302 greiby medina

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/302

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Haley Radke: [00:00:00] This podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing stated on it either by its hosts or any guests, is to be construed as psychological, medical, or legal advice.

You are listening to Adoptees On the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. I'm Haley Radkey. Today I'm pleased to introduce you to greiby medina, author of The One Who Loves You the Most. greiby was adopted from Honduras at age two and a half to a single white mother. We discuss changing names, why greiby is not a fan of the term coming out of the fog and being afraid people won't like us because we're adopted. Before we get started, I wanna personally invite you to join our Patreon adoptee community over on adopteeson.com/community, which helps support you and also the show to support more adoptees [00:01:00] around the world. We wrap up with some recommended resources and as always, links to everything we'll be talking about today are on the website, adopteeson.com.

Let's listen in. I'm so pleased to welcome to Adoptees On greiby medina. Hello greiby.

greiby medina: Hi, how are you?

Haley Radke: I'm great. I'm so glad to finally get a chance to interview you.

greiby medina: I'm happy to be here. Thank you so much for thinking of me. I feel like I've docked you a few times, like we've had email exchanges, so I'm really happy that we'd have an opportunity to finally chat.

Haley Radke: Yes. I'd love it. If you wouldn't mind, would you share some of your story with us?

greiby medina: Sure. I was adopted when I was two and a half years old from Honduras. I was actually born in San Pedro Sula, Honduras, and then I was transferred to Tegucigalpa because they deemed me as adoptable because I was more [00:02:00] aligned with white. I was considered. Beautiful because I was white, because colorism is a real thing in Latin America and in Latinidad. And I actually have learned a lot more about my story recently. I was adopted by a single white mother who is an educator of deaf education, and I grew up in Portland, Maine. I'm an author, I'm a youth advocate, and I live in Spanish Harlem now.

Haley Radke: Can you share why you were available for adoption at two and a half?

greiby medina: So the story that was told to my mother, and my mother was, my adoptive mother, I'll say, was 33 when she went to Honduras. The story was that my birth mother was very young and she gave me up, but the real story that I know now is my birth mother actually went to prison [00:03:00] at age 20. She had me when she was 19. She went to prison for defending me because she was pregnant with me and somebody was trying to steal me when she was pregnant with me.

Haley Radke: So she went to prison and then there was no one to take care of you, so the government took you in some capacity.

greiby medina: My mother. Had one of my sisters, we all have different fathers, right? When she was 15, so they kicked her out. She was born in a very small city and she went north to make money and try to bring money back home. And her plan was to probably stay in that bigger city. She was essentially estranged from that family, but she was raised by her grandmother and she was kicked out as a young person like I'll say primary school, like young from her mother. Her mother wasn't interested in having a child, so all she really knew was being displaced. And, all of her rights were stripped from her because she [00:04:00] was a non person essentially. She was literate. And when someone is put up for adoption, there's a notice in the newspaper, but the notice was in a different city and my mother was sitting in jail. How is she going to be like, oh, it's actually my child.

Haley Radke: So how did you come to know the new story? Were you an adult already?

greiby medina: Yeah, I was an adult already. Facebook I have been.

Haley Radke: Classic. Me too.

greiby medina: And literally. Yeah. And it's like we have a very, huh. Complicated relationship with Facebook right now.

A lot of us in the world. And I wanna also say too, part of my story is that I've always known that I was adopted. I've always had my paperwork. I've always known what my name is, and so even when I was a child, like 9, 8, 7, 6, I was looking for my birth family and my mother was like, go for it. But we didn't have Facebook back then.

If I was seven and I had Facebook, I probably would've found my birth [00:05:00] mother, but I came to know my story because I went on like an affinity group for that small town that she grew up in. And I posted 'cause I speak Spanish. And when I say small, like small and obviously the population has gotten bigger since then.

So when she grew up in the seventies, everyone knows everyone. They're like, oh, that the white house by the church. Yes, of course we know them. So they knew exactly who I was talking about and, her, my aunt, I guess messaged me.

Haley Radke: So have you been able to connect any further with family members there?

greiby medina: Yeah, so you know what's interesting is that, I wouldn't say interesting, but I was actually literally moving to New Orleans as this was happening because I wasn't expecting it to be real. Do you know what I mean? I wasn't expecting to actually. For somebody to be like, oh yes, that's that. That is I, and [00:06:00] so I did.

I connected and they actually didn't believe me that I was who I said I was because I have the same name spelled differently as my younger sister. My sister, who is so why I'm gonna be 38. My younger sister, greiby, that spell with Y and she's 25. Same exact name, middle name, two little spelled a little differently.

And she's a character I'll say. And so they thought that she, we were like, they were being punked and I looked like her dear, or she looks like me. So a lot of it was me trying to convince them that I was who I was. And I'm literal, there's moving people coming in and outta my apartment.

And I was like, can we talk later? And then they were like, we're your family. Don't you wanna talk now? I'm like, sure. But so we had to put a pin in it.

Haley Radke: I think that's such a good observation for people, right? With the reunion, things like it happens during [00:07:00] our real life.

greiby medina: Yeah.

Haley Radke: You're moving and all of a sudden the messages are coming in.

greiby medina: Yeah. Yeah.

Haley Radke: Did your mom keep your original name then? Were you named greiby at birth?

greiby medina: No, I wasn't. I had an Italian name. A very long hyphenated Italian name, which is, I love that name. But she actually was going through Hurricane Gabrielle when she went to Honduras, and that's why she, that's why she named me Gabrielle.

That was my former name. And she kept my mom's name Alicia, for my middle name. So I thought it was beautiful, but when I got older and I actually reclaimed my name like in 2020. So pretty recently, but I think probably when I was like 16, 17, 18, I told people to call me greiby. Do you know what I mean?

Like people called me that I changed my name together, all different types of names and that was just something that I did.

Haley Radke: So your biological family, you were named greiby then.

greiby medina: Correct yes.

Haley Radke: Okay. Yeah. And now you've renamed yourself [00:08:00] that, okay.

greiby medina: Yes. Yeah.

Haley Radke: Oh, that's interesting. So then your mom chose to name your younger sister greiby as well.

greiby medina: Yeah. And the story with that, by the way, is actually sad, but as a writer, you kind of transmute sadness into art. But she knew she was not going to see me again. She got out of prison. She, again, was not believed. We have the family curse is not being believed. She was not believed that I existed because they're like, you were, what do you mean you're pregnant?

I don't see a baby. And so she named my younger sister greiby to remember me, 'cause she knew she would never see me again. And then she died when I was 12, so she died at age 33, which is interesting because that's when my mom adopted me.

Haley Radke: Oh, I'm sorry.

greiby medina: Yeah. She had a very hard life. Poverty killed my mother. That's what I say.

Haley Radke: Yep. And that's why you were available for adoption, right?

greiby medina: Exactly.

Haley Radke: Poverty. Yeah. So have you gone back to Honduras?

greiby medina: I have. I've gone back [00:09:00] three times, at least. The first time I was volunteering at a nonprofit organization on the coast. And I had a terrible time actually because a lot of people had different opinions about why they wanted to be there, and they didn't really recognize or appreciate that I was literally Honduran.

And, um, my profound reason for being there might be different than theirs. And so I was only there for three or four months. But I was friends with this woman who owned a bar or a restaurant on the beach and I just sat there all the, like almost every day and hung out with her and her family and had fried fish and chips.

But I've definitely it's interesting that you ask that question because I often feel like when I go back, 'cause I've gone to Latin America multiple times, but I feel like when I go. I'm not appreciated for, [00:10:00] I'm not saying like appreciated, appreciate me, but like I'm not seen as a literal Latin American because I am so Americanized.

And so we have people from Norway, Sweden, whatever, international students who might be doing missionary work, whatever they're doing, and I speak fluent English and maybe my Spanish wasn't as good as it is now, and I'm just this person that is from Maine. And so it's okay, got it. So definitely been back and when I was there, actually it was really beautiful because the, that woman that I was just talking about, her husband was one of the local taxi drivers and he wanted to help me find my birth family and get my ID and do these certain things. But like I was supposed to be volunteering, like I was not supposed to be doing these things.

Haley Radke: Were you ready to search then?

greiby medina: Absolutely. Did.

Haley Radke: You wanted to? Okay.

greiby medina: Yeah. I feel like I have, I have OCD, so there's like always like this PI and in my brain, like a private investigator in my [00:11:00] brain, and I'm very good at compartmentalizing as well. So I was like, let's go, let's do it. Go time. But at the same time, I'm like, I need to, I, I need to be at my post I'm volunteering. So we didn't really get to, that didn't come into fruition unfortunately. And then, I did leave because I just, the environment was strange to me and then all of a sudden I ended up adopting 12 kittens. Yeah.

Haley Radke: So what was it like growing up in Maine?

greiby medina: Maine is beautiful. Maine in itself as a state is a beautiful state. I loved being a kid before I went to kindergarten, before I entered school.

I loved being with my mom, my mom, as a child, and being coddled by my mom and being safe with my mom, I loved that. When I got to school and then when I met, started meeting people, school was very difficult because I had [00:12:00] cerebral palsy. I had surgery when I was five or six years old, so I was literally recovering from surgery.

I was in a wheelchair for probably eight weeks. I was in cast, I was in braces. I was bullied a lot for different, various reasons for being adopted, for looking different. Maine right now is probably the second most, second whitest state in North America. Vermont takes the pie for that.

Haley Radke: Yep.

greiby medina: And I will say too, that Portland, Maine is contrary to popular belief. Pretty diverse. You know the high school that I went to, we spoke over 200 languages because we do have a lot of immigrants that come to Maine for various reasons, because we do have some really great resources.

Haley Radke: So you write in your book, and we'll talk about it a little bit later, but about this group of kids that come together. And so I know community and friendship's really important to [00:13:00] you. Were you able to build that for yourself as a teen or even younger?

greiby medina: Yeah. Good on, yes. Yeah. I definitely, write from a place of this unmet childhood need, or childhood, I would even say wound or trauma of not really finding authentic community, I. I did find it in a couple of friends, but I don't think I ever had like a breakfast club like community. I think that's fantastical and people, if people have that, I hope they do. That's awesome. In high school, I think, this is the funny thing, I played sports all through from like second grade to graduated high school. I was very good at sports, upper body 'cause I have cp.

Haley Radke: Okay. What did you play?

greiby medina: I played softball, lacrosse, swimming, couldn't do basketball. I tried. I was like, I can't run you guys. And then I did ice hockey and field hockey. So I was [00:14:00] always playing sports. When you're in sports, a lot of times the default is.

You're popular and I'm funny, so I used humor. I was actually a lot funnier than I am now, folks. I'm a little traumatized. I did have a group of friends quote you know what I'm saying? Sure cliquey of people that like I could sit at lunch with. But I didn't really particularly really agree with a lot of the things that they did, and I would often be like somebody that would float around and just talk to everybody.

Haley Radke: So in our previous discussions and emailing back and forth, you mentioned to me that you weren't outta the fog, you were never in a fog. Can you talk a little bit about that? Are you comfortable sharing about that? What do you mean by that?

greiby medina: Yeah, I think I was very firm with that. I was like, I was never in the fog.

I think it's and maybe you can correct me if I'm wrong too, 'cause it's a lot of times. I'm gonna make a comparison, and [00:15:00] maybe this is outlandish, but like when even when we talk about white supremacy or we talk about kinds of cultures of dismantling these internalized, very harmful systems and we're like I'm not that.

