, yes. I don't know how to put this, and I've been thinking about it for a really long time, so you can just bear with me. I wonder how it is for you treading this line in welcoming in adoptive parents to understanding the separation trauma that adopted people have experienced without pushing them away with too much information? But also including the real, real from adopted people.

And I think you've, you have found a way to balance this and sometime, I don't know if you wanna talk about this, sometimes, sometime you may feel like, oh, maybe that was a little misstep for this side, for adoptees, or, oh, that was a misstep for adoptive parents.

Like I just, a therapist friend of mine said, oh, I don't bring that stuff up with adoptive parents of my clients for I don't know, six, 10 months, because it takes so long to get there. What are your thoughts on how you navigate that?

Cam Lee Small: Thank you for bringing me back to the loop here. Cause I think your original question was about how, working with adoptive parents or adoptees in general. What kind of began as just Hey I'm this dude. I'm pretty skeptical of like community and people and just like serving. Going from that to, Hey, how can I participate in making society a better place?

There are nuances to that. So there's just, for me, it was the initial turn that, hey, my life is more than just me and just doing whatever I want. There are other people on Earth too, and how can I meet them? There's that. And then there is the formal training: undergrad psychology major and then master's in counseling psychology. And then doing the 4,000 hours supervised training, face-to-face, submitting all the paperwork, the credentialing, licensure to serving the community as a licensed professional clinical counselor.

Once getting through that, for me personally, it wasn't like, okay, I got licensed and now I automatically transformed to this person who's gonna start educating parents and adoptees.

I actually didn't start working with adoptees face-to-face as a clinician until a little bit further on in my hours and after becoming licensed. It was inevitable that working with this community I was speaking with the parents every day. Update. So they would bring their child to the lobby. Okay, so and so let's, we go back in the room and we talk, and then afterwards we, update this is what we did today. This is their plan for the next week. Sometimes the parents come in.

And even in that space, there is there's still stigma around mental health, but I think working with parents so that, because I know that I'm working with these children and adolescents and teens in the therapy space. They're telling me their story. I get what's going on here, and we're working on skills together and unpacking pieces of their life and then transitioning into my private practice that was centered on adoption and adoptees and really came from my own reunion trip, meeting another adoptee, several adoptees on my reunion trip back in 2012 in Korea. But them saying, Hey, I've been searching for my dad for 10 years.

It's tough. I'm like, okay. Now as a counselor, like I get it. It is tough. I met my mom in Korea. I still have questions and feelings about it. How can we walk this road together? So that's where my practice that was the entry point. And then all of these parents started contacting me.

That's awesome. I'm so glad they trusted me enough. They had the time to read through my little blog and see what I'm about, and they actually invited me into their life. I don't take that lightly. In fact, when anyone invites me into their life, I cherish that. That's certain kind of like intimacy that you don't just hand out to people every day.

So I have to be very responsible with that. I try to as much as I can. Making mistakes along the way, being human learning, trying to put these lessons into practice. So I had this sort of like flood of inquiries. Now this is like 2019, 2018. 2019. I started my practice virtual. I don't have a clinic. It was all online, telehealth. The screen saves on travel time. A lot of teens felt comfortable behind the screen anyway. That's great. They can sit in a room or in the living room. They don't have to feel embarrassed or whatever. And we're, and they can access it wherever we have wifi.

And then this was actually right before we left China last time, the pandemic hit. COVID. All of a sudden everyone is online. We have to find out a way to serve the community virtually. And again, more adoptive parents. More folks in the community, allies, caregivers, professionals contacting me. So that's that was my entry point into it. Into part of this work, also serving adult adoptees who contacted me.

But I think when I began, Haley, if I had to give like a percentage or a ratio, probably my caseload was like, I would say it's like it was 50/ 50 adoptive parents, family members, and then adult adoptees, we'll say it was 50/ 50. And then I think the invitation to speak at either an adoption agency or a conference or at a small group, that came from primarily an adoptive parent audience. Hey, I'm the director for X, Y, Z agency, and we'd love for you to come in and teach us about whatever. Talk to us about your story. And that's where I came in. For me, I'm generally comfortable speaking anywhere. I think even just now I'm realizing I've been talking a lot.

So if I don't have a filter or a gauge in my mind, I can just talk. And I've had to work on that. And I, even through my own counseling and diagnoses and everything, I, that's something I'm working on. Anyway, comfortable talking and then I do get it because I've received questions over the years, not even as a counselor, but when I was a camp director for Holt, when I worked as a volunteer for Holt, when I worked as a volunteer, like five or six summers for Camp Choson here, I got the sense that sometimes parents were asking questions that I didn't quite know what, how to name my reaction. And I would gladly answer it to the best of my capacity.

But I started to get why other adult adoptees might not feel comfortable or safe speaking to adoptive parents. But I understand that's a space that you have to make a conscious decision about being in before we enter it. So the thing, personal invitation to it was my experience at adoptee camp.

I'm at camp all week. It's hot mosquitoes. We're doing summer, fun, water balloons, campers, like staying up too late. Hey, go to bad guys, and wake up in the morning, food, fight, all of this stuff. Like I love these guys. These are my people, my kin, my, my adoptee like siblings, right?

And then when they're parents say things like, oh, we don't see color. Come on. Like during the panel. I get goosebumps even right now when I say that cuz I can, I vividly remember like the exact situations and the parents. It dawned on me that, gosh, I have to say goodbye to you and you're going home with them for a year. I'm not, I don't wanna demonize these parents, but what I want to ask is, Hey, that belief that compelled you to say I don't see color and that belief that potentially compels you to withhold or neglect access to resources throughout the year, throughout the other 359 days of the year. That belief, how can I sit with you in that belief and explore it? Ask questions about it. I wanna, I don't wanna tell anyone what to believe, but how can we have a dialogue to add to your belief?

Maybe it's adding some new information that you haven't heard. Maybe it's inviting you to dig into and reflect on your own story a little bit to, to figure out where you got that, where did you learn this? Maybe it's increasing your sense of awareness to see how does that impact Joey when you say that? Or how does it impact Joey when he doesn't even get to talk to these friends for the whole year? He's going back to this little small town or even a big town, this predominantly non adoptee, or not white or whatever. How can I sit with that?

And for me, one way to support little Joey from my camper group is to talk to Joey's parent somehow. Metaphorically speaking. So throughout the year, and this is, this has changed over some time, but throughout the year, that's how I see speaking with adoptive parents. I want to serve and love the adopted community in one way, one avenue, one in road. Not to treat the APs as some object for my goal, but they're people too.

But I want to sit with those people because they're the people sitting with those people. I want to sit with the adopted parents because they're the ones sitting with the adoptees. Okay? And this is all post-adoption. We haven't got into like preventative care, family preservation, but I'm just-- post-adoption itself. Hey, you're taking Joey home with you. We gotta talk before you leave. There's just one more thing, quick. So that's where I see the speaking engagements, the workshops, the discussions, the dialogue. It's the inroad into part of the adopted community that some of us might not have access to.

Haley Radke: I am. I know it's tricky. And so for a lot of us who are working more in just adoptee advocacy, navigating into that space, it can be so triggering because, and I promise I'm gonna move on to a different topic. It can be so triggering because I hear adoptive parents even you been in on a few interviews and podcasts where it's adoptive parents interviewing you, and they'll say oh yeah, yes, we're trauma informed and da-da-da-da, and yet they're still talking to prospective adoptive parents and being complicit in a very harmful adoption industry. I'm like, okay. You get it, but not all the way. But anyway, I'm glad that you are open to talking to them and for the good of those little adoptees. But let's move and talk about adult adoptees.

I'm curious your thoughts on-- I loved what you said about looking in the cave. I wasn't ready to ask, did I have permission from the culture or myself? And for a lot of us I see adopted people who start looking in the cave and get very angry and they see all the problems and they may get stuck there.

Or we see the adoptees who don't wanna look there whatsoever because it's not safe, doesn't feel safe, and you wrote this whole workbook, This Is Why I Was Adopted, and you are talking through all of these pieces of how, if we look at our full narrative and process, that can be so beneficial.

So can you speak to that a little bit and also, I know you're a person of faith and this term is not necessarily connected to faith, but there's some of us that can do this spiritual bypassing like move, where especially for someone that maybe is a Christian, you can be like, oh, this was God's plan and it just jumps over all that processing of our story so that's a big. Topic, but I know you can. You can do it.

Cam Lee Small: Okay. So what we've got here, I think you mentioned, Hey, what about some folks that start processing the cave and it's a lot and they might get stuck there, or, Hey, we don't even want to go there. There's that piece and then well, we'll start there.

I think I, maybe your question is like, how do we support this or what's it been like to walk with folks in that process?

Haley Radke: I think you're talking to a lot of adopted people, right? Adoptees are the majority of my listeners, and I feel sad for the ones who get stuck.

Cam Lee Small: Yeah.

Haley Radke: I also feel sad for the ones who don't even wanna look, because I think we're not truly experiencing our true story then. And that could feel safe for a while. But I think, as my listeners come find me in their thirties, in their forties, in their fifties, in their sixties, in their seventies, what age is it safe to look?

Cam Lee Small: Yes. You used the term jump over spiritual bypassing is this idea that we're gonna jump over some of these pieces of your story that either are too difficult. We don't have words for that seem counter to what we quote unquote believe or interpret from scripture, sacred text. And I think that jumping over, it reminds me as we're talking right now, Haley, the adoptee consciousness model that I referenced earlier. And folks can go look that up. You can probably leave a link in the show notes. One of the phases or touchpoints we could say, cause it's not linear, it's like the more of a spiral we can return to these touchpoints.

Out of the five touchpoints, the first one is status quo. And we can apply this to just life in general with adoption. The status quo is, hey, nothing to see here. The narrative, the story I've grown up with, Rescue. Luck. Fortune, God's plan. That's where I'm at. Okay. And the piece about the adoptee consciousness ethos is we're not judging folks who are walking in that sort of like storyline.

There's no hierarchy to say, this person who's in forgiveness and activism phase, they're better than someone else. But the invitation though is, hey, we do recognize that to do some of this work, this internal exploratory, emotional, cognitive, spiritual work. It is laborous, it does require bandwidth and time and resources. And relationships shift. Worldview changes, transforms. That's a whole season of life. Okay? So if someone says, now is not the time, then I believe them. Okay.

Now the next two phases I think are like rupture and dissonance. Rupture being, Hey, there's some new information I've gotten, but I'm gonna dig my heels in even further and say, gosh, I was really lucky to be adopted. Gosh, I'm sorry that your one specific story is the exception. I'm sorry about that. But adoption is still a blessing worldwide.

And then the dissonance is, okay, actually, let me just sit with this for a second. Now. I've got some multiple feelings coming up and this is just a lot. And I'm curious. I wanna know a little bit more. I wanna take my time though. It feels intimidating. And who are these new people?

The fourth touchpoint about like expansiveness and being able to sit with multiple feelings at the same time, explore multiple identities, our intersectionality, our connection to different family systems, different belief systems, different people groups. Learning to navigate that and even maybe attending community events, hearing other people's story. That's like the expansiveness phase. And I'm not the expert on this. I'm just off the top of my head of what I have felt myself and read, and I think for adult adoptees, if they don't wanna go look in that cave, like I said, that's okay.

For the ones that do, there is a part of another model. I can't remember exactly the name of this model. There's another five point model. I think one of the phases in that one is like drowning in awareness or drowning in anger. Something like this. And I think that particular model was normed on white adoptees.

White adult adoptees. The piece there though is yes, we're feeling anger. And I've said this before, we're feeling anger at something though. We're not just angry as an identity. I'm not just an angry person point blank. My anger is a response to some unrighteous harm that has been done against people or done by people to others.

So I'm not just angry. I'm angry at something. So we're gonna meet with people or we're gonna have space, we're gonna say it's normal to have this reaction. And so Sandy White Hawk said this in a training recently that I wasn't a part of, but Director Keely told me that they said it, that it's a normative response to a not normal situation. Or it's a normal response to an unnatural situation, something like this.

But essentially, yeah, if an adoptee or, if I feel angry about something, it, of course you would. Why? Why wouldn't you feel angry that you somehow along the way, lost your language, your family, your kinship, your community, your culture, your... all of this legacy. Ancestry. Why wouldn't you have feelings of anger. Okay?

So we're normalizing that. And with the adult adopted community, myself included, I walk with folks as a fellow sojourner. I'm not this know-it-all expert. I'm a person too. Learning along with folks right now, what? It's April, 2023. There are new studies happening.

Like Holly McGinnis is doing the mapping, the life course of adoptees, just right now. In real time adult adoptees are researching adult adoptees. Still paving the way, pioneering this stuff, inventing new language, or in building on new language. So that's where I'm at here, as I honor like where adult adoptees are, fifties, sixties, seventies. It's any time while you're alive is fair game to start asking about adoption.

Haley Radke: I love that it's just become more and more normalized to explore these things. And I think you're one of the unique ones who has experienced reunion. I know it can be very difficult for transnational adoptees to search and you share about this on social, about your meeting with your mother. And I'm gonna link to an interview you did with Kaomi on Adapted, where you talk more about it in depth. But one of the things I really appreciated, especially in, and This Is Why I Was Adopted, you talk about this like, when the meeting's happening, like this is like this momentous occasion.

I had that same, I had that the same momentous occasion, right? Meeting your mother in person and then feeling numb and what's happening and time slows. And yet I think it's such a gift for us to share about those things so that the people that come after us and have those experiences don't feel like, oh my God, what's wrong with me?

I didn't feel anything. It was like, it was weird. Do you mind talking a little bit about that and what's happened subsequently for you? Because a lot of us look for reunion to fix everything. Oh, now we'll know who we are and oh, now we'll be able to process whatever.

But it's just not a fix. Not a band-aid.

Cam Lee Small: It's not a band-aid, it's not a fix. For me, my reunion trip, the first one there was part of this five year process. Four or five year process where I initiated the search and then eventually, they notified me that they found this candidate. And in the room meeting, you're right. And I wanna be careful too, and I write more in depth about that in my upcoming book that I don't wanna like over glorify the reunion meeting. Because it was mine. It's not yours. It's no one else's, and yours isn't mine. It's yours. It's no one else's.

So every single individual person on the planet who has this potential to experience reunion, has permission to experience it as they do. They don't need to fit it into some kind of story arc or model, or some kind of Hallmark testimony to bring back to the church or the community.

You are allowed to experience it how you experience it. You are also allowed to process that for the rest of your life. And you can bring that into different spaces. Hear it through new angles. Hear it even through other people's testimonies as parts of your story resonates with them or parts of their story resonate with you.

That's how life works. That's how it works. So yes, for me I believe in that the particular workbook that you're referencing, it was a both/ and. It was this sort of pinnacle moment that I had been walking toward ever since Eunil at Best Buy told me that he met his mom or he was searching for. And hearing other adoptees at camp and other adoptees sharing this with me, here I am now in the actual building. Eastern Child Welfare in Seoul okay?

And I didn't have this flood of emotions in that moment. There were other times after that where I certainly experienced floods of different emotions in that particular moment, though it was numb. I didn't know exactly how to feel. Silence. Awkward. Mom feels sorry, thankful, guilty shame at the same time.

And I'm sitting there and my particular story was that, she actually had canceled the meeting when I first got to Korea. So I went through my own process of grief and anger and confusion, lament, frustration. Like on the front end before I even stepped into that room.

So I wonder what would that have been like if I didn't have that process? I don't know. I can't go back in time, but that's a reality. Being there in the room and then having a friend interpret for me and then going to dinner. And then in the hotel room afterwards, it was surreal. It was in some ways it was like watching it happen, out of body experience and, my mom rolling up some bulgogi and meat into lettuce and asking if she can feed me. Kind eat and feed me.

I, there's some things that I think my body felt familiar with somehow, there. There's a lot more to that, but just affirming what you're sharing, Haley, that it can be whatever it is to whoever is experiencing it. That's what reunion can be. We're allowed to have that.

Haley Radke: I just talking with you for this last hour it feels like you are just such a wholehearted person and I can tell that you've done so much work to get to this place. And I feel very thankful for what you've contributed to our community and in doing work that some of us can't do. And doing work with and for other adopted people. So I feel very thankful for you.

I wanted to recommend your workbook. We're really excited about your book coming out pretty soon, so we'll make sure to share that when all that news happens. This Is Why I Was Adopted. There is a big faith piece in some of these strands. So for folks who that is not comfortable, that might not be the right thing for you, but you share so much wisdom and knowledge on your Instagram and blog and things.

The other thing I really appreciate, and I guess we're not gonna have time to talk about but, is that you often are providing commentary on the hot topic adoption issues of the moment. And so sometimes I think those are great talking points for us to be educating our friends and family about the complexities of adoption. And if you're ever looking for language around some of those things, I think Cam, you do a really great job on social of unpacking those things like in real time.

And also the community always comes and brings nuance and other perspectives. So I hope folks will check you out for that. And we'll link to some of the other podcast episodes you've done so folks can hear a little more of your story. What do you wanna recommend to us today?

Cam Lee Small: From a mental health perspective, the resource that I refer folks to a lot is to Grow Beyond Words Adoptee Therapist Directory. Especially this past season as my availability is really limited. I often refer folks to that. And that's like a cumulative list, and I think it's still growing. That Dr. Chaitra has put together.

Now, I, for the clinicians on there, there's gonna be a state. So there's clinicians in each state, and it'll let you know whether they offer virtual counseling services, telehealth, the in-person groups, all of that's available. So if you're currently looking for counseling services check that out. Dr. Chaitra is releasing a book series called Adoptees Like Me. And that's been really neat to see because the illustrations are beautiful. The stories are, by adoptees about adoptees and certainly folded into this larger conversation that when we're telling stories about adoption and naming the nuances, who's leading that? And I think Dr. Chitra's book series is a great example say, Hey we can look at this. And it's an example.

It's it's not the only book. It shouldn't be it's part of the collective. And that's one thing you're mentioning Haley, with talking about adoptee topics, adoption topics in the moment. Something that I've so appreciated over time is that especially like online community, that we're doing our best.

Everyone's doing our best to walk forward in solidarity, to raise awareness, to affirm one another, to encourage one another, to give each other space. We're all learning together. You said something earlier, shoulders of giants. Yes. We're on this standing on the shoulders of giants. We're also walking side by side with our adoptee neighbors and siblings.

And to me that's a gift because I didn't have that when I was younger. When I was 3, 4, 5, 6 years old when I was a teenager, even young adult, I didn't have that. So to know that this is part of our story right now, currently in real time, really is a gift and I'm very thankful for that.

Haley Radke: I'm curious about, and you don't have to answer, this is how moving forward, if you'll ever be more comfortable sharing more about family preservation and the upstream systemic problems that cause adoption to exist in the first place?

And, you briefly mentioned that during our conversation and like I think that so many of us are hungry for our leaders to be talking about that. And getting those adoptive parents on board and seeing all of those things. So curious about that too.

Cam Lee Small: Yes. I took some time to address that in the upcoming book and even I think in the workbook, talking a little bit from Dr. Terry Cross's relational worldview model. And thinking through, why do individuals and families in a particular community feel compelled or how are they in a situation that leads them to need to relinquish their children in the first place? What's that all about?

Why is the church emphasizing pouring resources and generosity and service and love into this sort of like post-adoption testimony. Where have we, and I'm included in that, where have we neglected to look, like prior, upstream, like you said? What's going on here? And I think I addressed some of that in just, you can, it's peppered throughout my website and things. But you said it. We're hungry. We wanna talk about this more and we want to take action more.

So that's allocating resources. That's being involved in legislation. That's being involved in just even in the communities face-to-face. Strengths-based language around birth, family, even just language itself. Calling someone a birth mother before things happen? No.

What is coercive? What's not? What's generous, what isn't? What's appropriate? How do we shift all of this toward instead of adoption being the default funnel, end of the road? Maybe we can make some new ones so that families can actually even stay intact.

So I know we've all got a few minutes left, but Yes. Yes.

Haley Radke: Love it. Alright, Cam.

Cam Lee Small: Absolutely.

Haley Radke: Where can we connect with you online, find your resources, and engage with you more?

