42 Tracy - I Was a Disappointment to Her

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/42


Haley Radke: You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. This is Season 3, Episode 3: Tracy. I'm your host, Haley Radke. Today, we discuss what happens when you search for your origins and find out you're too late. Tracy shares some painful stories about what her childhood experience of growing up with a narcissistic mother was like, and we wrap up with a great discussion about fostering creativity in ourselves and how that can lead to resilience and move us towards healing.

As always, links to all of the things we'll be talking about today are on the website adopteeson.com. Let's listen in.

I'm so pleased to welcome to Adoptees On, Tracy Aabey-Hammond. Welcome to the show, Tracy.

Tracy Aabey-Hammond: Hi, Haley. I'm really excited to be here and thank you for the opportunity.

Haley Radke: Oh, I'm so excited to chat with you. You are a metalsmith and you make the most beautiful adoption pendants. I'm wearing it right now and I've had so many compliments on it. So we'll get to that in a bit, but I just would love it if you would share your story with us.

Tracy Aabey-Hammond: I'm a Baby Scoop Era adoptee. I did not have the best home. It was an abusive home. I haven't had any contact with my adoptive parents since 2006, when they disowned me. I did enter into reunion with my family in 2013. Unfortunately, both of my parents were dead by then. My mother had died in her 50s, from cancer.

My father tragically died at the age of 25, in 1972, when I was only 2 years old. But, with that, I did come into a large— (on my mother's side), a very large family. My mom was the eldest of seven. I've been welcomed by all of my aunts, and uncles, and cousins. On my paternal side, it's a little bit more tragic. I only have one surviving uncle and a couple of cousins.

With my paternal family, I am a first generation American. My father was actually born in Germany, post World War II. My paternal grandparents were both inmates at Dachau Concentration Camp. So, for family history, you know, it kind of is difficult. There isn't much there. World War II really kind of decimated Poland and Germany. My family is from what is now Belarus, which is south of Minsk, and it's, you know, not exactly your “Johnny knocked up Mary Jane at the prom" kind of adoption story by any means.

It is what it is. We never know when we seek out in reunion what we will find. But there are always lessons that we can learn. And for me, it's been about resilience.

Haley Radke: How did you search and how did you find?

Tracy Aabey-Hammond: I'm lucky. I'm from Illinois, which in 2010, opened up sealed birth certificates for adoptees (the original birth certificates). So mine was unsealed, but I had contacted the adoption agency that I came from (which is The Cradle in Evanston). Come to find out, I had contacted more background information, non-identifying information, and two of my aunts had left word that my mother had died, and left their contact information for me.

I ended up having to pay the adoption agency to find my father's family. And that took several months for them to do. They ended up being in Wisconsin, but it took them some time to track them down and get a response, because nobody knew about me.

Haley Radke: Oh, on your paternal side.

Tracy Aabey-Hammond: On my paternal side. On my maternal side, my grandmother had made a point of telling each of her children about me. So I was never a secret. Everybody knew about me, but on my paternal side, my father was unaware that I existed. And, you know, he died in 1972. I was two years old. There was really no way for him to know.

Haley Radke: Yeah. So when you got your maternal information, you contacted your aunts?

Tracy Aabey-Hammond: Yeah. I was automatically— As soon as I had had that meeting with the facilitator of the adoption agency, she gave me one of my aunt's phone number, address, and email address, immediately (with the information that my mother was dead).

You know, I had a way to be able to contact somebody in my maternal family. But the funny thing was, is they wouldn't tell me my mother's name. It's comical, really, if you think about it. Where my aunts had left a release of information, but they still— The adoption agency still wouldn't tell me who my mother was, but they told me my aunt's name. And then I applied for my birth certificate.

Haley Radke: Of course! Why wouldn't it be that bizarre? Goodness.

Tracy Aabey-Hammond: I know. I know. It was just kind of—I was just sort of puzzled. I'm like, “You're kidding me, right?”

“We can't tell you that.”

I'm like, “They sent you my mother's death certificate for a reason. You can't tell me her name on it?”

So I don't know. It's kind of… Adoption is quirky. And you know, I'm still shaking my head about that one.

Haley Radke: Oh my goodness. Well, can I ask, how does it feel… I guess, what prompted your search? And then how does it feel when you find and they're both deceased?

Tracy Aabey-Hammond: What prompted my search was— I was always going to search, but my adoptive mother was a roadblock. We had a very, I want to say, a relationship that was very strained and she was very controlling. She's a narcissist and she liked to control and destroy anything that had any meaning to me. So, I always knew that if I was going to seek out my biological family, that I would need to make sure that she wasn't involved.

When our relationship imploded in 2006, I gave it some time before I decided to make contact with my biological family, knowing that she would not take it well. If somehow our relationship were to be salvaged, (which I knew, you know, by that time, I knew it would not be). The modus operandi of that family was, if you stood up for yourself, they were done with you. If you complained about their behavior, or the way they acted towards you, they got rid of you. You were no longer their friend.

They would go through so many acquaintances, because somebody would object to the way that they were treating them and, you know, they would then end that friendship. And I watched them cycle through so many people because of that. So I knew when I stood up to them and I complained about their treatment, I knew that that would happen. So I gave it some time.

On Mother's Day in 2013, I went ahead and I filled out the paperwork to go ahead and get my non-identifying information and to just start. I wasn't even aware that OBCs had been released in Illinois, three years prior. So that's how it started.

And my husband had always been incredibly supportive. He'd always felt bad that I had done a lot of genealogy work for him over a decade (or even longer). And I traced his family down certain branches, hundreds and hundreds of years. And made all of these breakthroughs for him on some of his lines, going back, you know— He's a descendant of King Henry IV. His family never knew that. So he had always said to me, “When the time comes, if you want to search, you know, it'd be nice if you'd be able to make your own family tree.”

I just, you know, I just did it. I realized that my relationship with my adoptive family was over, and it was time to move on, and to find out who I really was. So when you get the information… Well, I had a very— It was shocking to hear that my mother was gone. I had always just thought that when I was ready, she would be there.

So the fact that she wasn't, was shocking and it was upsetting. You know, my mom died in 2001. I had left the state that my adoptive family lives in. They live in Illinois and I'd moved to Cincinnati, Ohio in 1997. So technically, I could have made contact and just kept them out of it, but I wasn't strong enough. So in that sense, you know, I did miss the opportunity to meet my mother.

So, when I meet adoptees who are hemming and hawing about reunion, you know, I use myself as a cautionary tale. I would honestly have one conversation and have my mother reject me, or at least be able to meet her once and have her reject me, than to never had the opportunity to actually meet her or speak to her.

Haley Radke: Was meeting your adoptee aunts any consolation? Did they fill in any blanks for you? How did that go?

Tracy Aabey-Hammond: Yeah. I mean, I'm embracing whatever family I have left. And yes, they have welcomed me with open arms. I've gotten, you know— I've attended family weddings. When different people have died in the family, somebody always makes a point to call me, let me know if there's going to be a funeral service, make sure that I know that I'm welcome to come out. Mundane things like a baby shower…

So you know, they've been very inclusive and very welcoming. So I'm very, very lucky in that sense. I know that a lot of adoptees have dealt with secondary rejection. And I consider myself to be very lucky. I haven't had to deal with that.

Haley Radke: Thanks for sharing about that. You mentioned that your adoptive mother was a narcissist. Can you tell us a little bit more about that? About your childhood and your interactions with her?

Tracy Aabey-Hammond: It's an interesting story. My adoptive mother is in fact, herself, an adoptee (an inter-family adoptee). She was raised by her second cousin and she did not find out that she was adopted until she was 16. She was somewhat of a late discovery adoptee, too. And she had talked about, you know, how that felt, going to a family funeral and knowing that, like her grandfather was there (her biological grandfather). And that she was there with people who she was more closely related to.

And I think, you know, that that definitely played a part in her psychology. She actually met her— She had three biological siblings, and she was the only one who was adopted. What had happened was her father had been diagnosed with leukemia, and he was dying. And his wife was pregnant at the time, and they had already had three children. And he talked his wife into surrendering my adoptive mother to his first cousin. He had said, you know, “Mildred has never been able to have kids. Give the baby to Mildred.”

She went ahead and she surrendered. So the other kept siblings had known that their mom was pregnant and then suddenly, you know, she wasn't. And the baby disappeared. She went back on to marry again and have another child. And I knew my mother had hard feelings because, you know, she wasn't the only child. She was the only child that had been surrendered. She wasn't kept.

So I, as a 9 or 10 year old, I was able to sit back and see her reunion. I was there in the room when she met her mother and her grandmother for the first time. Her mother was kind of cold towards her, and had made the comment that, “Curiosity killed the cat,” to my mother (in relation to seeking them out).

So that, you know… I was 9 or 10. So that really left an impression. I think that that kind of was in the back of my head, coming to my own reunion. And maybe why I delayed, you know, making sure that I was ready, because, you know, I saw that.

On the other hand, her grandmother was hysterical, and would talk about her daughter. She would say, “She enjoyed having sex, but she didn't necessarily like the children that came with it.” So, Grandma Bentley was quite a character. And she'd always tell it like it was (to very impressionable 9 or 10 year old ears).

Haley Radke: Oh my gosh. [laughs]

Tracy Aabey-Hammond: I know. So, with my mother… Basically, they had tried for many years to have children. They ended up adopting my brother first, and then six years later, me.

I was a disappointment to her from the very beginning, whereas my adopted brother was an easy, carefree baby. He only cried when he was tired or hungry. I came and I was already, you know, damaged goods. I had been sitting in the adoption agency nursery for a couple of months. I had had surgery for an umbilical hernia. So I was a couple months old by the time I came to them.

And as my mother had (my adoptive mother) had put it, you know, I cried constantly. And I was a bad baby and whatnot. So our relationship sort of started off tenuous, where I really wasn't what she wanted. And she had talked about the fact that she had thought about taking me back to the adoption agency when I was older. So it was kind of like that kind of relationship: love/hate.

Haley Radke: When you say you were older (when she was talking about bringing you back to the agency), how old were you?

Tracy Aabey-Hammond: Well, she had told me that she had thought about it when I was an infant, but she disclosed this to me, I was probably about like 9 or 10 or 11. Some of the things that they would do to me would be, when I was about 10 years old, I started having issues in school. I was diagnosed with learning disabilities. I was like a poster child for adoption issues. If it's on a list, I've kind of exhibited it.

When I was about 9, 10 years old, my adoptive mother— I was going through a little bit of separation anxiety, a fear of getting separated or lost from them when we were in public. And she was really annoyed by it. So she felt the best way to deal with that would be to teach me a lesson. And we were in a mall parking lot. She tapped my adoptive father on the shoulder and they ran ahead of me to the car, jumped in, locked the doors, and drove off. And left me in the parking lot. So I just stood there, right where they had been.

I didn't really think that they were going to leave and they did. Five, ten minutes passes… And I'm running through my mind, Do I know where I am? I'd taken the bus once with my adoptive brother to the mall. I was at a different mall, but I knew that if I could find a bus station, I could make my way home because I knew there was a bus stop near the house. I didn't have any money on me.

I'm kind of running through all of these things, and I'm kind of disassociating. I'm not crying. I'm keeping it together, but a lot of things are running through my head. And they come back. And as they drive up, they unlock the door and let me in. And when I open that door, I'm greeted with the sound of laughter. They think this is the funniest thing that they've ever done.

You know, I tried to express the fact that I was really upset. I was always dismissed about my feelings. After this incident, I made sure that I saved any money I got, and I would carry it on me in case I would need to find my own way home.

They continued to try to abandon me in parking lots, but they only successfully drove off that one time. So, there were a lot of memories of them locking me out of the car, and me banging on the windows, begging to be let in. Eventually, they gave up on it. That's kind of like when things were really starting to go south. And I was about 9, 10 years old.

You know, to hear my adoptive mother tell it, “Well, we only left you once.”

“But you kept trying to do it. It was wrong.”

There are so many little incidents like that that just compile. So many, “Well, I only did it once.” But they just add up.

On my blog that I have, I've got a story. It's called “Tanning Beds and Fainting Spells.” And when I was in junior high, I cut my arm in a department store on a glass shelf. I brushed up against it and hit a chip out of it. And as I brought my arm up, I realized that it was much more serious than just a scratch. It actually cut down to the bone. It was about an inch-and-a-half to two-inch long wound that was very deep. And there was a vein running across my bone, and that was obviously an artery that kind of nicked it.

My adoptive mother was angry at me for getting hurt. Opted not for medical care in the form of an ambulance, but had decided that the store would pay for me to go to the doctor. Took that form, and then she says to me, “I've got this tanning appointment I don't want to miss. I'll take you to the doctor after I'm done. You're sure you don't feel anything?”

It had severed, you know, it was a very deep wound, and it had severed nerves. So I really didn't have any pain associated with the wound. I don't feel anything. So she sits me down in a chair for the next 45 minutes. She's tanning, you know, and I've got some napkins on my arm. I'm bleeding. She gets done.

We drive to the doctor's office. It's three o'clock. They're booked. We're gonna have to wait like 45 minutes to an hour. She doesn't want to wait. She looks at me and she's like, “Do you want stitches?” Obviously, she doesn't want me to get stitches. And I'm 12 and I'm thinking it's probably gonna hurt. “Okay...No. Is that the right answer?”

So we leave the doctor's office. I'm never examined by the doctor. I don't get any stitches. I don't get any kind of medical care. She takes me to the pharmacy. I end up paying for my own butterfly bandages and some Band-Aids, big Band-Aids. And that's like the extent of the medical care I get.

We go out to the car. And we get in and suddenly she has to lay down, because she's feeling faint because she doesn't handle medical issues very well. And I give her my best, You've got to be freaking kidding me look. So we're sitting there waiting while she recovers from her vapors. That was my adoptive mother, in a nutshell.

Haley Radke: Oh my goodness.

Tracy Aabey-Hammond: So, on my blog, there's a number of different stories, and people can read through them. I tried to take a humorous spin on it.

Haley Radke: How else can you look at it? You'd just be in a pit of despair.

Oh my goodness. I'm just sitting here in just, like, shock and disbelief. I'm so sorry you went through that. No words. No words I can say that are appropriate. Wow, wow.

Tracy Aabey-Hammond: Yeah, it is kind of, you know, you're just kind of, shake your head… And that was her and, you know, there's lots more stories that are on the blog. Some a little bit more graphic, some a little bit more violent, but you know, there's little vignettes of, you know, what it was like.

Haley Radke: Well, and it's interesting that you say that she's an adoptee also, because I've heard from many adoptees that were adopted by narcissistic mothers (in particular). So that's really interesting.

Okay, I'd love it if we could shift and talk about your creative work. So, you're a metalsmith. And like I said at the top, I have this beautiful pendant that you made.

Would you tell us a little bit about it? How you came up with the idea and, yeah, just kind of tell us a bit about your work?

Tracy Aabey-Hammond: Yeah. The adoption loss pendant. Several years ago, Kay Jewelers came out with an ad featuring one of those open heart pendants, but it was for an adoption gift. And the ad primarily focused on adoptive parents receiving this brand new spanking baby.

What the ad didn't show was anybody else. There was nothing else included. There was no first family, nothing. It was like this child just dropped down out of nowhere. And they completely ignored anything else other than these adoptive parents with this new, fresh baby. As a jeweler, I thought to myself, That's really tacky. Talk about adoption propaganda. We're just looking at this very single-sidedly.

I think it was on Claudia Corrigan D’Arcy’s site that they were talking about it. And a lot of first mothers were giving their input. And they were talking about, “Really, it should be a smashed up heart, a big chunk missing out of it.” And it sort of gave me inspiration, an emotional inspiration.

And I went into my studio and I pulled some components out of my scrap silver bag, things that were bound to be melted down and turned back into silver sheets. And I went rummaging through my silver scrap bag. And I had a heart that I kind of melted part of, and I had a broken setting for a trillion stone (which is featured in the pendants now). And I went ahead, and I went to work. And I compiled the components, and distressed it with a hammer, and sawed out, you know, cracks, took a chunk out of it.

The original pendant wasn't even a functional piece of jewelry, it was more a conceptual art statement because it was missing prongs. So I took, I created this, I really didn't even polish it. It's very raw, very rough. And I took a photo of it and I posted on Claudia's page and I said, “I give you the adoption pendant.”

And it was a visceral reaction from all of these first mothers and adoptees. They loved it. They loved it, because it was a physical representation of their internalized pain. And I was kind of blown away, because for me it was just sort of a conceptual art piece. It really wasn't meant to be a functional piece of jewelry. So people started asking within the hour if they could buy one.

And I took a look at the supplies I had on hand and I said, “Okay, I can do this. I can make a limited run of them. I have enough to make 20. I'll make 20 of these for you. It's going to take me some time. I have to go back into the studio, and I have to make this a functional, wearable piece of art, where the stone isn't going to fall out, and it isn't going to jab you to death.”

And I made the first 20, and that's all I was going to do. And the outpouring, it was incredible. People wanted them. So, I went ahead and despite there being some negative feedback about the pendant, the people who it actually meant the most to (the first mothers, the adoptees), they were the people that I was listening to.

It was everybody else in the adoption community: the adoptive parents, the adoptive professionals that were kind of negative about it. I just filtered them out and focused in on the core group, who the pendant would really speak to, and who it represented.

There's a lot of symbolism in the pendant. It's been hammered, it's got cracks in it. There's a chunk missing out of it, and that chunk actually represents the loss of a child for the first mother. I use (for the bulk of them), a trillion cut stone, which is a triangle cut. And I've got that, that's to represent the triad (that adoption's supposed to be).

I've got the stone put into the setting askew. It isn't set properly. It's kind of set sideways. Normally the points of the stone, the prongs cup it. Well I've got the prongs cupping the side, the long sides of the stone. So it's in backwards, basically. And that's to represent adoptees who feel like they don't really fit in with their adopted family, or the world (due to the loss of their identity).

One of the things that I had done— (because I really wasn't expecting people to want a pendant that wasn't perfect. When you're a metalsmith, it's all about buffing out scratches and making things beautiful). So this was such an imperfect item. I really was kind of blown away that people wanted it. And I've actually had requests for them to be beat up more. If something, if it isn't beat up more, if it isn't tarnished enough, occasionally I'll hear from somebody that they want it more beat up. They want it more tarnished, and I do aim to please.

I will beat the heck out of it for you, but… So the pendant kind of took off, by surprise. And one of the things that I wanted to do, is I wanted to make sure that the portion of the proceeds would go to an adoptee-related cause. Originally I was giving a portion of the proceeds to the Adoptee Rights Coalition. When SOS came about, it really spoke to me, knowing that my own mother, (had she had a resource like SOS), would have been able to keep and parent me. So a portion of the proceeds from my every pendant goes to SOS now.

Haley Radke: So that's SOS Adoption, which is run by Lynn Johnson, and it's a family preservation organization. And she helps mothers in temporary crisis realize that they can parent. And she has sisters on the ground in different states that she can ask to come in and bring some, you know, baby supplies if they need a diaper bag. Or I know she's given some money if there's a need for a new car seat or anything that the reason that they're in that crisis situation, (it's a temporary crisis), to help them decide that they can parent.

They're doing awesome work. Awesome work. Thank you. That's amazing. I love that you give a portion to them.

Tracy Aabey-Hammond: It's a great organization. What I love especially is that they will help a first parent out dealing with the adoptive parents, or even the adoption agency. That they will step in and help you to deal with that.

Haley Radke: Right. Often these mothers that are in temporary crisis have already made an adoption plan. They're already working with an agency. They may have already placed their baby and Lynn will (like you said), she helps them do all the steps that they need to do within the law to get their baby back and/or to not place.

Because often, if an agency has given any sort of financial support to this expectant mother and the expectant mother changes their mind, the agency will come after them. And it's a very— it's all deceptive. It's such ugly, ugly stuff. And Lynn does an amazing job standing up, like helping these mothers stand up for themselves and say the things that legally they need to do to have the adoption stopped or reversed, whatever (depending on the state, right?).

Tracy Aabey-Hammond: Exactly. And there's so much coercion that goes on, especially if, you know, a mother is in the middle of an adoption plan and she changes her mind. A lot of agencies and potential adoptive parents will then say or do anything that they need to get her to change her mind back. Or put her into—turn the thumbscrews on her, with threat of a legal lawsuit if she took support from them, whether or not it's legal to do that in a state or not. They'll threaten it, trying to force her.

So it's a really wonderful organization that really supports first mothers and really helps them to be able to successfully parent their children, if they decide to back out of an adoption plan.

Haley Radke: Yeah, that's so great. Thank you. Thank you for doing that. I agree. Wonderful organization. I definitely support the work that Lynn is doing, and I'll put a link to the show notes for anyone that wants to go and make a contribution to SOS Adoption.

You can check out the Facebook page, because often, there will be a call for, like I said, “sisters on the ground.” So they might need somebody in Texas. So if you're in Texas, you can email and say, “Yes, I'm available. I can help.” So she's always looking for people, like volunteers, in that capacity.

Okay! So is there anything else you want to tell us about the adoption loss pendant before we move to the next section?

Tracy Aabey-Hammond: If anybody wants to see them, they were featured in Flip the Script: Adult Adoptee Anthology. Both styles of pendants were featured in there, as art. I consider the pendants to be art pieces, not necessarily jewelry. They are handmade. Each is individual. So it really is a piece of art, versus a piece of jewelry.

Haley Radke: And you have all the different birthstones available.

Tracy Aabey-Hammond: Yeah, I have all of the birthstones, or I have alternatives for some of them (like a diamond). Having been working with metal, and jewelry, and gems for 15 years now, I have quite an inventory of gemstones, and cabochons, and whatnot. I'm like bordering on being a hoarder at this point.

Haley Radke: So basically, someone could get whatever they want set in there.

Tracy Aabey-Hammond: Yeah, basically if, you know, whatever gemstone they want. I most likely have one and can set it.

Haley Radke: Oh my goodness. Well, I love scrolling through your Etsy store. So… Yeah, they’re just so moving.

Tracy, I would really like to talk to you about creativity and healing. So you mentioned while you were talking about your story, that you have all the things on the list that an adoptee could have, all the issues. You checked all the boxes.

So would you talk to us a little bit about how you feel using your creative artistic side has helped you heal certain areas? I know—we're all on the healing journey and we're not ever going to be 100% healed of our adoption trauma. But I'd love for you to talk a little bit about that, and any ideas you have for us that we could even… You know, some people are like, “Oh, I'm not really creative. I don't really… Oh, it's not really my thing.”

But any ideas you have for us to get started in that kind of area?