I could never be that. You are that because we all are that because that's what is ingrained in us and that's cultural and it's capitalism and it's these things. When I say I don't believe that I was, because I was actively not. Being that or being in it. So every day I was actively not in the fog.

I would like to ask you actually, how would you define the fog as, because everyone has I'm very I like to be precise with language. Are we using the same shared language? When we talk about these things, right?

Haley Radke: You're a writer and I know it's very important to you you get the word, you get right to the words.

So there's a new model now called the adoptee consciousness model, which I like very much, and they [00:16:00] talk about these different touch points. As we go through adulthood and examine adoption, there's all of these things that we may come to or may not, and it's a little bit different than describing the fog.

So in the fog, I would always talk about, it's like examining what adoption has, how it has really impacted our lives. And you are coming into awareness of that. And so I think the problem a lot of people have with that language is it's you're either in or you're out. And that's not really how it is.

Like eight years ago, I would say, oh, I'm out of the fog, and here I am eight years later being like an activist to help more mothers keep their babies, and how can we, fully engage in family preservation [00:17:00] work and those kinds of things. I had no language for that back then. I knew there was something wrong with stranger adoption in my case.

I knew that there were a lot of people who felt like actually crazy because adoption's the best thing ever. What do you mean you don't feel like you fit in your family? And so you internally feel like there's something wrong with you. But I don't fit here and I'm not grateful.

And so all of those pieces would be. Quote unquote, coming outta the fog or the adoptee consciousness model is really interesting. We'll link to it in the show notes for folks who wanna have a look at it and engage with it a little bit more with the different touch points because it's much more helpful and not as linear. Because it's not linear.

greiby medina: And when you were talking about that too, I think in tandem and also complimentary to that. I'm thinking of grief and how grief is just not [00:18:00] linear. You're not

Haley Radke: Exactly.

greiby medina: I'm not grieving anymore. Yeah. Sometimes we are and sometimes we're not, and sometimes we think we're not. And it's just not linear.

Haley Radke: And grief looks so different.

greiby medina: For everyone. Yeah.

Haley Radke: Yeah.

greiby medina: And every day.

Haley Radke: Exactly. Like you could have memories of your loved one and it brings joy to you 'cause are delighting in some past thing, reliving, and then the next day you're like, oh my gosh, like you're not here.

greiby medina: Yes. I could never look at you again. Yeah. Absolutely. So it's really about nuance and. Yeah, I think it's very complex. So I.

Haley Radke: It sounds like to me, I don't wanna put words in your mouth,

greiby medina: do it,

Haley Radke: it sounds like to me,

greiby medina: I'd love it

Haley Radke: that your mom was really good at talking to you about adoption.

greiby medina: Yes.

Haley Radke: Talking to you about being Honduran.

greiby medina: Yes.

Haley Radke: And all of those things.

greiby medina: Yes. And she tried to, and she'd listen. I was actually the resistant one. Okay, because she, listen she put me in language school, like Spanish school. She was like, do you wanna go Spanish school? I was like, sure. [00:19:00] I quit after two days.

There was a Bolivian family that lived near me. I was embarrassed because I actually had a crush on the older sister. There were different situations where, and then she was like, I don't wanna keep putting you in these situations, because I know I'm embarrassing you. I want you to be ready to connect with Latin American and like back then.

Back then, I'm so old now. I'm wise. I'm not old. It's an age it's a number. There were not that many,

Haley Radke: I think four years ahead of you. So

greiby medina: we are wise beyond that, no, but like back then I'm growing up in Portland, Maine, and. I was born in 1987, so I'm 10. In 1997, I probably saw two Latin American people in my high school.

That doesn't mean that they didn't exist or in my actual class, like not class one, 200 people in the classes that I had, like science, whatever, every day. And they came from different neighborhoods. I grew up in a [00:20:00] suburban north Deering. I wasn't rich, it was just, back then there was a middle class.

There was like an upper middle class thing. It was weird, but I was not exposed to, it was either an immigrant population of Latin American folks that were in downtown Portland. And that I was not, that, that was 15 minutes away from where I lived. I went down there to have coffee and go to the movies, but I was in a different socioeconomic bracket, so I was not exposed.

And then when I did have that one Bolivian family that I talk about in one of those, in the Catapult article, I fumbled to the ball, you know what I mean? Because I was, I personally on a soul level was not ready to be vulnerable with them because I was afraid that as if they didn't know that I was adopted. They did. They did, but I was afraid that they wouldn't like me. Because I was adopted.

Haley Radke: [00:21:00] I think I'm thinking of, I just had this therapy session a couple weeks ago, and that's literally what I started out saying to the therapist I was working with.

greiby medina: Wow.

Haley Radke: Like my first thing was like, I'm afraid you're not gonna like me.

greiby medina: Yeah.

Haley Radke: And it's this deep core belief that a lot of us hold. I'm afraid you won't like me, I'm unlovable. What's the reason we were separated from our original parents? There's some, and you can look back now and be like, she was in prison.

greiby medina: Literally,

Haley Radke: it's not right. But it's,

greiby medina: I wanna say like spiritually grateful that I've always felt and known like I'm very spiritual in this way, where I'm very connected to. I've always been very connected to my birth mother. Like really? Like I knew when she was no longer in the world. I really did when I was like, when I was 12. It was interesting 'cause my grandmother, whom I loved, my Italian grandmother, I'm just gonna say Italian [00:22:00] grandmother, my aunt, so when my Italian grandmother died around the same time, I just, before even that phone call happened, I was like. Grandmother's, our grandmother's dead. I have always been, because even in thinking of motherhood and I'm not a mother, I'm not gonna go there. But even in thinking of like why isn't this person contacting me?

We have Facebook, we have this, they're not okay. If they know that they have a kid out there. So I have always known that there is a reason, and by the way, my mom alicia, she tried to come to America three times and she was unsuccessful, and half of my family actually lives in North America, but she was unsuccessful and there's still a lot that I wanna uncover about her. I'm still studying and doing a lot of things in here, but like it's, I still feel like. She deserves justice.

Haley Radke: So do you feel like there was a point in your [00:23:00] time where you felt, okay, now I feel Honduran versus the Americanized version of you? Or do you still feel just like a mix of identities? And you were talking about the first time you went to Honduras and people were like, we, you're not from here. How about the third time? Did you ever feel like you belonged there or you were from there?

greiby medina: Oh, listen, I have definitely felt like that.

Haley Radke: Okay.

greiby medina: Different things and different, and I think it's Honduran people and not that you're saying this right, but it depends on who I meet and where I am locally. In the physicality of Honduras. Like I could be in Tegucigalpa and they're like, oh, I totally get it. For sure. 'cause there could be international students that are coming back and visiting family and they're like, yeah, I get it. We're third culture kids, or whatever it is at this end of the day.

It's what they're projecting onto me. And I've [00:24:00] literally have always, from how as long as I can remember, and I have a very good memory. I like to remind people I've been proud of who I am, where I come from, and the things that I don't know about myself since kindergarten, since first grade, since I did my star of the week and, begged them to let me go first and talk about Honduras. You know what I mean? But then I was shut down and. I'm not gonna mention her name 'cause she's still around and she raises her hand and she says, yeah, that's nice, but where's your dad? Why don't you have a dad? And so that's when I stopped sharing because I'm telling you something I'm very proud of.

And you care about, like there are a lot of people that don't have dads here and that aren't adopted. Why do you care so much? Yeah. So yeah.

Haley Radke: Kids are brutal.

greiby medina: So, brutal.

Haley Radke: Yeah. Kids can be so brutal.

greiby medina: So brutal. But you know what? I still like kids and I write for kids. I like their, they're honest. You don't have to be, you don't have to be mean. I like their honesty though.

Haley Radke: Yeah. I was [00:25:00] gonna say they tell it like it is, but they don't always need to. I'm thinking of your Honduran mother and the story you said about. They were trying to steal you before you were even here and just the child trafficking of it all. The system is just so broken. And our society sees opportunities for swooping in and saving, quote unquote. Instead of really what 's broken is helping kids stay with their families.

greiby medina: Put the money into the families that are struggling. Yeah, and just to clarify too, she was working as a live-in like cleaning person, so it was actually them. That was like, so it's

Haley Radke: That we're gonna try and steal you.

greiby medina: Because they thought Yeah, because she was very beautiful. Like literally, right? So they're like, this is going to be a beautiful baby. We own you. Literally we feel like we own you. And yeah, it's very traumatic and [00:26:00] it's good thing I can compartmentalize, no woman, no person deserves to be separated from their loved one in any way like that. Obviously and in any way period to their biological loved one.

Haley Radke: Okay. Before we do recommended resources, is there anything I missed asking you about that you really wanna mention or talk about?

greiby medina: Listen, I'm really happy that you have this podcast. Honestly, I have known about this podcast forever and when I say forever, eight years plus. And so I really wanted to thank you for that. Like big props. It's not an easy thing to do. Big production. Awesome. I wanted to just shout you out and thank you again.

Haley Radke: Aw, thanks. greiby. That's so kind of you. Yeah I found your book. I don't even remember when, it was, when it was first out. The One Who Loves You the Most, would you, this is YA or is it middle grade?

greiby medina: That's so funny you said that, like that's what people say. It's [00:27:00] actually technically middle grade.

Haley Radke: Okay. I was wondering about that.

greiby medina: Yeah, because middle grade's eight years old to like 12,

Haley Radke: okay,

greiby medina: so they're, yeah.

Haley Radke: Yeah. So I read it then, and this time when I reread it, I listened on audio.

greiby medina: Oh, cool.

Haley Radke: And it was so lovely. I really enjoyed listening to it, and I thought that the person who read it did a great job. It's a really cool picture of what community could look like for someone who is searching for that. I feel like you really did put a big part of your story in here, and I'm thinking of your mom in particular, the mother character. She's just, as you described, your mom to us today. And yeah, it's just really

greiby medina: thank you.

Haley Radke: It's a beautiful story. We talked about this before about representation. We haven't talked about it here. I'm sorry. A previous conversation I had with greiby for listeners,

greiby medina: ' cause I'm a yapper, I don't [00:28:00] stop talking. Yes, we did talk. We probably have, yes.

Haley Radke: I love that you wrote a book that maybe you needed when you were in school, so

greiby medina: Absolutely. I think absolutely. I did. Yeah. And I hope that young people continue to read my book. Teachers, if you're listening, librarians.

Haley Radke: Yeah.

greiby medina: Absolutely.

Haley Radke: Thank you. Okay, so we'll make sure to link to it in the show notes. And I love adoptee representation also in books. And that's in there too.

greiby medina: Yeah. And I have, can I ask you a question? Do you feel like it is, obviously I'm an adopted person that wrote it, but do you glean from the book that is an adopt, it's like about adoption too, because there's so many different themes. I don't want that to get lost.

Haley Radke: Oh, definitely. Oh, definitely. I think the protagonist is really searching for who am I? What's my identity? And so [00:29:00] I felt so deeply for them because not only as an adoptee, you're looking for your identity in this world and you've got all the layers here. Yeah, it's complicated, but that's,

greiby medina: it's complicated.