Cam Lee Small: Right now you can connect with me on Instagram at Therapy Redeemed. My website, it's just therapyredeemed.com/wordpress. I have a Facebook group ,Therapy Redeemed. I'll send you the link for that. And email. I always appreciate folks hitting me up through email, ask questions, so. Try to be available as possible.

I'm a one person kind of show here. So I don't have the staff and human resources to get to every single thing. Personally, I try to. And that's why if someone sends me a message, you might wait four or five weeks, but I'm answering you personally. It's not a bot or AI. It's actually me. So just, thanks for your patience on that and thanks for taking time to connect.

Haley Radke: Thank you so much, Cam I really enjoyed chatting with you today.

Cam Lee Small: Thanks for hosting this this space for me, Haley.

Haley Radke: I really respect people who can call out the problems and do it in a generous, kind, way without alienating folks. And I don't always, I don't always do that well. So I really look up to my peers who are able to manage that whole piece. And I think Cam is one of them.

As I told you at the top of the show, we are working right now to transcribe the entire back catalog of Adoptees On, which takes an extremely huge amount of money and labor, and even with some volunteer hours, it is still a huge cost.

And so if the show has been helpful to you in any way and, especially if you are an adoptive parent and you've never been like, I'm not joining her Patreon. I'm not an adoptee. I don't wanna be there, I don't wanna infringe on their safe space.

Please consider donating to this project. It's adopteeson.com/donate, and then you can see like how far we are along in our goal and how far we have to go. And I would appreciate it. Any amount you can give is super duper helpful and so many of you have been really generous with us already and I really appreciate.

Thank you so much. Adopteeson.com/donate. And thank you for listening. Today's episode, we'll be back next Friday with a brand new show for you. Let's talk again then.

250 [Healing Series] Pet Loss and Grief

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/250

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Haley Radke: This podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing stated on it either by its hosts or any guests, is to be construed as psychological, medical, or legal advice.

You're listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. I'm Haley Radke. If you've been around the show for a while, you may remember. Almost exactly one year ago, I said goodbye to my best little furry friend, Lucy. She was 16 and had been with me almost my entire adult life.

I had so many people reach out during that time. When I was grieving, who had also lost a pet companion, and so we started this conversation as a community about how especially weighty the grief can be for an adopted person. Today's guest is Laura Summers, an adoptee and therapist, and we are talking about how pet loss is a form of disenfranchised.

Laura holds my hand figuratively through this challenging conversation about how dear our pets can become to us, and she teaches us how we can move through grief in a way that honours ourselves and our pets instead of trying to get to a finish line of feeling, quote unquote, fine. This may be a hard conversation to listen to as we talk about choosing euthanasia and some other challenging topics.

So please take care when deciding whether or not this is the episode for you today. Before we get started, I wanted to personally invite you to join our Patreon adoptee community today on adopteeson.com/community, which helps support you and also the show to support more adoptees around the world. We wrap up with some recommended resources for you today, and as always, links to everything we'll be talking about are on the website, AdopteesOn.com.

Let's listen in.

I am so pleased to welcome to adoptees on Laura Summers. Hi Laura.

Laura Summers: Hi Haley. I'm so glad to be here.

Haley Radke: I'm so glad too. Do you know we share a name? I have Laura as my second name.

Laura Summers: Oh, wow. I did not know that. That's cool.

Haley Radke: How about that? So you are an adoptee who's also a therapist, and I was wondering if you could share a little bit of your story with us?

Laura Summers: Yeah, absolutely. I was adopted in a closed domestic adoption. My adoptive parents struggled like many other adoptive parents within infertility and sought adoption for a child. And then I'm also one of those people that ha they became pregnant once they discovered, they already had discovered they were adopting.

And so my sister is actually seven months younger than I am, and she's their biological child. And so they went from zero kids to basically twins. And so that's the adoption story. My adopt, my adoption remains closed. It was in the state of Oklahoma and I'm, that's not one of the states right now that I think is opening up records.

But I'm fortunate enough to have been in a really great reunion process and I'm now entered year four and have a great relationship with my first mom, and she has two kids from a subsequent relationship. So I have half-brothers also.

Haley Radke: Okay. I have lots of things I wanna ask you about that, but I we're talking about something different today.

Laura Summers: Yes.

Haley Radke: And you and I also have in common that we've lost some of our dear beloved pets.

Laura Summers: Yes.

Haley Radke: Why don't you share? Do you, did you have animals growing up? I grew up with two different dogs. Let me go first. I, we had a blue healer when I was really little, who was a grouchy old dog and died when I was five or six.

So do not have fond memories of that dog. And then after that we got a dog named Barney who was, I think a terrier poodle cross.

Laura Summers: Oh wow. That's a lot of energy.

Haley Radke: Yeah, he was pretty low-key actually. Okay, good. We adopted him from the S P C A at the time. Now it's Humane Society in our city, but he was I think three when we got him. So he had a few bad habits, but yeah, he was my buddy. And when I went off to college, He was still alive and he died when I was away. I didn't really, I don't know. It wasn't the same. And so then we subsequently to that, Nick and I, my husband, we got Lucy. And she died a year ago. So Lucy was a Pomeranian shi tsu cross, and my first dog of my own.

Laura Summers: Those are so precious. Yeah.

Haley Radke: How about you?

Laura Summers: Very similar. We grew up with golden retrievers. My dad's a huge dog person, and so he was the one who would seek out dogs. We always had animals around in the house. And actually when I was younger, I liked cats, I think more than dogs. So I have a heart for both.

I think they're both, all those animals are precious and when I set out on my own, I ended up with two cats for my college roommates that nobody could really take them where they were going. So I had two cats for a while and I was resisting getting a dog. And my sweet cousin, who is also a huge animal lover, she, I think she had a couple people at her work find this dog in the park.

Somebody had left her chain to a park bench and she was a Jack Russell Beagle mix. She mostly looked like a Jack Russell. My cousin dropped her off at my house and she said, you need a dog. Oh, she was right. I did need a dog and I named her Penny and that was my first dog. And that's, let me tell you, Jack Russell is quite the introduction to your own dog. It's a lot of. It's a lot of energy.

Haley Radke: Slash beagle. Beagles are wild. Wow. Okay. I wanted to name Lucy Penny.

Laura Summers: Yeah.

Haley Radke: And Nick refused. So you had the penny. Oh.

Laura Summers: I had the Penny. Yeah, I know they're, she was the best, she was wild. I'm, but in a fun way, in a very mischievous way, and I feel like. Animals are just they just teach us so many things. And I think especially those animals we get once we've gone out on our own, because they're, there are, it's almost, it's like chosen family, right? Like they're ours. And so I had Penny, and then over the years I have I later adopted two pit bulls.

We're pretty sure the people that were selling them were potentially going to fight them. The ones that didn't sell. And I ended up with Gunner and Umma and they were brother and sister. And I now have another dog, Winnie. She's wild. If you follow me on social media, you'll like, that's seriously almost all I post anymore pictures of my dog because. She's just cute and they're just precious. So I am obviously now a huge crazy dog lady and I fully embraced it.

Haley Radke: I did go back on your Instagram and your very first picture on Instagram. Yes, girl, way back. It's a dog.

Laura Summers: It is. Yep.

Haley Radke: Oh, okay. I love what you talked about. If it's our dog that we, or a pet that we got when we're first out on our own. And I think, I don't know, this is not applied to all adopted people, but while I've been trying to explain to my husband why we need to get another dog, I said to him, I'm like, she's been the one that has been with me this whole time.

I was never alone cuz I had her. I already warned you before we started recording that I was gonna cry today. And so here it comes. And he was like you know it's okay to be alone. I was like, says you. Which one of us was alone for the first 10 days of their life? Thank you very much, sir.

Laura Summers: Yeah.

Haley Radke: Anyway, do you have thoughts on. Having pets as adoptees. And what is special about that versus the, of course all humans enjoy, some humans may enjoy their pets and have of course, a special relationship with them. Talk specifically about us.

Laura Summers: Yeah. I just think animals. Of relate to us in a non-verbal way. And I was trying to think about having this conversation and what is it about that non-verbal communication that we share with animals. And I think for me, there's almost like a mirroring going on with your animals. You don't have to have the right words, you don't have to explain what's happening. A lot of times they just know and.

We, a lot of us don't have that in our life. We don't have that kind of relationship with a another person. So having that in an animal, it's just so powerful and special. And I understand completely that desire that you have to want that back probably in a way, right? To have another relationship to that in that way with an animal, because, Relationships are really hard and it's just so nice to have that like safe place to land.

Haley Radke: And that piece of the unconditional love is so amazing. And to have somebody, some, something, think you're the best is pretty awesome because I don't know, I constantly feel like I'm disappointing people. And I didn't disappoint my dog. She was here for it. In fact, she was with me through pretty much every single recording of the show ever and her little collar jingles. And later when she was sick, her dog coughs. Yeah. So she has she was, the presence was even in the show. And I remember thinking after she passed, I'm like, oh, I wish I had collected all of those noises so I could, put them together for me somewhere. I don't know what, but for people who audio is important, I was like, oh, I'll, I don't hear that again.

Laura Summers: Yeah. We were talking about having this conversation, I know I had messaged you that I think another piece of not only is having pets important to us, but I think their loss hits us in such a different way. And I think it's because pet loss is really another kind of disenfranchised grief, and so much of our society is based on this idea that we just need to pick it up and move on.

A lot of us have had that experience around our adoption, right? Okay, it's over now. Let's just onto the next thing. And so to have that kind of loss. And it's like another layer. And I think it's also we've lost someone who we love and who's important to us, and we know that's at the core of adoption for us as adoptees.

Haley Radke: So let's unpack disenfranchise grief that term for folks who may not have heard it before. Because a part of grieving, say you lose your mother, for most people, if their mother dies, everyone's oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. It's a big thing. They may come and bring support to your door. You may get casserole. Now or adoptees who did lose our mothers when we were relinquished at first, but we may not get that same acknowledgement Anyway. You just tell us a little bit more about what disenfranchised grief is.

Laura Summers: Yeah. You're nailing it, right? Like I think a lot of, for adopted parents, adoption is joy and and those are the people that, initiate the adoption a lot of times and are kind of, the adoption is centered around, people are celebrating that. And so disenfranchised grief is really a type of grief that can be invisible to other people, but also just not recognized as a society and also even within ourselves. And I think that's something that I'm recognizing even now at 38, almost 39, that wow, I, how much space have I given myself?

To see this grief and to honor that and leave space for that and not have to put on this happy face and, be okay all the time.

Haley Radke: And so pet loss as a disenfranchised grief, I think we would see that not just for adoptees, but for anyone .And, especially for people who don't have pets and don't get it, or oh, sorry, your cat died. Like it's just this one-off kind of thing, and they just don't see the deep impact it's had on you. And in fact, when Lucy died, I was a disaster for quite a while. I think I put the show on every other week for a month or two. Because I just couldn't, I just couldn't function. I couldn't get it together.

And I was really suffering. And the people that showed up, I had a couple of, in real life people show up for me, but were my adoptee friends. Yes, I got flowers from one of my friends who's an adoptee therapist. She literally sent me flowers to my house. One of my friends sent me a mug with Lucy's photo on it.

I got a book about pet grief from another friend. I got several cards and so many kind messages and things and then in private people were messaging me about their own pet losses and the strange things, quote unquote strange things they had done when their pets had. My, my inbox was like a confessional.

Laura Summers: Wow.

Haley Radke: Like I started sleeping with my pet's toys and I collected pet fur and I wouldn't wash their, one of their blankets like it's a smell. Like different people were sending me all these. Whoa. Okay. I'm not, I'm feeling a little more normal that this huge feeling is so like over.

Laura Summers: It's so hard. Yeah. Yeah.

Haley Radke: Yeah. What was it like for you when your first pet of your own died?

Laura Summers: Oh, it's still really hard to think about, and it was actually the month before my husband and I got married. And Penny was, I think she was 10, not quite 10, and it was so sudden she just got really sick out of nowhere, immediately had to go to the emergency, the emergency hospital and stay.

And so it was March, 2017 and I just remember. It was such a shock, and I wasn't ready for that. I think sometimes, just like any other loss and illness you have, you might have time. If it's a prolonged thing, you might have some time to really think about what was happening. And I didn't get that.

And we were planning our wedding and about to do that, and so it was just so overwhelming. But I got a sense when she died, I was there, when they put her down, we, I had chosen to be there, both my husband and I were there, and I just got this sense, the second that they had said that she had passed I got, I was still profoundly sad and crying and all of that.

Of course. And I also got a sense like, she's free, and she's happy where she is and safe. I know this might be strange to say, but it almost felt like a relief to me that I could experience that saying goodbye, rather than having to do what we've done in our lives and pretend like I'm gonna be okay and pretend like this is okay, and oh, everyone else seems okay, so I'm gonna put a smile on. I didn't have to do that in that situation and that, that felt like a gift to me in a way. You know.

Haley Radke: Yeah.

Laura Summers: There's something about grief that just feels, it's so profoundly painful, but it's not a pointless kind of pain. It's purposeful in a way, and especially when it's with someone who we've had such a deep connection with and important relationship with, there's a ritual to grief. I think we need that more in our lives. We need space for that.

Haley Radke: Yeah. I really, ugh, I really wanna talk more about that because I really thought I'd be ready to talk with you about this. I remember when Lucy died. I'm pretty sure you were one of the people that sent encouraging words to me and then, midway through last year, maybe Gunner died and I was like, oh, no, I, so I messaged you.

And so I don't remember exactly when we first started talking about doing a show on this topic. And I, at first I was just like, Girl, I'm not ready. Nope. But at some point.

Laura Summers: I don't know if we're ever ready. It's just so hard. Yeah.

Haley Radke: Yeah. When you're talking about Penny and making the decision to euthanize even in a, like a kind of a surprise medical sitation, for me, Lucy was 16. Which is old AF for a dog, and she had health issues and I literally was telling myself for months, like the time is coming, and I really was mapping out how I would tell my kids and all of those things.

And at some point, there was a couple different steps along the way to decide that she was, it was more, I was letting her live and suffer for me and it was not kind anymore. And to come, oh God .

Laura Summers: There's not a worst decision to have to make than that. There's just. That's the worst kind of decision. And I think that's how, obviously most of us I think, have to do that with our pets sometime. And for an adoptee to do that, that's ju like my heart hurts, remembering that kind of decision that we make. And I also know there's kindness in it. It's just so hard to hold both of those things and remember that when you're doing it because you're... I was so all encompassed with, I'm just gonna miss this presence in my life so much.

Haley Radke: Yeah. Yeah. I think having the grief out front, I feel like I've tried to lead with that. All aspects of the things I do to the point where, okay, one of my kids last week told me, he's oh my gosh, mom, are you just like trying to depress us or what? Because I kept saying something like, everybody is going to die eventually.

And I talk about death a lot. We talk about grieving. I used to say I still sometimes say, I'm like, I think I could work at a funeral home. I'm good with death and yet this is so profound that the loss of Lucy and telling my kids. We, after school, I was like, okay, today you're, we're gonna say bye to Lucy.

And then those few weeks after where I was really a mess and I just kept saying to them like, crying is okay. I'm feeling sad about Lucy. And I kept trying to say out loud every time I was feeling it. So that, to model for them, and I feel like I maybe was leading with trying to show them the healthy example of what it looks like, but not necessarily processing it all the way.

Do you have thoughts on that? For, this is all intermingled, right?

Laura Summers: Yeah.

Haley Radke: Thoughts on adoption grief. Oh yeah. And coming to terms with what we've lost. And actually processing that and not doing the spiritual bypassing kind of thing. And then as well, with this loss, like I said, I thought I'd be okay to talk about this today. I didn't know I had such big feelings and we're a year out and maybe this is what grief is gonna look like for me for a long time.

Laura Summers: I think what you're going through is, honestly, I know, I'm the queen of needing in my personal life, I'm certainly the queen of everything. I can hold it together. Let's keep it together. Especially as moms, right? Like we wanna do that around our kids. There's that expectation we put on ourselves, and I think society puts on us.

But I think, like I was saying, like grief, there's the quote, there's a quote from this book I told you about, and actually I got as a recommendation from our fellow adoptee, Lisa Olivera. She had this on her page. It's called The Wild Edge of Sorrow, and it's an incredible book. The subtitle is Rituals of Renewal and the Sacred Work of Grief. And it's by Francis Weller, who is himself a therapist and specializes in grief.

And one of the things that he talks about is when survivors aren't allowed sufficient time to grieve, however that looks like, the wounds can close too soon and they remain infected and never heal.

And I, yeah, to me, I'm like, uhhuh. Ding ding. What have we been expected to do our whole lives, is close that wound up, just take it in. And wounds need air, right? Wounds need time. Wounds need support to heal. And so much of the adoptee experience as it has been has for me is, you're on your own with this one.

Swallow it down, take care of it, pull up your bootstraps, whatever that looks like. And just, you need to be, just be okay. And I can understand as far as life goes, that there's some truth to that. That there are certain amounts of self-care that we wanna keep going and keep doing for ourselves.

But I think the reality is that grief, it's like a, it's like pressing pause on life for a lot of us, right? When we're in it, it's so all-encompassing. It can almost feel like another life. Sometimes. I think for some people it can, I know lead to depression and just really overtake them and we've pathologized that so much, right?

We've made that, there's something wrong with you. And I think the reality is, if we as a society and if we as a community at large, were better at making space for those, that deep, profound feeling of grief, it wouldn't need to be prolonged in the way that it is for a lot of us because we would feel safe and held by the people around us and we would've been given permission to feel.

And I actually love those rituals you were talking about, right? Like people were talking about, I sleep with the toy, or I collect the hair, or I watch the videos back over and over. I think that's part of that space that they're giving themselves that they probably haven't, many of them hadn't had in their life with that other first profound loss.

Haley Radke: It really did come across as these. Don't tell anybody I did this.

Laura Summers: Yeah.

Haley Radke: But this is something I did and it helped me feel better. I don't know if that'll help you. Yeah. It was there very much that vibe, like embarrassed and, yeah. I remember like googling, so I'm like, what do people do when their pets die?

What are some of the things? And one of the things we did as a family is we got like a memorial stone for Lucy. I'll show it to you. And yet I have not been able to put it in our yard. It just sits on our coffee table in the living room. And yeah it's one of those things where I'm like, oh, I know. I guess I have to wait for the next step. When will that be right to put it in the yard when I might not see it every day.

Do you have other thoughts or ideas of things that are rituals that we could do that are more, I don't know, it doesn't have to be formalized. But just some examples of ideas, things that people could could do that might help.

Laura Summers: Yeah, I think. Those memories are precious. I don't, I think a lot of times when we think about going back over memories with our pets that we've lost that some people can see it as perseverating or like you're drawing out that grief rather than it being seen as a ritual. And I think it should be seen as a sacred ritual for the memories or why they're part of us in every way and they were part of our pets and our relationship.

And so it's okay to go back through those photos and those videos and really remember what that felt like to have your pet with you and to honor that relationship. I think that's really important.

I think honestly, Haley. Crying is a ritual. It's not a fun one.

Haley Radke: I'm very good at that. Very good. Yeah, poster child.

Laura Summers: I think crying can be a ritual and just like the physical, acknowledging the physical feelings, the physical aspect of that pain. Crying probably by ourselves. Most of us are probably most comfortable crying alone. But also crying to people that we trust and like allowing someone else to hold that feeling with us can be a really important ritual, but also very difficult for most of us, I think. And I just think that can look like whatever, if there's a song or a music that reminds you of your pet, really listening to that.

And looking for, I think for me, the way I've thought about it, I've actually, okay. So I lost Penny two years later I ended up losing my dog Umma, and then last year I lost Gunner. So I lost three dogs in the span of five years. And that was a lot. And it doesn't get easier every time. It doesn't.

But I do think as I've gone through each of those experiences I've been reminded of that feeling that I was talking about when Penny passed, where it's like, just a knowing that I'm holding. And I'm not a religious person, so to me it's not connected to anything religious or organized in that way. To me, it's more, I just had this knowing that they're okay and they're safe, and I think for me, I noticed a difference between like staying in the pain part of grief versus honoring them.

There's a, there feels like a difference to me. So I look for that. I look for what is the ritual I can do to make me feel connected to them and reminded of that bond that we had, and that will look different for everyone, definitely for me, looking at pictures. I've kept, I haven't even been able to get rid of his, like food bin and stuff that we had in the laundry room. I can't do it. So I totally understand you not being able to move the rock. I can't do it.