Tracy Aabey-Hammond: Oh, absolutely. For me, creativity and art has always been part of my life. My biological mother, first mother, loved the Art Institute of Chicago. I must have, in utero, really absorbed the paintings and art. Because I've always been highly creative, and really worked in many mediums from photography, to pottery, metalsmithing, painting, drawing, jewelry. And metalsmithing is really kind of where my passion settled.

But for me, art has always been a safe place that I can go and retreat from the world. Anywhere I have ever lived, I always make sure that I have a creative space. It doesn't have to be very big, but it does need to be a space that's only dedicated to creativity, to whatever art form you're going to choose. Make sure that you've got your supplies there, that you have good lighting. No clutter, nothing else from your life there. Maybe some plants by a window if possible. And just basically a space that's only dedicated to that.

One of the biggest things to keep in mind is that perfection doesn't exist. That's a fallacy. There is no such thing as perfection in nature. There are no straight lines in nature. So, if you're going to be creative, you need to silence your inner critic. Forget about anything being perfect, and just dedicate yourself solely to the task at hand.

The American Art Therapy Association talks about art that can unlock emotional expression by facilitating nonverbal communication. Visual imagery is the foundation of art therapy. Art allows you to focus emotions into a safe creative space. So much of our issues, so much of our trauma is internalized from adoption. By being able to channel that into art, being able to express those nonverbal emotions and feelings (a lot of it's pre-verbal, because we were infants), really allows you to be able to channel and express that in a very productive, safe way.

Nobody's going to be able to judge you. You don't have to worry about, you know, anybody saying anything to you. You can literally just put it on the canvas, or do it in clay, or, you know, in a sketchbook. Whatever media speaks to you. And basically, it's for you, this art.

You don't have to worry about somebody else seeing it. Don't worry if you can't draw very well. Carlynne Hershberger is another artist in the adoptee community. She's a painter, illustrator, and she teaches art. And one of the things that she'll do, is she'll just throw paint at a canvas, (literally). And whatever happens, happens. It might be good, it might be bad. She doesn't even think about it. She's just having that explosion of creative force.

When I made the adoption pendant, it was an explosion of creative force that I exerted. I didn't care what it looked like; I wasn't concentrating on that. I was just expressing the emotions that I felt. I just disconnected from my inner critic, and just made it. And I think that that is where the healing begins, that you're able to just express that like in a free form.

Not focusing on whether you're any good, if you have any ability. That isn't the point. The point is just to create, and create from deep down inside you. To be able to grab those emotions that you're feeling, and force them out onto the paper, onto the canvas, into the clay—into whatever media you choose. To me, when I think of art therapy, to me, that's what I think of. I don't know if that's technically the definition (clinically), but that's how I think of it.

Getting inspiration can be really hard. I know that I go through my dry spells, but some of the things are connecting with nature. Setting aside some time to meditate is important, because it quiets your mind. From failure comes success. You have to fail at something before you can succeed. And in order to create something, you have to destroy something. Those are kind of like the key things that I keep in the back of my mind when I'm in my workshop and I'm working.

I do deal with some semi precious metals and precious metals. So occasionally, you're under a little bit of pressure not to melt the gold or melt the silver while you're trying to solder it. So I have my scrap bags, and I just sort of let that go. Let that go, that that's my chosen medium, that it's kind of expensive, that I break gemstones setting them, you know, I crack stuff. I have killed tanzanite. I have killed rubies. It does come with its perils (my chosen medium that I work in), but it's just basically understanding that you are going to fail before you succeed and just accepting it.

Another thing is when you're focusing on whatever medium you're going to do, to just get up and walk away (if inspiration isn't coming to you). Get up, walk away, go outside, look at nature, look at what other artists are doing. So much of what I do, I get inspired by other artists. I get inspired by what they're doing. I get inspired by nature. I get inspired by my own emotions. So it's just finding something that will spur you on creatively, and just kind of grabbing onto that and using it.

Haley Radke: Those are all such amazing ideas. Thank you. And I love that thought of having a creative space that's just for sitting down and working on something, whatever it is, right? To have a space for it. That's a great idea. Thank you.

Tracy Aabey-Hammond: Yeah, you don't have to have… Like, you know, I have a pretty decently sized workshop/studio. And I have a lot of equipment, and really, you don't need anything that large. For the longest time, I just had kind of like a drafting table in the corner, where I could kind of draw.

Now, I really don't draw very well. I really don't paint that very well. I'm a pretty good photographer, and I do really well with ceramics and stuff. But you kind of have to map out what you're gonna do. I draw, but that's just for me as a map of what I'm gonna do.

But I don't really focus much on how well I'm able to draw, or sketch, or anything like that. One upside for me is I get to play with fire. So, I have a lot of, you know, I have a lot of hammers and stuff, and I have like a twenty-pound anvil. So, I really am able to just kind of beat the crap out of metal, and play with fire, and enjoy myself (especially if I'm frustrated).

Haley Radke: That sounds amazing. So, that's a good reason to get into metalsmith working— How do you say that, metalsmithing?

Tracy Aabey-Hammond: Metalsmithing. Yeah.

Haley Radke: Great reason. Fire and hammers.

Tracy Aabey-Hammond: Fire, hammers, you know, a boiling pot of acid. Gotta have a boiling pot of acid.

Haley Radke: Wow. It sounds like if I'm going to get into this, I'm going to have to wait until my kids are just a smidge older. They're very tiny at the moment. So…

Tracy Aabey-Hammond: Yeah. And you're gonna need to invest some money in some equipment, because unfortunately nothing comes cheaply. Some of the hammers I have, you know, they're like $80, $90 a pop (some texturing hammers). And those are the more inexpensive tools that I have.

The torch setup that I have was around like $400. I have a rolling mill. I got a bonus from work and I bought that. Rolling mills can be very, very pricey. So it's not for the faint of heart by any means.

Haley Radke; Okay. So maybe I will start with something a little less spendy for my first,

Tracy Aabey-Hammond: Yeah, go to Michael's when they've got a 50% off and just sort of delve into something a little bit on the easier side before you start, you know, making investment.

Haley Radke: That is good advice, too. Well, Tracy, thank you so much for your time. Is there anything else that you want to touch on with us before I let everyone know how to get in touch with you?

Tracy Aabey-Hammond: No, I think we've covered just about everything. And just to encourage everybody to go ahead and just create. Just to silence your inner critic. Just go ahead and be creative. It can be very healing.

I consider myself not to have come from the best situation, or have the best adoption story. I've managed to survive. I'm still here, still standing, still functioning. And some of it is genetics. My grandparents survived Dachau concentration camp, but the other part of it is how I deal with the emotions that I feel, the trauma that I've suffered, and how I express it and how I deal with it. And it's, you know, turning it into productive, creative, safe energies (rather than destructive).

Haley Radke: What a wonderful way to wrap up. Thank you.

Where can we connect with you online, Tracy? You have your Etsy shop?

Tracy Aabey-Hammond: Yes, I do. If you go to Etsy, you can just search Tracy'sGemShop as one word and it'll come up. My email address is Tracy@tracysgemshop.com. It's all one word and it's T-r-a-c-y. And, also on Facebook, there's a Tracy's Gem Shop Facebook page.

Haley Radke: Wonderful. I will link to all of those things in the show notes. So, you can go and buy an adoption loss pendant if there's one that you see that really speaks to you. Like I said, I just love mine and hearing you talk more about it, I'm like, Oh my goodness. I feel like I need more of them. Do you have anyone that has a collection ?

Tracy Aabey-Hammond: Recently… Well, I've had people who have bought like multiples and their first mothers who have lost multiple children to adoption, which is really sad.

And unfortunately I've had to— (through people asking, actually) I created, it's two hearts, soldered together. Two broken hearts, soldered together to represent two children, which is incredibly sad. In some cases, I've put, you know, multiple stones on the pendant. My own adoption loss pendant (it's a larger size one), and I have a ruby to represent me. I have a demantoid garnet to represent my father, and a diamond to represent my mother, on mine. So I have three stones on mine. But yeah, there are people who have purchased more than one.

Haley Radke: Well, thank you so much for sharing your story with us, for telling us about the pendant, and especially for all of those great ideas for how we can be creative and use that towards our healing.

Tracy Aabey-Hammond: Thank you for having me. I've really enjoyed speaking with you and I hope that this makes an impact on people.

Haley Radke: Okay. Didn't that make you want to go to the store? And buy an anvil and a torch? Like I was close. I was close to going and buying those things.

I learned so much from my conversation with Tracy and she even gave me some extra tips about how to keep jewelry clean with a very surprising household cleaner. So listen all the way past the outro music if you want to hear her advice for you on that. It's funny. It's really clever.

This show is brought to you by my Patreon partners. Patreon is a website that allows creators like me to raise monthly support to help me keep producing content for you like this podcast. As a special thank you for a monthly pledge, I have a secret Facebook group for adoptees only, where we support each other through search and reunion issues, and all sorts of adoption-related things.

We get really real and talk about things we're struggling with. And it is incredible. Incredible, some of the people that have joined and have become so very dear to me. So come and join us. It's adopteeson.com/partner, where you'll find all the details. Thank you guys so much. I couldn't do the show without you.

I love hearing your voices. It's one of my favorite things. Okay, let's listen to this clip:

Jennifer Dyan Ghoston: Hi, Haley. This is Jennifer Dyan Ghoston. My book is entitled The Truth, So Far… a detective's journey to reunite with her birth family. As a Chicago police officer for over 27 years, and a detective for over 16, I began to ask the question, “How do you use a document like the amended birth certificate given to an adoptee as a legal representation of the entire truth?”

So for a five-year period toward the end of my career, I started the path of more self-discovery in my identity as an adoptee. It was quite therapeutic and healing as I moved closer to my truth of being relinquished at birth. It's my belief that through the sharing of my story, the adoption community (and adoptees, in particular), will be empowered and encouraged as they trust their journey.

Thank you for this opportunity to share a few words as a published author. I love your podcast Adoptees On and enjoy hearing from everyone. Continued success, and I'll be listening. Take good care.

Haley Radke: Thanks, Jennifer. You can find her book on Amazon or her website, which is jenniferdyanghoston.com. And if you're an adoptee and you want to share your work on the show, just like Jennifer did, head over to adopteeson.com/connect and click on that little microphone and you can send me an audio message.

I wonder if I could ask just one last favor. Would you share the show with a friend? Maybe it's a fellow adoptee who's been holding off on searching. They just don't know when the right time would be to dive in. Maybe hearing Tracy's call to action would inspire them to search. When you meet them next for coffee, ask for their phone and show them how to download the podcast.

I will be back with a new episode for you in two weeks. Next Friday, I'm going to be at the Concerned United Birth Parents Conference in California. And I hope to bring you some live reports from those sessions on the Facebook page. And I'm also going to be bringing back some live interviews to share on the podcast with you soon. If you're going to be at CUB next week, please come and find me and introduce yourself. I am a huge hugger. I will give you a big hug and I would love to meet you in real life.

So, thank you for listening and we'll talk again in two weeks.

Tracy Aabey-Hammond: But my silver stays on all the time. I'll just pop it off and I'll use some light silver polish. It's a paste. You'll find it in the grocery store in the cleaning section and I'll just clean it. But I literally have jewelry that I've had on for decades, you know. The only time I'll take it off is to clean it.

Haley Radke: Well, there you go. What a great tip for me.

Tracy Aabey-Hammond: Yeah, just leave it on, but just every once in a while… And if you're going to clean gemstones, Mr. Clean, I don't know if you buy that to clean your floors with, but just plain old Mr. Clean, a couple of teaspoons or a tablespoon to a couple cups of water. Just let something soak in there and then just use a soft toothbrush (like a baby toothbrush) and just kind of give it a good scrub. And that will get all the gunk out from around the stone and then you can use the right silver polish on gold, too. I think my jewelry, probably… (it depends on if I'm putting on a lot of hand lotion or not), like once every six weeks or so.

Haley Radke: Yeah?

Tracy Aabey-Hammond: It doesn't look good for me to have gunky jewelry on if somebody's going to be asking me about my work.

Haley Radke: It's your business. Yeah,

Tracy Aabey-Hammond: Exactly. But no, it's meant to be worn, you should enjoy it.

Haley Radke: Well, I do. I put it on first thing and I take it off before bed, kind of thing. Like, that's really mostly what I do. It's a conversation starter now, right?

Tracy Aabey-Hammond: Yeah. The only thing that you have to be careful about peridot with is that it is a softer stone, so it can get scratched up more easily. But it's not like you're going to be filing with it on or anything like that.

Haley Radke: Right.

Tracy Aabey-Hammond: And pearls. Pearls do require special care. But, for the most part, you can clean just about any stone using those two methods I told you, except, like, pearls you have to be careful of. Anything that could be, like, porous… But I can't think of anything that, other than pearls, that you would not want to use Mr. Clean and the polishing paste on.

Pretty much, those are the standard things that I use after I get done polishing jewelry, that I use. It's very low tech. I do not have an ultrasonic cleaner, because this will have a tendency if the stone has a fracture in it, it can make it worse. So, it's kind of like old school.

Haley Radke: I feel like I'm getting insider knowledge. I love this.

Tracy Aabey-Hammond: Yeah. Yeah. Jewelers like Mr. Clean to clean jewelry. We don't buy anything expensive. It comes right off the rack.

Haley Radke: This is so funny. I can use this as an outtake and I'll put it at the very end of the show and it's like, “Stay tuned for Cleaning Tips with Tracy.”

Tracy Aabey-Hammond: Yeah!

Haley Radke: I'm just kidding. I won't do that, but that would be funny.

Tracy Aabey-Hammond: You actually can if you want to. I have a really good sense of humor. And I'll tell anybody who wants to listen, you know, how to take care of their jewelry. I'm a little bit of a geek about it, so…

Haley Radke: I can tell. [laughs]

41 Derek - Reunion Brings Ghosts to Life

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/41


You're listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. This is Season 3, episode two: Derek. I'm your host, Haley Radke. This is part two of my Season 3 premiere. Today, we meet Derek Frank. Derek shares about his reunion with his birth father, his siblings, and is also incredibly candid about why he has not yet reached out to his birth mother.

Later on, Ridghaus from last week's episode joins Derek, and the three of us have a conversation about their incredible Six Word Adoption Memoir Project, where Ridg and Derek ask, “If you had six words to tell your adoption story, what six words would you choose?”

We wrap up with some recommended resources, and links to all of the things we'll be talking about today are on the website, adopteeson.com.

Make sure you listen all the way to the end today, because I have some exciting news about a brand new podcast. Let's listen in.

I'm so pleased to welcome to Adoptees On, Derek Frank. Welcome, Derek.

Derek Frank: Thank you. Happy to be here.

Haley Radke: Well, I would love it if you would begin by sharing your story with us.

Derek Frank: So, I was adopted at birth from California, and my parents (my adoptive parents) were living in New York City at the time. So I was on a plane at four days old from California to New York City, and then I grew up in New York until I was eight. Moved to New Jersey with my adoptive folks. I knew I was adopted at birth, but that was sort of the end of the discussions we had in our house.

And it was a private adoption, so from when I turned 18, my parents actually gave me my original birth certificate. So I actually had my— Well, I don't know if it was the original one, but it was the one that had my birth father's name and my birth mother's name on it, so I had that information really early. And I think part of my journey in reunion has been to go back and think about what I did with that information. Because for a long time, I didn't do anything.

I just… I would think about my birth parents and I would sort of fantasize about the families that I was from, but I never reached out. So, it wasn't until I was 35 and my adoptive father died that I reached out to try to connect with my birth family.

So my adoptive father died, and after about a year. I went to go see the movie Philomena. (I don't know if you've seen that movie.) Judi Dench, Steve Coogan. She's a birth mother, searching for her son.

Haley Radke: I haven't seen it, because I often avoid films that make me— I'm worried that I'd be triggered. But I know what you're talking about, yes.

Derek Frank: Well, so, no, but that's really interesting. That's a level of self awareness you have that I didn't have at the time. I was one of those adoptees who was very much like, “Well, I'm adopted and so what?” That was sort of my attitude towards it, even as I was constantly, you know— I would fantasize about my birth parents all the time. I would walk through airports and scan everybody's face to see if I looked like anybody, but still sort of in denial as to how important and central that was to my life.

So I went to go see Philomena about a year-and-a-half after my birth father died, and cried almost through the whole thing and walked out of the theater and thought, Oh, well, I guess I got to do something now. Like that was the sort of inciting incident, I think, in my story in sort of getting me moving towards reunion.

And then the next day, actually, I went to Barnes and Noble (and this was one in New Jersey where my mom lives, because it was on a trip to visit my mom). And so I saw the movie and then the next day, I went to Barnes and Noble. And they actually had a small adoption section, you know, books for adoptive parents, but also some books that were sort of more from the adoptee perspective. So they had Betty Jean Lifton and they also had The Primal Wound. And that was the first book I picked up.

So I was standing in Barnes and Noble and I picked up The Primal Wound and read maybe four pages and started crying again. And so that was… Those two experiences back to back, (like, you know, nighttime and like an afternoon, back to back).... I came back to Boston (where I live), and a few days later I had signed up on a few registry sites (so sites that match birth parents and adopted people looking for each other?).

And even that's interesting, because I had the information, right? Like I could have reached out in some other way, but I apparently needed to do this really safe thing, because the registry site would sort of alert me if someone was looking for me.

Haley Radke: It's the mutual consent thing.

Derek Frank: Yeah, exactly. Like I needed to… Like, that was the first step I was going to take. You know, and it felt safe. And I think there's a lot to talk about in terms of what didn't feel safe, and what was going on for me.

But so it turned out in a great way that my birth father had signed up on one of these sites 15 years ago. Yeah. He had seen it on Oprah 15 years ago. So he had signed up.

Haley Radke: You would have been like 20 or something?

Derek Frank: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So I got an email two days after I signed up on this registry site, “Your birth father is looking for you.” And I just… I mean, you know, it's such a frightening, exciting, surreal moment. And I didn't expect it to happen so quickly.

I felt like I was dipping my toe into this sort of larger ocean. You know, it would take a long time to do this, and I would have time and it really… It was two days. And within two days after that first email from the person running the registry site, I got an email from my birth dad. And, whew! (I'm thinking about it now, because I was sitting in the same seat I was sitting in when I got that email and like sort of in the same room. So I think I'm experiencing it again.)

It was surreal and frightening. And I sort of turned to Jell-O. I couldn't breathe, like I was short of breath, you know. It's like, Oh my God, this is happening.

Haley Radke: You're just a couple days into even realizing that you might want to search.

Derek Frank: Right.

Haley Radke: You say you feel like Jell-O, and you're like… What are your next steps? Like were you paralyzed?

I would be just like, Oh my gosh. I don't know what to do next.

Derek Frank: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [laughs] So, I reached out to the registry site. So this person had sent me, (this woman in, I think, Louisiana had sent an email), saying, “Hey, we matched you. Your birth father's looking for you.”

And I sent an email to her that was like, “What do I do? What do we do?” Like, “How do these go? Do you have any like, I don't know, tips for me?” You know? “I've assumed you've matched many people before?” And literally, she had nothing to say. There was no help.

And I was like, Okay. I guess I'm just in this on my own and see it… And my birth dad emailed me two days later and it was... I guess I didn't really have time to catch up (in some ways). And in some ways, though, I feel like that's how it has to be. Because it could just sort of rip the Band-Aid off and you have to, you know, go with whatever resources you've got.

Haley Radke; Well, we've talked about this before on the show, about, “Well, how do you prepare for reunion?” And it's kind of like, “It's almost like there's nothing you can do except for, you know… (We'll talk about doing our own work and our own therapy and stuff like to heal up before, because it can be like a rollercoaster).”

But you don't know any of that. You're like, just a couple days in. You just got the book The Primal Wound, like… Oh my goodness.

Derek Frank: Right. Well, you know, right. But I guess to your point, I had been in therapy (not specifically talking about adoption issues), but I had been in therapy for… man, I don’t know, six years before that? And a year, (probably a year before, right around the time my dad died, like a little bit after that), I was leaving my therapist's office. And she said sort of offhandedly (but I think pointedly), “And you know, you're going to have to deal with that adoption stuff at some point.” And I remember thinking, What are you talking about? Like, What do you mean?

And I trusted her enough to sort of think about it and sort of, you know, let that sink in. (I'd been with her for five or six years at that point.) And I think that that was also sort of a little kickstart. It was like, Okay, I trust her. She's usually leading me in good directions. So I guess I should also start to think about that. But it still took about a year for me to get going.

But the thing that you said, I think I sort of immediately kicked into, Okay, I need to build some sort of support network. I found an adoption therapist sort of somewhat randomly, but when I made that connection, I immediately started going to see her. She connected me with a support group and then so pretty quickly, I was building a network of people to sort of support me in this. Because I knew (I think, through therapy) that I should not be going through it alone, and that it would be very emotionally challenging.

Haley Radke: Well, that's pretty amazing, because most of us didn't have any of that. That's really great that you had that in place. Awesome. Awesome.

Derek Frank: I mean, it's definitely helped in some ways. I mean, I see that point as well, like the first time— So I met my birth father, he emailed in January and I met him in April of the same year, in person. And the weekend that I met him was the same weekend that I was attending the American Adoption Congress in San Francisco. (So this was in 2014.)

And so the first time I was meeting my birth father, I was also surrounded by like 200 to 300 people who understood my story, you know, or understood what this was all about. And I think that was another bit of sort of serendipity, but also a way of trying to make sure that I was in sort of a supported place (as best I could).

Haley Radke: So tell us a little bit about that. The email from your birth father, and your meeting and… How did that go?

Derek Frank: First, so as a filmmaker, you know, I had always thought, I'll probably make a movie about this adoption thing. You know, that doesn't matter to me, but clearly it's so important that I'm gonna make a movie about it.

So I think I'd always been holding those two opposing thoughts, or you know, but… So the first time we met, I had somebody with me with a camera, so we did our first meeting on camera. So we walked into— I had a hotel room at the conference, and he walked in, and I was there with the camera guy, and we did our first, Oh my God, there's you. In person.

You know, the thing about the first email, the first phone call, the first meeting in person, all those firsts, it is our birth parents... For adoptees who are in closed adoptions, (you know, probably don't have a lot of information or have a little bit of information), our birth parents are—they're ghosts. They're these abstract placeholders. And bringing them into the world and making them concrete is frightening. It's literally like bringing a ghost to life. Like that's the process.

And so the first email was scary, and surreal, and took my breath away. It was short, and sweet, and there was clearly a compassionate person on the other end of it, but to actually be receiving an email from my birth father… The experience of having that person be made concrete is I think what supersedes everything else. I think that's the dominant experience and feeling of like, This shouldn't be happening. Or, This isn't what's supposed to happen, on some level, because these people were kept from us for some reason.