Haley Radke: That's what our lives are, right? It's complicated. Yeah. Okay. So greiby, we are gonna order your book, but what do you wanna recommend to us?

greiby medina: Honestly, I just want people to, if they have an interest, to tap into that interest and to keep learning and growing and failing and being okay to fail. Because when we learn from our failures. We become better people and that makes the world better.

Haley Radke: Do you wanna share about Adoptees of South America?

greiby medina: Oh, absolutely. I actually stumbled across them. I. A few years or maybe during Covid, COVID was a time when we were online. I have chatted with them online a few times and they're just wonderful.

They have, [00:30:00] they do events. They have a wonderful community from literally adoptees from South America and Central America, and they're lovely people. I believe one of the founders is a social worker. They are on Instagram. Adoptees of South America. They also have a website and a link tree that is in their Instagram as well, and you can find out more there.

Haley Radke: Okay. We'll make sure to link to that. Yeah. I think especially for adoptees, like when you're looking for community and whatever kind of supports you need, if you're searching or in reunion or you're trying to navigate intercountry searching, like all of those kind of things. It's really cool to connect with adoptees who are adopted from the same country you are, or similar. Yeah.

greiby medina: Region. Yeah. And also I'll say just as a sidebar as like a note about that is look at who they follow and who likes their posts. Because a lot of times there are a lot of different new collectives, I'll say organizations for adoptees and [00:31:00] by adoptees. And maybe that's a community for you too.

Haley Radke: Definitely. Thank you so much for talking with me greiby. Such an honor. And I don't, I won't ask where people can connect with you online since you're offline.

greiby medina: I'm so mysterious.

Haley Radke: You're mysterious. But we will link to your book. And a couple of the articles that you've written so people can read your work there.

greiby medina: Cool. Thank you.

Haley Radke: I know I've said this before, but I just wanna remind y'all if you are hoping to support adoptee authors and your book buy list is getting extensive and too many for on your TBR pile, another great way you can support adoptee authors is requesting their books from your local library.

Often libraries will have a suggest we buy this book page and my, my local library, I think you can suggest up to five books a month [00:32:00] and you can write in the name an author of the book. You can tell them why you want them to purchase it, and often they will. And so it's a great way to support adoptee authors and have more people have access to their work in the world.

So I love doing that for adoptee authors. Anyway thank you so much for listening. Let's talk again soon.

301 [Healing Series] Wounds of Childhood with Anna Linde, Sexologist

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/301

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Haley Radke: [00:00:00] This podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing stated on it either by its hosts or any guests, is to be construed as psychological, medical, or legal advice.

You are listening to Adoptees On the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. I'm Haley Radke. This is a special episode in our healing series where we bring on adoptee experts to tackle issues that may impact our mental health. Most often we're talking with therapists, but today I invited Anna Linde a sexologist to talk with us about the impacts of childhood sexual abuse on adopted people.

This issue is so prevalent in our community, and yet hardly anyone ever talks about it. We have talked about so many difficult things on this show that I think we're finally ready. So we do [00:01:00] keep this to a high level discussion, but please take care when deciding if this is a safe episode for you to listen to.

We also always have transcripts available. If that feels like a less triggering option for you, there is a link in the show notes. Before we get started, I want to personally invite you to join our Patreon adoptee community on adopteeson.com/community, which helps support you and also the show to support more adoptees around the world.

Links to everything we'll be talking about today are on the website, adopteeson.com. Let's listen in.

I am so pleased to welcome to Adoptees On Anna Linde. Welcome Anna. How are you?

Anna Linde, MSc: Thank you. I'm great and I'm happy to be here.

Haley Radke: I'm so glad to finally speak with you and you are a multicultural world traveler. And why don't you start by sharing just a little bit of [00:02:00] your story with us, because I think it will hit how many countries you've been in.

Anna Linde, MSc: True. So I am adopted from Brazil. And I'm raised in Sweden. So I lived maybe my first 34 years in Sweden, some something like this. And then we moved to Spain and we lived in Portugal. And we were traveling around in Europe and now we live in Thailand since one and a half years.

Haley Radke: Amazing. That's a lot of places. And you are a sexologist, which some people might not know what that term is. Can you tell us what led you to study that and what is a sexologist?

Anna Linde, MSc: What led me to study sexology is when I had my kids and I realized how much of my own story and background and roots and fear that was included automatically in the experience of giving [00:03:00] birth.

And then when I was sitting in that situation, or when I was giving birth, and I had all of these questions coming up from my body, and I had all of the other questions that I had already in my head, I was hoping to find a way on how to make meaning out of them somehow. And I already had my bachelor in social work.

So then when I got a divorce, I was Googling what was possible to study and I found sexology for this master. So then I thought, yeah, why not? How could sex be boring? What's the first

Haley Radke: It really isn't

Anna Linde, MSc: Somehow, but yeah. But of course it's different to study it than if you think about it. That's a funny. Funny thing, but it's really been an eyeopener in so many ways. So I'm very happy for that choice.

Haley Radke: And so when you think about how you were taken from [00:04:00] Brazil and brought to Sweden and the critiques of adoption that Sweden has now been having now in the early 2020s what was the impact that adoption had on you and how do you see it now from the adult perspective?

Anna Linde, MSc: So I think it's important to make a difference in what you think personally from your own story, because I think in from that perspective, we will all have very different experiences or very different thoughts.

I'm very privileged because I've been to Brazil and I met my biological mom. I met everybody in my family. So for me personally, I've been able to make a little closure with that part of me, or the not knowing part or the why did you gave me away part. So I think if I wouldn't have that experience, I would think totally different about adoption, [00:05:00] but.

Based on what I just said I think Sweden deserves all the critique. I think there's a lot of stupidity, a lot of mistakes that are not mistakes, but that are planned. And there's a lot of bleep that has been ongoing. So I'm very happy that Sweden finally gets critique for what is not okay that has been going on.

But me personally, I think I have a very privileged situation or relationship to my adoption with good connection with my adoptive parents, with good opportunities and not so many mental health challenges as many others. That's, that of course makes it easier to just look at the critique and feel that I'm upset.

It's upsetting what has been going on, but I'm also feeling more of a calm feeling inside that finally, the truth is here and [00:06:00] many people can get some ratification now instead.

Haley Radke: Definitely. I'm finding it very fascinating watching the implications for international adoption and what countries are deciding to do on a case by case basis.

And I think we're living in interesting times, Anna where the truth is being revealed. So that's good. Anyway, we didn't come to talk about that today specifically. We came to talk about something even more difficult and in our first meeting I was sharing with you that over the years of doing this show, I have had a heartbreaking number of adoptees reach out to me to either share their personal experiences with having received sexual abuse at either the hands of an adoptive parent or an adopted sibling, or extended family member, or looking for help [00:07:00] with these things, and I often didn't know where to send them. And it's like a taboo topic and it's such a difficult thing to talk about because I think it's way more prevalent than people think. And of course there's reasons for that and we can talk about that. One of them being, I think, like I'll just say, when you're adopted into a family, then the taboo of incestuous behavior can be quote unquote removed for the adoptive family members. And so I just think we're just at a higher risk for being taken advantage of. What are your thoughts on that?

Anna Linde, MSc: Yeah. So first of all, I think exactly like you're saying that this is such a, this is a [00:08:00] difficult topic to approach, but just to remind you how important your work is being people, being able to even reach out to you about it and you catalyzing it like this, making an episode about it so that we can, talk about it for all of these individuals that have emailed you, because then this episode is for them.

Of course. And for everybody else that is affected by it. And that's really important to just, remind us that even if a lot of people are suffering and have been suffering, this is why what we're doing counts. And it is important because they are not alone. They are actually not at all alone.

Haley Radke: No.

Anna Linde, MSc: And from a Swedish perspective, which is a pretty good example, we have a very colorblind ideology in Sweden, which means that we don't see color because it's racist. Which is basically how I'm raised. [00:09:00] But we are in the same time over focusing in color, which means that a lot of adoptive parents and a lot of adults have been, it's been possible for them to express their desire of having children with almond eyes or chocolate skin or these type of things and, getting away with expressing themself in this way.

And I'm also not saying that these individuals or these parents have necessarily have had an an evil plan with that. But as a society, this have, opened the doors for it being accepted for our bodies to be desired in this way. And, having a body that's always visible.

As a child when adults or siblings but like, when [00:10:00] adults are a part of that desire, a part in looking at our bodies as others a part in, it being okay for them to be curious. That's of course moving the boundaries or, the normal or like the wished way. We want adults to interact with children when it comes to intimacy and sexuality.

So there's a lot of pieces in the puzzle around adoptees and adoptee bodies. And another part that I think matters is that we came to this family as a transaction, or the transaction was a big part of it, which also gives a different flavor on what we mean when we talk about quality in a relationship.

So there's a lot of subtle things and there's a lot of things that, that, makes this complicated. [00:11:00] And also the idea of that we should be grateful because if I am raised with the idea that I should be grateful of what I have, what I got in whatever that means. That means that I'm will probably not say no and I need to say no 'cause I learned that I should be grateful.

And if we then have a child that doesn't learn to say no, doesn't learn that you are supposed to say no, you have the right to say no. You have the right to your body and to have privacy. Rather the opposite, that we have children that are, othered, racialized sexualized by adults and nobody's protecting them from it.

Then the distance or, the time span for being sexually abused or having people that are supposed to be safe. To, walk over those boundaries or into that private space is much, much shorter. And I think that's a [00:12:00] big problem. All of these things that I said, I think all of them separately is a really big problem.

And then, there's probably more things in this that matters, but for me, those are the things that are the most visible.

Haley Radke: It's a perfect storm, right? All the things together. Yeah. In your experience, do you think that adoptees are more more affected by this than the general population. I don't like, we already always critique that there's not enough studies on adoptees, and so I'm assuming that there's not really too many studies, especially on this particular topic either, when frankly, we can't even get accurate numbers of how many adopted people there are, just as like a one.

Anna Linde, MSc: But if we look how closely related adoption is to human trafficking, [00:13:00] unfortunately, then it's also very easy to think that sometimes what is actually trafficking gets the title or name adoption because people can get away with that somewhere somehow. And that's one part that makes it really tricky, I think to actually see what is what.

Also, because of all of the different legalizations and laws in different countries and corruption and all of these things that has been possible because of corruption, because of the adults working in these organizations. But if you just look at any person who is traumatized, they will always have a different, understanding of the rights to have boundaries.

They will because they have been, walked over or it could be bullied, it could be whatever type of trauma as adoption is a [00:14:00] trauma for that child. Then, if you're acting out, then you are in more danger of meeting people that are, going to answer to those behavior in maybe a negative way.

Also in the same way, if you are, very different, you are very visible. And if you're very visible, then people see you. So there's a lot of things that I think makes adoptees in more danger for things, but also because we have a lot of already mental health challenges, issues, and all of the other, following problems and challenges for us in general.

So I would say yes, based on that. How would we not get more problems or get more in, dangerous situations as well.

Haley Radke: So this is one of those things that people mostly keep private, there's a great sense of shame, meaning, it was my [00:15:00] fault or I deserved it, or those kinds of things.

So you just keep it secret or hidden. When someone has put that away, what are some of the things that can happen in their lives that they might not necessarily attribute to this hidden childhood sexual abuse, but can come out in other ways? Maladaptive behaviors, let's say.

Anna Linde, MSc: So first of all, just to, to name what we're talking about when we're saying shame.