Haley Radke: Oh okay. Here's my next, her baddest in the front hall closet.

Laura Summers: Yep. Yep. Yeah. And it's, that's where it belongs right now, right? I know for sure that the way that we feel doesn't stay the same, but anniversaries are hard.

Haley, you know that, right? Like you're so close to an anniversary right now, expect to be upset around an anniversary. That's just normal. That's part of the ritual of what that pet meant to you.

Haley Radke: So I think for a lot of people, after they lose a pet, one of the questions we'll get is, oh, are you gonna get another dog? Oh, are you gonna get another cat?

And I don't necessarily want to talk about that as a because I don't think it's per it shouldn't be prescriptive. Like you should definitely fill that void. No. Let's just do the grieving and not just skip over that.

Do you have thoughts on how to respond to those kinds of questions? Or thoughts on having another pet?

So you had multiple dogs, I think when your dogs passa, you still had somebody there. I don't know. Any thoughts on that, Laura?

Laura Summers: Yeah, so I actually did get another dog really soon after Umma died, and part of the reason, almost 90% of the reason I did that was because Gunner, who was still with us had never been alone. And I was really worried. He did not have the type of personality where he could be an only dog. I think some dogs are better at that than others. So I ended up like doing what you're not supposed to do, quote unquote, and getting a dog for my dog, which is what Winnie was originally.

And so it ended up working out really well. He lived until almost 12 and I really think that he, it extended his life and it's just. But I, it definitely didn't erase the pain and it may be provided a distraction from time to time, but in no way made things, I think easier. And I think that's something probably to keep in the back of your mind if you do wanna get another pet because you're having a hard time, that it may not take away that grief and pain for you in the way you might hope it would.

But yeah, you're right. There are so many different reasons to get another animal and we don't wanna assume we know what works for someone else, right? Depending on like where they're at in their life and what's going on. So I think that's such a personal thing and whatever bond you form with that new animal will be its own thing.

Haley Radke: I was looking up tips online for that and cuz truly as a family, we're not ready yet for another dog. But it's so funny when you Google like tips for the next dog and stuff, and one of the things was having this expectation that your next pet is going to be like your, the one that you lost.

And so they were talking about, get a dog that looks different or try a different breed. Breed or at least have different coloring or something. So you're not like naturally associating your beloved personality of the last one onto the new one. And I was like, oh, that's wise cuz we, they just can't be replaced.

I think that's another fear for getting another pet is oh, what if this one sucks compared to my last one?

Laura Summers: Yeah. Yeah.

Haley Radke: I'm laughing about that, but it's truly It is. That's real.

Laura Summers: It is. I think that's why I can understand like that not being ready feeling is probably associated with that desire, that natural desire that all of us have when we lose a pet that we want our pet to be, we wanna bring that pet back. Just miss them. And you want that connection again.

And I also see so many parallels here to adoption loss, right? And I think that sort of searching we do as adoptees, Tthatat first loss with our first families. We do searching without really formally searching. A lot of us. Where we, I've heard so many adoptee say, oh, I'm like looking at people's spaces and crowds and looking for similarities, and I think there's that part of grief, especially a prolonged grief that we hold, that we start doing those things without knowing we're doing them. And I know that we do that with our pets too.

I can speak for myself. I. I think there was a, there was something in me that was making my animals and still probably does almost like the, a physical form of the ch of my child's self. Like my younger, innocent self. And I couldn't, it's so hard, like when we talk about like parts work, right? Like in that internal family systems thing where we're, we are trying to acknowledge and talk to our younger selves.

For me, I think I had almost embodied my younger self in my dogs. And, but that sounds probably really woowoo right now. But there's just such an innocence to animals that I don't really know if I was allowed to have as a child because so much was happening around me and I had to grow up so fast. So my dog was a safe space for my inner child, I think, and really getting to see and hold and touch that, that part of myself and that innocence in a way that just felt really important and precious.

Haley Radke: I love thinking about that. That is, oh, that's such a gift. It's.

Laura Summers: Yeah.

Haley Radke: That's really special. When I was doing your, my Instagram deep dive of you and listening to your podcast and doing all. I saw this line that you wrote. You said: There is no ease in adoption. And I thought, oh yeah, that's really good.

And when you're talking about this intermingling of, disenfranchised grief with pets and adoption and how interconnected they are, I can really see the depth of pain. This would like, of course this would cause me a lot of pain. Of course it would cause you a lot of pain and our fellow adoptees who've gone through something similar.

I'm curious if you have thoughts on this. There's no ease in adoption because this building out connection with our furry friends I think comes with ease like and how amazing that connection is. What do you think?

Laura Summers: Yeah, I think when I was talking about ease and adoption, I, using that word, I was thinking about that larger system and narrative of adoption and that.

That this assumption, that adoption is a safe place for us as kids, and that it's a, it's a, an ending to the bad part, quote, unquote, of our stories. So many people assume we come into adoption as children in really terrible situations, and I, you've done incredible work on over the years of really trying to challenge that idea that, This isn't a like finality here, right?

Where people life keeps moving and really what we're talking about today, grief is not ever fully over. It's just not. And, but there's an expectation that it is. And so this idea that people think that adoption is like a solution really in any way, in any form is not true. And. Being adopted is not easy.

Any day of our lives, there is always something we're confronting and holding, and I think we get moments right. We get moments where we might get some ease, but the system of adoption and the narrative around adoption is not what provides that for us.

Haley Radke: Any nice things to say about pets?

Laura Summers: But pets can, pets do. Pets can provide some of that, right? Pets get to be an oasis, I think from the expectations that humans put on us, right? And. It's a chance to be who we are in our total, in that, in all its totality and not be who we're expected to be. They're literally excited when we go outside to take the trash out and come back in.

Like you said, there's not another person or thing in this world that I think it's that excited. Maybe my almost two year old, he's, he has some of that for me right now, but yeah, that's a, that. That's a gift that they give us.

Haley Radke: I remember in the last couple years of Lucy's life she had she was in pain, like she couldn't do the stairs. She couldn't jump up anymore, just elderly dog problems. And so I would just carry her from room to room because she still wanted to be where I was.

Laura Summers: Course.

Haley Radke: It didn't matter what I was doing, and all she was gonna do was sleep there. But yeah, the excitement she had still had to just like sleep by my feet. Great. Ugh, dogs are so special.

Laura Summers: They're the best.

Haley Radke: You know what cat people, you're welcome here too. That's fine.

Laura Summers: Absolutely. Cats can fulfill all of the things I think that we're talking about. For us for that too. They're just as special.

Haley Radke: My son Griffin loves cats and he would love it if we were a cat family. So anyway. Do you have any last thoughts on this for us before we do some recommended resource?

Laura Summers: I think I just want people to know adoptees, especially to know that it's okay if you don't feel okay. It's okay if it still hurts a year, five years, 10 years down the road. That's not something you're doing wrong, and your grief is part of what's connecting you to this world, even if it's hard. It's a, it's an important reminder of how loved you are as a person, I think, and how loved your pet was. I think grief in a way can really be a connecting point for us.

Haley Radke: Do you have a funny story about any of your dogs?

Laura Summers: Oh man, I have so many. Okay, so Penny, cuz she was really my first dog. I like to refer to her as, oh, like Mick Jagger in dog form. She was just a rock, like a rock star She lived really hard. She partied a lot, the first month I had her, she was a really good jumper cuz Jack Russells usually are. She jumped onto my counter and ate an entire bag of chocolate chips.

It was about 16 ounces and lived to tell the tail. Let's see. She could climb trees, so that was fun. I've actually now had two dogs that can climb trees. Winnie is the other one. So that's been, that was scary at times. We would have 30, a dog, 30 feet in the air trying to get her. Yeah, actually that's a funny Winnie story.

So in our previous home in Texas, we had a live oak tree, which if you've ever seen them, the branches come down as they get bigger. So it meant made for a really great climbing tree. And I was pregnant with my son at the time and she decided it was a great day to go get the squirrels living up there and climbed 30 feet in the air.

And I actually had to call the fire department to come get her because I couldn't get her down. So the fire department comes into my backyard with their cell phones out filming this thing, and one of them said, we don't come for cats anymore because we just tell people cats will come down eventually, they'll be fine. But we've never really gotten a call for getting a dog out of a tree.

So I came and they got the ladder up and she was terrified. She was just like frozen up there. And the second this buff, cute firefighter had her in her arms, her little tail started wagging. She was so happy. She got rescued.

Haley Radke: Oh my gosh, that's amazing. Amazing. Okay. My story about Lucy, she was very much a princess dog. If it was raining or snowing, Did not wanna go outside. I live in Canada, Laura, and it is raining today in reflection of this mood of our conversation. And if it wasn't this, it's snowing. So I remember when she was maybe like a year old and she just struggled going out in the snow. And so I bought her those little booties, so to cover her little princess feet. And the first time we put the booties on, it was like, I'm sure you've seen videos of this on Instagram or TikTok where they walk like a new baby deer and they don't know what to do with their legs. She, her legs are going up every which way. Oh my gosh. It was so amazing. I love that. Yeah. I'll never forget that.

Laura Summers: That's the best. It's like they're swimming on land.

Haley Radke: Yes, exactly. Exactly. Oh dear. Oh, furry friends. Okay. What do you wanna recommend to us today?

Laura Summers: Yeah, so that book I talked about is incredible, The Wild Edge of Sorrow. If you want to read more about, I think Disenfranchised Grief, there's another book that I think has been recommended before on your podcast, Ambiguous Loss, which is another really great resource for like a different way to think about loss and grief. In particular when it relates to adoption and also pet loss like we talked about. They can be both disenfranchised in that way. So that's a really, another really great book.

Yeah, and just your podcast, Haley. Like not feeling alone in these feelings. Looking for other people that might share, that get it, that understand this. Those people are precious as you know in your life. And so important.

Haley Radke: Absolutely. Community is where it's at. And speaking of you and Katie Gagel started your own podcast, Adopting Wellness, and I love how you're really sharing the real, just like you did today.

But it's so nice to hear people just saying yeah, this is my goal. Yeah, I didn't need it. This part was hard. I'm trying, really trying to work on this, you're just like very real. So I love that. In your first episode with a guest you were talking about organization and how that works for you or doesn't work for you.

And I love the premise of your podcast, talking about seeking out wellness and that it's, I don't know, you know how people are just like, I need to do this, and this, and then everything will be great. We just never come to that point. Exactly. If only, so I love this. I think we share this idea of; we're always moving, hopefully in the direction of mental wellness and whatever that looks like in our own lives. And I think you and Katie do a really good job of helping push us forward just a little bit in a very healthy, normal sort of way, and not making outrageous claims of, here, this is gonna fix you.

Laura Summers: No, for sure. We don't have the answers. We're just wanting to remind people that everyone's human and we're really just, all we can do is do our best and try. And I think that even just getting to that place, Haley, is so hard. It's so hard to get to a place where we even want to, or can feel like we can take care of ourselves.

And It sounds really cheesy, but like honoring the journey, like for real. Like really just trying to be there in it and not be somewhere else, which a lot of us spend so much of our lives trying to escape and just be someone or anywhere else than where we are.

Haley Radke: Yep. I really appreciate that, being real. That's the good stuff. Okay. Where can we connect with you and where can we find your new podcast?

Laura Summers: Yeah, so I, my personal account on Instagram is public and I share writing and other things related to that. And it's, LauraIsALot on Instagram.

Haley Radke: And pet pictures.

Laura Summers: Yep. And lots of pet pictures If you are into that. And I, my professional website where you can connect with me as an adoptee therapist is LauraSummersLMFT.com and Katie and I's instagram for the podcast is AdoptingWellnesspod on Instagram.

I love connecting with other adoptees. I truly value community. And Haley, I just wanna thank you so much for that community that you've built and being such a trailblazer in the podcasting community for adoptees and helping us find each other. So thank you for that.

Haley Radke: Thank you so much. Thanks for holding my hand today. Oh, virtually.

Laura Summers: Right there with ya. I'm with ya.

Haley Radke: Alright. Was so good to talk with you and I hope I get to pet your dog someday.

Laura Summers: Yes. Same. I hope I get to see if your family gets a new dog. I hope we all get to celebrate in that with you and watch that new relationship.

Haley Radke: Imagine.

Laura Summers: Imagine.

Haley Radke: The dog content.

Laura Summers: It will be so great.

Haley Radke: Yes. Thank you.

(Upbeat Music)

Haley Radke: I didn't know if I was gonna make it through that conversation, even recording my introduction for you today. Writing it, I was fine. Fine. And then when I went to record, I was like, oh no, am I gonna cry again? It just. I don't know. I hope it helps someone, maybe you if you know that I still am so deeply sad about losing Lucy and it's okay.

I think I am gonna be like this for a while and I've had some really lovely coincidental maybe experiences with neighborhood dogs lately that have brought me so much joy and I feel really lucky to still get to engage with dogs here and there through my day. Even just walking to and from school with my kids and I don't know.

I take those moments and I think. I'm thankful for those joyful moments and I think back to Lucy often and how much joy she brought our family. And so I hope that being this raw with you will yeah. Let you know that it's okay if you're still sad that your cat died five years ago and if you're still, if you still have your dog's toys from seven years ago or whatever you felt like this was a weird thing. It's just a normal thing. Yeah. I hope you know you're not alone.

Anyway, I am thankful for our community. And I'm thankful to each one of you who messaged me what I was like in bed four days and told me about all the quirky things that you have done to feel nearer to your dear ones.

And I I really appreciated that and continue to appreciate that. So thank you.

I also wanna give a quick. We have raised to this point, I think $2,000 towards our goal of $20,000 for the transcription project of the entire back catalog of Adoptees On. And so if you wanna participate in that program or know a little bit more about it, You can go to adopteeson.com/donate and see where we are today.

Maybe we're a little bit higher than that when you listen to this, but I wanna thank all the donors who've already given generously. I really appreciate it, and I know having adoptees on episodes like this one more accessible for many adoptees will be really helpful. So thank you.

Adopteeson.com/donate for the transcription project.

Adopteeson.com/partner, if you wanna sign up for monthly giving and join us for our live book clubs and other fun events. We would love to have you over there. Thank you so much for listening. Let's talk again next Friday.

249 Angela Tucker

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/249

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Haley: This podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing stated on it either by its hosts or any guests, is to be construed as psychological, medical, or legal advice.

You are listening to adoptees on the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. I'm Haley Radke. Today's guest is Angela Tucker, one of the most well-known, adopted people in our community, subject of the documentary Closure, now turned author of You Should Be Grateful: Stories of Race, Identity and Transracial Adoption.

Angela shares about her time as a caseworker in private adoption and about the difficulties of balancing the Tightrope Act of critiquing adoption, and still being invited back into adoption spaces. We also chat about how the subject of adoption shows up in Hollywood storylines is slowly evolving.

Before we get started, I wanted to invite you to join our Patreon adoptee community today over on adopteeson.com/community, which helps support you and also the show to support more adoptees around the world. We wrap up with some recommended resources for you, and as always, links to everything we'll be talking about today are on the website, Adopteeson.com.

If you are a first time listener, welcome, glad to have you with us. We elevate adoptee voices in this space. It is our soul focus, and so I hope you feel seen and understood and have at least one or two takeaways where you can feel validated and like. You belong because you do. Let's listen in.

I'm so pleased to welcome to Adoptees On, Angela Tucker. Hello, Angela.

Angela Tucker: Hi, Haley.

Haley: I know this isn't the first time we've talked, but it is the first time you're on the show. How is that possible?

Angela Tucker: It's really wild.

Haley: Yeah. Well, why don't we start how we always do. Do you share a little bit of your story with us?

Angela Tucker: Sure. I would be glad to. I also kind of irk at the phrase, "share your story" because I think it kind of feels like adoptees are placed in a binary when we're asked. I know you asked this of all your guests, and it's not a critique on that, but it's, it's this strange pressure that I automatically feel to like entertain by sharing my story.

Resisting the urge to entertain just the cut and dry facts are that I was adopted from foster care from the state of Tennessee to Washington State. Adopted into a large family. My parents adopted several children and multi- race family. My parents are white, I'm Black. My siblings are, some are Black white, Asian, and my parents had one biological daughter.

I was in a closed adoption, and it was just about 10 years ago, a little more than a decade ago, that I found my biological family, which was a thrill, and that is all documented in my documentary called Closure, which is available and, it was originally, the intent was just to gather home video footage for myself in moments when I wasn't sure that I'd ever get the opportunity again.

So I thought if this was the first and last time that I'd ever seen my birth mother, I wanted it on camera. So he captured it. But at the time, I was also working as an adoption case worker for private domestic adoptions, and I was finding that a lot of my clients were afraid of the very thing that I was going through.

So a lot of my clients would say things like, we wanna adopt a newborn baby and give them the best life possible. We don't really feel like they need to know their biological family, cuz we're gonna give them everything they need. And so I was like, oh, you know, why don't I share with my clients that I'm adopted?

I have wonderful adoptive parents and that was not enough. And if I could show them some clips of this video where perhaps they could see themselves in my parents and see their future child in me, that it might lead to them choosing openness for the future adoption of their child. So with that, we decided to make this home video footage into something a little more presentable. And we're just shocked and floored when Netflix and Hulu and iTunes called wanting to put it on their platforms. It was just all a great surprise.

Haley: I, I've seen you say the title Closure was your goal at the start of your search. And I can anticipate that lots of folks, especially outside of the adoption world, would see that title and come to the point that, oh yeah, you have closure now.

So can you speak to that a little bit? Do you have closure now?

Angela Tucker: Is everything all wrapped up tidy in a bow. No. But yeah, my outset at the outset, not just of making this film, but for my entire life of wondering who my birth parents were and where they were, I thought, yes, at the moment I met them, I would feel complete like a puzzle, missing puzzle piece just snapped together.

And of course, that's not how it works. I did gain an immeasurable amount of confidence and kind of self-esteem, less fractured identity, when I met my biological family. But I was surprised when my birth mother couldn't tell me the details that I thought she would just have.

And so it, that experience kind of helped me realize that she is a human being that has undergone so much trauma that has made it tough for her to remember all of the details when she gave birth to me. And I think that's really a, a lovely point, you know, to, to understand that not only did I not get closure, but that concept is unattainable for even the best of us because we're humans.

So probably to give a an example of that, I thought for sure that I would be able to meet my biological mother and ask her, what time did you go to the hospital? Did your water break? What was that like? Who took you to the hospital? I was kind of centered on those facts and those experiences that I wanted to know right away and she can't remember.

She doesn't know. And so that assumption that I had was quickly replaced with, I think, more empathy about, you know, why would she want to commit that to memory, and what a great survival skill for her to kind of wipe that out if she's not gonna have the privilege of being able to know me and see me grow up, you know.

So I don't have closure, but in a sense I have something better, which is a humanizing of all the people in my biological family, and that's quite wonderful too.

Haley: I think there's a stereotype for a lot of us that our biological parents were you know, could be what teens or, you know, impoverished or struggling with drug addiction or, you know, there's, there's the stigma around biological parents and for a lot of adopted people, that is absolutely a fallacy. It's not true.

Now, in your case, you discover and you share in your new book, You Should Be Grateful, which is, we'll talk a little bit about as well. But I wanna make sure people know the title. So you share in the documentary and as well as in your book when you are searching and you do find out these pieces that your, both parents are in a position of poverty and houselessness. When you found those things out and, and through the years, how have you processed those pieces of information?

You know, I've talked to adoptees before who are, you know, find out the nature of their conception can sometimes be upsetting and having to kind of go through that. So how has that been for you, understanding that, and what would you say to fellow adoptees who do find out that, that those are the circumstances of, the reason for relinquishment?

Angela Tucker: For me, getting a better understanding of my biological, both sides of my biological family's, like socioeconomic status has, I think it catapulted me into thinking more about the history of the United States, the history of Black people in the South specifically, which is where my biological families are from.

I think it's always important to remember that there's not a single adoption that isn't complex. You know, I think sometimes we tend to compare traumas and, you know, your story was harder than mine or that kind of thing. And I think in general, there's not a single adoption story that is easy, or if it is, perhaps an adoption should not have happened in the first place.