And unless it's explained to you as a child, Exactly why is it that I can't know these people? Why is it that I can't know my family? Why is it that I can't know my history? Like what's that really, really about? I don't think anybody can really work through that. So there's got to be some reason why, you know?

I also tell people that my experience with my birth father (and those first meetings, phone calls): it's the experience of taboo. It's like, now I have a firsthand experience of really understanding what taboo means and feels like, because knowing him was a taboo. And that was something that I internalized and kept in myself. And I was so afraid of breaking it, for reasons I can't even explain. For reasons I don't fully understand. And so I think all the fear, and the sort of the surreal out-of-body experience of it, comes from that sort of central sense of taboo.

Haley Radke: Well, that is so profound. I'm just kind of trying to soak that in. Having that extra layer of bringing a ghost to life, as you said. And experiencing it in that way… (as a taboo thing). Can you tell me what it's like for you when you watch back this video? Have you… Like, do you watch it back and love it?

Derek Frank: Oof… I don't watch it back a lot. I did watch it quite a bit, around…a bit after we shot it, because I was trying to edit it together, and get a sense of like, you know, the scene, and what kind of movie I want us trying to make (and all that stuff). But I don't know that I watched it back and experienced it emotionally.

It's a lot to catch up with. I mean, it's… I feel like only now, maybe, (What are we, three years in?)... I feel like now I'm starting to catch up and have some sort of perspective on it. But at the time… You know, he died in October 2015. So we had less than two years together. So…

Haley Radke: I’m sorry.

Derek Frank: Thank you.

But you know, that all happened so quickly that I was not (and I still think I'm catching up to a lot of it). And so it's hard to have a perspective on what that first meeting means, because it— I don't have a distance from it yet, that I need to make any real sense of it. I find it keeps changing, you know, the further I go along in my journey.

Haley Radke: Well, it sounds like you're able to see, like, these multiple layers of experience and feelings, and the impact it's had on you and it's such a huge thing. It is. It's a monumental moment and transition in your life, right? Because now you know him; he's real.

Derek Frank: Yep.

Haley Radke: And there's… It's a whole shift, like, There's another person in my life. And why was he gone?

Derek Frank: Yeah, it's… But you know, it's— (I was talking about this in group the other day). You know, the thing about reunion and bringing that ghost to life is like, regardless of what happens after that, they will never go back to being ghosts. They might ghost you, they might not be in your life, you know, but they're never going to be ghosts again.

And that shift is, I think, what's so monumental. And you know, I guess one of the things, one of the parts of that that always gets me is, I don't know why it had to be that way, you know? And this is— (certainly I beat myself up a little bit about why I didn't reach out sooner).

And, What was I doing? What was I thinking? And what was I afraid of? But you know, all that emotion, he's my birth father. He wasn't a supernatural being. You know what I mean? Like he's not a— He isn't… He's not a ghost. He's just a guy. He's just a guy that I wasn't allowed to know, for reasons that were beyond me.

But that's what I reflect on a lot, or that's what I find coming up for me a lot. It's like, What?? Can I curse on this?

Haley Radke: Sure.

Derek Frank: Yeah. Why was this such a big [censored] thing?

That makes me angry? You know, like I should have known this person. And it shouldn't have had to do all this work emotionally to get ready for that. And that's what comes up for me a lot.

Haley Radke: And you had less than two years with him, you said?

Derek Frank: Yeah. Yeah.

Haley Radke: And what was your reunion? Like, did you get to spend time with him? He lived far away from you. What was your relationship like?

Derek Frank: It was good. I mean, he was… So the thing that I found out when I went into reunion with my birth family— (so that would be my birth father, my half-siblings [brother and sister], my birth father's ex-wife [who he was still close with, she reached out to me as well], and my birth aunt as well), is that I had never been a secret in that family. Like, they had kept me alive. They had talked about me; I was a known quantity to them.

The only people who didn't know about me were my siblings. And that was the— My birth father and his wife had decided to not tell them, because they felt like it should be my choice to go find them (which I appreciated, like as a show of respect). But at the same time, I think is: a) messed up, and b) as a product of the circumstance. You know?

But why should it be on me to go [censored] figure myself out and go find them? You know what I mean? Like, that's expecting a lot of me. But I understand where they were coming from on that, like I'm not angry with them, just the circumstance. So I walked into a situation in which people had been talking about me, and in which I was fully accepted. I know people were happy to see me. It was almost like there was still a place at the table for me that they had kept open.

My birth dad— I'll call him Mike, so I don't have to keep saying birth dad. Mike had told his wife on their second date about me, you know? So she had known me forever. And so when I finally found them and reached out, she said to me, she was like, “Well, I feel like I've known about you from the start, so….”

And she was beautiful. I mean, she said that she considered me a sibling to her children. And that, you know, her door was always open to me. And when I go and visit now, I stay with her. You know? So everyone there was ready for me and everyone had open arms.

Haley Radke: That's so unusual and amazing.

Derek Frank: I know.

Haley Radke: Like in my situation, my bio dad's wife also knew about me from the start, and so I think that made a big difference as well.

Derek Frank: I think often one of the by-products of adoption (and particularly closed adoption) is just the level of secrecy involved. It's just all over the place and secrets aren't conducive to strong, healthy relationships.

So, you know, as adoptees we're always (I feel like, you know) walking into places where we wonder, Are we secrets? And then oftentimes, we were a secret, or there are people hiding secrets from each other. And, you know, that's never a good situation to walk into. And I was really lucky to find that that hadn't been the case.

And in some ways, I think the fact that I realized everybody knew about me, and had talked about me, and that my grandparents had talked about me… You know, I cried when I found out my grandma had occasionally asked about me. Just like, “I wonder what happened to that baby?” Or, “I hope he's okay.” I think she called me “the little guy.” “I hope the little guy's okay.”

I just never expected to be alive to them. I just assumed they forgot about me, or maybe I was a burden, or like a shameful thing in their family history. But I wasn't. And that was really— That was a gift they gave me. And it's really healing in some ways. I didn't even realize I was wounded about it until they told me that. And I felt sort of healed.

Haley Radke: Yeah, that totally makes sense. Yeah.

So do you have a relationship with your brother and sister, then?

Derek Frank: I do. Yeah. So I should say, so my relationship with my birth father, it was… Well, there's a couple of layers here. So I think reunion isn't just about the relationship (at least not for me). I'm happy to have a relationship, and continue to build those. I think there's hard work involved there. So it's not just always like, “Hey, this is really fun.” I mean, it's— There's anxiety for me.

There's always anxiety. Like I always feel like rejection’s right around the corner, even— I mean, it's not at all from them. I know I've said it, but like… And if you saw them interact with me, or just as people, you'd be like, “No. No, that's never going to happen. They're not going to tell you to leave.” But I carry that with me into my relationships with them.

Haley Radke: Oh, yes. I know that feeling well. Every time I say goodbye to my family, I think, Is this the last time I'm going to see them? Like, Did I do something and this is it? Every time, no matter how positive it was.

Derek Frank: Yeah. Every text that doesn't get answered quickly. You know? And I guess I should say though, that there's so much that reunion’s taught me about who I am in such a myriad number of ways. But one of them was, I didn't realize what I carried with me because of adoption.

So I didn't realize that sense of rejection (and how powerful it was for me) until I was in reunion. So, until I had met my birth father (until I met Mike) and he was calling me “Son" within the first 45 minutes, you know? Like, just completely bear hugged me (and he's a huge guy). So both literally and figuratively, sort of just bear hugging me. Until I had that experience and realized that I still was afraid of rejection, that I still was afraid that he was going to decide he didn't want to talk to me, or that I was going to say something stupid, or make a joke that he didn't like or something—then I was going to be kicked out.

And I had to grapple with the fact that that was just my feelings. That was in me. It had nothing to do with anybody else. It certainly didn't have anything to do with Mike, or his family, or my siblings, or anybody. That was just my [censored] that I had to deal with. And then realizing I carried that into all my relationships. You know, like at work, at school, romantic relationships, like that feeling of, I'm about to be kicked out of the club had permeated my whole life.

But reunion was like drinking from the fire hose of that feeling, you know? Like that's the full, pure experience of it. And that was instructive for me.

Haley Radke: So you were saying about your relationship with Mike…?

Derek Frank: It was complicated. I mean, he was nothing but openhearted to me, but I, you know, there was a lot. There was—I always had anxiety around our interactions that I couldn't shake. And I think I had hoped that had we had more time, that I would have relaxed into it a bit more. And that I could have felt more comfortable in the solidness of the relationship.

I think, on the positive side of it, it was great to receive his sort of unconditional acceptance: that he wanted me there, that he wanted to know me, that he wanted me in his life. That he called me “Son,” which was confusing emotionally at times, but I understood where he was coming from on it. And it felt good to be claimed by him.

In a lot of ways, I think that the best parts about it were the acceptance, and the genetic mirroring I didn't expect to receive (and I received an abundance). I'm a very similar character to my dad, and to my brother. And getting that kind of mirroring was, I mean, life-changing. It's life-altering. And, you know, there's no way to know what you're missing until you have it. And then you get it, and all of a sudden, you're face-to-face with people who are so much like you, and look like you. It changes so much, that it's hard to really quantify.That's what I can reflect on now, in my relationship with Mike. I think as time goes on, I might get further with that.

But now I have a relationship with my siblings, and you know, I continue to visit them and continue to build those relationships. I still have some rejection stuff going on with that, that I try my best to manage. But I love having them, and I— I grew up an only child, so I didn't have siblings. And it's really interesting to come into adult sibling relationships.

Because I'm not really (because I didn't grow up with them), so I’m weirdly sort of like genetically a sibling, but culturally (or you know), kind of like a cousin, I guess of some sort. You know? It feels like I sort of both belong and don't. I mean, which is the adoptive thing, right?

Haley Radke: So I grew up an only child and I have three younger half-siblings.
So I am… I’m with you there.

Derek Frank: Right! It's—I mean, it's I don't know... Do you guys have a relationship? Do you guys…?

Haley Radke: Yeah, we are in relationship. Right now, they are between the ages of 16 and just about 21.

Derek Frank: Oh, wow. They're still like growing up.

Haley Radke: So the youngest was nine when I first met them. So they were still kiddos. So it’s different. it's a different situation than meeting them as adults, but still definitely like—

I love what you said about, like, culturally cousins. No, like genuinely that I'm like, Whoa, That kind of fits! Because you don't have a shared history of growing up in the same house. And yet your genetics are linked. And I do share a lot of similar personality traits, and sense of humor, and looks, and like those kinds of things.

So I feel that those things fit, but the missing out on the shared history. It's a big divide.

Derek Frank: Yeah, I find that. I mean, so my dad was a winemaker, so my siblings grew up in wine country in Northern California. And you know, they grew up with my dad, who was kind of an outsized character. And their mom, who was very different than my family.

And yeah, there's definitely a sense of as much as I want to feel connected, I sometimes feel like my siblings are like a team of two, you know? When I see them together sometimes, and they have their conversations, and their sidebars, and their little whispers, and their… (you know, just the way siblings do). And I realize that they're a team of two and I'm like…

We had this moment like a year ago. It was the first moment. I was like, Oh man, maybe we could be— We'll have our team, too. It'll be like, we'll be a team of three (and that'll be us). And then they'll also have their team of two, and that'll be their thing. Right? So like, But we can…

I'm never gonna be in their thing. I'm never gonna be in their team of two. Like that's theirs. Because they grew up together, they had the same experiences, they had the same parents. But we might be able to be our own team of three, you know? That's how I kind of think about it.

Like we've talked about having “Sibling Weekend.” You know, going away a little bit and just kind of hanging out together. And I feel like— I like them both, and we seem to get along. And maybe we'll have a dynamic of our own, you know, or a relationship, that's the three of us. But it's hard, because you know, you're never going to—(nor do I even want or think it's possible, or necessarily want it). But like they have their thing, you know, so I'm never going to be in that, which is fine. I mean, that's how it is.

Haley Radke: But we can still want it.

Derek Frank: Yes. Yes.Haley. I know.

Haley Radke: Well, I mean, for me, I mean, that's what's true for me. Like I still want it and it's very hard to know I'm not going to be on that team.

Like you said, like the team of two. So, yeah.

Derek Frank: No, I know. I know. I feel like that's always the struggle or the thing we were always grappling with. It's like, we can't go back and relive our lives. Like, right? I can't go back and be raised by my birth parents.

My brother has a great way of putting things. And so he was— We were talking about it, just the different experiences that we had. And he was talking about growing up with his dad. So Mike was a winemaker, but he was also a painter, and he was just sort of like a big creative dude. And when he died, we found this poetry on his computer that was like— (It was so funny, because it reminded me of poetry I wrote when I was like 17). It was very sort of sweet, and sort of adolescent in that way, but also sort of like— There was a depth of feeling to it, you know, that I recognized.

And my brother is a filmmaker, which is one of those crazy things. When we first met, it was like, Whoa. There's nature winning over nurture. But he said, “You know, it's just good to see the guy, the person in line in front of you.” And by that, he meant he got to see his dad, and he got to see what that kind of guy looks like (and the mistakes they make, and the things they do right, and sort of their strengths and their weaknesses, and how they sort of deal with those things).

And I wish I had that, because I grew up in a family where I didn't see any of that. I had no idea what I was dealing with. You know? I had no idea how to be me. If that sounds— I feel like adoptees always end up saying something like that, but that's what it feels like. It's like, I didn't see myself reflected. I had no idea what to do with myself.

Like, you know, I had these skills, and strengths, but also weaknesses. And, man, my parents had no idea what to do with that. You know? I was in a family that was not attuned to me. And so meeting my birth dad and my siblings was like, Oh, I'm not weird. I was just in the wrong place. I'm not— That wasn't my tribe. You know?

My birth family is an extroverted sort of group. They're generally sort of creative. And my adoptive family was much more dour, (sort of more engineer-y, I guess). And I just always felt… And you know, I think there's some sort of spectrum stuff going on in my adoptive family on my mom's side. I think my mom was Asperger's. I think her brother's Asperger's. And I was so not attuned to what was— So it just all felt… I felt like an alien all the time.

Family gatherings felt weird. I watch a video now of my birth family’s Christmases (and not to sort of project onto them), but like just looking at the people and how they present themselves, like my grandparents, my aunt, my dad, some cousins, it's like, Oh, yeah. I recognize those people. I get that. That feels normal to me in a way that my adoptive family never felt normal.

And you know, I even visited my sister. She's got three little boys. So she's got a four-month-old, a two-year-old, and a four-year-old. And when I stayed there, you know, that I feel a connection to those little boys, that is really interesting for me to experience, because I don't think I've ever felt something like that before. Like they're not my kids, but I feel super connected to them. Yeah, that's a long— So one of our strengths and weaknesses is ADD, which means I get to just sort of ramble and think laterally a lot.

Haley Radke: No, it's beautiful. You're talking about these things and what it's coming up for me is— My adoptive parents were both elementary school teachers and in a very small rural community (which was culturally and religiously Mennonite, and they were not). So all the school teachers were all friends, because they were not Mennonite.

Anyway, all that to say, if all their friends would always be like, “Oh, so you're going to be a teacher when you grow up.” You know, like it was very much— And I was like, “Never, never, no.” And It, you know, it's funny because I don't know that I wouldn't have been suited to that career, but I— There was something inside me that was like, No, that's not me. That's not where I fit.

So when you were just explaining that, about the similarities with your bio family and, you know, dissimilarities with your adoptive family, I was like, that was coming up for me. I'm like, Ugh, no. I'm not going to be a teacher.

Derek Frank: Yeah, I feel like that's a— Do you know, do you think you were doing that because of how you…was that sort of like you pushing back a little bit and trying to claim something for yourself? Or was that like a legitimate, or like a deep sense of like, That just doesn't feel right?

Haley Radke: No, it was the first. It was more that I'm like, No. These are not my people. This is not who I'm meant to be. (Not that I knew, either).

Derek Frank: Right, right. Was this conscious do you mean? Or do you think it was more of at a gut level?

Haley Radke: Uh-uh. Gut level. Yeah.

Derek Frank: Right, right.

Haley Radke: Yeah. Anyway, it's so funny. Not that there's anything wrong with being a teacher. I have lots of friends that are teachers.

Derek Frank: Oh, no, I'm a teacher. I didn't take that in any way. A lot of people don't want to be teachers. My wife doesn't want to be a teacher. She's like, “I don't know how you do what you do, because I could never do that!”

Haley Radke: Well, it's funny now, because, I don't really like kids all that much. And now that I'm a parent, I like my own kids. I like my friends' kids. I still…yeah. Teaching’s not for me.

Okay, now that your dad has passed away, has that changed your relationship at all with your siblings? Has that brought up other things for you?

Derek Frank: Well, it's a hard question to answer, because it all happened so quickly. I think our relationships all would have changed anyway, because I felt like this last visit I took… (So we've been— Now it's 2017, so three years, I guess).

So we've been in reunion three years, and I felt like in this last visit (a few months ago), I finally was getting really into the relationship, like really, really. Like, seeing the fault lines in the family, and seeing the places where there was real tension, and people were talking to me about issues that they had. And I was getting a sense of what a real family is, (which is not just sort of like, “Oh, we all love each other and this is all great. And, you know, we're so happy to see you.”) It's also, “And these are the hard parts.” And I think that we would have gotten there anyway. And I don't know how Mike not being around has altered that. I don't really have a sense of that, because I think that was going to come, hopefully.

I mean, and you hope for that, right? Like, on the one hand, it's a little harder, but on the other hand, there's a truth in that. And I was feeling some of these tensions anyway, and to have them finally unearthed and addressed was like, Thank God. Like I was feeling this weird thing and I didn't know what it was, and now I get it. Like I get where people are coming from, in a more real way.

And I bring that up, I suppose, because I asked on this last trip (individually) to my siblings and Mike's ex-wife, just kind of like…, (because we haven't talked about Mike's death). And I just wanted to know, “Is this a family where people talk about that stuff? Or is this the kind of thing where we're not going to sit around and talk about it?” I just kind of wanted to know what the family culture was, I guess.

Only recently, really, did the grief hit me hard enough that I could, well, cry and then try to start processing some of it (like, it took a long time). It took almost a full year for me to get to that place, where I could feel the pain enough to start, you know, being able to process it. I wasn't numb anymore. And I would have liked to talk to my siblings about it, but I don't know that they were in a place to do that, or that that's how they process it.

I was being—I was sort of like dancing around it. Not dancing. I was just like, “Do we talk about this or not?” And I got the sense that we don't. So. Which is not a— That's fine. I mean, that's how everyone's got to do what they do. I mean, it's… My dad died already. I had, you know, I've been through it once. Like the dad I grew up with, he died, and I went through that grief. So I know it's hard, and I know… Anyway, that's—I'd say where those relationships stand right now.

Haley Radke: Thank you for sharing that. Thanks.

Derek Frank: Sure.

Haley Radke: Okay. So we have spent a lot of time talking about your dad, and finding your siblings, and all of these things. Did you search for your birth mother?

Derek Frank: I…. Well, again, I didn't need to search really because I had her name, and I believe I know where she is. And I haven't reached out. What can I say about that?

Well, I'm [censored] scared as hell, and I'm only barely in touch with how frightened I am. I've been putting it off. I'm really upset that Mike died before I could find her or meet her. I think I had a dream of having them together in the same room. And I don't know how realistic that was or anything, but I definitely had that fantasy.

You know (I don't know, maybe you can ask me a question about this), but I found my adoption thing has been very opposite to most people. Like I didn't fantasize about a birth mother much. I fantasized about a birth father. And that was always in my head. And then, my reunion has been backwards, you know?

I found my birth father's family first, my birth father (that was the big relationship), and my birth mother has been sort of like to the side of that, or in the background. And I've come to realize in, you know, adoptee circles, like, that's not normal. That's not how most fantasies go, and most reunions go.

Haley Radke: Yeah, that is very interesting. I guess when I was interviewing Liz Latty, we talked about our fathers, because we both are in reunion with our fathers. And my first mother has rejected me. So I had a brief reunion with her (four months), and then she ghosted me. So...

Derek Frank: I'm sorry.

Haley Radke: Thank you. So that's been over 10 years and— But anyway, what Liz and I were talking about was how we picture our mothers, because we're like in their womb, and we're like walking around with them for nine months. And so often, the fathers are like just this secondary thought, like one moment in time, you know?

So that's so interesting. Can you say more about that? So when you were younger, you were picturing him, not—(or, I mean, not him)...?

Derek Frank: Yeah, no, I know. I thought about him a lot more like rock stars, and like famous athletes… You know what I mean? Like you…whatever. Silly. Like at some point, I think, you know, there was like Sting. There was like, you know, any blonde-haired, blue-eyed guy who was on TV, it was like, Maybe, yeah, that could be it. Yeah. But that was where my thoughts usually went.

Haley Radke: And so now, what is it? You're frightened… What are you frightened of? That she's going to reject you right off the bat? Or…

Derek Frank: [laughs] I don't know that I can pinpoint it. It's, you know… There's a deep fear that doesn't come up in, like… There's no words attached to it. You know what I mean? Like, that's how far down it is.

You know, adoptee issues sort of mingle with all your other stuff, right? So whatever you were born with, and whatever other experiences you had (sort of adoption issues), just kind of commingle with those things. I mean, they push them in different directions, or they can turbo-boost certain things. Like, if you're an anxious person, or you were naturally going to be sort of afraid of change, or relationships are going to be hard, or whatever— Adoption issues can really push that stuff into overdrive. So I think for me…

Do you know much about Asperger's or have you heard much about that?

Haley Radke: Not really. No.

Derek Frank: So my understanding of it is, you know, it's a spectrum disorder. And one of the main struggles that Asperger's folks have is reading the emotions of other people. So they have trouble with social cues, they have trouble with facial expressions, they have trouble with sarcasm (for instance).

Anything where they, you know, you're sort of reading between the lines, or you're reading context and social cues, Asperger's folks will often struggle with that. So you have to imagine what it would be like to grow up with a mother who didn't read social cues, who didn't understand emotional cues, who couldn't look at you and have any sense of what you were thinking or feeling.

I think over the years, I've sort of recognized that as a profound rejection and that I felt it as rejection. And I think the tragedy of it is, I don't think it was intended. I don't— My mom isn't a malicious person, but I find it so painful to be in relationship with her, and so difficult.

And I've worked really hard to just be able to sort of maintain a very distanced relationship that I can manage, because her deficiencies felt like personal rejection. And I know now that they weren't, but that doesn't change how it feels at a gut level. And so I feel like my adoptee issues commingle with the son of a spectrum disorder person, and I think whatever fears I had of rejection from a mother have been multiplied exponentially.