One thing that is really common is that adoptees, we swallow shame better than others because we are already carrying a lot of shame around our identities, as in not being able to stay in my own family, or the idea that it has to be something wrong with me. Because my mom didn't keep me or whatever thoughts that is, or whatever words there [00:16:00] is to describe it.

But many have and feel a strong sense of shame over their existence, over their, their position in the world over their destinies. So adding more shame to that might not be the biggest deal for some. But it just melts in with everything else. And then it might not affect them as much compared to others, but this is a very, it can be so different from every individual.

Also depending on which age you're in and everything else. But for many people and many adoptees that has experienced sexual abuse or trauma are usually pretty disconnected to their bodies. Which means that, sex might work, it might be pretty much as it should from their perspective or their idea of how a sex should work or be, [00:17:00] but it might also be that they're not feeling or experiencing pleasure.

They're not feeling that sex or sexual connection is something that is liberating, is something that is playful, is something that is funny and it's something that they have the right to choose a hundred percent if they wanna be involved with or not. But it could also be as certain things or certain situations like being, becoming pregnant, for example, or getting the information that you know, I'm going to be a father or whatever it might be for that person, might trigger something connected to this shame, which might make it impossible for those people to even want to touch somebody else or wanting to be touched. But the strong longing in general that we have for [00:18:00] finding our way home and melting together with somebody again or, becoming one or, returning to that place where we are supposed to be and where things were supposed to be different. And I'm talking in a very subconscious level now, but sex could also be, a way to represent that.

So between, the one side not wanting to be intimate, not wanting to have sexual connections at all, not enjoying it, to having much more than what might be, in the best interest of that person in that time because of that longing or because we are re, redoing something or we are trying to figure something out that's not a hundred percent clear.

That could also put us in pretty tricky situations because usually we don't feel good at all [00:19:00] if we're having sex for a reason, that we're actually not really a hundred percent clear. What that reason is

Haley Radke: For someone who maybe hasn't told anybody about this at all and is keeping it secret all these years.

It is now oh, maybe this is impacting my life. Maybe I should look at the past and like maybe examine this and bring it into the light and work on healing from this trauma. This can be really scary and feel life threatening. What are some ways that. You can open the door or know that you're safe to do let's say safe to look at something that can be so terrifying.

Anna Linde, MSc: I've just, for majority of people, this is how it feels, that it is terrifying, because even if we feel [00:20:00] that shame or that guilt or that fear or whatever strong emotion it might be. When we accept that it's there, it usually, blows up to a hundred percent strength and it feels like it might actually kill us, but that's not, that's not what it, what's going to happen, or that's not how it is.

But I would say maybe write it down. Start by writing what you remember. Or what happened, or write down how this episode feels to listen on, because it's not only, now I'm going to go and heal this. I need to fix it. But it's also allowing yourself to look at this that happened in your own pace and being with yourself.

Because almost everyone who has [00:21:00] been exposed or violated sexually has had, have the experience of having their bodies for somebody else. And if we are going to, move back to your bodies for you, your sexual or intimate connections is for you, then we need to go backwards and restore that.

In every place that it's possible. So writing it down what you remember, what you are thinking about, allowing yourself to feel everything that you're feeling about it, angry, sad, disappointed, disgusted, everything then feel it, write it down and be with yourself in that. But also that shame and guilt, usually both. The tricky part is to remember and to understand and remember that it's not yours. The [00:22:00] shame is not ours because we got exposed for something. The shame is the other person or persons, the abusers that overstepped your boundaries in this like tragic and horrible ways. And maybe multiple times they are supposed to feel this shame because shame is socially here for us to know how to navigate being with other people and because then you feel the shame that they are supposed to feel.

It's called secondary shame. That's also a thing. You can Google shame and secondary shame and just get that concept into your head so that you can start to make a difference. And that's two things that I think everybody can do and should do, can do. But I'm also thinking it's important to think forward.

Like what would you like, what is the best, what is the goal? What is the best [00:23:00] outcome? Like, where do you want to go? What does healing mean for you? And I talk a lot about sexual liberation, then maybe also that, what does that mean? For you personally or for the person listen personally and start to look at that, because with that, as in front of us or with that as an idea, then it's actually possible to start to navigate towards, but without an idea of what it means to be free or healed.

Which maybe means, I would start to date again, or I would start to date, ever. I never did or I would be more brave. I would try new things or I would take initiative or, it can be so many different things. So to start to think about that as well, to not get totally stuck in the pain or in the emotional, like anxiety and mess that it's [00:24:00] always a mess when we're trying to heal us.

Haley Radke: And what about for people who have maintained contact or relationship with the perpetrators and what does that look like into adulthood if you're starting to examine this? I don't know if you have tips on this or ideas for support. 'cause this is this is a big one.

Anna Linde, MSc: Yeah, that's a tricky one.

And the first thing I'm thinking is everybody who does this has a reason. Nobody does it because it's logic and made sense. And it was in the book that we were supposed to do it. Everybody has a reason and that reason, whatever that reason is, it's okay. We cannot do more than our best. And staying in contact with that person or those persons.

And if it's the parents or the relatives, which is, [00:25:00] common. Also siblings, like you said, also common. It's also the, it might be the only family we got and if you're in that position that you feel no, that this is the only family you got. You also heard that you're supposed to be grateful. And you're trying to balance that, that experience with, I might lose exactly everybody, and I'm nobody and nobody wants me.

That that's that's not funny. That's a bleep situation to be in. So for anybody who felt that they needed to choose between those two things, that choice cannot have been easy. And it's probably haunting them every day. And a lot of respect for everybody in that situation, trying to do their best with something that is really hard for people in general to understand or to even grasp, because people don't get it.

And it's [00:26:00] the same with a lot of people having a hard time leaving a partner that is abusive. But it's a similar fear because if the fear of abandonment or the fear of being alone is that strong, we cannot leave, then, that's a strong fear. Otherwise, it would've been easier to make a decision based on logic.

But majority of people are not doing that. So it's not, it's not so easy. Also, actually people who have the experience of being sexually abused or, physically abused, it's very easy to accidentally also become somebody that is abusing others. And then the shame and guilt is double.

And then how, how the hell, what, how do you get out of that? Because you usually get a lot of, moral and punishment from the society from [00:27:00] being an abuser or somebody that is violating other people's rights. And it's also important that majority of, people abusing others have this experience as well.

They were abused when they grew up, and that's it. Like we need to remember that as well. And I do this type of work. I coach people also around sexual trauma of course, because it's a very big thing. So I'm thinking if somebody like have an immediate question or feels like they would like to know more or have more, I don't know, ideas on what to do, then they could just send me an email maybe and better than emailing you in this case. I would also say.

Haley Radke: Yeah, I can't help you. I can't help you.

Anna Linde, MSc: No.

Haley Radke: If people ever wonder why I closed down all my dms and why my emails are private, it's things like this, Anna, I'm laughing about [00:28:00] it, but it's so difficult to hear people's deep traumatic events and know, there's nothing I can do to help.

I'm so sorry. It just, it's a weight that people carry and I don't I don't want you to have to carry that, I want you to get help and support and heal from these things, and I can't help you.

Anna Linde, MSc: No, but it's not, you're not supposed to know how to do it unless you learn how to do it also.

Haley Radke: Yes.

Anna Linde, MSc: Because it's, it is tricky. And it was tricky for me, and I think every, every professional experience that it's tricky in the beginning and it's probably different for us that have experience of similar things or similar experiences, probably different for us in this position. But I would say it's, it's important to protect yourself from getting overwhelmed because [00:29:00] then we are accidentally in a new trauma somehow, then I would say it's better to do this, that we talk and we are talking about it like this. And if also if I get a lot of question, we can do a follow up and we could answer those questions together. This could also be a way to pin down things not to traumatize everybody else but we can probably make that work. Some point.

Haley Radke: Let's talk about this. How would you like, give us some tips, like what are some things we can do to navigate, so you talked about writing a letter to ourselves or like recording what happened or what you hope will happen if you examine this and do some healing work. How do you find supports. I don't think this is something people should be doing on their own, frankly, because it is so it's such a deep wound. Anything sexual, it's just such a deep core woundedness, that you're touching.

Anna Linde, MSc: [00:30:00] Yeah, it is, and I think we are a little, in general, we're a little out of resources to handle, sexual health in general in the world, which is a sad part.

I put together a group together with Katherine Garland, and she wrote a book about being addicted to sex or like overusing sex and what she did, how she did, and why she did it. So we have a two day course or a two day two session workshop where we're going to talk more about this in May. So for anybody who's interested, you can find that link at your page somewhere.

Haley Radke: Yeah, we'll definitely put it in the show notes for folks for sure. And if you're listening in the future, we'll put whatever else Anna's got coming up for you.

Anna Linde, MSc: But I would say it's exactly like you're saying. We do need to heal in community because we need community as well. [00:31:00] But I would suggest that we look closer to what does it actually mean?

Because you already survived this. You survived it big time. Now we just need to look closer at the symptoms and at the consequences of your survival and make sure that you are reaching the best level in your sexual health in your life in, what it means for you. But you can always, remind yourself that you are a survivor.

You're not, this is not something that, you know, even if you replay this in your head, but if this is not something that is happening to you now, today, tomorrow, yesterday, then you survived it, and that's really important. Because you, you did already. And then you can look at what did I do? Like what strategies have I been using already?

And are they good or are they not? [00:32:00] But I also am thinking if you have a really good friend, then maybe it's possible to tell that friend that something bad happened to me when I was younger and I never thought about it this much as I'm doing now. But I am, and I'm going to look for a way to handle this differently 'cause I realize that, this is affecting me a lot and I just needed to say it. With, with, keep the information, keep most of the details for you because people are really bad in handling details in general. Around adoptees we very often get to hear that we're supposed to be grateful.

What would've happened if you stayed, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, which is a hundred percent not what you wanna hear when you're sharing something that is important. So also, keep yourself safe from that. [00:33:00]

Haley Radke: When people are starting to look at this and examine and do some healing work, like what are some things you can look for to know that your, your work on it is helping and is freeing you from this shame?

Anna Linde, MSc: That's a really good question. And it's hard work. It's like everything we do, it's hard work and our sexual identity is one of the layers of identities that we have and that we walk around in every day. And for, for me to express my sexuality in a way that, I can incorporate that I deserve pleasure.

That means that my sexual identity and everything else that I'm carrying in my body needs to be in line with I deserve pleasure or I deserve to have a good life. And sometimes these two things are not, they're not correlating, [00:34:00] but only from, a sexual perspective, a sexual health perspective, is that you deserve pleasure.

And that's the first thing I would say. You deserve it. You're not supposed to do anything or have sex because you should, because that's what we do. That's what expected, no, it's not like it's not. We have the right to redefine this and we should continue to redefine this all the time and the right to feel pleasure.

It's not only sexually, but that's emotionally, that's mentally that, physically, that socially we have the right to feel pleasure about what we're doing, where we are in the context we're in, or what, whatever's going on. And one way to look at that is of course, what does it mean for me to feel pleasure sexually and how is that in [00:35:00] situations where I'm alone with my body?

I want to touch myself. I want to explore then do I know what is pleasurable or not? Do I feel it? Do I know? Do I, do I, could I write the list of five things I like or is it just a, a surprise every time? Because then maybe exploring ourselves more what we actually like. It's like choosing writing a list of five dishes you like to eat.