But for me, thinking, trying to understand why I needed to be adopted with just the information that I had, which was that my birth mother struggled with homelessness, my birth father as well, it made me think about, you know, mass incarceration of the 1980s and nineties when Hillary Clinton called Black men super predators.

And I think about that because that really led to kind of the demise of Black families staying together. I couldn't help but think about the Jim Crow era. I couldn't help but think about redlining and how all of those like policies and practices that we did in the US in the south led to people like my biological mother not being able to have stability in their lives and therefore leading to not being able to raise their children. Not having a home.

Part of this I think, is really important to think about the ways that our history, for me, Black history impacts my transracial adoption. I think a sliver of it is also a bit of an excuse because, or perhaps a denial, instead of a possibility that perhaps my biological mother simply didn't want to parent me.

That could be the case, but I, instead of facing that really deep sadness, I like to think about her lack of choice as a result of laws, policies, within the United States.

Haley: I heard you share, and I think you comment on it on your book as well about how Deborah says like, you know, you went out one side and, and were adopted and whatever, and where are the resources for her? You know, after giving birth unhoused and like, where's my supports?

Angela Tucker: Yeah. It was so sad to hear her say that she said, to me when I've talked with her on the phone and in different ways, she has said, you know, right after you were born, everyone mobilized to make sure that you were okay. But I walked out of the hospital and was homeless that night, you know? And I was just like, oh, isn't that the truth?

And I write in my book about how social work, social workers initially did care about pregnant women. But there was a point in which that switched and pregnant women who didn't have resources became the villains and the children, the unborn children or the newborn children, became what we all looked at to save.

It makes me so sad. I know I've experienced that in my own work. I remember when we had, I was working at a foster care agency and there was a call from CPS who had found a child at a homeless encampment in Seattle. And everybody was racing around trying to find a home for this child, and there was not a word said about the parents who were also in that homeless encampment, also needed, of course, stability.

But I remember thinking like, how long are we all gonna have case management meetings about this child without having anyone mention the fact that their parents are there too. You know, I think our society really loves to, to save a child. And who pays for that? Biological parents. And then they are looked at quizzically when they might bring that up, you know?

Haley: Yeah, there are so many issues in adoption and, and that is one of the most puzzling things to me. Like, just not even thinking, doesn't even occur to them, like to support the parent.

Angela Tucker: No.

Haley: This is just ridiculous.

Angela Tucker: Right. And I found myself taking a little bit more like drastic measures when I was working at an adoption agency trying to implore prospective adoptive parents to think about the biological parents as more than just surrogates. I would say things like, have you thought about your child's biological mother getting care for when she has breast milk coming in but no baby to feed? And that to me felt like I was pushing really hard, like being obnoxious, but I had felt like I had said in so many other ways: what about birth parents?

When you, cuz some of the families would say like, you know, this is gonna be a really intense time. Having a newborn is so overwhelming. We're gonna be up all night, sleepless nights. And so in so many different ways I would ask the parents to consider the biological mother and what they're doing. And it just didn't work.

And so I found that I was finally just like being really brash and thinking about. Okay. Don't forget that she is producing milk. And what does that do when there's no baby to feed? It gets hard. And what do, what do you do if you don't have a doctor there to teach you how to alleviate that pressure and pain?

You know, I felt like I just had to walk people step by step in order to produce any sort of empathy for this position, and that is really aggravating.

Haley: Yeah. No kidding. I bet. What was it like for you as an adopted person to work at a private agency and you, you made several, you know, career choices along the way with which adoption, part of adoption you were working with. What was that like? The, the private agency and literally talking with mothers and then prospective parents and, ooh.

Angela Tucker: Very complicated. I think I chose to work at an adoption agency largely... this is right out of undergraduate, but I think my initial hope was to learn more about the home study process, and it was a little bit selfish, like I wanted to learn what exactly do parents have to do in order to adopt a child?

And so writing a home study was really helpful for me to gain that understanding. My parents had been really honest and open about their processes for each of their children, but it's a little bit different because they adopted through foster care. With private adoption the home studies are very expensive, and so that leads to a lot of the perspective adopters feeling a sense of entitlement that the home study is written in a certain way and at a certain pace. And that felt pretty odd to me.

It was hard to go from a meeting with a pregnant woman who was trying to figure out what to do, to a glistening, shiny humongous home where they had baked me fresh cookies upon arrival. It was such a whiplash of socioeconomic clashing, and I knew that I was right in the middle of this arrangement, and that was pretty tough.

Part of the home study is also a lot of interviewing of the parents of whomever lives in the home. And during those interviews, it was tricky to hear parents talk about what they did and didn't want in a child or even in a biological mother.

They wanted to be able to name the child and they didn't want the first parents to do that. Or they wanted to make sure that there were no cigarettes smoked from month three on or just different qualifications. And for me, being somebody who was in foster care for a long time because people did not want a Black child, they did not want a child with special needs, which when I was born, there was a whole host of disabilities that I was perhaps going to have and.

So I, I ended up talking to some of my clients to say like, okay, I know that you're, you say that you're not interested in this, that, and the other. And I just wanna disclose that that was me. And some of them who didn't know I was adopted would just look sideways at me. Like, wait, you were exposed to all these drugs in utero and look like this and do this today. And I said that not to make anyone change their mind, but it felt like I had to stand up for my own little baby self at the time or something like that. It was pretty tricky to wear both hats.

Haley: I can imagine. You know, so many of us have watched your documentary. We have seen you share your life on social and in various, you know, media opportunities over the years, and knowing that you had this job right out of university, getting your degree in psychology, I'm curious, over the last, you know, however many years, not to age ourselves, but how your perspective on adoption has changed and morphed over your interactions with adoptees and prospective parents and all, all, all of those kinds of things.

Angela Tucker: Oh, how can I count the ways. There's so much. I mean, I know on your show you've chatted with a lot of guests about the issues within the adoption system, specifically international adoptions, but child welfare as well.

One of the big things though, that I have taken to my career to this point is to try to amplify adoptee voices. Exactly what you do. But it was so clear to me that within agencies, within child welfare, even at the courts, this concept of adult adoptees was lost on people. This, this idea that there are people who have lived this experience that can talk to you about it, was rarely considered. People really when they thought of adoption, they thought children and babies that need an adult to come in and speak on their behalf.

And that was a little bit flabbergasting to me, to realize that adult adoptees were not, not only not asked to be part of the conversation, but if and when we were, it was seen as kind of an asterisks. Like an extra. And then if an adoptee is speaking to any of the places I was in, a courtroom or to executive directors of different agencies, their stories were often, whatever their stories were, it was always an, oh, that's their story. This one is, most adoptions are different.

So whether the adoptee was sharing, you know, positive experience of their upbringing or challenging or mix of both, people typically responded by saying, that's a one-off. That really made me stop and try to think about how I wanted to frame my practice and my work.

Haley: Can you talk about bringing that to some of the opportunities you've had for consulting on This Is Us and the Jagged Little Pill musical, and how you're trying to expand that conversation to include adult adoptee voices?

Angela Tucker: Yeah. It's so thrilling that media is really invested in getting the stories right. I'm so excited about that. I, I heard from the directors of Jagged Little Pill, which was a, a show on Broadway. Right now it's touring and the main character is a transracial adoptee. And the screenwriter is Diablo Cody, who wrote Juno, and so she has had previous experience writing about adoption and...

Haley: Just sorry, you said Juno and I was like, ouch. Oh boy. That's that. That movie has so many activating things for a lot of us, honestly. So I hope you say something about that. Go on .

Angela Tucker: Okay. Diablo Cody, much like many folks who wrote about adoption perhaps in the nineties, early two thousands, would say that they had a pretty one-sided perspective. In fact, I was recently interviewed by a journalist for the New Yorker, and she had previously written about adoption within the New Yorker. It was back in 2014.

She wrote a story about a family who adopted 20 kids and had two biologically. And her story was all about the parents. How did you do it? Why did you do it? How did it work? Nothing about the 20 adoptees and what their experience might have been growing up in a family like that.

So when she reached out to me this year, 2023, almost 10 years after that piece, she said, I don't regret the piece that I wrote previously, but I've learned a lot since then. And I want to write another story that centers adoptee voices, because honestly, I hadn't thought about those adoptees when I wrote that piece.

So the, the, the saviorism aspect is I think is slowly dying in media. And I'm really grateful that people are starting to see that that isn't everything. Adoption is not just about the people who take us. Oh, thank goodness for them taking us, but it's like, what is our experience? So that was the case for Jagged Little Pill where they brought me in and said, we just want you to work with the main actor.

And actually, I worked with the whole cast and crew to teach them about the adoptees experience in, for both, This Is Us and Jagged Little Pill, transracial adoptive families.

One place that I start when I'm working with media is to ask them if they've ever considered why transracial adoption is so synonymous with white parents and Black and brown kids. And most of the time people are like, I've never thought of that. Like, of course it's transracial adoption looks that way. And I say, well, why is that? Why would it be unfamiliar familiar to see a Black couple with a white child? And that question often leads into great discussions about white saviorism, white privilege and, and how that plays a part in child welfare.

So that's, that feels like a really exciting win for me when that starts to happen because then they are very likely to weave stories of whiteness into their shows in a way that is honest. That honestly had not been discussed before.

Haley: I, I hope you're right, that it's slowly dying. May, let's hasten the dying of those tropes, please.

Angela Tucker: There are a lot of us working on that. I do think that social media has evened the playing field, thankfully, that through TikTok, through, instagram, Facebook, Twitter podcast, that adoptee voices are getting out there.

Haley: I hope so. Hopefully this is a piece of it, right? Sharing our real honest feelings. And I'm, I'm curious, I have, I have a quote written down from your book I wanna read to you, and then I have just like a follow up question.

This is really about balancing this line of who we want to hear this message. Who can change the societal narrative and how do you get invited back if you're talking critically about adoption? Okay, so this is from your book. You say:

"Speaking to large crowds, meet and greets and such are my bread and butter. I feel at ease in a big crowd. Happy to glitter amid an admiring and enthusiastic audience."

So how do you balance these feelings of being critical of adoption, hoping for change, broadening the conversation about family preservation and being invited back to these events where a large majority of the audience are likely white adoptive parents.

Angela Tucker: I smile so big. Make sure my teeth are freaking white. I'm saying that kind of in jest. It's kind of a joke, but it's really not because I know that as a Black woman, if I don't couple a my humongous smile, which is such an asset, thank thanks to my biological dad. I now know where I got it from. Yay. But, if I don't offer my big smile with a statement like transracial adoption might be cultural genocide, then people will run for the hills.

But if I do both, I have been able, successfully to, to get people to stay and invite me back. It's internally the strangest gymnastics that's happening because I understand that I represent, on stage, that I sometimes am so tokenized as like the pillar of what some of these parents want their child to become.

And I also understand that I will not allow that sort of racism and disgusting projectionism to continue. And then, like you said, I, I don't want to be cast out. I've seen too many adoptees not invited to the same spaces that I'm invited to, and they are fully qualified. As qualified as I am, but because they perhaps aren't using, they, maybe they aren't as bright skinned as I am, they're darker, and that therefore that is threatening because of colorism.

Or maybe they aren't, they haven't perfected the art of like entertaining throughout trying to educate. I think about Colin Kaepernick's film, which was really a work of edutainment and how that worked on some, but not on others. I feel like I, I have accepted that role, which means that I can't be completely blunt.

It means that I have to avoid becoming the "angry adoptee", which I hate that phrase, but I know that when people see me that way, they go for the hills. I also use different strategies to try to decrease the tension and around race. Like there are so many selective attention tests online that I use.

They have nothing to do with race, but I use to talk about, how all of us have implicit biases, whether we like it or not, and these selective attention tests help us understand that it's not a, it's not a good or bad thing, but it's more what we've been conditioned to see or not to see. I feel like that helps people feel a little sense of calm, like I'm not calling them out specifically, and that allows them to take in the message a little bit more.

Although it, it is what has led me to create this new workshop, which I call cultivating an anti-racist network for transracial adoptive families. This is a workshop where I'm talking about racial norms within the United States, how to handle race related adoption microaggressions, and talk about the history of transracial adoption.

So I'm talking about the Indian Child Welfare Act and the Multiethnic Placement Act and all of these things, but I'm doing it with just a couple and whoever they've invited to this Zoom session. So their neighbors, their parents, their good friends, their kids' doctors, their kids' teachers. All people who are like in their community.

I've done that because it seems like when I speak to large groups and I'm doing all that tightrope walking, people may hear me and but oftentimes they leave by saying like, wow, you really sparked my interest in learning more about X, Y, Z, or that was really fascinating. I'd never thought about race in that way or whatever. But rarely do I hear people in large groups say, I'm gonna make a personal change in my life.

And so I was like, okay, something's missing. So doing this workshop with the family unit on Zoom, I'm able to use photos of their child. We're able to use that child's name. And I feel like that's the difference where people are starting to see in that session. Like, oh, there's 80 of us here in the Zoom.

We all love Johnny, and wow, we're all white. Or maybe there's one person of color in our network, but I can't believe it. And that alone, that picture helps them understand that they are part of this system. They are not separate from it. And that's the, that's what oftentimes gets lost in the, the big groups.

So I, I kind of have to like shift my goal. I guess in answer to your question when I'm speaking to large groups. And my goal is to not be seen as a token. It's to create some additional conversation that perhaps they weren't having before. But I don't feel like I can have that micro level impact in those settings that I can after I've developed trust with a couple and they bring me into their whole family network.

Haley: I love that you're doing that because I, I, I've wondered right, how many times do people need to hear from an adoptee's perspective before their mind is really changed to see the complexities of adoption.

Angela Tucker: Yeah. Yeah. I have wondered that for so long. And that is exactly why this is my result. It's also interesting to see the, the people, the parents who will attend all the public events on adoption, but won't do this, do mine. You know, and I'm like, I think that's telling.

Haley: No one's gonna see me . I'll just say, I'll say, right, it's a little bit of...

Angela Tucker: Well, a little virtue signaling, you know, look where I went. I did this thing, I attended this town hall event and I listened, or I bought this book and that isn't good enough. Let's talk about your child.

Haley: To prepare for this interview, I re-watched all the things. I re-listened to all the things. I watched the Red Table talk again, help me. I look through comments on your YouTube videos and in straddling this line, which let me tell you, I'm all the way on the other side of the line. I just, I don't have time. I, I can't, but my, but I ...

Angela Tucker: yeah.

Haley: I have a privilege in that I could say whatever I want on my podcast, and I'm not waiting. I don't, I'm not looking to do conferences or, you know, that's just not my calling. Yeah. So that's why, yeah, I just say whatever, and I totally understand.

Angela Tucker: I'm so thankful that you can say what I often hold back. You and so many others. That's great. For me, it's definitely like, I see this family has this child and I want a different life for that child, and so I'll play the game.

Haley: I get it. I get, yes. And you have, you've already explained kind of why, like, so for folks that are like, why don't you, you've, you've already said. When I was looking through the comments. Holy moly. Okay. "Remember, family is heart not blood." Come on.

Angela Tucker: I have, okay, so just to, just to interrupt you real quick. This might be new to me, whatever you tell me right now, because I had for a long time a little print on my wall that I framed that said, 'Do not read the comments.' So.

Haley: I'm glad it might be news. No.

Angela Tucker: Tell me what it, tell me what people are saying.

Haley: It's not, these are not news. None. None of these things are gonna surprise you.

"Remember, family is heart, not blood."

"You're so blessed to have so many people that love you"

And I could go on, but I, I know people say these things to you after your speeches as well. You share about really some yikes moments in your book about that as well, but I'm, I don't know how you deal with those things. And also you have expressed, "I am grateful. I do love my adoptive parents". Like you, you have the both and, and you're living it out and you share that enclosure and et cetera, right? So, Yikes. How do you take care of yourself in processing those things and not being held up as, you know, from, from on my side of the fence, angry adoptee and on adoptive parent's side of the fence...

Angela Tucker: What what...

Haley: Right? How do you take care of that?

Angela Tucker: I think I use a therapist approach where, when I get comments in my brain, I, I think this isn't about me.

Haley: Mm-hmm.

Angela Tucker: You know, if you're so angry that I haven't shown my adoptive parents enough public gratitude for quote, what they did, I am curious immediately about them and what's lacking. I think a lot, some of that is defensive denial perhaps, I think a lot of it is the, that's the protectant protection I need to put around myself, so I don't, I'm not completely debilitated. I think it's also research for me. Like that is one great way to continue to understand what societal messaging is on this is to, to try to listen to what people are saying.

I also take a bath every Sunday night without fail. That is the most glamorous bath ever. I mean, I have all the products. I have my little laptop in there, so I watch whatever I want. It's not a bath to clean myself. It is just a bath for pure relaxation. And I look forward to that Sunday night bath. You know, I have a few other things that really help.

I have some really good friends who, who can keep me balanced. I know after some of the bigger media spots, like Red Table Talk was one, I had a, a little team, a little committee who shielded me from the comments. They went through my, my Instagram, they went through my emails, they went through my Twitter and deleted stuff. Or I did want to know a few things and so they, they picked and chose certain things to tell me.

I know when those moments are coming, you know, I know if I've said something really controversial or if I've been edited in a way that makes me sound aloof or foolish that it's coming. And so I'm, thankfully, I have a, a great team that keeps me a little bit insulated from that. So I can just focus on the content, which is, which is really what I wanna do for evermore.

I don't see an end, but it gets pretty cloudy and it's hard to continue to focus on the content when there's such loud noise, and I really wanna focus on the content. And by content what I mean is a few of my focuses are one, that I feel like white adoptive parents need to outsource some of their parenting duties if they're, if they have a Black or brown child. So I'm continuously focused on that point, which means trying to learn about what it is that makes racial mirroring so important, like physiologically to us. Why do we need it?

I'm focused on trying to learn about collectivist societies and how children in those communities are, because I don't feel like the nuclear family model works in adoption. That's, you know, one step outside of that is, is promoting openness, but that's just like a baby step. It's really what I would really rather see is families really working together. I don't often understand why we need to terminate parental rights for a child to grow up safe, healthy, and happy. And so kind of doing a lot of research and thinking and reading about those two specific things. And I, I find that I can't do that if I'm going too far down the rabbit hole of, of comments that might be really hurtful, nasty, and, and rude.

Haley: I loved how you share in your book about playing piano as well as one of your joys and yeah.

Angela Tucker: Yes. Yeah. I love my piano. I love being able to sit there and, and just kind of float into another space. I, I, my house is pretty Zen sanctuary like. It is really calm. It's clean and, and for a specific reason. It's, my head is it's pretty loud. And so when I can do things like the bath and the piano, it is really lovely for me.

Haley: Thank you for sharing that. I know that there are a lot of folks that listen that want to be in advocacy work in some way, but it just can seem scary when we read some of those comments and just wonder like, how do people deal? So I appreciate you sharing that.

I, of course, am gonna recommend your brand new book, you Should Be Grateful: Stories of Race, identity, and Transracial Adoption. Oh my God, great title. Holy moly.

Angela Tucker: Yay. Thank you.

Haley: And the cover is so beautiful.

Angela Tucker: Yes, thank you.

Haley: I read it in one day. I really enjoyed getting to know more about you beyond the social media posts and all of that. I really loved hearing about your adoptee lounge participants and knowing younger adoptees are able to talk. And have an opportunity to talk openly about their adoption experiences more than my generation did. It feels like there's some semblance of improvement happening for adoptees. We're just so excited to have another adoptee authored work in the world.

Yes, please.

Angela Tucker: There's a lot this year. There's a lot coming out. Yes. From adoptees in terms of books. It's gonna be a great year for adoptees.

Haley: Absolutely. So as the adoptee community, we know. Okay, so ordering adoptee author books, giving a great review is really helpful. Is there anything else that you're hoping that the Adoptee community does to show up for you for your book.

Angela Tucker: My hope is really that the book reaches outside of the adoption world, and so I, I hope that the title, You Should Be Grateful, prompts, discussions from people within the adoption world to those they are in community with who may not have ever thought about adoption.

It is, I hope that it can be an entry point to broaden the conversation. I still feel like we are on that periphery, and one way I think that we can make our stories and our experiences a little more mainstream would be to talk to someone who you don't think even thinks about adoption. I mean, I, I, this became evident to me during the Trump presidency when everyone was up in arms about kids being locked in cages at the border, and there was a lot of chatter.