That's how I think about it. I think that's what I— It's like an intellectual guess. That's what I think is what's going on. I would not say that I feel it with such clarity. It just feels scary.

Haley Radke: Well, thank you for sharing that. That it makes so much sense. I have so much empathy and I just… Ugh, I cry every episode. Okay.

I have so much empathy for adoptees and all of the things and burdens that we've carried and, you know, we work so hard on healing different areas of our life. And yet, it feels like, you know, full healing is just always out of reach. And there's always just one more big thing that we have to work on before X, Y, Z happens, or whatever.

So anyway, I hope that you are able to work through that in some way, that you can come to a joyful decision about that, whatever way it goes.

Derek Frank: Thank you.

Haley Radke: Okay. So, let's shift and talk about some healing and creativity. When I asked you a few of these other questions about your grief and things, and you say that these feelings don't have words, you know, they're so deep down kind of a thing. And a lot of adoptees, you know, we would say that we have preverbal trauma from being relinquished at birth (if that was our experience).

And so, from talking to some, you know, art therapists and et cetera, (and just from my own observations), I really feel like when we do different creative things (whatever that is. For me, it is actually making the podcast. For others, it's painting, or other visual art)--- Those allow us to release some of those feelings and put them out in art, instead of finding words for them.

Have you had any of that kind of experience, I guess?

Derek Frank: Grief is such a big part of this experience. And the more I go through it, the more I sort of recognize it in myself and other people. And the pain that we have that we didn't even know was pain, or the grief that we had that we didn't know was grief, that's something that I feel a lot, both in the creative work we do and other people's creative work (and just in general, talking to adoptees).

I do have an interesting sort of, (two interesting things, I guess). I think the first is that I made my first film in grad school. And so my thesis film was a 15 minute short story, short narrative film. But the premise of it was that this woman wakes up one day and she tells her fiancé that her name really isn't Sarah, and that her name's really Julie. And that's it. And but they have this sort of, you know, intellectual debate about it/breakup.

And revisiting that 15 years later, being in reunion and having really started to delve into the adoptee stuff, I look back at that and I'm like, I was [censored] dealing with it then. I didn't know I was dealing with it. But I was interested in identity, and they spend a lot of the time arguing about identity, and what names mean, and how that affects who you are. And the title of the film is actually By Any Other, like, “a rose by any other name would smell as sweet.”

And I'm like, I look back at it now and I'm like, I'm obviously, obviously dealing with adoptee identity stuff. There's no question in my mind that that's what I'm working through. But even at the time, I didn't really know what I was doing, you know? I didn't know that that's what I was working through.

And we had this saying in film school, because we all— I went to film school and we all got to know each other really well. And we knew each other's families, and we knew each other's sort of backgrounds (to some extent). And we used to look at each other's work and be like, “Can't hide from your art. It's going to be in there.”

And what we meant was, “If you have daddy issues, that's in your art.” “If you have issues with self esteem, that's in your art.” You're never going to be able to hide from your art. If you're doing it right, it's going to show up: who you are, what you're experiencing emotionally. Like how you emotionally walk in the world, that's going to be in there.

And so I fundamentally believe that art is a way that we access parts of ourselves that we can't consciously get to, or that we can't get to in any other way. Because we're not doing it intellectually, we're doing it emotionally. I'll tell students now (because I made this mistake a lot), “You're making a movie. It's not, you're not writing a paper. Like if you're giving me a page about why you're making this movie and it sounds like a thesis, don't make that movie. Because you're not approaching it emotionally.”

That's where art comes from, right? Like we're trying to express feelings. We're trying to express these things that don't rationally or logically necessarily work together or make sense. We're trying to get out these other things.

So that's definitely something that I try to follow as a filmmaker, and that when I'm teaching other filmmakers (young filmmakers), I try to impart that as well. Like, “You're not writing a paper. So get out of your head and get into your body.” You know, “Get into how you feel.” So that's one thing I'd say.

And then, I had a friend who runs a program for high school filmmakers from— Generally speaking, the kids who come to the program are from difficult backgrounds. And so art therapy is a big component of what they do there. And the films that I've seen these kids make… Because they go through a curriculum that has a good deal of art therapy involved in it, and there's art therapists in the premises there. And that school does painting and they do other things as well, not just film. But the films I've seen them make often have much more depth emotionally than stuff I see my college students make.

So there's 15-year-olds there who are working through (who are being helped to work through) their own emotional stuff, and it's showing up in their art. And they're making this really resonant kind of art that my college students struggle with, because they're not emotionally able to do it yet. Or they're not emotionally able to go to a place where they're being honest, you know, about what they feel.

So I saw that stuff, I saw my friend do that work, probably 12 years ago. And that stuck with me as well, you know? And if I was going to do another career, I think art therapy might be a part of it. Like, I think there's a lot of important stuff there, you know, that art therapists do, and expressive, creative expressive therapists.

Haley Radke: Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. There's so many— It's the depths that we have to plumb for them to get those things out, right?

Derek Frank: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And I mean, it's just like, you know, there's, I was holding so many emotions at arm's length and it was only sort of like…

And I was struggling with that a lot, and only I found actually going through reunion has opened those things up for me, so that I'm making art that's more emotionally resonant. But it was because I had locked up so many feelings that I couldn't make art that I could express enough. Because I couldn't, I wouldn't allow myself to touch any of it, you know?

So I've actually found that I feel better as a filmmaker having started reunion and opened up a lot of that emotional space that I just had locked away for so long.

Haley Radke: Oh, so good. So many good things. So where can people connect with you online?

Derek Frank: Facebook is probably the best place.

Haley Radke: Okay. So you can find your page. It's Six Word Adoption Memoir Project on Facebook.

Derek Frank: There we go.

Haley Radke: Wonderful. Thank you so much for your time. I've so enjoyed hearing your story. Thank you for sharing it with us.

Derek Frank: Well, thanks for talking with me.

Haley Radke: Absolutely.

What a great conversation. Oh my goodness. So, so good.

Okay. Now let's move into the conversation with Derek and Ridg together.

And so I have Ridg and Derek here with me, and we are going to dig in to talking about the Six Word Adoption Memoir Project.

Welcome back, you guys.

Derek Frank: Thanks for having us again.

Ridghaus: Thanks, Haley.

Haley Radke: Yes. So, I need to know, where did you come up with the idea for this?

Ridghaus: It was all Derek. We were talking. We'd gone to Jean Strauss's workshop at a conference in San Francisco and both of us had kind of asked questions that alerted one another to the fact that we were filmmakers.

And so Derek and I spent the next year kind of talking about one of Jean's missives, which was that she wanted to make more films of shorter length. And so with that kind of directive, we thought, Okay, we've got some skills here. So we talked about other ways to do that.

Derek Frank: And I think just for me, when Andrew and I met, that was my first adoptee conference. And so I was also hearing all these different people tell their stories and I was always thinking like, These are all amazing.

And as a storyteller and a filmmaker, you know, my ears were— My sort of radar was picking things up from that. And so then when I met Andrew, it was like, Oh man, we got to do something. We're in a room with like 200 people and everyone's got something amazing to say.

Haley Radke: Oh my goodness. Okay. So what year was that?

Derek Frank: 2014.

Haley Radke: Okay. So it took you about a year to figure out what you were going to do in it.

Derek Frank: Yeah.

Haley Radke: And what were your next steps?

Ridghaus: Well, I don't think we really figured out what we were going to do. I had mentioned a visual aspect. I mean, aside from having someone sit, you know, and talk about their story, I wanted something visually to represent that story.

And of course, I came up with these hugely long, you know… We'd have to follow people for weeks afterwards to get the right kind of B-roll. And Derek had just gone through the Six-Word Novel/Memoir exercise with his support group. And so he said, “Hey, what about this?”

So, that just kind of morphed into having people write down their six words and we can film that, you know, to function in kind of a B-roll, and kind of a revelatory capacity. But it also gave them something to concentrate on, so they weren't worried about a mic and a camera. But even then, I don't think we knew what we quite had.

Derek Frank: No. Well, also, so let me shout out to Katie G. Katie is the support group leader who came up with the—or who brought the Six-Word to us. I mean, the Six-Word Memoir has been around for a long time, but she brought the Six-Word into group and that was really what sort of— That's what I brought to Ridghaus.

So Katie was really the one who sort of started it. I like to tease Katie, or apologize for not giving her credit.

Haley Radke: You know, she doesn't have a producer credit at the back?

Derek Frank: She's not in the credits, although I think she should be. In the next one we make, she should be in there.

Ridghaus: It's cool. We can do that.

Derek Frank: Yeah. Yeah. You know, it’s not like I came up with it. You know, the other thing I remember we were going back and forth with was, again, in the sense of like, “What are you supposed to look at?” Because film is visual, and just sitting and just watching people sit there and talk is not necessarily all that interesting.

Ridghaus: Compelling.

Derek Frank: Compelling, yeah.

We did have a lot of discussion about, “Well, what the heck can we shoot?” Like, “What can we film that will be interesting to look at?” (And Andrew/Ridghaus, maybe you remember this), but there was like a… I feel like it was a video of maybe homeless people? It was like a project about homelessness…?

Ridghaus: Yeah. So we had done… Well, other people have done this too, but I'd been involved in a project where we did cardboard stories, you know? People kind of held up their story and then they'd flip the cardboard over and it would kind of be the reveal. So that was something that we had mentioned, and I think that's how we kind of got to the place of, “Let's have them write their words down.”

Derek Frank: That's right.

Ridghaus: So there was a lot of— I mean one of the truly magical things (and you know I make no secret of you know, how fond I am for Derek and the work we've done), but Derek's an exceptional interviewer. And he really (between the two of us), we create a really safe space for people to talk.

And, you know, we cry with them. But, Derek asks the right questions that help pull the story out. And then it makes it far easier to kind of put back together in post.

Derek Frank: Aw, well, that's… I always think— (it's nice of you to say), but I always feel like the fact that we have them, we have like their thesis statement (the six words). And so everything in post, like when we edit it, can all go back to that. So it gives us an anchor, rather than me asking any good questions.

And people really— You know, they want to tell their story. And they've come into the room and they're really open with us, which is a continual gift, you know, that we can sit there and people will just tell us about their lives.

Haley Radke: It is such a gift to hear stories. I interview adoptees about some very deep and private feelings that they have about adoption. And so do you. And are you— I have been stunned by some of the things people have revealed. And I think I might have been the first person they've ever told this to.

Have you had moments like that?

Ridghaus: Yeah, actually, I mean, there are probably three or four stories that I can think of where we got to the end of it, and it was almost like they were surprised that they talked about that. Like, they had put something together that maybe had lived outside of that synthesis, and it was finally like, “Oh, okay. All right.”

And there were a couple of people who reached out as we were finishing post and they were like, “Hey, listen, I know you're about to show these. Did you happen to include, you know, the part where I talked about, you know, this or that?” And I'm like, “No, of course not. It's… We want you to have total freedom when you're talking, but not worry about, you know, we're gonna spin off some sordid tale that you just happened to tangentially relate to your Six Words.” So…

Derek Frank: And well, we both did the Six Words in Denver. We both sat in front of the camera and did that. And I felt like because you don't get to talk about it that much, when you get to sit down and actually just talk about it, things start to come out. Or you start to put two and two together in a way that maybe you hadn't before?

Ridghaus: Yeah.

Derek Frank: So, just the opportunity to speak out loud about it is, I found, actually kind of liberating.

Haley Radke: I did speak to someone who you interviewed and, you know, she told me that you did indeed tear up when she did. It made her feel so safe with you both.

Ridghaus: Well, Derek's got this great big ol’ heart. He just kind of fills the room.

Derek Frank: Oh, God...

Ridghaus: No, it's awesome. I mean, I remember one time, we were cutting on Six Word Adoption Memoirs 1. This interview lasted about 40 minutes. And, you know, we're trying to get these stories down under two (and really when I'm being tyrannical, you know, I want them under a minute-and-a-half). Just because there's such emotion in them, that letting it kind of spill out into two, three minutes long… It's a lot.

We interviewed her for so long, we ran out of tape. So we had to switch cards and then continue the interview. And somewhere in there, one of us had handed her Kleenex. So, as we're hearing her story and trying to recreate it chronologically (because, you know, it came at different points in the interview). We had continuity errors, because one time she's holding a tissue, and the other time she's not, and then she's holding tissue again. And I'm like, you know, so I'm in post and I'm like, Do I roto this out? Like, Do I roto the tissue out?

So, I mean, it was a struggle, but I know that I feel the sacredness of their story. And it's moving. It's just beautiful stuff.

Derek Frank: Yeah, I mean, I definitely remember... I feel like I remember crying with birth mothers a lot, and I think that that has as much to do with… I mean, getting to interview people about something that's really meaningful to you, and that you're still exploring for yourself, is like its own kind of therapy. Listening to their stories, and sort of connecting with them, and feeling them is kind of a way of feeling it for yourself, but with a slightly safe distance, you know?

It's not– I don't have to experience all the pain of it. I can experience the sort of…whatever, you know... A safe fraction of that, that I can still connect to. So I do, yeah. I do cry sometimes with the birth mothers, for sure. And probably with some other people.

Haley Radke: Well, the person I spoke to was an adoptee, and she had nothing but very kind things to say about you both.

Derek Frank: Aw, that’s sweet.

Haley Radke: You know, you were mentioning recording in Denver. Do you want to give us a peek behind the scenes? I think you have been recording at conferences. Is that right?

Ridghaus & Derek Frank: Yeah.

Ridghaus: So we started in Boston in 2015 (the year after we met at San Francisco). And we shot as many interviews as we could, in kind of two half-day segments. Maybe it was really like one-quarter of a day and then, you know, half or three-quarters.

We felt like we got incredible stories. We weren't sure what to do. And then once we premiered that version next year in Denver, we shot almost three times as much. And so we were just exhausted at the end of a long shoot day. And then last year, we went to Tampa and shot three birth mothers. We'll be coming to Austin and shooting some interviews there (with the AKA conference), the first weekend of November.

Derek Frank: Yeah, but if it's behind the scenes you want, we're in a hotel room and we've pushed the bed up against a wall somehow, or pushed a mattress up against a wall. And in Denver, we were sitting on the slats of the bed.

Ridghaus: So I answered the wrong question. That's what you're saying.

Derek Frank: No, no. I'm just adding more information. Just filling it out.

Ridghaus: Go ahead and edit the first part of my response. Just go straight with…we should start this one over. So yeah, behind the scenes, Derek, do you want to handle the…

Haley Radke; I'm not cutting that out. That's fantastic. [laughs]

*Derek Frank: No, but I think what's funny about it is people walk into basically a hotel room and Andrew sets up lights and we've got a camera set up near the bed. And I think people walk in and they're like, “Okay, what are we doing in here?”

But it's really, we're just camped out in that room and we have a chair that's lit and people can sit in it and look good. We sit there and interview them. And then they leave and then the next person comes in. And in Denver we did that for like 13 hours or something?

Haley Radke: Oh my goodness!

Ridghaus: Mhmm, yeah. It was a long shoot.

Derek Frank: It was a long day. And, you know, Andrew's capturing the close-ups, sort of where they're just looking into the camera, doing that stuff. Yeah, so that's essentially what it looks like. And then maybe we eat at some point.

Ridghaus: Yeah, actually in Denver, we had Luke and Rich run over to Burger Shack, or something.

Derek Frank: Yeah, that's right. That's right.

Ridghuas: Picked up some stuff for us to kind of gobble in between.

Derek Frank: You know, what's nice about Denver though is we also picked up people who just hung out and helped us out. And kind of stuck around for like seven hours, you know, who just wanted to be part of it, too.

Ridghaus: Yeah, yeah. Denver is great.

And you know, and Dave (Dave Quint)--- We were fortunate to have another filmmaker at the conference. And so he actually put us in front of the camera, which is something that we didn't really have. We didn't have somebody with that skill set. And so Dave put us in front of the camera, and so we each got to share our own Six Word Memoir.

Derek Frank: And mine didn't make the final cut, because to be fair, I was 13 hours in. I don't think I really told a story, just this kind of rambled for about 20 minutes. Ridghaus did a great job. If you want to be better at me than mein something, I think your Six Word was stellar.

Haley Radke: So you need a redo, Derek.

Derek Frank: I feel like I need a redo, for sure. Yeah, yeah.

But that's the thing about it. It's like, I didn't think about it. You know, I just kind of did it and whatever came out, came out. And I feel like the beauty of it is that that can happen sometimes. And people just sort of talk and whatever comes out, comes out. And that's a good place to be, you know? You're just talking and whatever you say is what you're meant to be saying.

Haley Radke: So how did you get people to sign up for this? I mean, you mentioned before, Ridg, like these are really emotional, and you're capturing such an intimate part of someone's story. How do people set… Like, with my podcast, no one has to be on camera. It's just audio, they can be anonymous. It feels a little more intimidating to be on video.

Derek Frank: It's probably true. Yeah.

Ridghaus: You know… I would certainly agree with that, Haley. I think that it might be easier to just talk, but we set up everything ahead of time. You know, we've got the audio going, we've got the backdrop and the lights, and we've got our camera dialed in, so that when somebody sits down, we're not fiddling with a lot of things.

They basically sit down and they, and they start talking. And that's, again, testament to Derek's quality as a producer, to be able to just talk to someone and kind of let them forget that all of this is going into an electronic recording.

Derek Frank: Well, you know, the other thing too, is you're doing the B-roll of them writing their Six Words. So they come in and they're actually writing their Six Words and we're shooting some of that. So I feel like they're already prepped before they sit down and go to talk.

I guess I do—I feel like Boston, we got people; Ridghaus mostly just corralling people and, you know, taking friends in and being like, “Hey, you want to do this?” And then Denver was people saw the first one, and I feel like that was sort of like, Okay, I would like to be a part of this, I think.

Ridghaus: Well, yeah, that's why we had a 13 hour queue.

Derek Frank: Right, right.

Ridghaus: Like, as soon as we showed it in the big room, everybody was like, I'm doing that. There's a lot of trust and honor. I think that we are honored with the trust that people give us, in that we've handled these stories, you know, in a meaningful and thoughtful way.

Derek Frank: Yeah, because it is like you have to— I feel like there's (and actually someone said this in Boston) that someone a few years ago had come by and recorded people's stories, and then no one ever heard from those people, that person again who had recorded the stories.

Ridghaus: Yeah.

Derek Frank: And so, you know, there is a sense of trust that I think we had to earn. And the first folks who came in, I think, had no idea what they were getting into. They were mostly doing it… I think large— Let's say 75% were doing it for Ridghaus, because he asked.

Haley Radke: Well, it sounds like now that you've had so much more exposure, you're gonna have a longer day than 13 hours.

Derek Frank: [laughs]

Ridghaus: Well, I think, actually Haley, your model of setting up a schedule, I think is something that we need to begin integrating, because there are a lot of stories out there. And we want to hear them all. But, you know, with our budget, we just can't.

Haley Radke: Since starting the podcast—(I'm about a little over a year in). I basically had to, you know, close my waiting list because, similarly, I do not have the capacity to hear everyone's. And I wish I did. I really wish we had, you know, infinite resources to share people's stories.

So it is really challenging to say no, you know, because I never want to convey to someone like, “No, your story is not as important. So I can't. I don't have space for you.” Like I just… We've had enough rejection in our lives that I don't want to pile on, especially…

Ridghaus: Yeah, exactly.

Derek Frank: Yeah, I agree.

Haley Radke: Can you tell me some of the reactions that you've had once you've screened these? And then later on, once you've put them online for the general public to see?

Ridghaus: With the Six Word Adoption Memoirs, when we premiered in Denver, I think we were still cutting at the point. I mean, we were pretty much done cutting by the time (about two weeks before the show, before the conference), but the stories were still so tender in us, that I had yet to get through just watching it and making edits without crying.

And when we premiered, it was that way, too. But the audience responded the same way. Like they were moved to a degree that… It was just overwhelming. Like, I mean (I'm sure Derek remembers), but every time we went to talk for like the next 20-30 minutes, our voices were breaking up from the emotionality of it.

Derek Frank: You know what I remember doing was cutting. Remember we cut like a first one as a test, before we knew what it was. And I think it was Kathy's story? And I remember cutting it and it was just like… (I finished. It was like a long version of it, it was probably like two-and-a-half minutes). But I cut it, and I was like— I remember texting Andrew or emailing and saying like, “Oh my God, like I'm— This is moving, to me. I don't know.”

That was enough. You know, it was like, Okay, well, if this is doing this to me, like, hopefully other people will feel it, too.

Ridghaus: Yeah. And Derek cut five stories, I think. We put them under Transatlanticism by…

Derek Frank: Death Cab.

Ridghaus: Death Cab, yeah. And there was something about the pacing, you know, the piano, the guitar that we tried, we then tried to find music that had a similar VPM and tonal resonance to it. And I think we did for the first one. I really like our soundtrack for the second one, but we actually hired that out.

Haley Radke: So, something we have been fighting towards, I feel like, (in the adoptee adoption community here) is getting people to understand that separation from our family of origin is traumatic. And I feel like your videos are so impactful.

Now, do you—I don't know, like there is something so moving and powerful about it, that I think it has the power to shift people's perspectives about adoption. What are your thoughts on that? (And I'm talking big picture, changing the societal narrative about adoption.)

Do you think that your project has the momentum to do that?

Derek Frank: Well…

Ridghaus: The short answer is yes. Without going too much into that, Derek’s comment about hearing so many incredible stories, these stories are— they only come up at conferences, or they come up in support groups, or something like that. So these narratives are hidden from the public at large.

And so we wanted to find a medium by which we could distribute these more broadly, so that they could seep into the cultural consciousness. And I think once people begin to see the breadth of experiences that people have in the adoptive journey, from outright atrocious to, “I'm so thankful for all parts of my families.” I think that can shift cultural consciousness towards how adoption is perceived now.

Derek Frank: I think for me, like, you know… That first conference in 2014 was the first time I had— I was probably only a couple months in, maybe a year, into really thinking about adoption and how it impacted my life. And really how I felt about it and exploring that.

And being surrounded by so many stories, you know, I did have that moment of like, Well, why the hell haven't I heard this stuff before? You know, Why…? Everyone's story is so complicated, and so emotional, and so nuanced, and has all these facets to it. How come no one's talking about this? Like, that's how I felt.

And I think that was kind of also why I wanted to capture some stories and make something, make a movie of some sort about it. Because, I don't know… I just hadn't heard any of this before. I just knew my story and that was it.

Haley Radke: Well, and there's something so powerful, too… So for my podcast, having a voice, someone's story. And then your video project—I mean, seeing someone's face and hearing their words, you know, coming out of their mouth... I mean, you can't argue with, “This is my lived experience and I am saying it out of my mouth” And you can see, like, you know…

Derek Frank: Yeah.