Because we are supposed to actually know what we like, so we can navigate towards that. And with that, of course, take the time to redefine sex. What does it mean? What kind of attitudes do we have? What kind of ideas do I have about what is normal or not? What is okay or not what I should do or not like, what is going on in my head?

And usually [00:36:00] these norms mirror, the society as it is. But it could also mirror the idea I have about myself and the ideas I have about sex. So if I have a lot of negative experiences or one negative experience, then I might, think or feel that sex is, it is unsafe for me to have sex, it's unsafe for me to be in sexual connection.

And it's, that's how it is. And we can make new meanings. We have the right to do that. But then again, we need to know what kind of new moods we want to have. And what is important.

Haley Radke: Okay. I'm gonna interrupt the question because I'm curious what you think about this in trying to think about even what we like and you mentioned like dishes we like and things. So many of us struggle with boundaries and this is so [00:37:00] connected. Yeah.

Anna Linde, MSc: Yes. It is because if we're not, if we don't know what a true no is. And it's very hard for us to know how a yes feels and they come together. It's really, it's a lot of people that thinks and feels that it's scary to say, no, we don't wanna hurt anyone's feelings.

We don't wanna make anybody sad. We might never learn that it's okay for us to say no. And when we say no, somebody's, giving us guilt or shaming us for what we're saying. If we're never able to express a no, that's not for me, or no, I'm not hungry, or no I don't want it, or whatever it might be, then we will have a really hard time knowing where our yes are as well.

So for anybody who, feels this, that [00:38:00] we're saying, a lot of people are bad in saying no and not feeling that it's okay to have boundaries. Then I would say, you can remind yourself of who is the person that is the most difficult to say no to, and who around you is the person that is the most easiest to say no to?

And remind yourself that's how different it could be only between people that you met or that you have around you, but also in which situation is it okay for you to say no? Is it okay to say no thank you I'm not going to buy anything when you're walking out from a store? Or do you also get a bad feeling, not buying anything because you think whatever you might think about the person working there, being sad or whatever it might be. But also in, a sexual setting we're not supposed to do anything that we don't want [00:39:00] so that the other person will not get sad. I'm like that's a very, that's a very not beautiful and not amazing way to look at sexual health.

And I try to say this to kids, to teenagers, when I have those type of groups and especially to their parents that do you want your 13-year-old to give somebody a blowjob after school because otherwise that person would get, would feel sad. Is that a valid, is it a valid reason? Because it's not, and then this is not how we're supposed to think about it in general.

Haley Radke: That's a good point. That's a very good point Anna. Um, I really appreciate you talking to us about this extremely difficult topic. I think you've given us a lot to think about. Is there any last things you wanna leave us with before we tell people where we can connect with you and [00:40:00] find out more resources?

Anna Linde, MSc: I think, the more you think about sexual health. The more you think about sexology, the more you realize that it's not only something about me and somebody else, or me and other people, but it's about norms in the society that tells us what is okay or not. And it's about ideas from culture or from religions or from politicians that are creating what is actually possible to do or not in so many different ways and levels. And we can, we can challenge this all the time. And one way that I, it's funny to challenge for yourself is to just, you can ask yourself, which words am I comfortable in using? If I would describe my body, for example, then which words am I actually comfortable in using?

Would I like when you, [00:41:00] now maybe I cannot say these words now because I realize that you're going to air this and you, might get sensored but which words is okay? Which words can you use? And is there other words that you're not using and what happens if you use them? What happens if you use one of those words instead?

Can you practice? What happens if you say that word 10 times? It could be so easy. So so to say the word period, like I'm on my period. Okay. But is that are you feeling stressed or anxious about using that word? Then maybe that's something to practice. That's a thing. That's how we can actually change what we're doing and what is going on.

Haley Radke: Okay. I was thinking in my head of all the words and I was like, please don't make me say any of these words and you didn't. So thanks.

Anna Linde, MSc: Trying not to say them out loud because usually I just say [00:42:00] them out loud.

Haley Radke: Yes.

Anna Linde, MSc: And now I was like. Maybe you need to cut them off. No, that's a lot of work.

That's tricky. And then I thought, okay, I really need to work now not to say that.

Haley Radke: We'll just have a string of beeps in here and then people will just imagine what you said. No. Okay. Where can we connect with you online and find out about working with you or other courses or things that you're offering?

Anna Linde, MSc: I do a lot of things. A lot of things. So I have an individual coaching program where there is prerecorded like sessions or like homework sessions, exercises, and you still get, I think it's nine, I don't remember right now. I think it's nine individual sessions and the handouts to every team that we're working with.

So that's one way that is maybe the easiest one to work with me. Otherwise, I have groups together with other [00:43:00] professionals and other colab partners because it's funny to do things together. This group in May that I was talking about is the closest one or one closest in time. Easiest is to find me at, I think Substack, theadoptedsexologist.Substack.com.

And on Instagram, I'm also theadoptedsexologist. Which is also my webpage, theadoptedsexologist.com. I'm trying not to be so complicated. Let's see. I, it's too complicated anyway, but I think Substack is the best place because there I also have some recordings trying to do some podcasting on my own. Upload some freebies and stuff. That's fun.

Haley Radke: Perfect. We will link to all those things. And your newly published article, Who I Am or Who You Make Me To Be, Adult Adoptees Imprisoned by Expectations and Intimate Meetings. So folks can read a little more of your [00:44:00] research there.

Anna Linde, MSc: That's correct. I don't celebrate that enough actually. Thank you for reminding us.

Haley Radke: Oh, absolutely. Thank you so much. I'm really excited to share this episode with listeners and for folks to pass it on to, people who've been impacted by childhood sexual abuse. I hope it's super helpful for them. Thank you, Anna.

Anna Linde, MSc: Thank you. It was very nice to be here and very nice that you take on such an important topic.

Haley Radke: I hope that was helpful for you to think through some of the impacts that this may have had on you. And I think, I don't think we've really talked about this in the episode, but I really have this belief that our brains let us know when we're ready to open the next thing to work on, if we [00:45:00] really examined our whole lives and all the traumatic things that have impacted us and we like, opened our brains up like a book and just saw everything all at once.

No, nobody can handle that. No human can handle. And looking back at all these like crazy things that have happened to them. But I think our brains do things, a couple things at a time so we can be safe. So only examine this if this feels like a safe time for you and you'll know. I think you'll know. I love that Anna is doing a workshop. There are some resources linked in the show notes for you and I, it's really neat that she's a sexologist and she's like a total expert in this area. Lots of trauma-informed therapists like that you may already be working with will also be skilled and able to help you through some of these things.

If you're [00:46:00] able to ask your therapist and open up that convo if they're not able to, I'm sure they can also refer you on to a specialist in that area. So get the professional support that you deserve. I know sometimes therapy can feel inaccessible and often it is for many folks. But there are so many amazing free resources therapy supports for adopted people experts in this field more and more.

Don't just be like, oh, I just can't, don't do that. Take good care of yourself. We need you to be here. And the more we work on these things, like we're just able to show up for ourselves more and our people more, and have a happier, healthier, joy-filled, meaningful life. And that's, [00:47:00] isn't that what it's all about? I don't know. That's my personal opinion.

Anyway, thank you for taking the time to listen and I really hope you had some good takeaways from this. And if you do know someone who's had, who's experienced childhood sexual abuse of some kind maybe share this episode with them if you think it might be helpful.

And it can be a resource hopefully. Thank you so much for listening. Let's talk again soon.

300 Haley’s Sisters

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/300

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Haley Radke: [00:00:00] This podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing stated on it, either by its hosts or any guests, is to be construed as psychological, medical, or legal advice.

You're listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. I'm Haley Radke. I didn't really think that I'd reach this milestone, but it's here. We have reached our 300th episode, and I've been thinking about this for months and was trying to decide what special interview, what special topic, what could I bring you to mark this milestone?

And I finally decided. that I wanted to celebrate with my sisters. I found my paternal side of my family 14 years ago, and I discovered I had three younger [00:01:00] siblings. So even though I'm technically the only adoptee on today's show, I thought that you'd enjoy this peek behind the curtain, exploring what it was like for my young sisters when they were told at age nine and 12 that they had a surprise older sister.

We deep dive what reunion was like for them, the ups, the downs, what things are like for us now. We also have a brother. He was 14 when we first met, and now he is a very busy young husband and father. And when I spoke about this recording with him, we had his blessing. And I think he shares some of the same sentiments that our sisters are going to share with us today.

Before we get started, I want to personally invite you to join our Patreon adoptee community today over on adopteeson.com/community, which helps support you and also the show to support more adoptees around the world. Oh my gosh. Come meet my sisters. Let's listen in.[00:02:00]

I'm so pleased to introduce to my listeners. My sisters, Amy and Sarah. Hello, girls.

Sarah: Hello.

Amy: Hello, everyone.

Haley Radke: I should say, okay, Amy. Who's Amy?

Amy: I am Amy, and Sarah and I have been told we sound really similar, so it might sound like we're the same person talking.

Haley Radke: Oh, no. Okay, and Sarah,

Sarah: Hi, this is me We do speak very similarly, but I think I don't know I think you'll be able to tell.

Haley Radke: I think so. I think so. That's so funny. I don't hear it maybe I should I don't know. I love people's voices. I'm obsessed with sound so you know, that's the reason for my job. Thanks for being on. You guys are not adopted, but you have some in depth expertise into my [00:03:00] adoption reunion situation, which I thought folks might be interested in to celebrate 300 episodes.

So welcome. Thanks for being brave. The only other relative who's been on the show. Is your mother.

Amy: Oh, yeah. That's right. I do remember when mom was on the show.

Haley Radke: Do you?

Amy: Yeah. I do. I remember. I listened to her episode.

Haley Radke: Sarah, did you listen?

Sarah: I think I listened, but it was forever ago. I don't remember at all. Like, how that went or what the conversation was. Zero memory.

Haley Radke: Yeah, it's been a long time. Speaking of, okay. So we've been in reunion for 14 years as of the time of this recording, which is pretty amazing. Sarah, you were nine. Amy, you were 12. And so we've already passed the mark where [00:04:00] I've been in your life more than not over the halfway point. Do you remember that it was that long? Do you have a clear delineation of before Haley and after Haley?

Amy: I do, for sure. It was, yeah, I think really already a pivotal time in my life, right? I was 12, almost a teenager, and so I have a really clear pre Haley, post Haley memory in my life. It was like, oh, and I have three siblings, not two. So yeah, it was a really big deal. Definitely a significant life event in my childhood.

Haley Radke: When I called our brother to tell him we were doing this, he said, yeah, what I remember is we sat down to dinner and all of a sudden there was a secret surprise sister. Sarah, do you remember that?

Sarah: I [00:05:00] absolutely remember that, and I think, I don't remember the dinner itself, but I vividly remember after dinner that mom or dad had been like, we have something to tell you, and I remember a long pause, and dad looking the most nervous I have probably ever seen him. He is a very clear speaker, he always has something to say, and it was a little of him trying to get the words out and fumbling almost before saying it, I very much remember that very clearly.

Amy: Oh my gosh, that's crazy you remember that so clearly. I don't remember the actual moment they told us.

Sarah: Yeah.

Amy: I actually don't, I remember after and my, I was feeling so surprised and I remember that, but your memory is so clear for [00:06:00] the fact that.

Sarah: Yeah it was such a thing of I don't have a lot of memories across all my life of Dad being frazzled. He was nervous and frazzled to tell us this news, and so I think it was so out of the ordinary that I just very much remember he was super nervous to have that conversation.