It was, it was heated there were news anchors with tears in their eyes that couldn't believe that parents had to go days and days and days on end without knowing where their kid was or seeing them. And in the small silo of hashtag adoptee Twitter, we all saw the parallels. I was wishing that there could be some crossover for mainstream media to see this practice actually happens here every day, not just at the Mexico US border, not just with people who are trying to migrate. Here is our very own United States citizens are, don't know where their kids. Can't get access and vice versa. We can't find our parents and are told we're crazy for wanting to.

So I feel like if people can share this book with someone who they think doesn't have any connection to adoption, that would be really exciting for me.

Haley: Great. I know we will show up for you. So what did you wanna recommend to us today?

Angela Tucker: There's a post by Robert Ballard who talks about this concept of narrative burden, and it's a short article that I know you'll put in the show notes. And I love it because I think people don't always understand why it might be kind of an adoption microaggression to ask an adoptee, like, where were you adopted from or how did you get here? Why are you here in this family?

Those kinds of questions create this narrative burden for adoptees. It makes us, makes our personal narrative kind of like a burden that we have to carry. And in a split section, second, we have to think, am I gonna supply like a migration narrative to some random stranger to help them understand why I'm here? Or do I somehow politely, like with a huge smile, say, oh, I don't wanna share my story publicly and risk them thinking we are terribly unkind. You know, I, I think this article does a great job of explaining that burden and perhaps might have just everyday conversations be a little bit different.

Haley: Yeah. Wonderful. I will absolutely link to that in the show notes and it, I think it really mm-hmm. , it does what you say, and gives people back a choice, right? Like you might not feel like you had a choice to answer that or not, but Yeah.

Angela Tucker: Yes. Give back agency for an adoptee. Yeah. That our stories aren't automatically fodder for everybody else because they're curious. We don't have to satiate everyone's curiosity. It can be really hard because so many adoptees are people pleasers by nature because, well, I'll say by nurture because of being adopted.

Haley: Oh my God, that's good.

Angela Tucker: And so it's really tough to say, I don't want to share that, but how great it feels when we can all of a sudden feel totally in control of our story, who we tell it to, how we share it. And that's a lot of the work that's happening in the adoptee lounges with young kids as for me, as young as 12 and, I'm thrilled to see a new generation of adoptees who perhaps will feel more in control.

Haley: Wonderful. Tell us where we can connect with you online and find your book.

Angela Tucker: Yes, I am at Angie Adoptee on Instagram.

My website is angelatucker.com. My book is there on my website and I dabble in Twitter and Facebook, but really if you wanna get me an email through my website or a note on Instagram is best.

Haley: Wonderful. Thank you so much for sharing with us today and challenging us. Appreciate your work and congratulations on You Should Be Grateful.

Angela Tucker: Thank you. Thank you for having me, Haley. I'm just so thankful for your work in this community as well.

Haley: I love celebrating another adoptee authored work in the world. If you want to read some adoptee authored books in community with other adopted people, join our book club. Adopteeson.com/bookclub has details of the books we're reading in 2023. Often we will have the author join us for a live Zoom call, and then the audio is always recorded and dropped into a private Patreon podcast feed for supporters of the show and they help this main feed show stay free for everyone to consume and be supported by. So thank you so much to the financial backers of the show, the Patreon supporters. You help adoptee on stay alive in this world. So thank you. Thanks so much for listening. Let's talk again next Friday.

248 Jeff Nyhuis & Amy Geller, LCSW

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/248

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Haley Radke: This podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing stated on it either by its hosts or any guests, is to be construed as psychological, medical, or legal advice.

You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. I'm Haley Radkey. Today we are joined by two guests, Amy Geller, an adoptee and therapist, and her husband Jeff Nyhuis. Amy found herself repeating some self-sabotaging patterns in romantic relationships. Does that sound familiar to anyone?

And when she met Jeff, she was determined to correct course. If you were someone who's looking to have a relationship but have struggled to connect with past partners, Or you are feeling misunderstood in your current relationship. Whenever you start talking about adoption, I think this conversation will be extremely helpful for you.

We talk with Amy and Jeff about coming outta the fog together. They give us advice and how we can start these conversations with our partners and how you might end up creating another adoptee ally in the process. Before we get started, I wanted to personally invite you to join our Patreon adoptee community today over on AdopteesOn.com/community, which helps support you and the show to support more adoptees around the world.

We wrap up with some recommended resources and as always, links to everything we'll be talking about today or on the website, AdopteesOn.com. Let's listen in. I'm so pleased to welcome to Adoptees On, Amy Geller and Jeff Nyhuis. Welcome.

Amy Geller: Hi.

Jeff Nyhuis: Hi. Thank you.

Haley Radke: I hope that you'll tell us which one of you is adopted before, uh, so don't get confused. I'm just kidding.

Amy Geller: It's me. Amy Geller, adoptee.

Haley Radke: Okay. So you're the lucky one, Jeff. You don't have to live the adopted life.

Jeff Nyhuis: Yes, that's what I hear.

Haley Radke: Or does he? Oh, yes. All right. Well, I'd love it with you guys would share some of your story with.

Amy Geller: We have an interesting story. I am a therapist. I've been in private practice for almost 12 years now, and I didn't mean to work with adoptees, but adoptees kept finding me. Um, so that's sort of really the beginning of my coming out of the fog story was I had all these adolescents and they all happened to be, coincidentally, adoptees.

The universe kind of knocked on my door. So I started to really examine what was happening there and why there was this almost formulaic thing of like eighth grade, ninth grade. Usually girls coming to my office and with very similar sort of presentations. And I was in a supervision group at the time and they were like, well, you're adopted and you should probably lean into that.

So in the meantime, on a side note, as a therapist, I was successful at work. I had all these friends. I came from this great family. But I was divorced. I got divorced when my kids were really small. And I was single for like 15 years. And it was, I struggled and I was like this therapist who was helping all these people in relationship.

And I had this thing where I was like, three months and I'm out. And it was just this pattern over and over and over again. And fast forward, I met Jeff five years ago and probably due to timing and everything I had done up until that point... interesting to note that I had read probably every clinical book on adoption, but I would say I was still in the fog.

I was a therapist working with adoptees and I was in the fog. When I met Jeff, I was like, I, I've had it. I, I cannot go through this again. You know, I like saw the pattern. I think I kind of recognized some of what was going wrong and, three months was coming and I was like, I gotta break up with this guy.

But I also knew that something, part of this was me. A big part of it was something that was going on with me. And at the time, kind of just randomly, I picked up Anne Heffron's book, You Don't Look Adopted. Happened to have it on like a book, you know, a book tower that we buy, books on Amazon that we intend to read one day.

And just instinctively, I picked it up one day and I sat. I had told Jeff I need a, I need a break. I need to take some space. And I was full on pushing him away. Uh, let's break up. I can't do this. And I read Anne's book and I remember just sobbing. Sobbing. Like I had never read a memoir before. And it took a memoir, like a really honest, authentic, messy version of being an adult adoptee to just blow the doors off.

And I was like, oh my God, this is what's been happening. This is it. I'm adopted. And that's sort of the beginning of our story. Like meeting Jeff was sort of like the final push for me to come out of the fog. And so what's interesting about our story is he's been by my side from day one of that.

Jeff Nyhuis: And I guess my story starts with being in the right place at the right time and knowing I had something very special. And realizing very early, as Amy had said about feeling that push, she was pushing away, but I didn't quite understand it. But her ability to start to communicate very clearly to me what she needed.

And then I had my ability to listen. I'm a high school principal now, but I was also a guidance counselor and teacher. And so. I feel, I find that's one of my strengths is to being able to listen and, um, you know, knowing what she needed. And she taught me to communicate how to express my needs to her as well.

So that was one of the things that I've learned early on. And sometimes you have to give a little space because I started to understand that loss that she felt, and she will continue to feel for her entire life, that abandonment. And that became very clear over time, you know, not right away. I didn't quite get what she was doing at first, but I also wasn't willing to give up something that was really good.

Haley Radke: Jeff, what was your perspective of adoption prior to you guys, you know, coming outta the fog sort of together?

Jeff Nyhuis: I'm, I'm almost embarrassed to say now what I used to think. And it was probably what most people think of it. It's, oh, it's a wonderful thing. People save children and it's people, most people I've learned from Amy, who adopt are unable to have their own children.

I think 82% isn't that accurate?

Amy Geller: Something like that.

Jeff Nyhuis: Yeah. So I just thought it was a great thing for the child and for the parents. But I realize over time in listening and, you know, I feel like I'm going through this doctorate with her, there's a tremendous amount of loss by the child, by the, the birth parent and um, also from the adoptive parents also are feeling loss because they usually can't have their own child.

So that is what I understand a little bit better now and, and honestly I'm seeing it in my work too. I mean, when families come in and I hear, adopted. I'm, I'm, I'm quite aware of what the child is feeling and what the parents are feeling, and it's, it's very prevalent in my line of work as well.

Haley Radke: Amy, I heard you share in another interview that you would get these referrals for these like, you know, junior high, almost senior high girls, and then it would be like the last thing, the adoptive mom just would say, oh, by the way, and they're adopted.

So I'm curious what your first conversation, do you remember having some of these first conversations together? Like reading the book or like being like, why are all these adoptees coming into my practice? And what were some of the things that you were talking about together? Because to tell anyone that, oh, adoption is complicated is one thing, but to go to the next step and be like, I think there's something wrong with me.

I gotta fix this thing. It's like you're really opening yourself up. Do you remember having those convos?

Amy Geller: Jeff and I were not, when I was starting my practice, and at the beginning we weren't together, but when we were at a crisis point in our relationship where we had hit that, it was like my body knew at three months, like find a reason, get out usually at three months.

Right? That's the point of like increased intimacy. And you know, you're not casually dating usually at that point. And I just remember thinking, after I read Anne's book, there is nothing wrong with me. This is totally normal. This is normal for somebody who's adopted. And I remember going to Jeff and saying like, all right, I think I figured something really big out here.

I read this book and I remember you bought the book. And I was like, This it, this is proof that, you know, it's not just me, because I hadn't really been working at that point with a lot of adult adoptees. I was only working with adolescent adoptees, which meant that I was working a lot also with their adoptive parents.

Um, and so the focus of my work was very different back then. But I think I couldn't help but reflect that early, one of our first dates, probably not the first date, but I had shared that I was an adoptee with Jeff. And I just remember at that point it was like, what a beautiful story. My goodness. Like, and then the shift to, oh my God, this has cost me so much.

It's had such a huge impact on my life. And all of a sudden, as those of you listening who have come out of the fog, you know that it doesn't, it can happen really all of a sudden where you see everything. It's like the colored part of the Wizard of Oz movie. You know, it's like everywhere you look, there's adoption in your life.

And it was really overwhelming. I mean, you're, you're. It's also like Bambi trying to stand up. You're like, oh my God, like these legs, do they work? You know? I mean it was just really overwhelming and to be in a new-ish relationship and to say like, I'm going on this path. Can we try to do this together?

Haley Radke: I love that you made him buy his own copy of the book. Like you weren't gonna loan it to him to..

Amy Geller: No one's getting my copy of that book. It is marked up. It is. I mean, it's truly such a pivotal thing in my life.

Haley Radke: Yeah. So Jeff, wait, you read that book? I don't know. Lots of, lots of people listening will have read Ann's book and was indeed very formative, cuz she really tells the truth the whole way through. Like it's full of very blunt, you know, things and lots of people can identify with that. When you read that book, what were your first impressions?

Jeff Nyhuis: I, I feel like I lived that book, you know, because I mean, it's one of those things where. Like I said, Amy has communicated so well, and, but it has, it's not easy and it, there's times that are still not easy.

Amy Geller: Jeff's lived the movie version of that book. Yeah. Right. Like I, I play Anne Heffron in the movie. Yeah.

Jeff Nyhuis: But I know how good we have it, and I know why, because we work and it's not just, you know, me being a good husband that, that listens and everything else. I mean, Amy is amazing and, but just like everybody else, I mean, I mean, adoptees have superpowers as well.

I mean, we talk about that all the time in terms of, you know, there's certain things that I would never get from a person who's not adopted. You know, I think there's such a, an amazing self-awareness to Amy that, not everyone has. And I'm, and I'm sure, I mean, you being adopted have, you know, the ability to, I, I guess be more vulnerable, be more aware of what hurts, what feels, you know, like what feels good, like what, what you need more than most when you really take the time to understand yourself.

And I think that's what Amy did and she passed it on to me, and, which is why I think we're so compatible.

Amy Geller: I always think about the biggest adoptee super superpower, in my opinion, is in being intuitive. Right. And I understand that as sort of a trauma response, but it, what's it like being with somebody really intuitive? Cuz I feel like many of the adult adoptees and younger ones too have that superpower of being really attuned and intuitive.

Jeff Nyhuis: It's very witchy. Um, I, I, uh, she sees things a lot before they happen and it's, it's, it happened and I think she passed it on to her daughter as well, um, because they're, they're scary when they're together.

Haley Radke: Do you wanna elaborate on that? Scary when they're together, but like, in a good way cuz they know each other kind of thing or?

Jeff Nyhuis: Well, Amy's told me a lot that the first time she felt real is when she had her first child. So I think that's, I think that's okay to say, right?

Amy Geller: Mm-hmm. Yeah, Absolut. Absolutely.

Jeff Nyhuis: Um, and, and I, it makes sense. I mean, because. Her whole life. She had this wonderful upbringing in terms of like what would look like, you know, in terms of how she was raised and, but she never had anyone that was a part of her until she had her daughter and then followed by her son. So she talks about that all the time.

Haley Radke: Okay. I got, I have two questions.

I'm gonna go quick with the first one because I think people will be wondering as I am. Amy, do you know what happened to you at three months? Is that, I know you mentioned like, oh, that's when relationships can get more in intimate, but like baby Amy, do you know where you were at three months? Like is there a connection there for you or?

Amy Geller: You know, it's interesting that you bring that up.

So I was brought home from the hospital at two days of age. I was relinquished at birth. Never held by my birth mother. I was in the hospital and my adoptive parents couldn't hold me, touch me, see me, other than through a window for two days. They brought me home and then a few months later I actually had meningitis and I had to spend a month in the hospital.

Haley Radke: Okay. So the body remembers.

Amy Geller: I'll just leave that there.

Haley Radke: Okay. Thank you. All right. I didn't know if you'd really have a marker for that, but you do. Okay. The next thing I'm really curious about, and I think people will think be asking about is: you're a therapist. You have experiences, a guidance counselor, so you're both trained at having these deeper in-depth conversations.

So for someone that's not, I think that can feel intimidating. Like, well of course they can talk about those deep things and process those deep things together cuz like they were literally trained to do that. But what about the rest of us? Can you give some advice or talk a little bit about what those conversations really look like and how you helped each other understand.

Amy Geller: First of all, being a therapist, that is my job, right? And being a guidance counselor and a principal, that is your job. But in my personal life, it still can be really messy. You know? And I think people have this idea. I was really, you know, I thought long and hard about having this conversation with you today as a therapist, right?

Because I think, 10 years, 15 years ago, therapists were supposed to be sort of blank slates and you're not supposed to know anything about them. And I actually checked in with several of my adult adoptee clients about like, Hey, what would that be like for you to hear your therapist talking about her relationship?

And I think partly, part of why I wanna be so open and real and honest about this is because I wanna show people like, Hey, even the therapist struggled with this. Even the therapist couldn't figure out the relationship stuff until she was 48 years old. Because I know that that's, I've talked to so many adoptees and so many people are like, help us with this, help us with the relationship thing.

And I feel so happy to talk about it because I finally have it and I wanna help everyone have it. You know, I want to encourage people to do what it takes to have love in their life, because I think nobody deserves love in their lives, consistent, safe love more than adoptees. So our conversations were really a lot of trial and error and finding our way and admitting that we needed to just try again tomorrow.

Haley Radke: Did you feel the need to like prove it to Jeff? Like, you know, if you have not lived what it feels like to be an adoptee and like the primal wound or however you wanna put it, this thing that we live with it, it's very hard to explain it in words, you know? So did you find like you're trying to prove it?

Or do you remember Jeff, any of those times of like, I'm trying to understand but I'm not quite getting it.

Jeff Nyhuis: Yeah, I, like I said, the first, I would say even three months, I think the first three months were, were great. And then like month four, five, and six were really hard. And it was a, it was really hard to understand why she would be pushing me away, but I was also taking it as like, I would become more, I think, clingy.

Like I would, you know, want like I'd hover and I would, because I didn't understand and I was trying to make sense of it. So, you know, after time I, I realized it was kind of our worst selves, if you will. Meaning it was like, it was her responding to who she was as an adoptee and it was me trying to fill that void, and cuz I didn't understand, so I was trying to be like overcompensate. Then I was like, not this strong person who she needed, you know?

So now I'm more confident and when I feel like she's upset or, or there's something up, you know, bothering her, I know how to deal with it better. And a lot of times it's just, it's giving her space, but also being present.

And there is a fine line because I can step away, but still be around like, Hey, do you need anything? But not be on top of like, you know, and, and feel like I need, like I, I felt like at those times I needed more. And I was trying to get more from her, but she couldn't give it because she was hurting, if that makes sense.

But now it's really like I'm very, very comfortable in our relationship and I'm able to recognize the times that she really needs me and sometimes the times she really needs me, I don't have to be there right by her side. I just have to be present. That's the best way I can describe it.

Amy Geller: I think if you're currently in a relationship with an adoptee, and I'm hoping that so many people will listen to this with their partners. So yes, I felt like I had to prove it. I think that's a very common adoptee feeling like that we have to prove our lived experience, that we have to prove that the loss that we experienced, particularly if it happened early in our lives, that it impacted us.

Last year, my first year of my doctorate, I oversighted so much because I, and I recognized my, my advisor was like, you don't need to cite like 17 authors for every sentence. And I was like, oh my God, I'm doing that adoptee thing. I'm proving it in this literature review. And so with Jeff, yes, in the beginning I had to teach him.

I remember there was this moment where you seemed to get adoption when I made it about you and your children.

Jeff Nyhuis: Mm-hmm.

Amy Geller: Right. And not everybody gets it like that. And it can feel so infuriating. Right. But I remember saying to you like, just think about it like, I lost my mother and you have two children. Think about which one, if they were out in the world without you and you never saw them again, and I feel like that was for you, a turning point.

But my advice to people trying to love an adoptee and hold on to an adoptee, because I think that can be really tricky. I think that's kind of what you were talking about, Jeff, is like that trying to hold on, which then feels suffocating to us.

We're between these two pans of glass as we try and experience love. Don't come too close. Don't go too far away, and it can be crazy making for those who are trying to hold on. But two things, I think if you're trying to prove it to your partner, it's okay to get help. So yes, that as a therapist, I was able to translate, right, in therapy speak or to try and make it clear.

But there's people who can help you with that and find somebody who can help your partner. Who can help you validate to your partner what you're experiencing. It's so worth it if you can hang on, because there are moments now where the most random thing will be a trigger for an adoptee. It can be something small, it can be a billboard on the street, you know, or it can be something in a TV show, and Jeff will just look at me and I just know that he knows now, and it is, it's, it's just so healing.

Haley Radke: I'm, I'm curious what you think of this push pull that extends from romantic to other relationships we have in our lives where a lot of us, you know, I'm thinking about the estrangement series I did. There's so many of us now estranged from our adoptive parents because of that felt ownership that they had over us and not allowing us to grow up.

And, and I'm, I'm curious if you have a sense of that, like if that is one of the impacts where it's like, Well, it's easier just to be like, okay, I'm all done. And just like cut and go. Not just in romantic relationships, cuz if you're dating, that's, I mean, I haven't, I, I'm married like really young, so I haven't dated for a long time, but I imagine it's pretty easy to be like, yeah, okay, uh, ghost or whatever, you know. But I don't know. Do you have thoughts on that? It's a little convoluted. I get it. But.