Haley Radke: Yeah, so powerful.

Derek Frank: No, that's true. It's embodied in a way.

And I think— Andrew/Ridghaus, what's the thing that you would say to people? Do you remember when you were doing the B-roll, you sort of had this little patter that you were giving them, about what you were doing?

Ridghaus: Yeah. So, I think the most uncomfortable part of the experience was when I would catch the closeup portrait at the end, (you know, that we come back and forth to, at various points). And what I wanted them to think about is: you are in the store, you know, and this is someone who, having heard your story, could turn, and look, and just see you. And look in your face and understand, you know, “This is your experience. That you are just like they are.” You know? “Just like they are, you've just had these other experiences.”

So, I wanted there to be a level of humanity that was immediately present in that portrait, in that closeup.

Derek Frank: I also feel like any sort of emotional power that it has, too, though, is somewhat related to such an unrecognized sort of minority as adoptees/adopted people. You know? Like in a set of experiences that are sort of invisible to the public at large.

And so, some of it is just sort of the shock of hearing story after story, in ways that you've never heard them before. And even for adoptees, I think, to hear all of those together. And be like, “Oh!” And recognize yourself in them. Because I recognize myself in all the stories, you know?

And there's something— I wonder if we do well, if we make enough projects, and if we tell enough stories, and it starts to seep in: Would the emotional power diminish? Because, “Okay, now everyone understands. It's not surprising anymore.” And that would be a good thing, but I wonder about that, like 10 years from now, like, “Oh, adoption is sad. That's not surprising to me. I know. Everyone knows that.”

Ridghaus: Yeah.

Haley Radke: Oh my gosh, 10 years. Can you imagine?

Derek Frank: [laughs] I do often.

Ridghaus: But you know, it's taken us so long to get here. Like to get to this place, it's, you know, 100 years of…whatever.

Derek Frank: No, that's right. You have to remember that I've come of age and come sort of to consciousness around adoption stuff at a particular moment in history, when already so much work has been done. Haley Radke: That's right.

Ridghaus: And I think one of the things that we didn't really get to mention was, Derek had mentioned documentarian Sean Dunne. And he had performed some of these closeups, you know, of interviewees’ faces in a documentary he called Florida Man. And…

Derek Frank: That's right. That's right.

Ridghaus: Yeah. And how he was able to just kind of suspend a moment in time and see, you know, a human being was beautiful. And so that's what we wanted to capture in this.

So I don't know—I mean, even if I think the narrative does infiltrate the social consciousness of [adoption], there's a breadth of emotions around adoption. And we want it, where it has to happen, to be better than it is. That even then, I still feel like these are beautiful stories. And people will still be attentive, because they're human.

Derek Frank: Yeah. I agree with that too, actually. And I'm glad you mentioned Florida Man, because that's a beautiful film. It's free on Vimeo, I believe, if people want to check that out.

Yeah. And the stories, you know— The thing about adoption stories (and David Quint, again, talked about, we had a great conversation about this) that adoption stories have so much, just like the basics of myths and stories, you know, family stuff, and intimate relationship stuff, and secrets, and they're just like…

I mean, there's a reason adopted narratives get used in all kinds of popular culture, and entertainment, myths, and Greek tragedy, and the Bible, and… You know? Stories of adopted people are sort of inherently dramatic, and interesting, and meaningful.

Haley Radke: Wow. Thank you guys so much.

Is there anything else that you want to touch on that I didn't ask you about, before we go on? Like, Derek, is there anything, you know, super kind you want to say to Ridghaus? Because he's been complimenting you up there.

Derek Frank: He has been, apparently, just to make me uncomfortable. [all laugh]

You know what I was going to say though, is, so I remember going in and doing the first 6WAM in Boston, and we had talked about Florida Man, and we talked about what we were going to try to do. But then I remember seeing the footage back the first time and being like, Oh man, he got it.

And not only did he do it (because he shot it and he lit it. And so the look was his). And I was like, Man, not only is it the thing that I said I hoped we would do, but I think it looks better than what I had hoped. And that's always awesome when you collaborate with somebody, and then they sort of one up what you're hoping for. I don't think I ever told him that, but that's true.

Ridghaus: Thank you.

Derek Frank: There you go.

Haley Radke: There you go.

Derek Frank: On your podcast.

Haley Radke: Yes, forever. I am going to, of course, recommend people go and check out the Six Word Adoption Memoir Project. And I'm wondering, is there any way that, like… How can people support this project if they just fall in love with it, like I have?

Ridghaus: Well, you know, you can write us into your will.

Haley Radke: Hmm. Okay. Yep.

Ridghaus: That's a good question, Haley. I don't know if we have an answer for that yet. Last year…

Derek Frank: We'd like to have an answer.

Ridghaus: Yeah, last year we had a person give us a couple of checks, you know, just to cover some of our expenses to do this. Because, you know, really this is—I mean, this is something that we just believe in. And we don't yet have a model for support. I saw, do you have a Patreon on your page?

Haley Radke: I sure do.

Ridghaus: Yeah. And maybe that's something we need to look at, but right now, directing other people to go to the site, share it, come to our Facebook page: 6WAM Project, Six Word Adoption Memoir Project is what it’s called.

Derek Frank: That's it. Yeah.

Ridghaus: 6WAM Project is in the slashes. 6WAM project. You know, like the page, offer comments…

Derek Frank: Yeah. Say hi when you see us.

Haley Radke: All right. And write you into their wills.

Ridghaus: Yes. Write us into the wills. We are non-profitable. [laughter]

Haley Radke: Well, I imagine it costs more than podcasting, and ditto. [laughter]

Ridghaus: Well, actually, we're fortunate in that both of us work for film schools. And so, we know people, we have access to good gear. We could work on post for almost no expense at all. So a lot of these, a lot of the costs are deferred through our professional institutions.

Haley Radke: Oh, that's awesome. That's really great. Oh, okay.

Before we get to recommending the resources, Ridg, when I interviewed Derek and he was telling me his story, I said, “Oh my gosh, you guys!” When you're describing your birth fathers, I was like, Are you talking about the same person?

Ridghaus: Hmm. Yeah.

Haley Radke: You have so many similarities. I mean, it's so interesting that you found each other.

Ridghaus: Yeah. That's— I mean, honestly, that's something that I cherish about Derek is having those experiences, but it's also heartbreaking that our birth fathers were never able to sit, meet, you know, share wine, and…

Derek Frank: Yeah. We also look alike, apparently, when we grow our beards out.

Ridghaus: That's right.

Derek Frank: We've been told that.

Haley Radke: Okay.

Ridghaus: I think those people are high, but…

Derek Frank: It was in Denver.

Ridghaus: It was in Denver. And by high, I mean altitude.

Derek Frank: Yeah, clearly.

Ridghaus: They were suffering from altitude sickness.

Haley Radke: Right, right.

Ridghaus: Delusional. Derek Frank: Yeah.

Haley Radke: Okay. Well, let's move on and talk about some things we're going to recommend.

So like I said, I want to recommend that everyone goes and watches your projects and they can find them on facebook.com/6wamproject. And the links to the videos are there.

What do you guys want to recommend today?

Derek Frank: I'd recommend David Quint's film, Father Unknown.

Ridghaus: Yeah.

Derek Frank: I think that's an excellent—it's a great film. I mean, it was definitely moving.

Haley Radke: Yeah. Can you tell us a little bit about it? I've never seen it.

Derek Frank: David's father, Urban— David's a filmmaker. His father, Urban grew up in an orphanage in Switzerland. And when David was 35, he and his father go back to Switzerland and David starts recording that trip on his iPhone. And pretty soon into the trip, David realizes that, Oh my God, my father's having— This is an experience that we're both having, and it's super meaningful.

And so what ends up happening on that trip, is Urban sort of rediscovers part of his life that he had sort of locked away and compartmentalized. And I think in the process, David and Urban rekindle a relationship that had probably either never existed, or had gone dormant for a long time.

It's not just about Urban finding out about birth family and stuff, it's about David and Urban reconnecting. And it's a really beautiful movie. And it took a lot, I think… There's a lot of honesty in it and there's a lot of sort of rawness to it. But David's also a really careful filmmaker, and he spent a lot of time crafting the story around the iPhone footage that he had.

So there's some beautiful animation to really set up the story, and he was really thoughtful about how to make Urban's experience meaningful to an audience who doesn't know Urban, and doesn't know David. And I think that that's the mark of a really good storyteller. So I'd highly recommend seeing that film.

Ridghaus: Yeah, David has a great producer on that: Kti. She's really into the story. And so they've— Like Derek said, they've really crafted this beautiful tale, where Urban finds his father and David finds his father, you know? So it's a domino thing.

Derek Frank: I didn't want to give away what happens. Spoiler alert.
Ridghaus: It says, Father Unknown.

Derek Frank: No, that's true. I know. I know. I'm just saying.

Ridghaus: But then if you look at the ink…

Derek Frank: Why don't you just go say it out?

Ridghaus: The ink says, “known.”

Derek Frank: I know. I know.

Ridghaus: So if you're not paying attention to the graphic elements, then maybe it's a spoiler.

Derek Frank: Yeah. Okay.

Ridghaus: People knew that Titanic was going down, and it was still like the best selling movie of, you know…

Derek Frank: No, no, that's true. That's true. That's true. I'm just saying I was trying. I was doing my best.

Haley Radke: And I will link to that in the show notes. Oh my gosh. You guys are…

Derek Frank: Nobody cares. Gotta be careful.

Haley Radke: So thoughtful, Derek. Oh, that's wonderful.

Derek Frank: That's all. That's all I'm looking for. That's great.

Ridghaus: Okay. Yeah. So, I'll go ahead and spoil Six Word Adoption Memoirs, too: they all get adopted.

Haley Radke: Oh, yeah. Wait. And do all the Six Word Adoptions—are they all just six words, or like how loose are you on that?

Ridghaus: Oh no, we're pretty strict on this subject.

Derek Frank: There's no wiggle room there.

Haley Radke: Okay. Okay. That is wonderful. I'll link to that in the show notes. What is your next recommendation?

Ridghaus: I think it would be criminal to not mention April Dinwoodie's efforts over the last few years, between AdoptMent and her podcast series, the articles that she's been writing for HuffPost and Medium. April is really—

She's working at that social consciousness, and she's just such an incredible force in sharing and shaping the future of adoption and adoption reform. So, Born in June, Raised in April, just… And she has her new website up.

Haley Radke: I just saw it on Facebook. She posted a link to it. Yeah, it looks awesome.

Derek Frank: I second the idea that April is kind of a force and I love her recent conversation with Sheila Jaffe, who's, I guess a friend of hers and also a casting director in New York. The deep dive into adoption stories is pretty great. You know, like we get to do 20 minutes, and she gets to do like an hour (the way that you do, as well). So yeah, they're kind of fun to listen to.

Haley Radke: Wonderful. Yeah. I do love her, her show as well.

Derek Frank: I just realized we were talking for an hour, too.So I was like, Oh, I guess that's not so strange.

Haley Radke: [laughs] Well, her first year of podcasts are quite short and now it seems that she switched to an interview format. So I'm excited to see where she goes next with that.

Derek Frank: That's right. That's right. They were shorter. That's right. Good thing someone's paying attention.

Haley Radke: Well, she kind of did reflections based on the— maybe if there was a special event in a certain month, or a season change. And it was kind of commentary on that, in conjunction with the theme of adoption. So, yeah, really powerful.

All right, you guys, you're going to get one more. What's your last recommendation?

Derek Frank: Oh, we got one more.

Ridghaus: Well, I think I would be remiss if I didn't mention Anne Heffron. Anne is writing. Anne is using the creative nonfiction genre in exceptional ways. She's vulnerable, she's open, funny, engaging. And, so for those of you that are interested in creative nonfiction, I don't know if anybody right now is doing it better than Anne Heffron.

Haley Radke: And you can find that anneheffron.com. And of course, everyone has heard about her book on this podcast before, since I plug it every every show, pretty much.

Derek Frank: Have you plugged Dear Adoption (the website) yet?

Haley Radke: I have. Would you like to talk about Dear Adoption?

Derek Frank: Only that I love it. And I think Reshma is doing great work there curating that. Yeah. I find it endlessly, sort of moving. It's not much different from what the Six Word Adoption Memoir is, right?

It's like you give— Writing letters to adoption. So the Dear Adoption idea, it gives people a format, sort of like a nonfiction format, which is great. You know? That framework, I think, is powerful.

Haley Radke: Absolutely. And I love that she makes space for everyone's voice, everyone's opinion. You can be anonymous or not. It's very safe. And what I've found especially moving are some of the letters she's had written in from young people.

Derek Frank: Hmm. Yeah, I agree. I feel like— Sometimes I read those, and I want to feel like we could make a video. So like, you know, an “It gets better” video series. But I can't. I'm not necessarily in a position where I feel like I can say that. It's like, “Nah, it's still kind of complicated and hard and weird.”

Haley Radke: I was like, Does it?

Derek Frank: Well, it's still kind of what it is. Uh… [laughs]

Haley Radke: Oh, well, I love both Anne and Reshma so much. They are dear friends, so I'm delighted that you guys love them, too.

Thank you so much for the excellent conversation. It's been a delight chatting with you both. You made me laugh quite a bit, so that was really fun.

And so people can best connect with you online through your Facebook page. Is that right?

Ridghaus: Yep. That's what we prefer. You know, and if you do happen to catch us at a conference, buy us a beer. It gets funnier, the more beers that we get into.

Derek Frank: [laughs] And then it just gets sadder.

Haley Radke: Oh no… Well, if I would have known that I would have shipped you one before we talked.

Ridghaus: Ohhh…. What a missed opportunity.

Derek Frank: Well, if it makes you feel any better, I had one before we talked.

Ridghaus: I didn't. I didn't have a beer.

Derek Frank: Well, you were in the flow, anyway.

Ridghaus: Okay… It's just because of you, man. Like, you just— Your whole vibe, it just invites me in.

Derek Frank: You make me drunk.

Ridghaus: I'm just surfing on the Derek Vibe.

Derek Frank: Oh, that's— I don't know how I feel about that.

Ridghaus: It's magical, man. It's magical.

Haley Radke; Well, what a wonderful way to wrap up. Oh, thank you both so much for sharing.

Ridghaus: Well, Haley, when we got to interview a couple of weeks ago and then, yeah, and then follow up today. It's been great. I'm excited to hear these. And I hate hearing my own voice, but I will listen.

Derek Frank: Yeah. No, great talking with you, too.

Haley Radke: Ridghaus and Derek wanted me to tell you they have some opportunities coming up to connect with you in person. Go on over to their Facebook page and there will be details about all of those upcoming events.

I wanna say a huge thank you to my Patreon supporters. You are literally making it possible for me to keep producing this podcast for you. I have a secret adoptee-only Facebook group, and some other rewards (depending on the level of monthly support you sign up for). If you would like to stand with me and ensure adoptee voices are shared, head over to adopteeson.com/partner, and you can check out the options for support there.

Friends, I have fallen in love with podcasting. It is my absolute favorite. And if you get to know any podcasters, at all, you'll find that some of us get addicted and we start itching to do new shows. I want to let you in on a secret. I have been working on a second podcast and I will be letting you in on more details soon, but first I'm going to be heading over to Patreon and sharing the news there with my supporters. And they're also going to get sneak preview access before I launch. So click through in the show notes to adopteeson.com/partner. And if you sign up to partner with me, then you will be one of the first to hear that new show.

Would you please tell just one friend about the episode today? I know you know someone who's adopted and maybe they've had some mixed feelings about reaching out to their family of origin. Perhaps hearing Derek's story and his concerns about finding his mother may help your friend know that they're not alone.

Make sure you're subscribed to the show in your favorite podcatcher, like Apple Podcasts, Google Play, Stitcher, iHeart. And you guys are going to get next week's episode delivered automatically. Thanks for listening. Let's talk again, next Friday.

Derek Frank: How's this sound, everybody?

Haley Radke: Oh…

Ridghaus: Better.

Haley Radke: So much better.

Derek Frank: Really? Oh, wow. Look at that. All right.

Haley Radke: You genuinely sounded like your head was in a potato sack. Like…

Ridghaus: Well…

Derek Frank: That's how I like it.

Ridghaus: That's just kind of Derek's every day.

Derek Frank: Yeah. It also might be due to the fact that I definitely washed my jeans with my headphones in my pocket. [everyone laughs] So, it had something to do with it.

40 Ridghaus - Am I Adopted?

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/40


Haley Radke: You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. This is Season 3, episode 1: Ridghaus. I'm your host, Haley Radke.

Welcome to Season 3 of Adoptees On. This season, I will be introducing you to some extraordinary people. And while we listen to their stories and experiences of being adopted, I invite you to consider an ongoing thread that will be weaving through these episodes: healing and creativity.

This is Part 1 of a special two-part premiere, so you're going to meet Ridghaus today and next week, Derek Frank. You may have seen one of their incredible videos entitled “Six Word Adoption Memoirs," where Ridg and Derek ask, “If you had six words to tell your adoption story, what six words would you choose?”

We'll get to talk about that next week when I chat with Ridg and Derek together. So make sure you're subscribed to the show in your favorite pod catcher like Apple Podcasts, Google Play, Stitcher, iHeartRadio, and you'll get next week's episode automatically. So easy.

Today, Ridg shares his story and I'm not spoiling anything by telling you, one: Go get your Kleenex right now. And two: I was hanging off every single word that he said. Let's listen in.

I'm so pleased to welcome Ridghaus to Adoptees On. Welcome, Ridg. How are you?

Ridghaus: Thank you, Haley. I'm good.

Haley Radke: Awesome. I'm so excited to talk to you because I've followed your work for quite awhile, and so I'd love it if you would just share with us your story.

Ridghaus: You know, I never quite know where to start the story, because there are two distinct moments in time. I tend to think about when I was 19, because I was engaged to a girl and we broke up. And after we broke up, she called me to tell me that she was pregnant. You know, obviously, it was an unexpected thing for us. We tried to get back together.

There were still too many hurt feelings and we ended up not–-I mean, the relationship just didn't work out. And so we talked about, what kind of home do we want our child to grow up in? (Because both of us had come from dysfunctional families.) And she had a friend who reached out to her and said, “You know, maybe you wanna consider adoption.”

And so we did. And we actually had an open adoption that stayed open and, you know, we were able to be a part of Zach's life from childhood all the way through adulthood. You know, now he's got his own career living on his own in another state. Despite the hurt, the trauma of it, we both had as positive and experienced as you could have.

And then I turn 35. Zach is 16 at that point he invites me and his birth mother Rebecca to Thanksgiving dinner with his family, and kind of their extended family. And it was the first time that Rebecca, me, Zach, Colleen had all been together since he was born. And so I remember sitting at the Thanksgiving dinner table, just kind of looking around. (By this point I have five other children. Three of them are with me, and Rebecca has taken in a foster, in-family adoption.) It was just one of those things where I'm like, Wow, I never would've thought about my life moving to this moment right here, where I can see Zach. And the relationship with Rebecca didn't work out, but I've got these other children... And, you know, it was good.

And a month after that, I get a letter from the state of Kansas (where I live)that said, “Please contact us. We have information that may be of interest.” And so this was just after Christmas. So I called them and I said, you know, “Hey, this is me. You said you had information.” They double checked everything, and they said, “Well, we've received a letter from the birth mother and she wants to be in touch with you.”

Of course immediately, I think of that Thanksgiving and I'm like… Well, Zach's birth mother was sitting right across from me. You know, we haven't been in touch. We've been able to communicate when we’ve had to over the years, but we haven't really been in touch with each other. And so I get this really just odd sensation, like, Why would this happen now?

And so I talked to the social worker further and confirm, she is who she says she is. And she needs to check a couple of other things about my family history. And once we clear that up (her name was Tina). Tina says, “So would you like to be in touch with your birth mother?” And I said, “Oh wait— You mean Zach's birth mother, right?” She said, “No, I mean, your birth mother.” And I said, “But I'm not—I'm not adopted.” And she said, “I'm sorry. I mean, I'm not sorry, but I don't think that I should be the first person to tell you this. You're adopted.”

And I immediately burst into tears. I asked her if she could call me back in a few minutes, or if I could call her back, because I just really needed to compose myself. So here I was, a 35-year-old man, one son that I had relinquished into adoption, five other kids. And for the first time in my life, I was finding out that I was adopted.

And then I had two simultaneous thoughts. One of them was, Nobody ever told me. And then the other one was, Yeah, of course. I'm adopted. It all makes sense now.

Haley Radke: What made sense for you?

Ridghaus: I wasn't like anyone at all in my family. You know, my adoptive parents were… They did their best. I mean, they tried their hardest, but they both barely made it through high school. And I was doing high school work, you know, when I was in fifth grade.

I was blue-eyed, red hair. They were both hazel and brown eyes with black hair. And despite being fascinated by science, and genetics, and all that stuff, I never took Mendel's formulas and applied them to my own life. You know, suddenly I was like, There's this other set of parents out there in the world who, you know, maybe they look like me. Maybe they're creative and you know, they like to read, and…

It was obviously a shock. But, you know, then I started to live, you know, later, (in what I would read about, that kind of adoptees go through). You know, the, I'm a prince, you know. Or, I'm royalty, and these other people are out there. So that was what made sense. What made sense to me was that I wasn't like them at all. And I always felt out of place. I always felt odd, and I never understood why.

Haley Radke: What happens next? Do you call her back? Tina?

Ridghaus: Yeah. So I collect myself. I kind of get the—I get the tears out.

Haley Radke: Like I can't even picture that. I'm sorry. I'm just like, I can't even.

Ridghaus: Yeah. It was just like a rock dropped on me from out of the sky, just totally unexpected. And it felt burdensome. Like this knowledge now felt burdensome to me. So the first thing that I did was I called my adoptive parents (you know, now I say adoptive parents). Then, I'm like, you know, If somebody knows the truth to this, it's gonna be my folks.

And so I called. And I had been—really I had been estranged from them for a while. We were unlike each other. They had different life goals than I did. I took a period of time where I stopped calling (like I was the one who would call and kind of check in every week, and stop by the house and see how they were). And I took about two years where I stopped doing that, and I never heard from them. They didn't call. They didn't check in.