Haley Radke: So you don't remember that, Amy, but what do you remember about that time?

Amy: I remember I was feeling really upset after because as I don't know if your listeners would know but we grew up in a very Christian kind of environment and so for me having premarital sex was like the worst thing you could possibly do and so I was just shocked to hear that my dad had a baby outside of marriage when he was super young and [00:07:00] so that was really earth shattering for me as a 12 year old.

Haley Radke: Totally. It's like the person I thought I knew is no more, right? Cause you have this picture of who your parents are and yeah, totally shattering. Yeah. So I remember that your neighbor's dog was named Haley. And so I felt really offended by that because that was the first Haley in your life was a dog Haley but guess what I think that dog is dead so I win.

Sarah: That is correct.

Amy: And I don't even remember that as my first Haley just so you know, you're the first Haley I don't even think about the dog.

Sarah: I remember the dog sorry, Haley.

Haley Radke: Was it a boy dog or a girl dog?

Amy: It was a boy.

Sarah: It was a boy! And they, the only reason they had named the dog [00:08:00] Haley was because they let their eight year old daughter name the dog, who was like a year younger than me. So it was probably, she probably named him when she was like, six and she wanted the boy dog to be named Haley. So they were like, okay, I guess we're doing that.

Haley Radke: Oh my gosh, that's amazing. Okay, I remember sitting down to write you guys emails because that was our first communication. Do you remember emailing me? Do you remember anything that I sent you or what you sent back?

Amy: I remember all the emails. I was so excited to email you. It was the best thing. I remember checking my emails to see if Haley responded.

Oh my god!

Haley Radke: I'm showing Amy a Full, single space typed. This is the first email you sent me. It is a full page.

Amy: Oh my gosh.

Haley Radke: Yeah, [00:09:00] this has got to be 500 words.

Amy: Yeah, and so I remember feeling, I think, so special because here was this adult who, how old were you when we met? 27?

Haley Radke: Yeah, 27, 28. Yeah.

Amy: 27! And I just thought you were so cool, and you wanted to talk to me, and hear about my life, and you cared about who my friends were and what I like to do, and so I felt so special. And I remember we met you not that long before my 13th birthday, and you bought me this necklace.

Which I still have. It's very wait, I'll go get it.

Haley Radke: What? I don't remember.

Sarah: That was sweet.

Haley Radke: I don't remember that.

Amy: Yeah, you bought me this necklace.

Haley Radke: Oh my gosh.

Amy: And I remember you wrote me this note, and you were like, oh this lady hand makes this jewelry, and each piece is unique

Sarah: Aww!

Amy: And I think that's like us as humans because God makes each of us unique [00:10:00] and you wrote this to me and see I remember it so you I yeah, I just felt so special and so loved.

Haley Radke: Good job past Haley. Wow, that's pretty good.

Sarah: I love that. I think my experience was so different because I was so young, right? That as a nine year old, I don't have a very vivid before and after of you, and I really do not remember a lot from emails. I barely even remember emails. I could not tell you a single thing that either of us said.

I think at the beginning of reunion, I was just so excited. I was confused as to why there were big feelings about it, right? I was that young that [00:11:00] I did not understand what a complex situation it was. I was just like, yay! I have a bonus big sister! That's so exciting. And I think when we maybe did a first video call with you and Nick, it had been screenshotted or something.

Somehow I had a picture of you and I remember showing the picture to my friends and being like, guess what? I have a like older big sister. And that was it. And I know that there was a lot of intentionality on your end building relationship, right? And starting to write emails and us emailing back and forth, which really, I think I was just so ready and happy to accept and be like, yay! This is fantastic! And that was [00:12:00] really it. I don't remember a whole lot of early years whatsoever.

Haley Radke: I think that's really lovely for me to think about how for Isaiah, he doesn't know any different. You guys were always in our lives when he was born, and I love that. For you, Sarah, like you don't really remember before Haley too much.

It's not this big delineation, not that there's anything wrong with that, but that's a special thing for you being so young in it. And I do remember waiting for emails. getting back. Amy, I don't know if you remember this, but you did like a full photo tour of the house before we ever visited. Like I have a full, oh yeah, from the the house you lived in when we first met. I have a full photo tour.

Amy: Oh my gosh. I don't even remember that. Wow.

Haley Radke: Yep. Yep. So y'all spent time doing that. [00:13:00] There's a lot of pictures of the dog. Not dog Haley, but your dog. Do you remember? Do you remember when we first met? Did you feel like there was an instant connection? Or do you feel like it took more time to build. I remember Sarah basically sitting in my lap the whole weekend wanting to snuggle up, which was really cute.

Sarah: Yeah, I think I felt like there was an instant connection. And I was just like, great, this is my big sister. And that was really it. For, my small brain, that's as far as I got with any of the details, was just like, okay, this is my big sister, and I was super happy and excited about it.

Amy: I think for me, it was different because I had been so used to emailing with you, and I felt so connected to you over email, and then I met you in person, and all of a sudden, the sound of your voice is really new for me, and the way [00:14:00] you speak is really new for me, and so it was almost like a switch.

I was so excited to meet you, and then I was like, wait, this is different than the person I was emailing. It was like putting the two together, right? Not that you acted any differently, but I wasn't used to you as a full human. I had just had a pen pal almost.

Haley Radke: It's like love is blind. Like we met in the pods and you're talking and then you meet after and it's oh, it's a person with a body and they're not like I pictured. And

Amy: Yes, we had to go to phase two of the experiment.

Haley Radke: Yeah. Of the experiment.

Sarah: Yeah, so true. I think something I remember from meeting in person for the first time was that I was more awkward around Nick than I was with you. Because I think, as a young girl, it was so much easier to be comfortable around women than it was men and [00:15:00] so it definitely took more time to be like, okay, also she comes with a husband and that's great, but also who is he? What's, what's the vibe and what is our relationship gonna look like? That definitely took more time to build, I think, than it did with you.

Haley Radke: Yeah, okay. You probably won't remember this. Amy wrote in her email to me in the first one. She's I think Sarah's probably disappointed that you're already married because she would have liked to be a flower girl or something.

Sarah: I think that is so true. And Amy was right, exactly right on that.

Haley Radke: That's amazing. Okay, are there any similarities that you guys have noticed between either us or me and dad? Anything that's popped up [00:16:00] through the years?

Amy: I definitely notice. Your and dad's sense of humor is really similar, which I think was so fun for me, especially as a teenager, because our dad has always been the really funny one in the household.

And so to see a woman who was also really funny, it was like, oh wow, here's Haley with the same kind of sense of humor. So that was definitely a similarity I noticed between you and dad. And I also really remember loving the fact that we look pretty similar. Because I think mom and Sarah look pretty similar, but I had been the female in our house who took more on dad's side of the family.

And so I just remember being like, oh my gosh, I think my sister is so pretty and we look the same. That's so special when I met you, so that was really nice, I think, to feel like I had this similarity.

Haley Radke: I'm gonna get all [00:17:00] teary. Oh, I wasn't anticipating that. Sarah, what about you? Do you remember any similarities, or even now, like?

Sarah: I definitely do. Even just you and dad on paper, I think if dad was born when you were born, I think it's very possible he would have a podcast about something. Is that inherently? I think our whole family our all of us siblings are very confident public speakers and love reading and writing and are very well spoken and I think that all comes from dad and his, he is so much of that, and that we're all very passionate people.

Also I think that's a huge [00:18:00] similarity between all of us. But I definitely remember something from my childhood. Dad had gotten me a comic book. It was like a treasury of all of the Ziggy comics. I don't think it's a very well known comic series, but essentially, the vibe of the comics is that Ziggy is this kinda odd looking, funny guy, and the humor is all very sarcastic and skeptical, and that Dad loved those comics, and Mom did not.

These comics are horrible! They're depressing! And he had given a book of them to me, and I loved them, and thought they were so so fun and entertaining and I think that [00:19:00] we definitely share some of the like more sarcastic humor and more like deep skepticism like in being funny and I think that's definitely a similarity between us and dad also.

Haley Radke: Do you guys remember one time I came and I wrote little notes on everybody's mirrors or windows I had I on a white, with a whiteboard marker. And because I did it right before we left for the airport, it was like a secret kind of thing. I don't even know what I wrote. I don't know.

Just cutesy little notes, I'm sure. And y'all thought dad had done it because our writing is so similar. And he's a lefty. I don't understand how handwriting is genetic, but do you remember that?

Sarah: I absolutely remember that and being shocked to learn that it was you that [00:20:00] wrote the note on the board and just being like, wow, like, how is that even possible that your handwriting is so similar?

Haley Radke: It was just such a funny thing. I, yeah, I was like, what? I don't, I didn't understand that you guys would think it was him because why would he write, I don't know, the whiteboard marker. Okay. Can you think of any surprises for you in terms of our differences? I remember when I met you guys were vegetarian at the time.

And I know Dad had written that in an email, but I didn't act like that was for, I thought he was being joke around about it. I didn't understand that. No, you guys were in fact vegetarian. And it was a huge deal because when we visited. He made a steak when we came. Do you remember that?

Amy: I do remember that and it was a really big deal that dad was making steak. It was the talk of the town for a week before you guys came.

Haley Radke: Scandalous. [00:21:00]

Sarah: I think for me the biggest thing was knowing that you weren't Catholic.

Haley Radke: Oh.

Sarah: That was a huge deal because even though you were Christian, the vast majority, especially at that point in my life as a nine year old, we were in Catholic homeschool groups and very Catholic circles to the point where all of my best friends were Catholic and their families were Catholic and some of them had wayward older siblings who weren't Catholic anymore, right?

Which was a huge deal and I knew that at the time that was just a really big deal. So I remember, I think after maybe the first visit or something, having a conversation with mom about it. And me being [00:22:00] concerned about you because you weren't Catholic, which is so funny now, I'm like, oh boy, I'm very deep in that.

Haley Radke: I even worked at a church at the time I was, all in evangelical Christianity. You couldn't get more Christian. I'm like,

Sarah: 100 percent. But I think at some point you wore black nail polish and that's really concerning behavior.

Amy: I remember that. I remember the nail polish.

Haley Radke: What?

Amy: Yes, that was very edgy for us. We were like, whoa, she wears black nail polish.

Sarah: Yeah, we were not allowed to wear black nail polish which is so funny.

Haley Radke: Oh my gosh, I didn't know. That's good. I'm sure there was other scandalous things I did that I did not know were.

Amy: Also remember you had a streak in your hair, like you had a pink streak. [00:23:00] And that was also edgy. We were like, whoa, she dyes her hair a different color. But I was gonna say, the difference that I remember was, I think, maybe your first visit when we had family game night. And our family is very loud, there's lots of trash talking, there's lots of hype and excitement, and it is a big deal, we're very competitive.

And I remember, Haley, that you had to leave the table, because it was too much for you! And, I just re I was so surprised, because this was normal to me. This is how you play games. And so the fact that it was too much for you, I couldn't understand.

Haley Radke: Oh, I remember that. It was Monopoly. And it was so intense. And I am actually a very competitive person. I'm sure I've told you guys this game before, this story before, but I remember playing this game [00:24:00] with this other couple and it was, it's called Ticket to Ride. I'm sure lots of people have played Ticket to Ride and you have to build these pathways to other cities.