Amy Geller: I think the push pull definitely happens in a lot of relationships and adoptive families are really interesting when it comes to that. A lot of the adult adoptees that I talk to have expressed either going low contact or no contact because there is this, like all or nothing kind of, like you said, ownership or just expectation that, either as you start to come out of the fog and talk about how adoption has impacted your life, that that's somehow you are breaking some silent contract of silence. Or that as you try and set boundaries, it's like it becomes all or nothing. And so I find that a lot of people who choose estrangement or don't choose it, but have to do it for their own peace or sanity, often don't have a choice because it's either all in or all out.

That seems to be the choice that was given to them.

Haley Radke: And so to take this back to your relationship and other people's romantic relationship, I, I don't know, what would you have done if Jeff hadn't come around and like seen your side of it? It must be very hard for someone who is starting to critique adoption with their current partner and like, like having a current partner, and their partner just literally not getting it and still buying into all the happy adoption tropes that society sees. So what do you think you would've done, Amy? And then do you have thoughts on that? Like how to navigate that and still maintain a relationship or can you even?

Amy Geller: I can't imagine how that would've felt. I mean, I definitely took a big risk and I think anybody showing this very vulnerable side of them is taking a big risk. I can't help but think of, I work with many people who didn't come out of the fog until five years, 10 years, 15 years, sometimes even later into a marriage. And so Jeff and I sort of set out on this road together and we grew into it together.

Jeff was by my side through both of my reunions, through so much that we've gone through together. But I can imagine that here you are going down the road of life with your partner and then all of a sudden they come crashing out of the fog and the partner is like, okay, who are you? Or what's going on here?

And even the ones who try to be empathic and are supportive I find usually are like, when does this end? When is this fog, coming out of the fog, when is that over? Like when can we go back to our like previously scheduled programming? And I feel for couples in that situation because I know that we had this advantage where we were like sort of, we were building the foundation of our relationship in that space of me coming out of the fog.

I think it can be really devastating and be experienced as another abandonment, which we feel in our bones, in our souls, in our cellular makeup. And so then of course if, if you go to somebody and you say, Hey, I read this book. Read this book. Or hey, like, this is what's happening with me, and they can't hang, they can't deal with it.

And that happens, right? You've gotta have a lot of support around you because you're going to basically be experiencing another abandonment. But it's also an opportunity for what we call in therapy a corrective experience. I think I wouldn't just, you know, when I met Jeff, there was so much work that went into that beforehand.

You know, I had done my own therapy for a long time. I was sort of gradually getting to this place. It was not something that that happened overnight.

Haley Radke: Jeff, do you have thoughts for our partners?

Jeff Nyhuis: I do. Um, you know, when you asked that question to Amy, the first thing that came to mind is, I was very, very fortunate that I was in the right place at that time in the sense of, you know, and again, I think I credit Amy for the strong person she is and being able to really realize what was happening in her life and, and then being able to translate that to me.

But if I were not as receptive and were not able to handle what was happening, I do feel very confident, she is so strong that she would've been able to continue on and I mean, I, I think that was kind of like, what would you do if, you know, if Jeff wasn't receptive? Well, I mean, I would've missed out on what I feel is the greatest part of my life.

And now, like I said, I'm, I'm really happy we were at that place because, you know, sometimes it's timing, but it's also the people who we are and, and we both keep working. And, and something Amy said to me early on in our relationship, because, I was coming out of a very tough divorce and things like that, but. She always said, you always have to do the work.

And then she's like, I do. You know, meaning, and she's proof of it. Like she, there's not a day that she doesn't work on herself, on her life, whether it's with her clients or her doctorate now.

Working on yourself is the most important thing, and you really have to continue to do that. And it's never over because if you stop, then you know you're gonna, you know, you're gonna fall back into old habits or fall back into complacency or fall back into just where you're not bettering your yourself. And believe me, Amy's tough to keep up with. So I'm really, so I'm always trying to , you know, work on myself so that I'm there for her.

Haley Radke: Uh, do you guys have advice for how to start these conversations in your relationship? Because believe me, it is way easier to stay siloed in our online adoptee groups and chat with fellow adoptees about this stuff and kind of leave out your partner, um, or other friends as you're unpacking adoption stuff.

Because you don't know how they're gonna react. Right. And of course most of the world thinks adoption is all sunshine and roses. So how do you get from that safe place to bringing those conversations actually into real life with your, your partner?

Amy Geller: That's a good point because I think when you come out of the fog and you discover, particularly online spaces that feel so safe, and all of a sudden you're seeing, you're feeling seen and heard for the first time as your adoptee self, it feels so good.

Right? It feels so safe. And like you found your planet. And yet we live on this planet, right? We lived on, we live on this planet here of the kept, and it can be really hard, right? To come back to this planet, this space where we live and translate those conversations. You know, I think part of it is, if it's not going well, try to get somebody to help you.

Like my dream is that like we could actually work with couples because I feel like somebody who's loving an adoptee and has figured it out, has so much to share with other partners about what to do with this information as it happens.

And it is really scary cuz I can tell you that I had two breakup speeds. One was, oh my God, this person is awful, terrible. And I would just like end it and go on with my life. Everyone used to be like, there was no runway out of there. Like it was like, I mean, I would be dating somebody and then I would go out to dinner with friends and I'd be like, yeah, it's over. And they'd be like, what happened? And I'd be like, it's just over.

Or I would be so crushed and devastated and it would be like a three tissue box event. So, I get like, it's really tricky. These things are really tricky.

Haley Radke: I loved what you did about the sharing the book with him. Like that's a great, first, let's talk about this. And I think hopefully most of us are in relationships where our partner is willing to explore something if you're not, like there's other, other problems afoot. Right.

So I don't know, you mentioned earlier like listening to this podcast together with your partner might be helpful and, and starting conversations like that, but yeah, talking about a mediated conversation with a therapist that's so helpful for the really, really tricky things so you can feel heard.

Amy Geller: And that's an area where finding somebody, I think for adoptees, when they bring their partners in to work with me, they feel, you know, there's a safety in knowing that the therapist really has lived the experience and can kind of help translate that adoptee experience because it, it is so pre-verbal what so many of us experience that we don't have the words for it or the language for it.

I mean, it's so interesting to talk about adoption. I, this is the rest of my career will be spent on working with adoptees and around adoption. And I still find conversations about adoption really clumsy in terms of just basic language. We have so far to come and there's another thing that I really feel like is important to say for those adoptees out there who are still looking for love and haven't found somebody.

I know a pattern for me that I feel like I wanna share is I would date and very different kinds of people, very open-minded, like didn't have a type. And one thing I realized before I met Jeff was that I finally made this realization that narcissists love adoptees. And in recent years, there's more kind of information coming out about the presence of narcissism in adoptive families.

And so it starts, the puzzle really starts to come together, right? And again, I use the term narcissism not as a dirty word. Narcissism is a personality disorder that is resulting from trauma and loss. So it makes sense that adoptive families, if they've chosen to adopt because of loss or trauma, that there might be the presence of that.

And so I had this pattern that it didn't matter what their background was, how tall they were, how short they were, the color of their hair, I was attracting and attracted to people with narcissistic tendencies. And um, that usually was fantastic in the beginning because who doesn't love a good love- bombing?

Right? But it would usually blow up. And ending a relationship with a narcissist is really torture. So that is just from my own personal experience, something that I sort of, I got to that place. And so when I started dating Jeff, I was on the lookout, right, for the early signs of that. And it was already different.

And so I think that's one of the things that made me feel like you asked like, how do you start this with somebody? How do you start this conversation or how do you know what kind of partner would be right for you as an adoptee? And I think there's certain traits that we need to be on the lookout for.

Haley Radke: I think we need to hear more about that. What are the, what are some of the red flags? What are some of the things that we can give a pass to, which later on is really gonna hurt us?

Amy Geller: So people who have narcissistic tendencies tend to be attracted to people who seem really independent, don't like to ask for help, are seemingly on the surface pretty strong, but you know, it's really, the relationship is really like a trauma bond.

So the trauma in the narcissist, I think is attracted to the trauma in the adoptee. And we as adoptees, many of us tend to be people pleasers and we're chameleons. We have learned because our identity was sort of, reshaped and, um, modified, we are really good at being whatever people need us and want us to be.

And so when you start dating somebody and they just on the first date have decided that you are the greatest thing ever, and they are madly in love with you, and they will never leave you, that feels really exciting and great. You might even tell yourself, wow, this is just like in the movies. Like, I have found, I have such a connection to this person.

I would urge you to remember that nothing happens that fast. It's okay to have those feelings. That's exciting. But often somebody with narcissistic tendencies will also, they will ask you a lot of questions about yourself. They will invite you to share your story, to talk about yourself.

And for an adoptee, this is great. We love to tell our story to somebody who's listening because our stories are so important to us. But at the first sign of weakness, often somebody who has narcissistic tendencies will freak out and pull away. And often then this results in a cycle that is just probably very damaging to both parties.

But so I, I think for me, that was really realizing like that was my pattern and then understanding where that was coming from. I mean, I think we tend to lean into partners with what we were raised with as children, yes?

Haley Radke: Okay, fine. Just talk about me right to my face. Anyway. No, no, no. My husband's amazing and the, I think one of the reasons we've been together for so long, we got married super young. We, it feels like you grew up together right when you meet in college and like we're still together, but. I'm a totally different person now.

He didn't know he was marrying this like adoptee advocate person back then. Like we were gonna adopt. Like, I, like I've come a long way. Right? And so he's come alongside and he is very understanding and patient and is listened to, God, so much talk about adoption. Um, how is that for you, Jeff, now? Like do you picture yourself as on Adoptee Ally? You know, you're watching Amy do all this like, incredible doctoral research on adult adoptees. What's that like for you? Do you feel like a little bit of like, I don't know what, what's the word I'm looking for? Like you're, you're coming into the, even in the school system, right? Not, not all educators know, oh, adopted kids need a little bit more supports in areas. Maybe we should be taking a little, uh, look at family tree projects, cuz that can be triggering, right? Like, so you being an ally is a little bit different even in your workplace.

Jeff Nyhuis: Yeah, no, I, I definitely, as I said before, I do feel I'm getting a doctorate as well. I do feel that there's so much that I've learned just by being in her presence and listening to her. She did a like a presentation or a podcast for the, is it the Cleveland Adoption Network? And I, you know, I watched that and I actually listened to her when she did it.

And, you know, that was almost a year and a half ago now, maybe. But even then, I mean, watching her grow into this and being more comfortable and confident about it has given me a skillset. Like I do remember one time I was talking to a family, this was a few years ago, and I realized that they were talking about a child who was adopted. Their child and I wanted to say so much and because I felt like I knew, and I kind of just kept my mouth shut. And, you know, I remember telling Amy about it and she's like, you are not a professional on this. You know, and I said, I know, but I feel like I know, like I want to help them. You know.

Amy Geller: There's that beginning of like..

Jeff Nyhuis: Right.

Amy Geller: Getting it. And then remember you were like, I wanted to talk about trauma so badly. And I'm like, you cannot with parents that call you at school, open up the adoption trauma conversation. Like, I am a trained therapist and that takes like seven months before I go there with parents.

Jeff Nyhuis: Right. So, you know, what I end up doing now is I listen and I, I, I know certain things that I can say and you know, I, I also know my advice to them is really to, they need to get help and not just. For the child, but for the family. Everybody needs to, to speak and be a part of that. So again, that's been my role and I'm so, like I said, I'm so proud of her, like for, for, and I do think a lot of what she's doing is cutting edge.

I mean, in the sense of no one's really taken the time. I mean, to really dig into a lot of the things that I think Amy is digging into, and yourself and you know, just getting, I feel it's really been very beneficial in my work. But it's also, I do feel like I have a knowledge base now that allows me to gently help people and nudge them to the right, you know, to get the help they need.

Amy Geller: I love that you had talked earlier about, so there are times where I will just shut down, where I just go into baby brain, adoptee pain. And I will often say to adoptive parents that I work with, when your child goes in their room and slams the door and says, I hate you. You're not my mother and I never wanna see you again.

I will often say, well, sit outside the door because there's this, like, will you leave me? Like, leave me, but will you leave me? Don't go too far. And that is definitely something that I think plays into our life where you've learned that presence.

Jeff Nyhuis: Mm-hmm.

Amy Geller: Like, you know, when, when I get into that place to take a few steps away, either physically or emotionally, but not to leave completely.

And it really, it's made such a difference for me, and I think it's helpful for you to know, I believe that most people who love us, they wanna do it right and they wanna know how to do it right.

Jeff Nyhuis: But also knowing how to do it right, when things are good, like, you know, because I feel. There's little things that you can do. Like even just, every day, I'll check in with her at some point just to say, Hey, how's your day going? It could be a 30 second phone call, but I do think that those little things mean so much. I mean, I would say to many people, but like, I think an adoptee just like, I don't think I've ever said, but I mean, it means something for her to get a check-in, you know, just to, Hey, how's it going?

Do you know what I mean? And it's not, I wouldn't be in trouble if I didn't do it, but I just, I find myself doing it because I want to make sure that, and you, it might be as much for me too, but I just feel like that has helped. There's been times too, like early on in our relationship where I wake up and she's not in bed and I'm like, what's going on?

And I'll go and she'll be on the couch or something, and she's like, why don't you go back up to bed? I'm like, no, I want to be by you. Sometimes, like, it's that space. Like, and, and you know, and then all of a sudden within 10 minutes, she's like, let's go back to bed. Like, I think it, it's just, there's such a strange feeling that in the beginning where I didn't understand all of this, and now I feel so much more comfortable, but I also know that I can't just rest on it.

I have to continue to learn. And being present, as Amy said, is, has been if I could give any advice, that's what I would say to be. You have to know when to give space, but be present where they know you're still there.

Amy Geller: I think that speaks to connection, right? Like we work hard to keep our connection, and I think you have to be really mindful in all of your relationships, but particularly with an adoptee, not to lose that connection. Whatever that means for you and your partner. Cuz we can all go days like you've been married a really long time, right? So I'm sure there are periods of time where it's like, we're ships in the night, or you can be in the same home but you haven't really connected, like made that time.

So we really do work on that. But I'm going to keep it really real right now and share with you that Jeff has been with me through the fog and through reunion with both of my biological, um, parents. And there were periods during the, that, the height of that, which is very seldom these days where I would just need to be on the floor.

So Jeff is being kind by saying the couch, but I feel like I will help so many more people if I just say there were times when the pain was so blinding and so overwhelming and I couldn't even put it into words because it was so primal that I would need to just, and want to just be on the floor. And it was really difficult as I was coming out of the fog, navigating that with my adoptive family, with my biological families, meeting biological relatives.

And that could be really confusing to see a woman that you've just described as really strong and successful on the floor. But that is the reality of adoption. And it took us a while to figure that out. But yes, so I would sometimes wind up on the floor and Jeff would say, if you're sleeping on the floor, I'm sleeping here too.

And then he would just stay there. And I fought him at first, and then over time I stopped fighting because he kept doing it. And I don't go on the floor anymore very much. Every once in a while, sometimes if I like. I'm really stressed out, but there's just something very grounding about that, right? I mean, I understand it as like, I'll often tell when, when I speak to a client in crisis, I will get them on the floor.

I will actually tell them to lay on the floor. Um, because I just feel like it's our, our nervous systems, like adoptee pain is so much more than a feeling of sadness or loss. It's, it's a physiological, biological soul crushing feeling.

Haley Radke: You made me cry three times this interview. Okay? Get you someone that's gonna lay on the floor with you. And roll their eyes when that stupid adoption storyline comes up on a show and you're, they get it wrong.

Amy Geller: And they get it wrong. And, and I love that, that somebody who's kept can look at me and be like, oh, really? You know? But

Haley Radke: Yes.

Amy Geller: But when they get it right, you know, there's moments where they get it right too. And, and knowing the difference. I mean, my advice to anybody always all day is to be compassionate and curious. Right? That's like, that's like with those two things all day, I think anything is almost possible. I think the biggest takeaway is, this is forever. This is forever. Like I've chosen to do this for my life and my career, but not everybody does. Right.

But I am an adoptee forever. All day, every day. I recently heard them say on the Adoptees Dish podcast, I am adopted 24 7 365. And I think, get comfortable, get in it like, except that this is not a rough patch. This is our lives.

Haley Radke: Mm-hmm. Thank you so much for sharing your relationship with us. I think it'll be really helpful for a lot of people and I'm gonna recommend, people are gonna have to scroll way back, but we did a series on relationships.

What year was that? I have to look at the year. That's so sad. Um, 2018. So way back in the feed. And I had my husband on episode 58, so he talked through what it looked like going through Reunion with me as well and like how weird that was and how weird I acted. Uh, and, and her ex-husband came on and talked about what it was like getting divorced and what their relationship was like.

So I think that might be helpful for folks too. That's 66. And then I had a show with Stephanie who talked about when two adoptees marry each other, episode 70. So, um, those all would be probably helpful for folks to listen to again with a partner and then discuss. You can talk about us if you want. You have my permission, you know, um, talk about us behind our back.

That's all good. What did you guys wanna recommend to us today?

One of the

Amy Geller: resources that I often use is, um, Grow Beyond Words is a, a practice of, of therapists, but they have a resource of therapists who are also adopted. And they have, they have therapists from across the country, and even a few that can work in all 50 states, um, virtually.

So if you're looking for an adoption competent therapist or an adoption or a therapist who is adopted, I always kind of start there when I'm looking for a referral for somebody.

Haley Radke: Excellent. Yeah, that's Dr. Wirta-Leiker's list. And what I say to people, I, you can maybe extend this too, is lots of them are already booked up, but if there's somebody in their, in your area that you're looking for or in your state, you can email them and they may have colleagues su to suggest to you.

Um, so that can help if, if your therapist of choice is them, got a waiting list.

Amy Geller: Agree and always, you can always email me AmyGellerLCSW at gmail. When adoptees reach out to me for help, I currently am not taking new people, but I love to make connections. And through my work I am educating therapists who may not be adopted themselves or who may not be considered adoption competent, but who are learning and, um, who I consult with.

So always. You know, if you're looking for help, don't just like, you know, go to the website and say, oh, you know, there's nobody taking anybody. Another thing that I'm really excited to talk about is I recently discovered an organization called A Home Within and A Home Within is a nonprofit based on the West Coast.

They provide free therapy pro bono to anybody who's experienced foster care for any amount of time. And I know that the world is full of so many adoptees wanting therapy. It's, it's a privilege, right? To be able to find a therapist, afford a therapist. Um, and while I know that this doesn't, you know, I mean, many adoptees have spent time in foster care.

For example, I myself, I was taken home from the hospital at two days of age, but technically I was in foster care for nine months because I, my adoption did not become finalized or legal until nine months later. And so I'm going to be volunteering with them as a clinician, and I'm hoping to sort of bridge their mission with my mission, which is to make therapy accessible to as many adoptees as possible.

So it's AHomeWithin.org.

Haley Radke: Wonderful. I was looking at their FAQs and it says, who's eligible for therapy? Uh, anyone who has spent at least one day in foster care at any point in their life. So, 10 outta 10. Good recommendation there, Amy. Okay. Jeff, any last thoughts?

Jeff Nyhuis: No, I appreciate you having us on here.

You know, like I said, I am, I'm very impressed. I wrote down the episodes. I want to go back and check those out, so thank you.

Haley Radke: Oh, wonderful. Amy, where can we best connect with you online?

Amy Geller: You can find me at, on Instagram at AmyGellerLCSW. I'm also on Instagram on an adoptee centric place, called The Adoption Alchemist. I am also on LinkedIn and Twitter.

Haley Radke: Awesome. We will put all those links in the show notes for folks. Thank you so much.

Amy Geller: Thank you, Haley.

Jeff Nyhuis: Thank you, Haley.

Haley Radke: Okay. If you are following along on social anywhere you may see, That I started a fundraising project to help cover the cost of transcribing the entire back catalog of the adoptees on podcast. So here are some things I have come to the realization of over the last couple of years. There are many of you who re-listened to past episodes because you find them so helpful, especially healing series episodes when you need a little coaching up from a friendly adoptee therapist as one example.

And the other thing I've heard from several adoptees is that they have a really hard time focusing when listening. And so they find that podcast just aren't for them. And then there is a third community that I just have not served well. The only way folks could quote unquote read along with a transcript of the show was to watch it on YouTube, which has automated transcripts.