And so I felt like I wasn't as important to them as they had been for me. So we had been in kind of this rocky place already, but I had seen my dad more recently and more often than my mom. So I called her house and my mom answers. And I said, you know, “Hey, I wanna talk to dad.” And she said, “He's doing laundry. What do you need?” I said, “Well, I just have a quick question. Am I adopted?” And she comes back with. “Well, you were born at this hospital, by this doctor. This was your birth weight, on this day…”

So she gave me a bunch of facts, which wasn't really what I asked for. And then she said, “Well, you know, who would say something like this to you?” And I said, “Funny that you should ask. It happens to be the state of Kansas. They're under the impression that I'm adopted.” And she said “Well, no. That's just crazy.” I said, “Okay, when you see dad, have him give me a call.” And then we hung up.

So I called Tina back right after that, and she was actually still reeling from being the first person to tell me. Because I was the first adoptee that she'd spoken with who didn't already know that they were adopted.

Haley Radke: Right.

Ridghaus: So then she's, “Hey, can I call you back in a few minutes? You know, I'm still kind of processing this.” I'm like, “Sure. You know, I've waited 35 years. You know? What's another 20 minutes or so?” So she didn't really take that long. She called me back a couple of minutes later. And, you know, mentally, I was like, “Listen, you know, your question was, ‘Do I wanna be in touch with my birth mother?’ And the answer is yes. I do. Whatever information you have, give it to me.”

So she said that she would send me a form that would release all of my records, but that she could send me both the form and the request for contact in the same envelope. (And so this was a Monday that we were talking.) And I checked the mail, like I watched for the mail carrier to arrive, hurried down to a mailbox to check, you know, Did it come today?

So I lived that life of that adolescent adoptee, you know, who fantasizes, Well, maybe my parents are in academia. Maybe they're in film. And then you start to think, Oh, well? You know, I kind of do have Tom Petty's nose. Maybe I'm related to Tom Petty, or something like that. And then on Friday, the mail arrived. And I hurried down to the mailbox, and picked it up on my way back.

You know, of course there's this manila envelope from the state. I open it up before I step into the house. I walk in the house, I pull out this pile of papers, and on the top is a photocopy of— (It looked like a 5x7, you know). And there was this woman's cursive handwriting and it said, “I'm trying to find Baby Boy (Kyle?). I would like to know how he is. Please reach out if you ever wanna talk or if you need anything.” And then it was signed, Barbara. And it had an address and a telephone number.

And it was one of those moments in my life where I just don't quite remember where the telephone came from, but suddenly it was in my hand. You know, like I was barely finished reading this photocopy, and I looked down at my left hand and there's the phone.

And so immediately, I dialed the number. Woman answers, and I said, “I'm trying to reach Barbara.” She says, “This is she.” I said, “Well, my name is Andrew.” (Obviously I wasn't Ridg, then.) I said, “My name is Andrew. And really, I don't know what to say next.” That was it. I wanted to call, I wanted to say my name, hear her voice. And I was done with plans at that point. Like I had nothing else.

So I hear her take in breath (you know, on the other side of the phone), and I imagined that she was probably sitting down. And it's funny for me to talk to her now because she remembers this moment differently than I do. She says, “Well, do you still live in Kansas?” And just like when, you know, Tina said, “You're adopted.” When she said, “Do you still live in Kansas?”

There was something about her voice. There was something about—there's like a space in time where I'm like, I know that voice. There's this comfort that immediately just came over me and I knew, Yeah, this is it. Despite what my adoptive parents were saying, (you know, that I wasn't adopted). I was. And this woman here is my mother,

Haley Radke: Like, what does that do to your headspace? Thirty-five years of living a lie? I don't understand. How would you phrase that? What does that do to your mind?

Ridghaus: You know, just like the initial shock of finding out that I'm adopted, there was this, Oh, of course I'm adopted. And, Oh my God, what a betrayal. Hearing her voice was at once both comforting, as well as completely debilitating. Because all the things that I thought that I had known, I had to revisit and see if they were actually known, if they had substance.

And so honestly, over the next two years, (if I were to put this into some concrete terms), my Lincoln Logs all got knocked down. Right? This house, you know, the little fence, all of those little things that come with the Lincoln Logs. Everything got taken down, to just rubble.

And then I just worked at investigating every memory, you know, like the little Lincoln Logs. Like I picked each one up and I said, Oh, does this have… You know, is this of substance? Is this true? And I just started to rebuild it. And it really took two years before I landed in a place feeling, you know, like I had rebuilt something.

I really wanted to push “pause" on every single part of my life. I didn't want my kids to grow any more. I didn't wanna have to finish my master's thesis. I didn't wanna have to see anybody. I really just wanted to have time to dedicate to this. The world didn't stop in between all of the other events. And that's what I was doing. Like my mind was just constantly working at analyzing every childhood memory and seeing what was still true.

Haley Radke: Hmm. Did you grow up with siblings?

Ridghaus: Yeah. I had a sister who was five years younger. And to kind of go back to the phone call with Tina, once we conducted our business, I said, “Tina, I should ask, you know, I have a younger sister. I don't know if she is their natural child or not.” And Tina said, “You know, of course, I can't talk to you about another person's information.” And I said, “I know. I was just kind of thinking aloud.” And she said, “You should have her call us.” I'm like, “Okay.” I hope Tina doesn't get in trouble.

Haley Radke: Should I bleep out her name?

Ridghaus: That would be funny. She's now in the Witness Protection Program.

You know, so she didn't reveal anything except to say that, you know, my sister should reach out, to just verify her identity. And then she never did. About a year, maybe a year-and-a-half after I discovered, she found a letter that had been written between my adoptive mother and her own mother (my adoptive mother's mother), talking about adopting my sister.

Haley Radke: So you were both adopted and they didn't tell either of you?

Ridghaus: We were both adopted, yeah. But she was a lot more like them, you know? Dark hair, dark eyes. She was interested in the things that they were interested in. You know, I grew up watching Notre Dame football, listening to classical music. You know, I liked opera, I liked to read.

My adoptive parents were Nascar, cheap beer, and rotgut whiskey. We were just different, you know? And my sister was more like them.

Haley Radke: She felt like she fit, so she didn't necessarily need to… Yeah.

Ridghaus: And it was funny, like at the time I didn't know about the narratives. I didn't know about the “good adoptee.” I didn't know about the “bad adoptee.” You know, like I didn't know about those things, because we weren't raised adopted. But she was the “good adoptee.”

Haley Radke: So let's go back to— We've got these two years where you are just sifting through your life and figuring out what's real. Am I remembering things correctly? And then you also have this son, Zach, that you relinquished. How does that kind of play into this?

Ridghaus: You know, I reached out to Zach pretty quickly, because that was part of what I investigated, too. What did I do? You know? And he and I had some pretty significant conversations around this. And Zach has his own story, you know?

I only mentioned his adoptive mother because at that point of his life, his adoptive father had left the family. So it was just her raising Zach and his younger sister. And that's Zach's story. So about the time that I kind of emerged from, you know, this analysis and kind of contemplative restfulness, and started to figure out, Okay, here are the things that I can stand on. Here are the truths of my life.

Zach was graduating from high school. And so I took Zach… I went to his graduation, of course. We spent a few days with his adoptive family, and Rebecca (his birth mother) came and we had three or four days all together with Zach at his graduation. And then Zach and my other two oldest sons hopped in a car and drove to Seattle to meet my birth father, his mother and father, as well as his sister. (So these would've been Zach's great-grandparents, and grandfather, and aunt.) And so we basically road tripped, you know, camped in a couple of places. We lost the poles to one of our tents.

And so all four of us, we're in Idaho. It's freezing because, you know, it's May, but we're at elevation, so it's freezing outside. But we're in this two person tent, all four of us. And we're laying like mackerels, you know, head to toe. And we have to open the tent in the middle of the night because we're just generating so much body heat that we're welcoming this freezing air.

We had these really interesting moments on the way out. And it was a good time for Zach to spend time with Drew and Ethan. And then we get there and we spend three days with my birth father Ben and his family. So we took a four-generation picture, and then Zach has to be back in Colorado for his job. And so we drive straight back from Seattle. And you know, it was just a memorable time.

And so it was maybe another year-and-a-half/two years later that I was reading some— Of course, I was reading Primal Wound, reading some of Ron Nydam’s stuff. And I come across this statement in Ron Nydam’s book Adoptees Come of Age, where he is talking about how we are continually recreating the situation of our relinquishment. And I started to think about Zach and, you know, me relinquishing, having been relinquished (even though I didn't— I only knew that in a pre-verbal kind of sense).

And I just called Zach and I'm like, “Listen, I wanna let you know something.” I said, “I made a mistake. Rebecca and I didn't work out. And I have nothing against your adoptive parents, but I shouldn't have let go of you. I know what Ben has meant to me. I know what meeting Barbara and knowing those relationships, those have been formative. Those have been significant.” And I said, “If I ever had to make that decision again, I wouldn't. Okay? I would rather be in poverty and with you than ever give you up again.”

And he said, “You know, I didn't know the words to that question. But I've always wondered it.” And I just said, “Never again.” It doesn't change what happened, who he is, and we still have a— I mean, we're still in contact and communicate, and have relationship with each other, but it would've been different.

Haley Radke: You know, just as an adoptee, hearing those words, you know, that you're just— You're wanted, right?

Ridghaus: Yeah.

Haley Radke: He can just know that. I can't. I just cannot get through anything without crying, apparently.

Ridghaus: Well, these— We're talking about core things, preverbal. I mean, they, yeah... Yeah. Thinking about Zach, I mean, that was a big part of just my own journey.

Haley Radke: Mm-hmm. Can you share a little bit more about Barbara and Ben, and connecting with them? And sort of how that happened?

Ridghaus: Yeah, so Barbara was immediately receptive and we spent about three months on the phone. Like that first day, we probably spoke for six to eight hours. Just a free, kind of natural connection. And, you know, my kids were in three different schools, so one came home at 3 (or 2:30, or whatever). So I'd hang up the phone, make sure they get settled, get them a snack or whatever, and then call her back. And then an hour later, and then somebody else would come home, and I'd get off the phone and do all that again. And then we probably spent another, you know, two or three hours after those three interruptions.

[laughs] One of the things— I had just watched a TV show where an adoptee had been contacted by his birth father. And his birth father was like, “We never got to go fishing. We never got to do these things, you know?” And then over a period of a few weeks, the birth father tells the adoptee, “Son, I'm dying. I need a kidney, and your blood type is my blood type.” And so the son agrees to give the father the kidney. And then the birth father disappears.

So this is on my mind, like I've just seen this on a TV show. So, you know, within the first week of conversation with Barbara, I said, “Soooo, why now? You know, I'm 35 years old. Why now?” I said, “Are you sick? Do you need a kidney?” [laughs] She's like, “No. No” She said, “Actually I thought I would hear from you when you were 21.”

And when she tells this story now (like when we talk about it now), she says, “I was thinking to myself, Well I sure know who I can't come to if I need a heart...” [laughs] But that's— It's just something we laugh about. Because you know, it was a legitimate question. Not, Did she really need a kidney, but, Why now? I mean I was willing to…

Haley Radke: No, I know. It's just so funny, right? But we do think about those things in the back of your mind. Like, What is…?

Ridghaus: But I felt the freedom to ask her those things. You know, and like our relationship has been very open. So what she said was she thought she would hear from me when I was 21, and then she didn't. And then she didn't want to intrude on my life, and so she waited until I was 22, and then 24. And then by the time I turned 25, she thought, Either he hates me, or he's dead. And I have to know, I just have to know.

And so she was living in another state and so she had to go through the forms and get them notarized, and filed with the right departments. And it just took a period of time. So she had actually finished the form when I was 32, and it was about to expire. Like it had another three or four months before that form was going to expire, and she would have to fill out a new one if she wanted to maintain an open registry with the state (when they got ahold of me).

She said that was it, that she'd always wondered. That she never passed my birthday without sending off balloons, or having some quiet time, or just pulling some friends together for support. But that she'd always wanted to know where I was, and how I was doing.

Haley Radke: I wanna just pause there. When you're talking to her and you tell her, “I didn't know I was adopted.” What was her reaction to that?

Ridghaus: I don't think she ever judged them. Like she never said, “That's ridiculous.” What she said was, “I couldn't imagine that you wouldn't have known.” And that was about the extent of her response to that.

One of the ways that I wasn't open with Barbara (initially) was, you know, she would ask about childhood. And being raised in a home with two daily alcoholics has challenges. And I didn't wanna talk about what childhood was like.

Haley Radke: Why do you think we do that, Ridg? Like hide those ugly things from original parents?

Ridghaus: I could already see that she suffered from the relinquishment. I didn't want to add to the suffering, you know, by saying, “Yeah, not only did you relinquish me. But they were kind of **** parents.”

Haley Radke: Yeah. Yeah.

Ridghaus: After about the tenth time I heard what a good job my parents did in raising me. (You know, and this was over a two-year period of time, when I was sorting through all this stuff.) One day I just had to stop her and my paternal grandmother Marge, and I said, “Listen, I don't wanna talk about my childhood. But it wasn't easy. And it's something that I survived. And I'm the person that I am not because of the way that they raised me, but in spite of their parenting. And I really don't wanna talk about it.”

And at that point, I hadn't even spoken about it with my kids, or my wife, or anybody. They knew that I had left home at 16 and that was it. So it was one of those things that actually facilitated some healing (for me), to finally to begin to talk about some of those things.

Then, on the other hand, you know, Barbara was a nurse, she worked for a law firm as a medical malpractice consultant. She had taught English in Italy. She and her husband had a winery. So, you know, a very kind of vibrant, world-traveled life.

Haley Radke: Did they have other kids?

Ridghaus: Yeah. She has another son who was about the same age as my sister, growing up. His name was Liam. Different father, same mother. And you know, Liam and I have been able to connect. And we went to Ireland a few years ago and walked through the country and saw U2. Just had a really good time together. So that's been a good relationship.

Ben, his dad was an engineer for Boeing. Ben is a landscape designer/architect, builds houses, and makes wine. He also has a winery. So, it was peculiar for me to land in this creative, artistic… (I don't wanna say tasteful, you know…). But I mean, these are people that they appreciate food and wine. I mean, they weren't gluttonous, but they wanted to savor these moments of life, which is just a lot different than what I grew up with, so...

Ben is ambidextrous (like me). And there was a day where Ben and I were working on a house together, and I watched him switch from right to left hand with this power tool. And I thought, That's it. That's where that comes from. And at the same moment, I remembered: I was probably 11/12, and I was playing basketball or throwing a football or something. And my adoptive father said, “How do you do that?” And I didn't know what he was talking about. I'm like, “What?” He said, “Well, you're using both of your hands equally. How do you do that?” I said, “I don't know. Doesn't everybody?”

So on both sides of the family, you know, Barbara's redheaded, Ben has this very lean, lithe figure that I had for… (well, until I got married). So I finally started to see myself in the world, from somebody who had come before. And that, too, was healing.

Haley Radke: I'm so glad that you had all these positive things come out of this.

Okay, so you said when you called Barbara, you said, “It's Andrew calling.” And now you have a new name, so I wanna hear all about this.

Ridghaus: Probably six years ago— Oh, no, it probably would've been ‘08, maybe? It was a little while ago. We'd been three or four years into reunion with both sides of the family. And I was talking with Barbara one day. Somehow I got into my mind, I wonder if she would ever want to adopt me. And at this point, both of my adoptive parents were alive. And so she and I talked about this. And she was overly enthusiastic, like just, you know, “Absolutely.”

And for me, I thought… I began to think of it in terms of, you know, life coming full circle. There's a redemption in the beginning coming back to the ending, you know? And having a new beginning. Almost three years ago, my adoptive father passed, and last fall, my adoptive mother passed.

And I had a weekend after the funeral, where I was just kind of thinking about my own mortality, my kids… And the question that I had asked Barbara eight years before came back to mind: Would she want to adopt me? And so I called her and I said, “Here's what's happened. Would you want to adopt me?” And without hesitation, she said, “Yes.”

And so over the next few months, she and I began to plan out an adoption ceremony, because there are a few states in the U.S. that permit adult adoption. And Washington, where she lives, is one of them. And so we planned a trip where I would be in Washington State for my birthday this year, and we would go to a court and have my adoption by my birth mother finalized. So that's what we did.

And the attorney said, “Do you wanna change your name?” And I said, “Yeah, that's something I've thought about, but I can do it later.” She said, “Well, it's free right now. You know, if it's part of our paperwork, there's no expense.” I'm like, “Oh. Okay.” And so I took part of my birth father's last name (Ridg), and I took a form of my birth mother's last name (Haus), and I blended them together. Because I feel like I'm the start of those two lines.

And so that's where I get my name from now, which is Ridghaus. The name that I was born with had lost meaning (you know, aside from it was a recognizable name that many people knew me by). The significance of the name had been lost for a long, long time, so it was just a name. And so, in forging this new identity (Ridghaus), I felt like I'm able to establish something for my kids, that they're born of this new line. And so I've talked to them, you know, if any of them want to change their name, I'll get the paperwork passed through.

I think all of them are on board. That's the new name. This summer, I was unadopted, you know? Being adopted by my birth mother, I felt like it was an un-adoption. And I took on the names of my birth families: Ridghaus.

Haley Radke: Through this whole story, you just sound so grounded. You know, you talked about these two years of putting your pieces together. And talking about how you are the person you are, in spite of your childhood. And all of these beautiful things that you really were passed genetically—the creativity, and the different love for life, and things that you have gotten from your original parents.

Can you talk a little bit about that? How have you found healing in this? And how do you stay so grounded? You just sound like you're really in touch with all of these feelings and things, whereas, some of us are just like—we just feel like a disaster all the time.

Ridghaus: You know, that's not to say that I don't feel on the verge of disaster at various moments, but I do feel like I've been able to dig my feet down into the ground and find a place where there's stability. You know, and that comes through several things. One, I've got a great tribe around me in the adoptive community. One of the first people that I met who, you know, was open and vocal, is a trauma sensitive yoga practitioner trainer, Cathy Koley. And knowing Cathy, I met Brian Stanton, and Desiree Stephens, and April Dinwoodie, and Aaron Seedy, and Derek Frank, (who became my partner on this film stuff).

So, I have a group of people around me who have absolutely no tolerance for BS. They are happy to call me out when they feel like I'm being anything but true. And we have that rapport with each other. And, you know, we stay in touch. We check in. And so, one of those elements has been that rootedness with just a fantastic tribe.

My kids are amazing. And for all the mistakes that I feel like I made in raising them, they have become just beautiful, kind adults, and the kinds of people that I want to continually have around myself. And again, there is just no— I just don't lie to them, and I don't let them lie to me. (Like we just have a very honest relationship.)

There are times when me and Ben, or me and Barbara haven't seen eye to eye and they'll be like, “Hey,” you know, “What's going on there?” I'm like, you know, “We haven't spoken for a while.” (They kind of made me mad, or I think I stepped on their toes, or whatever.) And we just need a little bit of time to sort that out.

But I'd say one of the other things that helped me get into just a groundedness (and this coincided)... Like I found out that I was adopted at the same time that I got invited to write a book about spiritual formation activities (so things like rest, and meditation, and fasting). And so for that two years that I was rebuilding, I was also going through these spiritual formation exercises. Some didn't fit me, you know, but I would still practice them every three or four months.

Some very much so. And then they really helped to establish a strong relationship with my kids. Like one of the things that we do, is we observe Sabbath Friday night to Saturday night. And then what that means is, we have to make sure that dinner's ready, and we kind of clear everything else off the schedule. It gets harder as they get older, because you know, they've got a job, or they're working on Friday night, or they wanna see a boyfriend or a girlfriend (or whatever).

But for years, we've maintained a Sabbath of... “This is our rest,” you know? And we're just gonna spend time together, and we're gonna appreciate each other. And it's one day of the week where the world does not stop turning. Like it keeps going, even though I'm resting, which tells me while I contribute important things, I don't make the world go around. And so I just get a good sense of: I participate with this other community, but the world keeps spinning. So, exercises like that have been very helpful.

And then finally, just to kind of top it off, I started working with a body therapist, who put me into breathing exercises and got me to talk about some of that trauma that I went through, and just breathe through it. She's been fantastic.

So I'd probably say those four things: my tribe, my kids, the spiritual exercise book that I was a part of, and then having a really good body therapist to work with.

Haley Radke: Those are so helpful. I'd love to shift and talk a little bit about creativity, and how we can find some healing through that as well.

Ridghaus: Yeah.

Haley Radke: And we are gonna talk with you and your partner, Derek, a little bit later about your video project and all of that. So let's leave that, but anything else that you want to discuss about creativity, and ways we can find healing in various mediums? I mean, creativity is kind of broad. What are your thoughts on that?

Ridghaus: Right now, I'm reading a poet. Nayyirah Waheed. She's a woman of color. Poetry comes across very simple. But it's not. It's this deftly created, curated collection of words. And when I read her poetry, it puts me into this meditative space. What do I think about that? And what does that say about the world?

And so I like to write poetry myself, or short stories. But when I read somebody else's words, it gets me away from, What did I grow up with? Or, What did I do? And I get to read their words and kind of sift through them and find out what's true in there (a little bit like the exercise that I did when I first found out that I was adopted),

I wanted to sort out what's true, and then I can take those true words and kind of reassemble them for myself (so they become a way of me expressing the same things). She's giving voice to some of my own experiences and not just Nayyirah, but anybody who's involved in creative expression.

And, you know, some people just don't feel comfortable writing words, but they will create amazing portraiture, or take great photographs or stunning music. Right now, there's a person who's recently come into our circles by the name of Kristen Garaffo. She plays the ukulele. Have you heard Kristen?

Haley Radke: Yeah, I met her at the Indiana Adoptee Network Conference.

Ridghaus: That's right. That's right. She just got a song, she just put a song on Spotify. And I love her voice, like there's this lilt when she's playing her ukulele. And you know, she doesn't have to be talking about adoptee stuff. It's just—she's singing her spirit. And it's just so affirming.

Haley Radke: I love that idea, that creativity can lead us to what's true. Because adoptees, we so struggle with identity. (I mean, late discovery adoptees, for sure.) That's even another level. But all of us in general, Where do we fit? Who are we?

When we're looking at our— If we manage to find our first parents, you know, do we fit with them? It's so much, So finding our individual identity, Who am I? And the thought that creativity could help with that.

Ridghaus: That's expressed so aptly. I just did a quick search for Nayyirah, just to make sure that I could say her last name. (And I don't know that I still said it right). But her Twitter feed popped up, and the last poem that she posted said, “Feel it. The thing that you don't want to feel. Feel it, and be free.”

And I think that encapsulates how I see it. Some of our lives are not very pretty and you know, like you said, we wanna kind of hide that, or we wanna keep it from…whatever.

But I can look back on my life and go, Yeah, that's not pretty. That's icky, you know, it's— Actually, it was actually pretty scary at the time, but I can feel that it was scary and then not be that dad. And be free from what that was.