And there's only so many ways you can get to a city, and if you don't make it there's a big point penalty. And we were playing with this other couple, and the wife had a meltdown, because her husband took the last track that she needed to win the game. And she had a temper tantrum in front of us, and, we were in our early to mid twenties at the time, and I was just like, this is the most embarrassing thing I've ever witnessed.

I'm never gonna be this again. I cannot be this competitive. It is not that serious. I still remember it. It was yesterday. Anyway, so I really toned it back on the competitiveness. So when you guys were playing Monopoly like it was real money and you were gonna actually be like so wealthy when you [00:25:00] won this game, I was so torn because that is my nature is to be, but I couldn't trash talk my new sibling.

I wasn't going to get in there. Like it was like a very I can't alienate you in the beginning. And this is I can't, I've never seen a family act this way, which I know lots of families do. This is how game night is at my house now. Like my kids are just the same as super competitive as you guys were, are.

Yeah, I remember that. It was, I didn't know what to do. And I had left and I felt so awkward about it. It was bad. Yeah.

Amy: Oh, I could totally see that. You don't want to trash talk the new family that you're trying to win over in a way.

Haley Radke: The kids?

Sarah: Yeah.

Haley Radke: The kids? I was an adult. I'm gonna trash talk Sarah? No. But you guys were super into it. Into it. Oh my gosh. And now Monopoly is Isaiah's favorite game. And I [00:26:00] always win. And he still wants to play. I don't know. Can you give us the practical, like, how have we stayed connected over the years as you've grown into, young adulthood now.

Now you're, I don't know, can I even say young adults anymore? I don't think so. You're just adults.

Amy: I feel like I'm too old for young adults.

Haley Radke: Okay.

Sarah: Young adults.

Haley Radke: Sarah, you can be a young adult, but not Amy. Okay. Yeah. From emails to what have we done over the years to keep in touch?

Amy: I think it's definitely evolved over time. At the beginning it was emails and then I think there definitely were some years where we didn't end up talking as much and then it's evolved into more texting and more phone calls, and then as I've gotten even older, visits, either you visiting me, me visiting [00:27:00] you. So I would say it's changed because my life has changed so much since I was 12 when we met, right?

Sarah: Yeah, I think same for me, in terms of emails, even just having each other on Instagram and being able to respond to stories and seeing each other's, life updates in that way and I think we don't talk right now as much as we realistically could. We do intentional phone calls every now and then, but it's not a regular weekly communication between the two of us, but it also, to me, feels very much like my relationships with Amy and Daniel also in that, oh, it's the phase of life, and it's, there's so much love there, even without a weekly update and [00:28:00] check in, right? And I know, in the future, that will also evolve into a season of talking more, or less, or whatever that looks like.

But it feels like a pretty average sibling connection to me, where there's a big age gap. Like it just feels so normal of yeah, there's not constant communication. And also this is just kind of relationship when one of you is in school and the other one just graduated school and the other one is an adult with kids.

Haley Radke: With almost a teenager.

Sarah: Literally.

Haley Radke: Yeah. I do appreciate how y'all roast how old I am. That's good.

Amy: This is making me think. I'm almost the age that you were when we met. And that's crazy because in my head you were so old [00:29:00] and I do not feel that old right now.

Haley Radke: It doesn't help that I was married. That just makes you feel older anyway, right? It's oh, you're a real adult.

Amy: Fair enough.

Haley Radke: Even though I got married when I was 20, okay, let's go to the hard. Do you think of what's the most difficult thing that's been, has there been things difficult for us to navigate or any particularly super challenging times?

Amy: I think post reunion initially was pretty tough for me because as I said, I had to re know and discover about who my dad was and what my family was. I even remember going to summer camp that summer and one of the classic questions you're asked is, how many siblings do you have? And I was like, three, it used to be this easy question and then all of a sudden I felt stuck.

And so that was a really tough time and I think, I know the adults all went to therapy, you and Nick and mom and dad, the adults all went to [00:30:00] therapy and it would have been awesome in hindsight if I had been brought into the therapy because I think that I was really going through a rough time and that all of the dynamics and the different boundaries that were put in place with communication, which were super helpful for the adults, were really tough on me.

And so it would have been just so nice if, I had the one, piece of advice to give people in reunion. It's don't leave anyone out. Everyone is going to be affected by the reunion, and if you're doing therapy, everyone needs to be included.

Haley Radke: Oh, I love that. Yeah, that's a good one.

Sarah: I think for me, because I was so young, I don't think I went through any difficult periods with it, but I do remember there was an emotional weight around the rest of the family, and that for a certain amount of time [00:31:00] Mom and Dad were really going through it, and, were in therapy and were working through things, but that I had no idea what they were working through.

There was, like, I think, in many ways, the communication could have been better, and maybe, like Amy said, it realistically would have been helpful for me to also go to a therapist. And to have some maybe mediated conversations about what was happening. But I just remember in my head, you were my sister and that was really exciting and good but that mom and dad are really not okay and having a difficult time with something which, even as an adult, what's funny is that I'm like I have no idea what was going on. I [00:32:00] still don't know what the therapy, between all of you was and what was addressed, and I have no idea, and I definitely think it was really difficult to know that there was this huge emotional thing going on, that half of the family wasn't okay, and that I had no concept of what was happening, and I think there could have been some extra communication to dumb it down to a nine year old's level, almost, right?

Of I think I needed something to have a better idea of what was happening, to feel more secure, I think, because there definitely was a time period where I just knew the family did not feel stable.

Haley Radke: Amy, do you know what the adults were all fussing about?

Amy: I do, and I [00:33:00] did know at the time, which I think was tough almost in a way that I knew. I know, Sarah, you're like, oh, I wish I would have known. But see, I did know, and then that made me worried, I think, for the adults. So yeah, I was privy to what was going on, which was tough. It was just a tough situation. Reunion is hard. There's no easy, there's no easy answer or path or system.

Haley Radke: I'm trying to think about what you would have thought were the issues. Even in my mind, I'm like, what did we talk about in therapy? I know we talked about having rules of how many communications and it was very much like trying to right size their relationships into more normalcy. That's what I remember and I had [00:34:00] Isaiah, pretty soon into reunion and so it was like, oh, now I have a kid and it's what are you going to be in terms of what is grandparenting going to look like? And that's the stuff I remember. Sarah, is that what you remember, Amy?

Amy: Yeah, no, that's what I remember, and I think those rules surrounding communication were what was really hard on me, because, I mentioned earlier, you were this older person who was all of a sudden a support for me and interested in me, and I was a pretty shy kid it was a really big deal for me to have someone like you in my life.

And then, with the communication rules, it blocked off our relationship. I wasn't supposed to have private emails back and forth anymore between you and me. And it was like, all of a sudden, it's oh, here's the this person had been brought into my life and then all of a sudden was taken away.

And I remember sharing that. I did [00:35:00] share it. And was then told, explained why the rules were put in place, but I think what I got from that situation was then like, okay, what I need doesn't matter I'm not a priority here, we need to do this for the sake of the adults and the dynamic, and I got that but it was like a big heartbreak for me.

It was very painful, I think especially because the introduction of you into our lives had created a lot of pain and struggle for me internally and then I got used to it and got close to you and that was like, oh and upheaval again.

Haley Radke: That's really hard.

Amy: Yeah, and I have so much grace for the adults involved so much grace. Everyone was doing their best. It was a really hard situation everyone was doing what they thought was best right and as an adult, I totally understand that.

Haley Radke: Yeah. Aww. Little Amy.

Amy: I know, right? Poor little 12 year old Amy. Aww. [00:36:00] Yeah.

Haley Radke: Okay. Now you can grade me. Let's talk about, I disrupted the birth order. Daniel is no longer the oldest. I'm the oldest by so many years, apparently, like decades. For the listeners, you can grade me on big sister duties. As someone who grew up as an only child, how am I doing as a big sister?

Amy: You're doing great as a big sister. I absolutely love having you as a big sister. I often tell people how grateful I am that you came back into our lives because I missed out on you when you were younger and when I was younger and so the fact that I get to have you in my life is just incredible. You've been such a support to me and I think the age gap, which I know you love when I bring up, works out to be really cool for me because I have this person who does have more life experience than me and you can be a support for me.

And there was one particular time [00:37:00] about three, four years ago now that I went through a really bad breakup and Haley flew out to come see me. She flew out for the weekend and we spent an Airbnb weekend together and traveled around and the amount of support and love that I've gotten from you has just been so meaningful for me. I can't picture my life without you.

Haley Radke: That's so nice. Thank you. Sarah?

Sarah: I think you're doing great on older sister duties.

Haley Radke: Older sister.

Amy: You called yourself that. You can't complain.

Sarah: I'm so sorry, but you are older than me. I don't know.

Haley Radke: By so much. I know.

Amy: Sarah, don't double down.

Sarah: If it helps, I also call Amy my older sister. You are both older than me.

Haley Radke: Oh, she's very old. Yeah.

Amy: Ancient, one would say.

Sarah: Yeah, I think it is [00:38:00] also been so lovely for me to have you a part of our lives. There were definitely many years that I was not close with Amy. While we were living together, we really did not, grow closer until after high school and after we were both moving out and starting to make our own life choices, which is, I feel like, very common for siblings.

And I think that because you never lived with us, we always had that relationship. Of there was no underlying tension and fighting about who's cleaning the bathroom that week, which meant that you've always just been a supportive role and that you have always just been a comfortable big sister that I could talk about with different things [00:39:00] and that you were older was also a blessing to me, too.

There was one period when I was, I think it was the summer when I was in grade, maybe going into grade 8 or 9, that I had come to stay with you and Nick for a few weeks after

Haley Radke: I had surgery. And you were helping because I couldn't pick up the babies.

Sarah: Yeah, which to me was the best thing ever and it was so special for me to have a safe place outside of my family that was also my family.

Of this isn't my house where things are, there's different things going on always with the other siblings and mom and dad and it was such a safe haven for me to be able to have family who I loved [00:40:00] that, yeah, were able to, support me and be there for me if at that time, my mental health was so not good and I remember having so many beautiful conversations, and us hanging out, and having girl time, and so many, yeah, so many blessings in that.

Haley Radke: Okay, I'm fine. Everything's fine. What, God, what an honor. I, Okay.

Amy: Sorry I'm tearing up over here.

Haley Radke: I told y'all we're gonna keep it light and fluffy and I'm gonna keep it super professional. That's just, it's a sweet moment. That's nice. What's it like for you having me be a podcaster and talking about adoption for my job now.

Amy: I think it's fun. I'm like, oh, my sister has a podcast. She's big in the adoptee podcasting and adoptee world. [00:41:00] And sometimes I'll tell people to go look up your podcast. They'll be like, oh, send it to me. So I'll send them an episode and they'll listen, which is fun.

Haley Radke: You're helping get me downloads? All right.

Amy: Oh, yeah.

Haley Radke: That's pretty good.

Sarah: I think it is so wonderful and I am always so proud to talk about that and share that with people I think a lot of you know the very Christian spaces that we were in growing up, many of them very much, I heard a lot of messaging growing up that was, adoption is the answer, it prevents abortion, and therefore, it is fantastic.

And I've had conversations with many of my friends and different people in my life, and I'm always so happy to share that this is not a perfect solution. [00:42:00] This is not a perfect answer and that there are, many flaws and difficult things and lifelong impact to adoptees and I feel so proud as a sister that this is something that you went through that had a huge impact on you as a person and your life and so proud that you share your story with people and that you have created a beautiful space that you needed when you were 20, like I am so proud of that and really just think it's the best thing ever.