And I don't know if you've ever put on the automated transcripts on YouTube, but it's like the worst version of close captioning where you know it's automated and they spell things wrong all the time. They get words wrong all the time. It's just not that accurate. And so I knew that wasn't going to be the best stop gap measure, and I've been really, really concerned with accessibility.

And a couple of years ago, um, that really came to the forefront. And so I started. Transcribing episodes and I hired someone to do that and we did, I think maybe 20 episodes and I just did not have the money to keep it up. Now at this point, we are transcribing as we go and each new episode goes up with a full transcript, which is amazing and I'm so proud of that.

But thinking about the whole back catalog and how many amazing things of wisdom our guests have shared with us, I really wanna make that accessible. And so we started also working our way backwards through the catalog to transcribe everything. And that comes at a large cost of people's time. So we do have special software.

It's just not perfect. And so it takes a human going through every episode, making sure guest names are spelled correctly, making sure the software has got it right and making those corrections. And so I want to invite you to partner with me to pay for the cost of transcribing the show. This feels like a necessary thing for us to do as a community in order to serve everyone.

So if there are adoptees that are deaf, hard of hearing, or people with a hearing loss, there are folks in our community that just process information better when they can read along, or folks that like to refer back to something they may have missed earlier in the conversation. It will benefit all of those people.

Another thing I mentioned, and this is not perfect, but it's really cool that you can copy a full transcript into translation software and then read it and a language of you're choosing. So I know we have listeners where English is not their first language and they would like to consume some of that content, and that's an option too.

So again, all of those things help bring the adoptees on message to way more folks if we're able to do this. So thank you to everyone who has been supporting the show financially and and allowed us to do the transcription process, you know, from this point forward. And at this point we are about a fifth of the way through the catalog.

And so we have, you know, 80% left to go. And that is a huge chunk of time and huge cost. So our goal is $20,000, which is wild and scary. And I've never done a huge, um, fundraiser for the show. I've done the monthly crowdfunding through Patreon, but I've never done like a big one-off. And it's very scary and it feels, I'm nervous recording this.

Maybe I don't sound nervous asking, but I am. And so if everyone who listened, you know, I'm gonna say the thing. You know, if everyone who listened just gave a couple bucks, we'd meet our goal this week. Um, but if you're listening and you have the means and if the show has meant something to you, I would love it if you would consider.

Substantial donation to this project. $20,000 is a lot of money. I do have a lot of listeners, um, but I don't have, I know that everyone who listens cannot give, and I get that. I totally get that. But if you are able, I would love it if you would go to adopteeson.com/donate. You'll be transferred over to the PayPal page and it'll show you in real time how much money we've raised so far.

When I'm recording this for you is I've just launched the campaign and we're over $400, and so maybe when you're listening to this, you can go and check and see, oh my gosh, I wonder how much, um, we're at now. Uh, that would be really cool if I'm way off. Um, anyway, please help us with this campaign. I'm gonna run up for about a month, and hopefully we'll get the full 20,000.

And I promise I'm not gonna do this every single episode, the big pitch. But y'all, please show up for your community, show up for me, adopteeson.com/donate, and let's get this back catalog transcribed. Thank you, friend. I appreciate your consideration on that. adopteeson.com/donate. Thank you for listening, and let's talk again next Friday.

247 Katie Bozek, Ph.D., LMFT

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/247

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Haley Radke: This podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing stated on it either by its hosts or any guests, is to be construed as psychological, medical, or legal advice.

You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. I'm Haley Radkey. Today's guest is Dr. Katie Bozek, a therapist and the executive director of KAAN, the Korean American Adoptee Adoptive Family Network we talk about the complexity of what being asked for our story brings. Katie shares how the birth of her first child was, what set her on the journey of looking closely of what being adopted truly meant to her.

And we touch on ways we both parent as adoptees with a focus on building connection. Before we get started, I wanted to personally invite you to join our Patreon community today over on adopteeson.com/community, which helps support you and also the show to support more adoptees around the world. We wrap up by talking about the upcoming KAAN Conference and want an adoptee led event with a focus on community building and wellbeing can look like links to everything we'll be talking about today are on the website, adoptee on.com. Let's listen in.

I'm so pleased to welcome to Adoptee on Dr. Katie Bozek. Welcome, Katie.

Katie Bozek: Oh, thank you so much for having me.

Haley Radke: I really appreciate speaking with you today and I would love it if you would share some of your story with us to start.

Katie Bozek: Oh, the what parts of my story, because I'm old, so my story could be very long.

Haley Radke: Katie. I'm turning 40 this year now. I think my audience is gonna have a drinking game of where, how many times has Haley said that in episodes this year? But how old are you?

Katie Bozek: I will be turning 42 in just a few months.

Haley Radke: Okay. We're not old. Come on.

Katie Bozek: No, we're not.

Haley Radke: Just tell us what you'd like to.

Katie Bozek: I think it's and and I'm sure everyone, all your listeners know, it's such a loaded question.

Tell me your story. And I think as an adoptee, for me I will answer your question at some point, but I gotta ram before a moment. Cuz that's what old people do. We ramble for a moment before we answer questions.

Haley Radke: You have to stop calling us old.

Katie Bozek: Sorry. I do it cause I don't believe it. It's I've gotten to this point, I'm doing what I'm doing.

I'm like how is this happening? How is this life? How have I made it this far? And, and that ties right back into, telling your story is, it's such a loaded question for an adoptee for me. And when I hear it from non- adoptees, I'm, I get the sense they wanna know all the gritty details, right?

When were you adopted? Have you been back? Have you found your biological parents? Have you found your real parents? All of that. And it's different when it comes from an adoptee. But it also still hits at that, "what is it that you want me to tell you? What are you looking for?" And I think as an adoptee who has lived this long, not old, it is recognizing those spaces of when you are asked a question, how do I want to answer this?

And what kind of mind frame, mindset ,am I, what are they looking for? What is their position? What do I want to get out of that conversation? Are they looking to get something out of the conversation beyond just information? And so I think my story goes right to being able to say all of that. Being able to go through my life, have all those many years of just parodying back, oh, I was adopted when I was six months old. No, I don't know. My biological parents. Oh yes, I think that I'm happy. And oh, I don't think about them all that much. Which is a lie.

And to being able to say what do you mean by that? What part of my story do you want? What is it that you're asking of me? Which is an actually funny thing to say back to someone who asked me on their show to talk about my story. Hopefully you, hopefully I do not offend you by that.

Haley Radke: No, absolutely not. I know that's one of the things that, like the critique of that question is who's asking? Absolutely. And most of us listening are adopted people.

And so I ask it to build a connection with you and the listener. So they can be like, oh yeah, I totally get that part. I identify with that. That's not my experience, but I feel that part and building up this beautiful connection versus the exploitative nature of wanting the tea. Someone who doesn't get it.

Katie Bozek: Yeah. I think there's, definitely something about, asking that question as wanting to get information versus really wanting to understand the process and understanding that there is a process to being able to share your story. Our stories are not linear.

I think there is a lot of going through parts of your life and then looking back on it, making sense of it from a different perspective. Weaving that into how you see yourself. On that current day moving forward and then doing that process again. And I think that's where, when you ask about, when anyone asks, what is your story?

Tell me about your story. I think more of how have I gotten to this place of understanding my story is my story and no one else's. And that my story is from my perspective and what goes into that perspective and that is experiences and information and life in general. So.

Haley Radke: Is this a good point to, to point out that you're a therapist?

Katie Bozek: Yes. Because therapists never actually answer your question. We always have to be very reflective. Yes.

Haley Radke: What do you mean by that, Haley?

Katie Bozek: Exactly. As soon as you ask, I was like, oh no, this is such a therapist response.

Which is, It's a funny thing cuz I feel like I am a therapist, I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, but I feel every day I learn something more about myself. I learn more about humanity, I learn more about my role in humanity and where I fit. And that's such a beautiful thing.

Haley Radke: So you were adopted from Korea. And you now live in Michigan, is that right?

Katie Bozek: Yes. So I was adopted at six months and, to my parents who are from Grand Rapids, Michigan, and then I've stayed there the rest of my life. My husband and I have our three kids and we all still live there.

Haley Radke: And what drew you to becoming a therapist?

Katie Bozek: Oh, this is a funny question. It's a funny answer. So I did my undergrad in psychology and I knew I wanted to go into psychology when I was in high school. I was one of those weird kids who knew exactly what she wanted to do and then went and did it and never changed. So I knew in high school I wanted to go into psychology.

I think that's the only thing that changed. I did not become a psychologist, but I wanted to have my own private practice and I wanted to do everything on my own terms. I'm doing that. So in undergrad, when I was looking at graduate schools and looking at what programs and what I wanted to do, what I wanted to study the question of, I really wanted to understand why do some couples stay together and why do some divorce?

And so I just, I literally typed it into Google marriage therapy or couple therapy. I don't even know what. And the program at Michigan State University popped up. I had a meeting with the program director. I applied and got my master's in doctorate from there. So I'm a Marriage and Family Therapist because I Googled it, because I did not know there was such a thing.

And it's a whole different way of looking at people and relationships. And it just, it fits my worldview more than what I thought.

Haley Radke: And who do you primarily see in your private practice?

Katie Bozek: I see everyone. So I see individuals, teens, individual adults, couples, families, sometimes kids. It really runs the gamut. And that's because my, my training is in systems and communication. So I'm able to see individuals and more than one person in the room, not just couples.

Haley Radke: And then what percentage would you say if you want to are people coming to see you that are connected to adoption some way?

Katie Bozek: I'm terrible at percentages and the funny thing is, Haley, is it goes up and down. So there'll be a time where I have a lot of people in my office dealing with some of the same things or similar situations. And then other time, like it'll switch. Sometimes I'll have a lot of families in, sometimes I'll have a lot of teens and sometimes I have a lot of couples in it. Just, it is interesting, I haven't figured out that wave yet.

So I would say right now, I would say 50% of my client load right now is an adoptee or someone connected to the adoptee, adoption constellation. And that's been actually pretty consistent over the past few years. I don't know how to explain it, but I always feel like, okay, when I get those waves of people or clients coming in, that it's more than just a few, I always look at myself and say, okay, what is it that I need to work on? What is it that I need to learn? And so it's interesting that over the past, probably decade, I've had more and more adopts come in into my office in, in doing that.

Haley Radke: You al always wonder that about the adoptees who are therapists that come on the show. How you balance your own self care and work and not bring that into in an unhealthy way. Bring that into the counseling room. Because, oh my gosh, it could be so activating or triggering for someone if you haven't personally worked on those things in yourself first.

Katie Bozek: And you definitely have to work on those things. You have to work as a therapist in your training and beyond that in your own boundaries and recognizing what is your own personal response and how does that fit into what the conversation is. And so I'm very aware of that when someone says something, whether it's an adoptee or not, and I have my own response of this is a very strong response and I have to quickly put it and check and understand where to locate that and what to do with that.

Haley Radke: I'm curious, when you first started encountering adopted people in your life. Did you know any other adoptees growing up? Did you know any other kids that were people of color? Asian, Korean. How, what did that look like for you in childhood and beyond?

Katie Bozek: It's interesting because one of, how did it go, our neighbors at the time in the eighties worked with someone who was looking to adopt and that couple ended up meeting with my parents and going through the adoption process at a similar timeline as my parents. And they, their daughter came to America, oh my, six months or a year after me, and they would get us together. Her and I are not that far apart in age, I think a year. And so we were pen pals because during the eighties we didn't have technology.

So I have somewhere in my house crayon written letters to each other. And I always, it's funny because we've always known that, but that's not something we always talked about. And it, that's always an interesting thing when I really think about it because I think about all the other families who have other adopted siblings in their Families and how some don't talk to each other about that experience.

And actually it's, so I had her growing up and then the area that we lived in, predominantly white. So I think we had one black girl in my class, one black, two black teachers in elementary. I'm thinking about elementary. And then we moved to an even more predominantly white suburb in junior high.

And it just, I think there were five other Asian students that I avoided because I didn't want to be outed that I wasn't actually quote unquote Asian. That's how transracial adoptees tend to feel right, is I'm not actually truly Asian.

So there was that part. I do have, so in my family, there's me and then my parents ended up having two biological kids, and my youngest brother is also adopted from Korea. But him and I never, ever have talked about being adopted or Korea growing up. I think maybe a tiny bit as adults, but not really. That's a whole other bottle of wax. Oh, I see. The wheels turning.

Haley Radke: Thinking of what you do, I do find that interesting.

Katie Bozek: So yeah, it's one of those things that, you know, as a therapist, I can spot in all the other things. I know it's jacked up, but in my own family it's also, okay. I'm also very aware of how much emotional energy I give to others and when it is going to be beneficial and when it's not.

And that's just something that happens in family sometimes, where for myself, I have to draw certain boundaries. Yep.

Haley Radke: I think there's this piece of safety that we've been talking about lately as we, critique the phrase out of the fog and we learn more about the adoptee consciousness model and are thinking of adoptees who never critique adoption, are happy they were adopted, think everything is the best and the amount of mental capacity it takes to start looking at your adoption critically. And that can really upset a family dynamic. So I think lots of people are really weighing carefully which kinds of conversations to have. So.

Katie Bozek: 100%. I think weighing and then I think there's weighing, and then there's trying and seeing the kind of response. And then also where you are just in your own point of life as well, you know how much more to push, how much more growth you as a person need. All sorts of things.

Haley Radke: Okay. So I mentioned this to you before we come on. I may have read part of your dissertation. Yeah. Okay.

Katie Bozek: Oh God. Okay. I do have to preface, that's been like, What, 20 years ago, so I might not remember anything that you read.

Haley Radke: This was submitted for your doctorate in 2009, so we're not quite 20 years. What is this? Let me look at the front date to the grant. Yeah. Yeah.

Katie Bozek: This is little, that gonna be like 15 years.

Haley Radke: It's okay. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna give you your panel questions. No. Easy softballs. No you were just talking about this safety. So you interviewed 15 women who were adoptees. All adopted from Korea.

And talking about different moments in time through the life cycle of, you should really tell us what it is about. But my question is about a specific time. A lot of them, it seemed to me, when you were talking about elementary age, some of them were expressing trying to maintain safety for their adoptive parents in not sharing the episodes of racism and discrimination they were already facing from their peers in elementary school.

And I thought, oh my gosh. Like we are brought into these family systems as infants or young children to like, make a family and do something for the adoptive parents. And we know that innately, like, how does a little kid know to protect their, quote unquote, protect their adoptive parents from the pain they're experiencing? I just found that so sad.

Katie Bozek: It's very sad and it, these are just my thoughts. Okay. I don't have research to back any of this up right now, but I think about all of the small moments that we go through each day. That actually end up being really big moments. So I think about parenting, it might even just myself as a parent, those moments where I might be, someone might come to me, one of them might come to me when they were little and how do I validate their fears or something that happened that I might not think it's so big, or I might not understand it.

And how do I validate that? How do I know that they're listened to? I always say that I would be a completely different parent if I did not go through therapist training because of how I was brought up. My parents, and I, and the thing is, it starts from such a young age where we don't have those conscious memories of asking questions or bringing something up.

And I promise, Haley, I'm gonna weave this all together. Okay. But I think about, cause I, I have thought about this quite a bit just for myself. I've got three kids right now. They are 16, 14, and 11. But when they were younger, it started with my oldest. He would ask me about Korea. He would ask me about my first family, and he, I'm trying to remember what specific questions he asked because all three of them asked different sets of questions. What I was, I found very interesting, he focused more on my birth mom and being sad that I didn't know her and that he didn't know her.

And I remember when he brought it up, I don't, again, I don't remember the exact question. I just remember being caught off guard. Oh that's not even something that I talk to you about. Or like I bring up, honestly. His birth is what set me on this whole journey of going through, like really looking at, being adopted, what that means to me.

And so then when my second son came and he asked questions about my biological father, and that caught me off guard because I didn't really, we talked so much about mothers and not so much fathers, that caught me off guard. And he asked questions and, between the two of them I was like, I answer them with, I don't know.

And I'm very careful with how to tell 'em, I don't know, I don't make up lies for them. I don't do anything. If I do ask them what are they thinking of? And having those two experiences made me think about what would it be like when, what was it like when I asked those kinds of questions. Because they act pre, like pre-conscious.

They were probably four or five when they first started asking questions. And I thought that's how I knew not to ask any questions. Because even now, if I bring it up, they, to be honest, Haley, my parents, they don't even know what I do for KAAN. I don't even think that they know that can exists cuz they don't ask.

I, I've tried, I've given it out. I and there's nothing. So I just think that was there before. So I just think about, okay, that's, I had to have been dismissed, had to have gotten the notion somehow because kids are so observant of their, of people's reaction. So any slight reaction. Is going to give that idea of, oh, I shouldn't ask that.

Oh, that's not safe to talk about. Oh, mom, dad, they don't wanna talk about that, so I'm just not gonna say anything. And the same thing happened with my daughter when she was, start asking questions. And her questions are, I don't know if they're, yeah, there are questions and also demands. And I laugh because it'd be random, like driving the place and she'd ask me about my birth mom and why don't we know her?

Why can't, why don't you remember? She was really stuck on that. Like, why don't you remember her? I don't get it. And that makes, you should know where you were born. You saw it like, why can't we just go there? It made her so mad, like a little three year old, so mad. And actually all three of them came to the conclusion, I think this is the point I'm processing through and remembering all three of them came to the conclusion and asked me if they had died.

And I said, I don't know. And I thought about it and I thought yeah, to them that would be the only logical reason why I would be separated. That's the only thing that makes sense to them. And just putting it in like a child's mind and understanding that, and then thinking of myself right at that age, like for me, when they were asking questions, it was, this is a very natural process for children who are adopted or have that in their life.

Ask questions to want to understand because they have a child's mind. Now how that gets weaved into the story that parents tell is a whole other thing. And I have absolutely no idea if I answered your question.

Haley Radke: I No, I asked about in your dissertation and about these, women who as children already felt this innate need to protect their adoptive parents from the pain they were experiencing. And for me, I see that as this underlying need, of it's not about a home for us, it's about family building in a different way and Yeah.

Katie Bozek: Yeah. And how that gets, it's not, it's again, our story. How does that become our story? And what happens when all that collides in that moment of a child asking about their family, their first family, and what is the response to that? Is that validated? Do adoptive parents get mad? How is that handled? Because kids are gonna take that and learn from that.

Haley Radke: I'm not sure where to go next. Are you comfortable talking about your adoptive parents a bit because I feel like I was gonna poke there, but I don't want to if it's ...

Katie Bozek: I guess it depends on what you wanna ask. There's not really, I have pretty firm boundaries with them where, people would look at me and say, I don't really have a relationship with them. They're not the most healthy emotionally to do that. And that's something I've learned over the years. And it's something I'm, I continually try to navigate because, it's one thing for me. I never want to deny them a relationship with my kids, but at the same time, I also want to protect them from some of the, some of those repeated patterns.

So it's like constantly, ugh, what do I do? And it's not always like the, there's the emotional part too. My dad is still very much of the mindset of the colorblindness model, and that is very opposite of what my husband and I teach my kids, which, and my husband is white, so my kids are biracial and we have those difficult talks.

We are very honest about that. And that is not something that my parents do at all. So that is also, that's been tricky over the years. Because I feel like I put a lot responsibility on my kids when like my dad will gloss over something or say something more on the racist lines or just not knowing, just being ignorant. And they are much more aware and have those conversations.

Haley Radke: Thank you for your candor in that.

Katie Bozek: Yeah.

Haley Radke: Yeah. I was, gonna express some form of, me included, a lot of us are estranged from our adoptive parents. Because for whatever reason, the more boundaries that we've put up, they're not respected. Or we just don't have the capacity to do this anymore.

And, we're just trying to maintain some sort of personal safety and frankly, sanity because it's a heavy weight to carry everyone else's expectations. When we're just trying to figure out who am I? Who am I still? Yeah. In my thirties, who am I?

Katie Bozek: And it's still it's hard. It's so. Sorry. My brain's like exploding there. There's a lot of different layers because I think it's very easy for outsiders and also for people within the system to say, oh, you just need to accept that we're your family and you're adopted. And just be okay with it. And be happy and not have questions and not feel any of the other feelings.