Haley Radke: Well, I feel like we've had, you know, incredibly profound moments. You're just so wise.

Ridghaus: I have a lot of help.

Haley Radke: So is there anything else you wanna touch on, Ridg, that I didn't get to? I didn't ask you about, you really hoped that I would talk to you about?

Ridghaus: No, I— You know, Haley, I really appreciate what you do here in these podcasts. I love hearing other people's narratives. And I think you do such an exceptional job of giving people space to talk about those things that are important for them and, you know, their journey.

So, as I look back at what we've talked about, I can't think of a thing that we would need to dive into further. You have such a good touch with people, so I'm very grateful for this opportunity to share, and talk, and see what others have to say.

Haley Radke: Oh, thank you. That's so kind. Thank you.

Okay, so we are gonna come back and we're gonna talk to Derek, and we're gonna talk all about Six Word Adoption Memoirs. And we're gonna talk about some recommendations. But let's pause here.

So, how can we get in touch with you online?

Ridghaus: So, it is easiest for people to get in touch with us through our Facebook page, the Six Word Adoption Memoir Project. It's facebook.com/6WAMproject/.

Haley Radke: Great. Thank you so much. It was so fun talking to you.

Ridghaus: Aww. Thank you, Haley.

Haley Radke: I have so much more to say, more to tell you, but I'm sure you're saying, “Wait a minute, Haley, where's the recommended resources? When are you gonna talk about Ridg and Derek's videos?”

Listen, I promise I did not forget these things. This is Part One of a two-part premiere, and next week (Friday), you will hear Derek's story. And then Ridg, and Derek, and I break down the Six Word Adoption Memoir Project, including some behind the scenes moments (one of which involves a mattress). So you just have to listen. So funny. And we do our recommended resource section there.

I have a group of over 20 supporters that contribute monthly to help cover the costs of producing this podcast. Thank you. I could not keep the show going without your support, so thank you so, so much. If you would like to stand with me and ensure adoptee voices are shared worldwide, head over to adopteeson.com/partner. There's a link right in the show notes of the app that you're listening on that you can click through on. You can check out the options for support.

I even have a secret adoptees-only Facebook group for supporters and guests of the show as a thank you for your generosity. It's this incredibly intimate and supportive place that has been a real encouragement to me, especially in these last few months.

Speaking of adoptees, I have two clips to share with you that were submitted through adopteeson.com. Let's have a listen.

Abby Forero Hilty: Hi, my name's Abby Forero Hilty. I was born in Bogotà, Colombia, and adopted at the age of two months. I grew up in a suburb of New York City. Thanks to Facebook and other social media sites, I've been able to connect with adoptees from around the world. Recently, 16 other Colombian adoptees and I co-wrote the first Colombian adoptee anthology.

The book is called Decoding Our Origins: The Lived Experiences of Colombian Adoptees, and I edited and published it in early 2017. In each chapter, a different author shares her or his experience as a transracial intercountry Colombian adoptee, using various means of expression in the U.S., Decoding Our Origins is available for purchase online at thecreatespace.com shop, or via Amazon.com. Outside of the U.S., please use your country's local Amazon site.

All profits from sales of the book are being used to purchase DNA kits for first mothers in Colombia, and Colombian adoptees who are searching for their family. Thank you.

Stephanie Harris: My name is Stephanie Harris and I live in Louisville, Kentucky. I was relinquished as a newborn in 1969, closed adoption, and have been in full circle reunion with both first families.

My dear friend (and also fellow adoptee), Lynn Grubb, became the editor of our book, The Adoptee Survival Guide. This is an anthology collection of 30 absolutely amazing adoptees. We share the wisdom and tools, and we give insight on the life of an adoptee. It was published in 2015.

You can find the book The Adoptee Survival Guide on Amazon, or you can go to www.theadopteesurvivalguide.com. If you'd like to connect with us on Facebook, we also have a page: Adoptee Survival Guide.

Haley Radke: Thank you for submitting those, ladies. If you're an adoptee with a book you'd like to share with us, head over to adopteeson.com/connect, and you can send audio feedback to me (just like Abby and Stephanie did). I love to hear your voices and I'm happy to promote your work on my show. For free. There's no charge or anything.

Come find me on social media, tell me about your projects, and how you're finding healing. I really wanna connect with you, so links to my Twitter, Facebook page, Instagram—they're all on adopteeson.com.

The very last thing for today. (Oh, so much. I know.) Would you tell just one person today about this podcast? Perhaps you know an adoptee who also relinquished a child. It's actually super common for us to repeat these patterns. Maybe they'd be encouraged to hear Ridg's story of connecting with his first son, and some of the healing conversations they've had.

Thank you for listening. Let's talk again, next Friday.

Oh, I said that was the last thing, but I totally lied, because I have one more thing to tell you. Aah, so much stuff. This is what happens when I'm gone for a few weeks, right?

I was invited to come down to the Concerned United Birthparents’ Retreat, which is happening in California on the first weekend of October. So if you are headed down to that retreat, please come find me on socials. Adopteeson.com has all of our links there. And let me know you're coming, because I wanna meet you in person. I wanna give you a big hug.

I really love connecting with listeners in real life. It's one of my absolute favorite things, and if you want, we can do a quick little interview. I can record your thoughts about adoption and about the retreat. I'd love to do that with you. So let me know you're coming. I wanna see you, and am excited to meet you in real life.

38 [Healing Series] Finding Allies

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/38


Haley Radke: You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. I'm your host, Haley Radke, and this is a special episode in our Healing Series, where I interview therapists who are also adoptees themselves, so they know from personal experience what it feels like to be an adoptee. Today we answer a listener question sent in from Kate. Let's listen in.

Lesli Johnson is a fellow adoptee and licensed therapist who works to help other adoptees connect the dots of their story and live authentically. Welcome back, Lesli.

Lesli Johnson: Thanks, Haley. Great to be here.

Haley Radke: I'm so happy to chat with you again today, and I actually have a question from a listener, so I'm going to read that to you.

“I have a suggestion for an episode topic: talking to significant others or friends about your feelings about being adopted. I'm not married, but I'm in a serious relationship. My partner is not adopted and doesn't have any experience with adoption. He's very supportive of me and genuinely listens to me when I need to vent about adoption stuff, but even still, I often wind up feeling like I have to justify my feelings in our conversations. Not because he's being antagonistic, but just because he's coming from a different perspective, and I think it's hard to put yourself in an adoptee's perspective if you've never lived it. I guess my question is: what are some strategies for having real conversations about adoption with people in your life that don't have experience with adoption? Obviously, it's always best if you can talk to a therapist, but ideally you should be able to talk to your partner or close friends when something agitates you and you want to talk about it. Any advice for how to teach a non-adopted partner or friend to be an ally?”

So, can you answer us, but also maybe talk to our partners a bit?

Lesli Johnson: That's a great question, and I think as adoptees– all people want to be seen and validated,I think sometimes for adopted people, we want it even a little bit more, our experience to be understood and seen. I think there are few ways that we can get the important people in our life– depending on who they are, but it sounds like this person's partner has a willingness to be there for her and understand. So maybe sharing beyond just educating about her own experience or her own feelings. Maybe this person would want to be included in listening to your podcast. “Let's listen to this together and have a conversation about it afterward.”

Or maybe this person's friends or partner, or any adoptive person's friends or partner, would be open to reading some of the must-read books for adoptees and having a conversation about it to better understand.

And I think, at the end of the day, no one really– it would be like me trying to understand what it feels like to be a man and fully understanding that, or my partner trying to understand, you know, fully embracing and understanding the experience of being a woman, or me as a white woman fully understanding what it's like to be an African-American male, or vice versa.

So I guess that's a long way of saying that there's no way for a person to fully understand the experience of being adopted unless they themselves were adopted, but that through education and support we can help our allies better understand us and our experience and how it shaped us. What do you think? How would you answer that question? I'm curious.

Haley Radke: Well, when you're talking about that, I'm thinking, ‘You know, it's taken my husband a long time to understand why I am the way I am.’ And now that he has listened to the podcast –he's not listened to all the episodes, he's always like at least a month or two behind. So, you know, who knows when he'll hear this? Hi, Nick!-- I guess he's understanding more and more, but it just takes a long time, Lesli. I really think it takes a long time, and you're right. Like he's never fully going to get it. He just isn't. If you're not adopted, you don't understand what it's like to not know your heritage, to not know who your parents are. He's never going to understand that. It's just impossible.

Lesli Johnson: Yeah. I just recently got back from a vacation with my partner's family. He has two brothers, and just seeing everyone in a room with their parents, and then some of their children, and all the genetic similarities, not only in the physicalities, but also the mannerisms. It didn't make me sad, it just kind-of was another time when I thought, ‘Wow, I don't have that.’ I mean, I do know some of my biological relatives, and I do see similarities, but not in the context of, you know, a big room over a family meal.

And I think, like you said, it takes a while and we have to be patient. I think we have to be patient and empathic just as we're wanting that same patience and empathy, you know?

Haley Radke: Definitely. So you're describing that situation and I'm thinking, ‘Yeah, it was just like that for me at a family event a few weeks ago.’ And then later, I can go to Nick and say, “You know, I felt kind of triggered because your dad was talking about how much so-and-so resembles so-and-so, and all these similarities, and every time I hear that, I think, ‘I have a loss there.’” And so when I tell Nick more and more of those examples, his ears get attuned to that as well.

Lesli Johnson: Yeah, and I think it's what our triggers are, and being able to share those vulnerable parts with the people that we care about, in hopes that sharing those things, our partners, our friends, will respect that and be very mindful. For me it's separations and transitions. And I've worked really hard to not be so vulnerable there, but I want some people in my life to know that separations and transitions are really, really difficult for me sometimes. So I want someone to be empathic to that, just as I would when they share with me their vulnerabilities.

Haley Radke: Well, that's such a great tip. If we know those specific things that are really difficult for us, sharing that with your partner and just kind of explaining, you know, you can say, “Separations are really hard for me because my story started with rejection.”

Lesli Johnson: Or with a separation!

Haley Radke: Yeah, exactly. Right. Yeah, that's a great idea.

Lesli Johnson: It requires us to have done our work though, to be able to articulate that, what our triggers– right?

Haley Radke: Absolutely, yeah. Are you saying I have more work to do?

Lesli Johnson: No, it's a process and I think the process is ongoing, and that's a good thing.

Haley Radke: So what are, like, the top three books we could get a partner to read if they were super interested?

Lesli Johnson: I mean, one of my top ones now –I certainly have many of the books on adoption– but I think a great one would be Anne Heffron's book You Don't Look Adopted. I think that's a great one. There's parts of it that are funny, there are parts of it that are sad, but at the end of the book, you do have an essence of– of course it's her story, but I know you've read it, and I've read it, and I know other people that have read it, and we all take little bits and say, “Oh, yeah, right. I felt this way.” You know, there are other books. I think The Primal Wound is a great one. I think it's maybe not the first one I would recommend for someone who wasn't adopted, but certainly great information.

Haley Radke: Well, even if you as an adoptee are reading through that, you can say, “Can you just read this chapter, or these couple pages? Because this is my experience.” Because yeah, I agree, “Can you read this huge book and it's kind of dry?...”

Lesli Johnson: Yeah! Or watching movies that have an adoption theme and having a conversation about it afterward. Again, listening to episodes of your podcast or parts of your podcast that really resonate with the adoptive person and then being able to say, “Will you listen to this with me? I'd really love for you to hear this perspective because I really agree with it,” or, “I really felt that way when I was younger.” Or, “These are some of the fears I have.” Whatever material is relevant.

Haley Radke: Thank you so much, Lesli. That was really helpful. How can we connect with you online?

Lesli Johnson: You can connect with me through my website, www.yourmindfulbrain.com, and that has all my information.

Haley Radke: Great. Thank you so much for your help today. Thank you.

Lesli Johnson: Thank you, thank you. I always enjoy being here.

Haley Radke: This episode was brought to you by my phenomenal Patreon supporters. If you're looking for a place to find further adoptee support, I have a secret Facebook group for adoptees that is only available to my Patreon supporters. I take monthly pledges to help sustain my work in producing episodes just like this one for you. Visit Adopteeson.com/partner to find out all the details.

Today, maybe you consider sharing this episode with the person you'd like to have be your adoptee ally. Listen to it together, and then share with them about how they can best support you. Thank you for listening. Let's talk again next Friday for the season finale of Adoptees On with Jessenia Parmer of I Am Adopted.

37 Liz - Speaking Out

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/37


Haley Radke: You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. This is Season 2, Episode 12: Liz. I'm your host, Haley Radke. Today I feel tremendously honored to introduce you to Liz Latty. Liz shares her story, we talk a lot about our dads, and we dive deep into adoptee activism.

I usually do this at the end of the show, but I'm going to ask you a big favor upfront today. As you're listening, if you feel moved, if you are hearing some of the things Liz is sharing and think, ‘Oh my gosh, I know exactly who needs to hear this today,’ please share this episode with them. I know it will bring encouragement to many of you to know you aren't alone on this journey.

Liz and I wrap up the episode with some recommended resources, and as always, links to all the things we're talking about are on the website, AdopteesOn.com. Stick around to the end because I'll be letting you know details about the season finale of Adoptees On. Let's listen in.

I'm so pleased to introduce to Adoptees On, Liz Latty. Welcome, Liz.

Liz Latty: Hi, Haley. Thanks for having me.

Haley Radke: I'm so excited to tell you that– I'm so excited. Oh my gosh. See, I'm sorry, I'm already starting to fangirl. I promise I'm not going to do that. You've written some very, very powerful pieces and I feel like you are really getting our voice out there. So thank you so much for your work for us.

*Liz Latty: Thank you.

Haley Radke: I'd love it if you would start off by just sharing your story with us.

Liz Latty: I was born in Michigan, in suburban Detroit, in the late 70s, and was adopted through Catholic Social Services at about two months old. I was in a foster home for about two months. Was raised about 10 miles from where I was born. I was raised with an adopted sibling, you know, we had no biological tie. And we had really different experiences of adoption, I think. I was sort-of always really deeply grieving from a really young age, and always knew that I would search for my family. You know, it was a closed adoption and so didn't really have much information. I started searching when I was about 18. It was a really very difficult, tumultuous time for me. I was raised by an extremely Catholic family, and I came out of the closet when I was 17, 18 years old. It was not a pretty scene. And so I was actually fairly disconnected from my adoptive family because of that, and was sort of really reeling from that rejection around my sexuality. So of course it seemed like the best time to search for my original family!

Haley Radke: Of course! Why wouldn’t you want to just bring all the feelings in?

Liz Latty: Yeah, of course, it's fine! It's great. So yeah, so I started searching when I was 18, but I was also sort-of living in a very transient state. And it was also before a lot of technology was available, too. e're talking about like the late 90’s. And because I was sort-of in and out of homelessness and transience, I didn't really have access to computers or internet or money or anything. And it took me quite a while to find my original family. I actually ended up finding a, you know, what folks like to call Search Angels. Though at the time I hated that they were called Search Angels, because I was on the heels of being rejected from a very religious family and community. The prevalence of religion in adoption was very difficult for me to deal with. You know, I was really angry at that part of my life. So I sort of resisted working with a Search Angel for a while, simply because they were called Search Angels. I was like, ‘I don't want any angels.’

But I did end up working with someone who was able to find my family within about three weeks. It was pretty quick. And then met my original mother and her family, and then found my father some time after that. Though that was really difficult as well. Yeah, I actually got my father's contact information, but found out that he was born-again evangelical before I contacted him. And I had already been rejected by a religious family for being queer, and so I was terrified at the possibility of that happening again. And so I didn't contact him for quite a while, almost a year after I had his information. But I finally did.

So I was in reunion with my mother for about two and a half years, and then that sort-of fell apart, for reasons that I guess I'm still trying to figure out 15 years later. But I am still in relationship with my father to this day, and I also have nine half-siblings.

Haley Radke: Whoa.

Liz Latty: Through him. Yes. And I have relationships with them, and with their mother, to varying degrees as well. So that's been a really amazing part of my reunion. And my adoptive family and I have worked long and hard to sort-of repair our relationships and build relationships together as adults and, you know, figuring out how to accept one another. Yeah, so that's my story.

Haley Radke: Well, we often don't talk about reunion with our fathers, so would you mind going into that a little bit? You said you were kind-of afraid to contact him, and you waited about a year. Do you wanna expound on that?

Liz Latty: Yeah. Well, it was really just because of the religion thing. And it was like the intersection of religion and queerness, which is just really volatile, often, right? As we know, right? I mean, I'm not saying across the board. Lots of religious folks are perfectly open and loving to various sexualities and gender presentations and all of these things. But, you know, historically speaking –and certainly my personal experience– had been really difficult. So I was really scared. And I think, too, though, that something about it being my dad made it a little bit less urgent. Which is strange, you know, but I think it makes sense, right?

Like, when I found my mother, and the first conversation I ever had with her on the phone, she told me his name and she told me their breakup. They had stayed together for two years after I was born. They were very much in love, teenagers, you know, at the tail end of high school, and had stayed together and had gone through this really painful trauma of losing me. Because it was not what they wanted, they were forced into it. And then had a really painful breakup. And she was like, “Here's his name. I don't ever want to talk about him again.” And we didn't. We never did. I was like, ‘Alright, cool.’ And as soon as I had his name, I was like, ‘Huh. That's so weird. I kind-of have not really ever thought about him.’ Like, I had, but not really. It was sort-of always about the mother. It was always about the mom for me. It opened a new window, you know, it opened a new window that I hadn't thought about and that I was really interested in, but it just didn't have the same urgency as it did with my mom.

And so I think that both the fear of being rejected for my sexuality yet again, and because also I think that often in religious communities, rejection of queerness is really violent. So it's a real fear, you know. I had been– they thought I was mentally ill, and were joining, you know, groups that were trying to “pray people straight”. And it was the height of the ex-gay movement in the mid-to-late 90’s. And they really thought they could cure me. They also thought it was like a symptom of attachment disorder and sort-of pathologized it around being adopted. That was pretty emotionally violent. I was just like, ‘I'm not doing that again. I'm not going through that again with another family.’

I had like his name and address and phone number on a little piece of paper, and I just folded it up and put it in a shoebox and put it under my bed for quite a long time. And then one day I just was like, ‘You know, if I don't do this, I'm gonna regret it.’ And I just pulled it out and I called him. And he said that he always knew that I would find him, that if I had any of him in me, that he knew that I would find him and that he was just waiting. And then we talked on the phone for an hour and it was really easy. He's super chatty and, you know, we're both really chatty and crack lots of jokes. He actually does comedy, and he is an actor and a musician, and it was just really easy. Again, I also sometimes think, ‘Well, is that…?’ you know, it was never easy with my mom. It was never easy. It was always a struggle.

But then, you know, it's been 15 years and certainly there's been difficult times. We've lost touch for years at a time, and then reconnected, and it's not been without its challenges. But the initial reunion, we lived in the same place at the time, and so he just immediately wanted to come over. He came over and I made my girlfriend at the time –who, we lived together– hide at the neighbors.

Haley Radke: Oh my gosh.

Liz Latty: I know. Which I still feel guilty about. We're friends to this day, so she's forgiven me for all the trauma. And she understood at the time, too. She is a really loving person and very compassionate and empathetic. So she understood, you know, that I was just terrified. That it was real, you know. That I had been rejected already and that that fear was really real. And so she hid at the freaking neighbor's house while my dad came to meet me for the first time.

But then I went out to his house, which is about 20, 25 minutes from where I was living in Detroit, and met his kids and his wife. And she immediately just sort of claimed me as one of her own, you know, still does. They only had seven kids, actually, at the time, but two more –twins, my youngest brothers are twins– they came just a little while later after that, and his wife actually asked me to be the other person in the delivery room. So I was there for their birth with my dad. And my dad was actually the last person to hold me in the hospital before they took me away, when he was 16, 17. So that was a pretty powerful, pretty intense time.

So yeah, it's been 15 years of an ongoing rollercoaster. And I'm constantly surprised at how new things come up all the time. Like, I'm still finding things out that I didn't know before, or getting conflicting stories about things I thought I knew before. And I'm still finding myself with new questions all the time. I mean, my dad and I had actually lost track of each other– well, not lost track of each other. We knew where each other was, but we hadn't talked for about seven years, until last summer. And we saw each other last summer and sort-of started a correspondence again just this past year. So it's a new level, you know. It's just always new. Which I just think about and write about a lot, this idea, this experience of being on the other side of reunion long-term, and what that means. What it means to build relationships with people who, in the beginning all you share is this shared history of trauma, but otherwise you're sort-of strangers. And what that means over time, and how that grows, and ebbs and flows and stuff.

Haley Radke: Well, I found it interesting, Liz, when you said that your father said, “I kind-of knew you would find me and I was just waiting for you.” Do you think he ever would've searched for you? This is something I've asked my dad probably 3 or 4 times, and I think his answer is no, but he can't say it to me.

Liz Latty: I don't know. That's a great question. He might listen to this–

Haley Radke: My dad listens every week, so I'm like, ‘Is this going to make the final cut? I don’t know.’

Liz Latty: Yeah! I don't know about formally, I know that informally, he was constantly searching for me. Always. He told me, in fact recently, just this past year, he went much more into detail about our story from his perspective than he had previously.

And whew, it was really hard to hear, and I'm sure it was really hard for him to say. Just how deeply he was affected by this, which I think is another thing that we just don't think about with first fathers a lot too, right? That losing a child can really derail their lives, too, you know, even though they didn’t physically– weren't the birthing parent.

Haley Radke: When you were telling your story and you're talking about how we think of the mother first and you're like, “Oh, I didn't even think of ‘Do want I search for him?’” I think that's so common. I think because we have this picture of our mother and we're inside of her for nine months, it's easy to picture that connection. And the father is, you know, it's a one-time contact. Oh my goodness, how do I say that, right?

Liz Latty: I think that too, we're often –and I think I'm gonna say the word political, and I think it is– because of the sort-of political context of the narrative of adoption, right? Like, what we're told, what people think about birth families, right? That they're “unfit” in some way. I think often the idea is that the father isn't around. And that might be true in some cases, but there was never a picture of him in the narrative that I was given. But he was very much there. He was very much there, but that picture wasn't given. It's not that it was like, it was given and my parents hid that from me. That's not the narrative that they gave me. Like, that wasn't given to my adoptive parents, you know what I mean? A lot of the narrative in my adoption file is just false. It's just absolutely false about what was going on, and I think that may have had something to do with the religious nature of the agency, like, the stigma around– I don’t know. I mean, my father was cataloged as the father and it was like, ‘These are his siblings, these are his parents. Everybody's supportive. Everybody's on board.’ So it wasn't like he was absent, but there was no, I don't know– They were a long-term, committed, very much in love couple, and he was very much there. And she was in fact sent away while she was pregnant, and he drove up hours every weekend and snuck into the maternity home to visit her. And they stayed together for years, they moved across the country together after he graduated from high school, because she was a year ahead of him, so she was already out. And it really affected him. It affected them, it affected her, it affected their relationship. It affected everything. You know, a child just doesn't go missing with no consequences.