And that's the message, going forward. But that is only one narrative. I think the parents who are able to accept that there are multiple narratives there and that one is that their's is not the most important all of the time, that lends itself to more healing, to more conversation, to more emotional availability on both sides.

And that starts going right back to what I was talking about with the kids is how is the parent able to hold onto their own feelings and to be able to say, okay, tell me more. This is about what's going on for you. And that is a, that's a skill not just for adoptees, but just in general.

So I was giving this example, the other, I'm gonna say the other day, but I actually mean the other month. So we, we moved four months ago and my daughter was having the most difficult time, like to the point where even today she refuses to call the new home, home. That's the new house. Her home is where we used to live. Totally fine. Totally fine. Okay. And there was a day where she was really missing her home and crying and just telling me she was having a really hard.

And it would be very easy as a parent to say Yes, but look at all these great new things here and at the new house you get this and that and all of this and you know it's so great here and blah blah blah. That would be missing the point. The point is you really miss your home and you're really sad today and that's ok.

I can see how you would miss your home. Doing that kind of process is what builds that relationship and that safety and the relationship. Whether it's talking about adoption or moving or someone making fun of me at school or anything else. It's can you set aside your own?

Because inside I, my first reaction was, are you kidding me? We bought this beautiful house and you're not happy. Not really. I totally get it. But it's like that process, that, that skill a lot of parents, sometimes that's hard for parents to, to do. I get it, but doesn't make it right when they don't.

Haley Radke: I flagged this thing that you said earlier that you were like, I don't lie to them. I don't make up stories. And I'm like, absolutely. We don't even do Santa at my house because of that very reason. What, because as an adopted person, I just wanted the truth all the way along. And every time I discovered another lie, be it Santa Claus or whatever manufactured story was on my government paperwork, it was just one more see, this is not trustworthy. And I don't wanna have any of that with my kids. I wonder how many of us have that sort of feeling as parents adoptees who are parents.

Katie Bozek: Yeah. Oh, I'm sure. And that's the thing, is like it manifests in so many different ways. Is our experiences as kids and like what is so important, why it's so important to us.

Haley Radke: I wanna switch, let's talk about connecting with fellow adoptees.

Katie Bozek: Yes.

Haley Radke: So what did that look like in adulthood for you?

Katie Bozek: Ooh. Oh, so like I said, my whole like adoption journey where I am today. No, I back up. It's always been part of me. But I really put a lot of work and intention into it after my son was born.

After he was born, it was, I think we brought him home two, we were home two or three days later, and I had laid him down on the floor and he just started crying and flailing his arms. And I immediately just immediately flashed two thoughts of that's what I must have looked like when I was left. Cause I was found quote unquote near a police station.

I don't even know if that's true or what that means. And from that moment on, I've been on this journey to understand. To, to heal, to connect to all of that. So from that, at that point, I knew of knew adopting, I'm trying. Healing there. I was in graduate school at that time. So actually doing some of these interviews was help, was really hard cuz I didn't know a whole lot. But also really helpful in healing because there was a lot of things that I could connect with and what they were sharing with me.

And then some I stayed in contact with afterwards. And then at that, I don't remember how everything came together or what years it was. I started to do, I don't remember how I got roped into it. And I say I use the word roped specifically because it was doing panels for adoptive parents, prospective adoptive parents.

Haley Radke: Oh, no.

Katie Bozek: But, I know. I think about so early in my journey and just wanting to share my story and share with them that it's not all roses and rainbows and you have to do a lot of work.

So I took out very much on, You have to do the work.

Haley Radke: That's interesting, Katie, because you obviously were already very aware at that point then, because I've talked to many adoptees who were involved in those kinds of things. Who were still saying it's all good.

Katie Bozek: Oh, no. Oh God, no.

Haley Radke: As a sense of self-protection.

Katie Bozek: Yeah, and I was very fortunate because it's horrible because I've lived a long life, Haley, not old. I've lived a long life. I don't exactly remember how I became friends with the friends that I did the panels with, but I'm still friends with them. And we were all of the same mindset that no, you parents have to do the work, you have to do this.

At one point, the last panel I ever did, and it makes me cringe now cuz, I did the panels for Bethany Christian Services. Yeah. See? Yeah, cringey. The last panel we did was at a big like company-wide luncheon and I told them all that they are a business. And the sooner you understand that you are a business and you are in the business of selling children, you will do your jobs better. There were crickets and I was never invited back, and I am okay with that.

Haley Radke: There's somebody in their car being like, good for you, Katie. They're like,

Katie Bozek: But it, through being able to do that and to share those kinds of experiences and to reflect. And then, yeah, just added a few more. I went to, I went to KAAN in 2013 because it was in Grand Rapids, and one of my friends who was a friend of a friend was helping with the local logistics. And so we, oh, and then. That's right. Sorry. It's like all blurring, trying to remember like the timeline of things.

I started going to, at some point we had a Michigan adult adoptee group that was started 20 years ago, and they would meet for dinner once a month around the state, and it was open to all adoptees. By the time that I started going, it was more mostly just Korean adoptees.

And then, so we did that for several years. And then with KAAN we presented on the group. I think I presented on something else too. I don't remember. So it's been like all these, like different opportunities here and there that have come along, that I've taken and just expanded my people. I don't know what else to say.

I don't wanna say network because that sounds like I'm using them, but. Like my people, my tribe. Even during my dissertation, like I just think about the people that I still in contact through, through that, but also just how new it was then. Or I didn't have a chairperson. I had a chairperson who had done some work in domestic adoption, but not transracial adoption.

And so even like thinking back then oh, where we are today with information, with research, with understanding, I'm so different.

Haley Radke: I just think about how things have exploded in the last five to 10 years of accessibility and connectivity for the adoptee community in particular has been really amazing.

Good and bad. Good and bad.

Katie Bozek: Yeah. As with everything with technology, and I think there is... what I think about now with that is how do I, how do we ground ourselves and where we came from and all the work that's already been done and continue to move forward? Meaning, before the internet, before phones, before TikTok, before Instagram, before all of that adoptees were already gathering, we're already having these conversations.

They were starting to do research, starting to use our voices, starting to do all of this foundational groundwork. And so sometimes when I see some of these, I call 'em, like adoptee influencers out there who are like talking and reflecting about their stories. I want to just send them a list of all the resources that, okay, this is not a new conversation.

I'm so glad that you're realizing this. But I want you to ground it now in what has come before you so that we can collectively move together to the next phase of whatever that may look like together. How we connect, how we talk, what are the conversations now? Because it's not just our own experience as adoptees.

What does that look like for our children? What does that look like when we become grandparents? What does that mean? We know adoption is a lifelong journey. Quotes or quotes, but what does that actually mean relationally? And for our stories, how does it, you were talking about what is important to you and having the truth.

That was really important to me when I told my kids about my adoption. And when we talk about that, that we are 100% honest that I don't know. And I will tell you, I don't know, because I cannot lie to you because I don't want to lie to you about that.

Haley Radke: Yeah. It was so important. I absolutely agree about honoring the critical adoption advocates who have done all the work for us to join in with them along the way. Absolutely. I want to talk about KAAN now. So in 2018, you became the executive director, and you said your, the first time you met was in 2013. Yep. Do you wanna talk about what does KAAN stand for? How did you become the executive director? Why is it important to you? I'd love to hear all about it.

Katie Bozek: Yeah. So 2013 is when I first went and grown up. And so then I went back in 2016. They were in Pennsylvania, Pittsburgh. And I presented on two panels. And then in 2018 let me back up.

So locally there was a group, West Michigan Asian American Association, and I, there was an adoptee who my husband was, has been friends with for years and years. And he kept telling me that I could be on the board. So I got on the board. That was a huge thing to be around all these, quote unquote real Asian. And the executive director, when she found out I was an adoptee, she had someone who had just moved into the area and who had reached out to her, wanted to be involved.

And that is Kimberly McKee.

Haley Radke: Oh, see, I got Disrupting Kinship it's over here. Right there.

Katie Bozek: Oh yeah. Everyone knows Kim. And so her and I, we like to joke because the executive director of WM AAA set us up on our first friend date. And so we've been friends ever since. And and she was very heavily involved.

She was the assistant director of KAAN before, so in 2017 she had reached out and let me know that they were looking for a new executive director. And I said, oh wow. I can't believe Stacy's stepping down. Just that conversation. And then a little bit later it was, Katie, you should think about applying, be the executive director.

Oh, Kim I don't have enough time. Like I no that's too much. That's, yeah, too much. I don't think I would be good at that. All of that stuff. And then it was, again, Katie thinking about applying, all right I'm sure there's gonna be less people, and I highly doubt that I would get it. Sure I'll apply. And lo and behold, they wanted to have an interview and I. Said, okay, I will do this. Not knowing exactly what it would all entail, but I think that is with anything that we do, we dunno exactly what we're getting ourselves into. And so now 2018 officially started the September, 2018 and had our first in-person, my first in-person running at conference in 2019.

And then in 2020 obviously we had to shut it down and we pivoted and did an online event. And then again in 2021 did an online, a virtual conference online. And then last year it was our first return to in-person conference. And I think the, I'm not sure I can put into words. What it means to me, because honestly at first when I took it, it was, okay, yes, KAAN needs a new executive director.

I can do that. That's typically how my brain works. If there's a need to be filled, then okay, I'll jump in what needs to be done, I can do this. But being in this, I hold it very it is a privilege.

I'm gonna divert for a second and then I promise I'm gonna come back. Okay. So I think about my, what I do as a therapist as a privilege. I hold it very sacred because I am seeing people at their worst, at their breaking points when they are struggling the most. I hold that very, I hold my responsibility to hear that, to be present with them during that as a privilege, as a responsibility. I do not take that lightly. I do not think of it as a job.

I don't think of it as a career. I don't know what to place it as. But that's how I, that's how I also think about KAAN and the more that I am in it, the more that I am talk to people and hear people in their stories of how KAAN has impacted them. That's how I think about it. It's more than a job.

It's more than something that I do. I don't think I have a word to describe that, but I think that's how it is for those of us who do this kind of work, because we all do it on a volunteer basis, and I don't think people really understand what that means. Yeah, sure. I don't get paid for that, but that also means that I will go through a full clinical day and then I'll do a meeting at night or host an event or do emails or some theme.

It's more than just putting things together. It's trying to explain to someone why we do what we do. It. It's so many different things. And it means so much because when I hear people and I see people at the conference or get emails of how KAAN has impacted them. It's just like, people need to have this space.

And it's, I think about social media influencers as starting the conversation. Getting people to like start to think differently. And then I think about the different organizations that are providing different cultural activities, connecting with each other, doing, those social aspects.

And I think about KAAN as this is where we have the really hard conversation about adoption. About what it means to be an adoptee, what it feels like, looks like. That's where we have the tough conversations that we need to have a space to have those tough conversations. And I think that's taken me a few years to get to understand like just what KAAN is within the community of the different adoptee organizations out there is that this is where you have the tough conversations.

It's not an easy space to be. Okay. And that to me, again, that's where I think about like how I view therapy and also this is where people are coming and really being vulnerable because they're not having these kinds of conversations every single day. That's too draining. That's what therapists do, right?

And so I think it's, I had one person come to me last year and just thank me for the conference and for KAAN, and it's not just me. Mind you, it is not me. There's, there was a team behind me that they do the work, right? This is a very much a team effort. Most of it reminded me what I need to do and this person came up and.

Was very teary-eyed and just said that, and I'm not joking person said that we saved their life. And that to me, like I will never say that's what we do, but to hear someone else say that, to know that's the kind of impact that we have. Yeah, I'm gonna keep doing this and make sure we can keep, having space for these tough conversations.

And KAAN is the Korean American Adoptee Adopted Family Network but Stacy Schroer, the executive director before me, hadn't started to move toward, we are open to anyone. You do not have to be just Korean to come. So we have domestic adoptees, adopted from other countries. Anyone who is an adoptee who meets this kind of space as welcome.

And embraced. Not just welcomed.

Haley Radke: I love seeing an organization that leads from the adoptee perspective. Adoptees are the experts. This most of the speakers. And what you've heard from Katie in this like progression that you've talked about, the history to having these hard conversations about whatever it is, parenting, mental health passing on what your ethnic identity looks like to now your own biological children as an adopted person. These are the topics that are getting covered at your conference. And I feel like your event I've watched it through the years. I've never been able to attend. I was invited, I had a really terrible conference experience.

Not at yours, at another event. Whew. I'm not gonna dredge that all up. But it was not good. And so I swore off the conference experience for myself for my own mental health for a while as a presenter. But I've been attending virtual adoption conferences cuz I like to stay up to date with things.

I'm always looking for new guests, you know how it is. And it doesn't matter which event I've gone to, there's always so much like how to adopt and adoptive parents leading things and saying, oh, we need to be listening to adoptee voices, but they're still the ones presenting or whatever. And I, you just, I'm just like, but wait, I'm like then step aside, ma'am.

So I've really appreciated that. And another thing that you won't know this piece either, but, I remember after having that horrific conference experience a number of years ago, I was talking to a fellow adoptee and I was like, oh my gosh, these conferences have gotta get it together. What is happening? Like, where is the safety? We're talking about triggering topics and what's going on here?

And she was like the KAAN policy is really clear. So you have all of these safety things built into your conference policy about expectations from both presenters and attendees.

And I remember looking at that and thinking wow, like they're really taking care of the safety of everyone. So I really appreciate that too because we're talking about those really in-depth things. So do you wanna speak to that a little bit? Because I know that I probably have scared a few people from gonna to conferences since I shared that experience a few years ago, which was as a presenter, I had a someone in the session give a verbal attack which was not great. So just for context.

Katie Bozek: Oh, that's very concerning and I'm very sorry about that. And I'm sorry no one stood up for you.

Haley Radke: It was another presenter That was the person that was yeah.

Katie Bozek: Presenting with you?

Haley Radke: No.

Katie Bozek: Oh, that's interesting because like you said, we have lots of safeties and we have a lot of expectations for how people will conduct themselves. And we did have two incidents last year unfortunately, where people were escorted out, where the people, the participant said, no, you do not, this is not your space. You need to leave. And they were escorted out because it needs to be safe for everyone. And if you are not, if you are not listening to others, then we will not, it's not tolerated at all.

And we do have, and that's why I feel so, I'm so sorry that no one stuck up for you and said, you are, this is not right. This is not how it's supposed to be.

Haley Radke: There, there were people in the room that later have expressed to me like we were all in freeze mode cuz it was just so outrageous. Like it was just like, it's just was just like a group paralysis, there's no hard feelings on anyone that didn't stand up cuz it was really a shocking sort of thing.

Katie Bozek: Yeah. And I think there's definitely a difference between being adoptee- led, adoptee centered organization doing a conference for adoptees versus doing the conference on adoption. I think those are two very different things, right? We are not an adoption conference. We are a conference for adoptees. That is what we are. That is what we are about. We do allow non adoptees into certain spaces. Not all. Because there is value in being able to listen and to learn, but like you said, we do have strong policies and expectations that if people are not being respected, you will not be allowed in that space.

We have, and this is something that Stacy had put in place years ago, was adoptee only sessions. So it's a safe space for all adoptees to be able to talk about whatever is going on in the session. One of the policies, even with our technology now and our ability to record and to do, live streaming and things like that, what I stand behind is we will not record anything.

We do not record our sessions. We do not record our virtual events or anything because I want to protect that safety, that people feel that nothing is going to be used without their consent. That it's not just out there. And I stand by that pretty firmly because, like you said, we want to feel safe.

So we do everything that we can in order to do that. How we work is we, for, on our registration, we identify those who are first time attendees and we send out a certain e we send out special emails to them. We will have, we started this last year cuz we're in person again last, or for the first time last year, have a virtual meet and greet with first timers to explain this is what you can expect.

Also, if you're here, if you're going on your own, like you can meet other people in this space. And we also have that Friday at the beginning of the conference, the space for first time attending to reiterate, this is what you can expect, meet some people.

And then there's also a debrief. A short debrief time on Sunday for anyone who just wants to debrief and talk or listen about the weekend because it's heavy. It's a heavy weekend. So those are just, some of the things that we are, we do to try to make sure that those who have not been there before feel supported. Not that we don't support those who have been there multiple times.

Haley Radke: Absolutely. Yeah. No, I totally get what you're saying. Okay. So you're in Illinois this year?

Katie Bozek: Yes, we are in Rosemont, Illinois this year. Okay. The Weston O'Hare. We are right near the O'Hare Airport. Close to the blue line. Go downtown.

Yeah. I'm excited. I'm excited for it. Although it does raise my anxiety as well, but mostly

Haley Radke: I used to work for an organization that put on giant conferences, like with 10 to 15,000 people, so the stress level of events, it's Woo. Yeah. Very real to me. But we'll link to the registration info and everything for everyone.

If you're listening, when this drops the conference is June 30th, July 2nd, 2023. But of course you're a yearly event and you've got all the sessions up already that people can check out. I God, this, some of the, these look so good. I don't like that you don't record them. What would just be, I'll say that cuz I won't be able to see these.

Katie Bozek: But we've gone back, we've gone back and forth and we come back to what is the safety of our attendees.

Haley Radke: Absolutely. I know, I'm just giving a little, I know bias for Canada because flights down there are not exactly always a great rate.

Katie Bozek: So a friend of mine, Michael Steelman, he is with the Korean Adoptees of Canada. He is from, oh no, Toronto. He's driving down so he drive to down, although I don't know where in Canada, that's a really long trip, but, okay.

Haley Radke: Okay, tell us where we can connect with you online and find out information about the conference while I Google how long it would be to drive from where I live to the conference. Just for funsies.

Katie Bozek: You can find all the information that you need about the conference and social media and all the things at www.wearekaan.org.

And KAAN is K A A N..

Haley Radke: And what about folks who are looking for a great therapist?

Katie Bozek: Oh, no. Unfortunately.

Haley Radke: You're booked. No.

Katie Bozek: Yeah, I think pretty much every clinician since the pandemic has been.

Haley Radke: Isn't that sad? I know it's hard. It's, we can go on your wait list. We'll link to your website.

Katie Bozek: We can go on. Oh, my business website. I'm a therapist. I'm not a business person. That website is Oh, old. It's old Haley.

Haley Radke: All right. If you ever feel like flying up to Edmonton and driving down with me to Rosemont, Illinois will take you 25 hours without stops. Oh. So it's not really quite in the cards for me.

Katie Bozek: Maybe not this year. We can connect and figure it out for next year. Maybe a big rv if you're getting enough people. We want to come next year. We're still in Rosemont next year, have an RV trip.

Haley Radke: Okay. Okay. Sounds good. We wanted to talk about KAAN as our recommended resource for you all today. And so I hope that if that sounds interesting to you, if you're looking to connect with fellow adoptees in an adoptee led space, this is a great choice.

Thank you so much, Katie, for talking with me today.

Katie Bozek: Thank you. I really appreciate you having me on and for listening to my story.

Haley Radke: I had so much fun talking with Katie. I don't know if that came across, but we had a really great time. Thank you so much Katie for talking with us and if you decide to go to KAAN because of our episode, make sure you let them know when you register. I wanna see how many Adoptees On listeners attend.

I am really thrilled about the virtual ways we have been building community over on Adoptees On the Patreon side of things, we have a weekly podcast episode. We have book clubs, we have off-script parties, which are Zoom parties and all of those things. Over time, it really has built some really incredible friendships, but for me, and also for listeners who just wanna connect with other fellow adoptees who are unpacking what impact adoption has had on our lives.

Some folks are navigating reunion stuff. Some folks are not even sure if they wanna search, and a lot of us are talking about advocacy and what it looks like to tell the whole truth about adoption in our everyday, everyday lives. And there's a cost to that. Yeah, those are a lot of the topics that we cover on Adoptees On Patreon.

So if you are interested in becoming a patron of the show, you can pay yearly or monthly. Adopteeson.com/community has details of all the things you'll get if you join us. And this month we are reading Harrison Mooney's Memoir Invisible Boy, which is so very good. And we're really excited to welcome Harrison to a live Zoom at the very beginning of May to talk about his book with us, with our book club, though we are interested in that adopteeson.com/bookclub as details of that and some of the other books we'll be reading this year.

Love to have you join us and your support is what makes this show keep existing in the world. Thanks so much for listening. Let's talk again next Friday.