So he really talked about how painful that was and about how much shame was involved. And in fact, he left the state and didn't come back for over two decades because he felt that he had shamed everyone. And then when he finally came back, he just sort of imagined that I was in Michigan still, and anytime he would see a teenage girl or a young woman –I would've been around 18 or so at the time– he would just freak out every time, and have a panic attack, and start following her, and then it was like, ‘Oh my God, I'm gonna get arrested for following young women!’ It really affected his life, and he carried that wound too, you know? And I think that hearing that part of his story, while it was really hard of course. It's hard to hear that. It's hard to hear his pain, but it's also really validating. Because as someone who talks about adoption a lot, sort-of obsessively, and writes about it publicly, of course, we always get this pushback. The narrative that it's, you know, the narrative we all know, right? And what I'm always sort of harping on is there are consequences to this, and families are not interchangeable, and people then live with a lifetime of grief and trauma to varying degrees, and it affects everybody. It doesn't just affect the person who gave birth and the child. My mom's sisters were like, “You know, her father was the one that forced her,” to give me up, and they were furious at her father for years and held it over his head, you know? It reverberates. It moves through multiple generations and multiple family systems, this wound. To hear him say that and talk about how it had affected him for so many years and still does, was just sort of really validating in that way of ‘Yeah, I've been saying this!’, you know? Because I knew it was true. I knew it was true. I've seen it in other people and in myself, and in the way that my reunion unraveled with my mom. Sometimes the pain is just too big that we aren't able to find a way to connect with each other across it. And that's really unfortunate, but it affects so many people. It affects so many people.

Haley Radke: Well, I'm just in conversation with this beautiful woman who is a grandmother of loss. And when she tells me parts of her story, she is just heartbroken because she is the mother that convinced her daughter, “This is the right choice.” And this story is just a few years old that the child that's been lost to adoption. It does, it reverberates. That’s such a good word to describe it. It affects all the generations and further down as well. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Preaching to the choir. Of course. This is what I get to.

Liz, can we just go back to when you were first meeting your dad and stuff, and you're hiding your girlfriend?

Liz Latty: Yeah! I still feel guilty.

Haley Radke: I mean, I don't know. At least she had a different house to go to. She wasn't, like, under the bed or something.

Liz Latty: Yeah, well, it was just the apartment next door. We were living in really crappy student apartments.

Haley Radke: She had like a glass up against the wall–

Liz Latty: Yeah! Look, the closet is a very complicated place–

Haley Radke: I said hide under the bed, that’s what I– [both Liz and Haley break off in laughter]

Are you comfortable just talking about when you told him that you were queer, how that went? Because you were so scared of that part of your story.

Liz Latty: Well, I can tell you, it's interesting that you asked, because I actually just told him in October.

Haley Radke: Okay. Did he know?

Liz Latty: Yeah, he pretty much figured it out. Which I was very angry at, because I'd gone to great lengths to stay strategically closeted from him! Apparently not good enough. I blame Facebook's privacy preferences and my inability to apparently set them properly. Yeah, I just told them. It was kind of crazy. I stayed closeted from him, like, 14 years. Because I was so afraid. And then once my brothers and sisters were sort-of in the picture for me, and with their mom as well too, right? I was afraid that, you know, I knew it could go either way. Maybe they would be totally fine with it, but if they weren't, what if they didn't let me see my brother and sisters? That kind-of felt like my main motivation after the initial reunion. I was like, ‘I don't wanna get cut off from that.’

And then I came out to my older siblings as they sort of moved out of the house and I had relationships with them. Some of them are now in their early twenties, and so as they moved out of the house and would come visit me, or I'd visit them, I wasn't going to hide my life. If they were going to come visit me and I had a partner– I just wasn't gonna do it. And they were super cool. They're millennials. They don't care. Like, they are also very religious and all of the things, but they're also very much of their generation, and have queer friends, and aren't necessarily bound by what a church, or a clergy member or something, really says. So they were really beautiful and accepting and said, “We literally don't care. We love you. We think you're cool. We don't care.”

But, you know, I had asked my oldest brother, “What do you think that your dad would say?” And he was like, “Yeah, it could go either way. I really don't know.” That was quite a few years ago. And so I was like, ‘Eh, all right.’ We also didn't live in the same place by that point either, so it I didn't see him often or whatever, so it was just like, ‘There's just not really a reason to.’ But I really struggled with it personally, because I'm very involved in queer community, and I write about queer issues, and I consider myself an activist around queer issues. And I understand that the closet is a very complicated place for people, for lots of reasons. Not everybody can be out, depending on where they live, depending on what family they're in. It's not necessarily safe. But I still felt guilty, you know? I was like, ‘Wow. I am this totally out, super queer person, and I'm closeted to over half my family.’ And that felt really hard for me to live that way. So my father and I didn't talk for quite a few years, and then when we reconnected last summer, I was like, ‘I gotta tell him this time. I'm almost 40, first of all, I'm, like, too old to be hiding girlfriends and just, what, like bringing decoys to family events or whatever, you know? Like, come on.’ I'm just like, ‘I can't.’ I said, “You know what, look, we haven't talked to each other in quite a few years, if we're gonna reconnect I want it to actually be authentic this time, and I don't want to have to hide part of my life.”

A lot of people will often say “Well, why do you need to tell everybody?” But most of my friends are queer and trans. I date other queer people who are, like, very physically queer. It's like, you actually have to jump through a lot of hoops. It's not just about like broadcasting your sexuality, right? It's like, I actually have to hide a good portion of my life. And so it felt really important to me to connect with him on a really open, honest, authentic level this time. I was like, ‘What's the worst that can happen? He can not talk to me again? Well, we didn't just talk for the last, like, X amount of years and I survived. I need to know, and I need to actually know now because if we reconnect and start building a relationship again, and then it comes up in a year or two and I'm attached and then it is a problem and it is a deal breaker, that will really suck, you know? So I'd rather know now.’

I wrote him a very long email. And it was actually on National Coming Out Day in October, which is really weird because I'm not like an anniversary– I don't know, it normally didn't feel like something I would do on a specific day. But I just got sort-of emotional seeing other people's really sweet coming out stories posted on Facebook that day and I was like, ‘I'm gonna do it.’ And so I stayed up till 4 in the morning and I wrote him this very long email. Because I wanted him to know how painful my coming out experience had been as a young person, and how much that affected my life. I was pretty homeless and family-less for many years. I mean, I had my own family, like, chosen family and other queer folks.

And that secondary rejection on top of being adopted, it was like, ‘Wow, okay. Nobody wants me.’ You know? And I wanted him to know that. And I wanted him to know that it was also fueled pretty much solely by religion. And also how painful it had been for me to feel like I had to make the choice to hide from him, too. I told him everything. And I also told him that if he thought I was mentally ill, or gonna burn in hell, or could be rehabilitated or whatever, that I wasn't interested in hearing it, he could just let me know that it wasn't cool with him. But I was like, “I've heard every scripture, I've heard every rationalization around– whatever. I've heard it all. I'm not interested. I came out when I was a teenager and I'm almost 40. I'm cool. I love who I am. But I just need to know what your deal is and I need to know that I can be myself around you, and that I can bring people I love around you.”

I sent it to him and I was super terrified. Like, sweating and sick to my stomach, couldn't sleep, and couldn't concentrate at work the next day. And then around 3 in the afternoon, I got an email back from him. In the email I sent to him, I told him, “Well it's National Coming Out Day, so I have a little something to tell you.” And he sent an email back around 3 in the afternoon and he had edited the subject line, and it was all-caps and it said, “IT'S NATIONAL LOVE YOUR QUEER DAUGHTER DAY” with, like, 18 exclamation points. And then he just said all the things that everyone should have said to me when I came out. He recognized how painful it was for me, and he said that he was really sorry that I had had to carry that burden; that there was no Bible, no scriptures coming, no prayer circles; that he is really proud to be my dad no matter what. And then he took it as an opportunity to tell me he was voting for Trump. So it was a little weird!

Haley Radke: Oh my God.

Liz Latty: Okay, he is a comedian. He was like, “So you're queer. So I'm voting for Trump! Who cares?” So, I don't know–

Haley Radke: I'm sorry, I'm, like, bawling over here, and you can probably hear my Kleenex, and now you're– Okay.

Liz Latty: Yes! So, that's the kind relationship we have at this point. Complicated, right? But also really beautiful and it really felt like a gift, you know?

Haley Radke: Thank you. Thanks for sharing that. I am just, yeah, getting myself together. I cry every episode, what's new? Okay. I would love to touch on with you some– just a conversation about activism in adoption. You've wrote some extremely powerful pieces that have been, of course, well received by adoptees like myself, who have been trying to say this, like, “Will you listen to us? When are you gonna listen to us? That there's a trauma attached here!” Can you just talk a little bit about your work in this space, things that have been effective, like, what do people actually listen to? And what kind of responses you've gotten, so for example, to the fairy tale narrative piece.

Liz Latty: Yeah. I mean, overwhelmingly the responses have been really positive and folks have reached out to really thank me for helping them think about it in a different way. And I mean folks who are attached to it in some way, and also people who aren't, which is great. And then you get some trolls that want to tell you about how mentally ill you are and what a disaster you must be– you know, whatever. That has everything to do with where they're at and nothing to do with where I'm at.

So, in terms of activism, it's a scary place to be. It's a really scary place to be. I've been writing about adoption for a really long time. Pretty much since I was five. And I'm a creative writer. You know, I went to school for creative writing and have mostly existed and written and published in literary spaces more often than not, until really recently. I mean, The Rumpus, where What We Lost was published, is a literary space. It was certainly a personal essay, but it also had a lot of kind-of political and historical content in it as well. And then the last one that I did for The Establishment was much more straightforward.

Haley Radke: And that one is Adoption Is A Feminist Issue, But Not For The Reasons You Think. Also excellent. I'll put a link to both of those in the show notes.

Liz Latty: Thank you. Yeah, and I've sort-of been tiptoeing out a little bit more in terms of being overtly political around adoption. I've always been an activist, and I was sort-of nurtured and raised in queer and feminist activist spaces, and then kind-of brought those politics to bear on my experience of being an adopted person. And understanding this experience and the institution of adoption through those lenses, it's compelled me to talk about it more in a more straightforward political way. And I've learned from so many adoptee activists around me that have come before me, and that are considered friends and peers and colleagues now, and have been doing scholarship and activism around adoption for so long.

But it's a really scary place to be, to sort-of step out and talk about the political content of adoption and not just about your own story, because I think that you open yourself up to more criticism. And the argument becomes much more complicated, and requires a lot more precision and accuracy and research and all of those things. But I'm enjoying being in those spaces, and I think that one of the things that it helps me do and the reason why I guess I like to talk about adoption activism with other adoptees more and more, and as much as possible is that, you know, I feel really passionate about actually creating larger systemic change in adoption– or rather outside of adoption. Because I think that adoption is really just a symptom and a failed solution to larger systemic oppressions, and mostly shouldn't ever actually have to happen.

But I think that moving into the political content of it has really helped me in terms of understanding my own story better. And that's one of the things that I feel like I like to offer to adopted people, too, is that, between therapy and being a writer, writing about my own story of adoption, I was sort-of processing it through language and through personal narrative for a really long time. I could only get so far. And then when I started really doing more research and investigation and trying to understand the history of adoption and how it came to be the practice and institution it is now, and the way that it affects different groups of people differently and just all of this, all of the political content of it, it really took me to the next level of understanding my own story and being able to actually tap into a much deeper well of understanding and compassion for everyone that was involved in my adoption. I could have stayed really angry at my first mother for our reunion unraveling for a really long time. But getting more information about what she went through, and then sort-of understanding her not as one woman who made a choice or didn't make a choice, in a vacuum, right? Because that's just not how it happens. But situating her within the historical and political context in which she did and did not have choices, really helped to sort-of– It just helped me tap into compassion more and it helped me get to a next place in my own healing. And then of course, I think, as always, ‘Right, what happens when people make a life around trying to create change within a system or a life experience that they have survived, right?’ Which often happens. That's often how people come to a particular kind of activism or work, right? It's like, you went through this thing and it really changed you or, you know, partially defines who you are in some way, or whatever. And then you figure out how to make that into work, or make that into a life's work of some kind, and engage with other people and connect with other people, and work towards something that hopefully means that other people don't necessarily have to go through what you went through, right? I think too, that then that also helps healing. Because I think being adopted, specifically, can be such an isolating experience and such an isolating identity, and becoming involved in activism and in community helps. It puts some salve on that wound a bit, and it makes you feel– or it makes me feel, at least, it makes me feel active and purposeful and just clear-eyed, you know?

Which is not to say I don't sometimes slip back into feeling victim-y, because I do. And I think that's normal and just human and whatever. But I also have a much larger and broader context and understanding for what happened, that I'm able to pull myself out of that thinking pretty easily if I do have a bad day and slip into that or whatever. And I also have folks that I can reach out to that have also had this experience, and can connect with them. So I think that is really important. And I meet a lot of adoptees who are like, “Yeah, I can't go there. I can't– I'm not interested in the political arena of it. This is just my story. It's just about my family.” And then there's tons and tons of us who are invested in activism, and everybody's got their own journey, right? But I do think that it's important, and I think that there needs to be a lot of change, but I do wonder about how we're going to make those changes. I think there is such a broad range of understanding because there's such a broad range of experience in adoption and how people experience it, and then also how people come to it, that there's a lot of divide within the adoption community about what activism looks like, or what changes need to be made, or what reform looks like, or what abolishing the system altogether looks like, or whatever. Right? There's just a range of activisms. And that's okay, but we're sort-of small in numbers and we need each other. Change happens through numbers often, right? It really requires movement-building. And I think that I often see a lot of divide within the adoption community. And I guess I think about that a lot, and I wonder how we can better forge alliances with each other, and then also looking outward, align ourselves with larger movements that might not know that we’re part of what they're working for. You know, like, movements for economic justice and reproductive justice and racial justice. All of these things are the underlying oppressions that then, you know, adoption is sort-of this “solution” –I know it's not a solution, but, like, whatever– for.

Haley Radke: Right, and I think you said it before, it's a symptom of.

Liz Latty: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It's a symptom of these things, right? And so I just wonder how does adoption community align itself with each other, and then also move outward and align ourselves with larger movements? Because we have to. I think we have to. We have to get bigger and stronger and louder. Yeah, I think about that a lot. But I don't really have any particular one answer about that yet. But I think that there needs to be a lot of growth in that area.

Haley Radke: I really appreciate your wisdom on that, Liz, and thank you for those comments.

Something that I touched on with an adoptee, her name's Erica Curry Van Ee, and what she said to me that I had never thought about before, was that adoptees are an invisible minority group. And she was talking about it in the context of, you know, receiving our original birth certificates and how this is a human right, et cetera. Which of course most of us have heard that before, but that was so interesting for me to think about. Because we have been maligned in some way, but yet it's also hard to speak about that, because you don't want to ever say “less than” to another group that has, you know, felt like they've been marginalized. I don't know. It's a sticky balance for me, but I really have been thinking about it a lot since she said it to me.

Liz Latty: Yeah, it's true. I think that's true. I think it is. Largely because we're just, like, displaced and dispersed all over the place, right? We have this narrative in this country that sort-of erases our experience as a trauma, as a symptom of oppression, right? It's just the redemption narrative that folks focus on. And because our pain, because our displacement, because our loss of culture and language and all of the things that adopted folks experience is largely erased underneath that narrative, I think it's true. I think we are invisible to some degree. Though I totally agree with you, in terms of, I think language is really important, right? Language is super powerful and it makes me think about I actually just on Facebook earlier, yesterday or something, I saw this posting about original birth certificates. I think it was for New York or something, I think there's a bill right now that's sort-of passed and it's not clean or whatever. So someone was posting about it and the slogan on the thing said, “Adoptee is the last minority to be denied their civil rights.”

And I just thought to myself, ‘My God, like, when are we gonna stop saying things like this?’ Because it's first of all, just so factually incorrect. And it's offensive and alienating to so many people and groups of people who are denied their civil rights in this country every day. And a lot of adopted people also belong to those groups. So it's not only alienating to folks who are not adopted, it's alienating to folks who are adopted and live at the intersection of, you know, being an adopted trans person, being an adopted person of color, being like– Come on. You know, it's just, it's like, that kind of language is really troubling to me and I just– I don't know. I think that it further deepens this gulf too, within the community, as well, right? Because you're also– you're talking– lots of adoptees– it's just it's–

Haley Radke: It’s so maddening you can't even find the words.

Liz Latty: It is! It's really tough, you know? And I see stuff like that a lot. And it's really difficult, and I think that we need to, as a community, think deeper and broader than that. And that the fight for original birth certificates is important. I still don't have access to mine. It's important work. But it is not the only work. And we can't do that work at the expense of folks who belong to our community as well. And other people who experience the loss of civil rights as well. It's like we're talking about movement-building or aligning ourselves with other movements, right? We're a small community, right? There's what, 5 million of us in the country supposedly –which of course we will never really know because nobody keeps records about us because they don't care– but we have to think about aligning ourselves. Our struggles are not necessarily different than folks who are fighting for dignity and civil rights in other ways. And so I think that we have to really examine that as a community and do better. And do better for everyone and also for our own work, right?

Haley Radke: Yeah. Yeah, totally. Oh my goodness. Well, we could talk about this all day, but– Yeah, what a great conversation. I really love what you said about that. We need to align with other communities and so we really need to watch our language. Because those things that we say can alienate. Yeah. So that's really important. Thank you.

Okay, so let's move to recommended resources. Yeah! I am bringing back something that I have recommended before, but it's so good, I have to recommend it again: Six Word Adoption Memoirs. I don't know if you've heard of this, Liz?

Liz Latty: I have, and I have met its makers.

Haley Radke: You have met its makers, oh my goodness. Okay. So they have been working on this for quite a while and they've just released a Six Word Adoption Memoir video for 2017. And it's so moving. It's a 20-minute video, and it features adoptees as well as first parents. There's even a father and son, and the father was adopted from an orphanage, and the son speaks to how his father's experiences affected him. Anyway, it's very moving. And talking about adoptee activism and things, and how powerful our stories are, you know, when something like this spreads, I think it brings awareness to some of the pain that adoption has caused. It's so beautifully done. Andrew Tash and Derek Frank are the ones behind the project, and I will put a link to that video. It's up on Vimeo, and they have of course a Facebook page. And this was kind-of exciting, I read one of their posts and let me just read it out here: “We shot 40+ stories and only a handful are contained in this video. We'll be working on more stories throughout the year.” So if you follow that Facebook page, you will be the first to know about when they've got new ones coming out. So I really recommend that everyone go in and follow that. And you've met them? I actually was in the same room with Andrew, but we never spoke and he emailed me later and I said, “Oh my goodness. Too bad we can't connect!”

Liz Latty: Next time around, next adoption conference around.

Haley Radke: That's right.

Liz Latty: Yeah. We met down in Atlanta at the AAC conference.

Haley Radke: Ok, great.

Liz Latty: Yeah, it was great to meet them.

Haley Radke: Yeah, I emailed back and forth a little bit with Andrew, just really nice guy. And yeah, I can't wait to see what else they have up their sleeves.

*Liz Latty: Absolutely.

Haley Radke: Okay, here's the moment of truth, Liz, what are you going to recommend to us today? No pressure.

Liz Latty: Oh gosh, I know, there's just so many that come to mind. And I think specifically, you know, I'm thinking just around our conversation around activism, a few books come to mind. I think it's just really important for us to know our history, right? And not just our history, our family history, but our larger history as people who have been affected by the system and institution of adoption. And so one really good online resource could be the Adoption Museum Project. Are you familiar with the Adoption Museum Project?

Haley Radke: I get their newsletter. It's actually on my list of things to recommend. So you beat me to it. Go ahead. Tell us about it.

Liz Latty: Yeah, they're a project based out in the Bay Area. You can find them at adoptionmuseumproject.org. They do different kinds of work around adoption through a social justice lens, and there's not a physical museum space at this time, but they do different kinds of pop-up events and installations, and field trips, and think tanks, and all different kinds of stuff around adoption, both the history and the future. And again, through a social justice lens. And they have a great newsletter. Laura Callen is the founder and she sends out a fantastic newsletter with lots of great resources in and of itself. Every month.

Haley Radke: Absolutely. They're so generous with their spotlight, right? They're always highlighting different people's work there, it’s beautiful.

Liz Latty: Yeah. So that's a good one. And then, if you want to geek out –I like to geek out– Kinship by Design is a great book for learning more about the history of modern American adoption. It's by Ellen Herman. And thinking, too, more about how systems of economic and racial injustice really are the underpinnings of adoption, and what that means for our future. In terms of activism, I think some other good resources would be, well, one book that comes to mind is Beggars and Choosers by Rickie Solinger. I would also encourage folks to learn about the reproductive justice movement, as well. And a good place to learn about reproductive justice would be the Sister Song website. They’re a women of color collective based in Atlanta.

Haley Radke: Great, thank you so much. Those all sound fantastic. Liz, thank you for sharing your story with us. It was so moving and I know it's going to help many people to hear your journey.

Liz Latty: Thanks, Haley. It was really great talking to you. Thank you for having me.

Haley Radke: You can find Liz's work on her website, liz-latty.com. Liz is on Twitter and Facebook at Liz Latty (@lizlatty). I can't even believe this is episode 12 and in my seasons I have 13 episodes. So… math… that means in 2 weeks I'll be airing my season finale. And I don't want to build this up too much, but it's worth the wait, I promise. Jessenia Parmer of I Am Adopted shares her story, and I kept her up super, super late because we just couldn't stop talking. You don't want to miss this episode, so make sure you're subscribed to wherever you listen to podcasts.

I'm also going to be launching a monthly newsletter to keep you in the loop. It's only going to be monthly, because no one has time for more email. I definitely don't. You can subscribe to that on AdopteesOn.com. Last but not least, this episode was brought to you by my fantastic Patreon supporters. I can't even believe this, I have 28 generous partners who have pledged to support me monthly so I can continue to produce this podcast for you. They literally make it possible for me to keep these adoptee stories coming. Thank you, friends. Thank you for standing with me. If you want to stand with us to make sure adoptee voices are heard, you can visit Adopteeson.com/partner.

Thank you for listening, let's talk again next Friday.