Haley Radke: Oh, thank you. Amy, have you have your thoughts on adoption changed over the years from either from me or listening to the show? I know you used to listen for a while. I don't know [00:43:00] if you ever listened, Sarah, but

Amy: I did. I used to listen as I was falling asleep.

Haley Radke: Happy to serve you to dreamland.

Amy: My thoughts on adoption have definitely changed over the years. When we first met, as Sarah said, I was just hearing the Christian messaging of adoption is this beautiful, good thing and everyone should do it. I even remember, like, when I was maybe 11 just before I met you I went through a phase where I wanted mom and dad to adopt a baby.

I was like, mom, you and dad should adopt a baby. Yeah I was fully bought in to adoption and so I think, I've really appreciated getting to hear all the complexities about adoption, and I often talk about people, talk to people about the grief that goes along with adoption, and I've felt that grief, right?

The grief of missing out on knowing you for so long, and so [00:44:00] my thoughts on adoption have definitely changed. I'm no longer yes, adoption is always good. And I see the grief and heartbreak on the side of the biological family and for the adoptee and all of the mental health issues that go along with the trauma of being relinquished at birth.

Haley Radke: So I guess I've radicalized everyone. Excellent. My master plan has all come into fruition.

Sarah: I think as a very young person, like I would say probably as a 16, 17 year old, from knowing your story and having limited understanding of everything I knew at that point that I was like, okay, adoption will never be an option for me.

That if I got pregnant, [00:45:00] I would never place my child up for adoption, which I think, obviously there's a lot of privilege that comes with that in that I know I have family who would support me, I have a lot of financial support, but I do think that's significant. And that, for me, I've known for a long time from having you a part of our lives that I was like, that would never be an option.

Haley Radke: Wow, thank you. Thank you guys for your candor. I really appreciate you being willing to share today. It's just been so lovely to hear all these memories and stories and I have tingly love feelings in my body. It's so nice. Do you have any last thoughts, advice for people, especially for people who have kids in reunion, like you shared some things today like I literally had not thought of, and I [00:46:00] feel silly that I didn't. Even those things are helpful advice, but any last thoughts that you want to share? With folks.

Amy: I think I would just reiterate what I said before that adoption really affects everyone. Reunion really affects everyone and I've had to process through my own grief and my own feelings and I think that if you are in reunion and you have kids.

Take everyone to therapy. I'm certainly biased because I'm in school to be a psychotherapist right now but family therapy is really helpful. So take your kids to therapy. It's gonna have an impact on them and I would say that it's gonna impact everyone differently. I know our brother was impacted very differently than I was and I was impacted very differently than Sarah was, and so everyone's gonna have really unique needs in this situation so spending time to, as best as possible, support each person in whatever they need is awesome.

Haley Radke: Thank you. Sarah?

Sarah: I think I would just say that, [00:47:00] are we, is it 14 years? 14 years out, I think we're all doing really well, and I know I am so grateful to have Haley a part of our lives and I just would give hope to anyone that's in the trenches of processing with a new family that there's so much hope and so much work went into that on all sides. But, that I'm so happy that you were brave enough to send that first text to Dad.

Amy: Sarah, you're so sweet. You're such a sweet person. I love your optimism and everything. That is so true.

Haley Radke: Aww. I have loved being a big sister and have worked really hard at it. And it's just been [00:48:00] truly such an honor to watch you both grow up and Daniel too.

And he's got his own little family now and to get to be there for The milestones, the breakups, the weddings, the babies it's just been just amazing. Yeah, thank you. Thank you both for sharing. I know it's not easy to be public but welcome, welcome to the public podcast.

Amy: Thank you for having us. It's an honor to get to be on your podcast. That's such a special thing.

Sarah: Yeah, absolutely. I'm so happy that we were able to do this and so happy to be able to share a little bit of our side of that journey.

Haley Radke: Aren't they amazing? Our brother is equally as amazing and we had this just really special conversation. [00:49:00] Even once we had finished recording, we stayed on and chatted about how powerful it was to unpack these things and like really have a good discussion about them. And we talked about some heavier topics as well, but I just thought, wow, like how, miraculous that after all these years and all the work that everyone put in that we've built this beautiful connection in all its variations.

So now I get to be an auntie. And I have a sister in law and I'm going to be gaining a brother in law shortly. And we're reaching all these milestones and I'm watching my sisters decide on their careers and pursue them. And it just, it's just so cool to be at this new stage of life together. And if we hadn't put the work [00:50:00] in, I don't know.

Where we'd be, we wouldn't be connected. So I do hope that this does bring you hope, like Sarah said. I hope that this celebratory conversation was a happy moment that you could share in our joy. And God, I really, it was really special to bring them to you. And I hope you enjoyed this conversation as much as I did.

And I told Amy and Sarah when we were done, I'm like, even if this never went to air, this was just like the best. Here it is for you. Thank you for celebrating 300 episodes with us. And I know I've been telling you about this. I'm working on this brand new project. It is, it's all happening, and you'll be hearing more soon, but there's so many good things happening to be excited about, and advancing adoptee [00:51:00] advocacy and family preservation and lots of good stuff.

So thank you for listening. Thank you for celebrating 300 episodes with me. I still can't really believe it. That's a lot of episodes. That's a lot of talking. So, I'll just say goodnight, Amy. Hopefully this helped you fall asleep and. There's humbling moments, right? It was overall so sweet, but it's come on, you know what?

Tell me in the comments, does anyone else fall asleep to our conversations? I have my sleep podcast too. So it is a compliment. I hope you laughed with us and enjoyed, thank you so much for listening. Let's talk again soon.

299 Dr. Abby Hasberry

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/299

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Haley Radke: [00:00:00] This podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing stated on it, either by its hosts or any guests, is to be construed as psychological, medical, or legal advice.

You're listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. I'm Haley Radke. I am so excited to welcome Dr. Abby Hasberry back to the show today. We are celebrating her brand new book, Adopting Privilege, a Memoir of Reinventing My Adoptee Narrative. Abby is a therapist, a scholar, an adoptee, and a birth mother.

We get into all of it, coercion in adoption, parenting after placing a child for adoption, reunion from both sides. We even talk about sororities. Abby also addresses why so many adoptees go on to place a child for [00:01:00] adoption themselves. Before we get started, I wanna personally invite you to join our Patreon adoptee community today over on adoptees on.com/community, which helps support you and also the show to support more adoptees around the world.

We wrap up with some recommended resources, including sharing how you can join us for a book club event with Dr. Abby Hasberry. And links to everything we'll be talking about today are on the website adopteeson.Com. Let's listen in.

I am so pleased to welcome back to Adoptees On, Dr. Abby Hasberry. Hi Abby.

Dr. Abby Hasberry: Hello. Thank you for having me.

Haley Radke: Yeah, last, we had, we talked a couple of years ago. We did a whole healing series episode. We talked a lot about therapy and race, and I'm sure those things are still absolutely front of mind for you, [00:02:00] of course, but would you share a little more of your personal story with us today?

Dr. Abby Hasberry: Sure. My personal story. So I was adopted in 1971 in Baltimore, transracially adopted. The really interesting thing that I like to share often is that when I was adopted, my parents had planned on adopting another black child, but in 1972, the National Association of Black Social Workers put out a position statement against transracial adoption.

And so when they went back in 1973 to start the process again, they were denied based on that. And so we talk a lot about that National Association of Black Social Workers position statement, but I'm actually someone who was personally affected by that decision, and I ended up being the only person of color in my family.

My parents had three biological kids, and so a lot of my story is around the experiences of transracial adoption, the experiences of just of racism in the United States, the experiences of racism and just identity development in [00:03:00] other countries as well, because I've lived all over the place many states, many countries.

And so I've had to learn to heal and to adapt and to really understand people and myself. And so a lot of that comes into my story, but it also comes into kind of the healing in my practice as a therapist and a lot of what I do in identity development as well. And as a former educator, so lots and lots of things that happened to me over my life as a personal person and as a career person that have all been really affected by my adoption.

I think the biggest thing really is around my identity development, though, as a black woman, and just as an adoptee as well, and thinking about the traumas that happened to me over the years, and also how I kind of pushed through them and I've really become a student of understanding how my body and my brain transform trauma, and it kind of transformed who I was.

And so [00:04:00] thinking about anxiety, thinking about like depression, thinking about some of those protective things that we do, we put on those protective layers and really kind of becoming a student of why these things have happened and how I've developed these parts of me, but also how they've really served me And so I can appreciate those things and not be like, you know, really upset about you know my trauma reactions my response would say like this thing really served me when I was younger now I need to be able to figure out a way to let it know that I'm okay and I'm in charge and heal that and kind of move on and so my story is a little bit about that as well.

Haley Radke: Your story is super unique to me, in many ways, one of which is, all the different places you lived growing up, you've referenced, like, I've lived in many countries, like, absolutely. Can you talk about, as a therapist now, like, looking back on that? Well, how do you think that impacted you as an adopted person? Having so many different [00:05:00] transitions and, like, trying to figure out where home is, what's that sort of meant to you?

Dr. Abby Hasberry: Yeah, and as an introvert, it really affected me just moving around from place to place and trying to figure out who I was, where did I fit in? How do I navigate this space in these friendships and this school, there is a lot of just trying to figure out lots of parts of me. I think that one of the things that really, really kind of shaped who I was was spending early years overseas. And not thinking about my race and even my adoption status, but really thinking of myself as an American and as an expat.

It allowed me to develop young as just a human and as a being, and then to think about the other parts of my identity, those intersections later in life. I think that that helped kind of shape who I am and how I look at the world. And really just, I don't know, it, it, it shaped how I relate to other people and feeling relatable to [00:06:00] other people as well, because I've been so many places and had to navigate so many different spaces.

Haley Radke: I, I wondered about like identity development when it felt like to me, you got trained to really try and know who you were because you were the, you were the same thing from moving to place to place versus all your surroundings. I don't know. Do you think that's true? Like, I always, I lived basically the same place for, you know, 17 years.

I've lived in the same, you know, let's say four block radius for 20 years. The idea of moving is actually quite scary for me to move to a different country or place or even a different town than I live in. You know, I don't know. What do you think?

Dr. Abby Hasberry: Yeah, absolutely. I absolutely believe that. And one of the things that I [00:07:00] remember my mom saying when I got a little bit older, not not so much in my elementary years, but middle school when high school and when we would move.

And then even I told myself as I moved as an adult is every time I moved, I got to reinvent myself and decide what parts of me I wanted to keep and what parts of me I wanted to leave in that old life. And so it really was a lot of thought about who I am and how I'm showing up in spaces and who I want to be and how I want other people to see me.

I thought about that a lot and had the opportunity to kind of mold that and be intentional even as a child, because I'm moving to this whole new place where no one knows me and how do I want to dress? How do I want to show up? I don't have to be who I was a year ago. They didn't know those that person at all.

So yeah, it absolutely I've trained it's a really great way to kind of explain the process of learning to just shape my identity intentionally.

Haley Radke: Well, you know what? I love that for you because it sounded like a benefit in the end. It feels scary for me to think about what I would have done in those circumstances. So that's really [00:08:00] interesting.

Dr. Abby Hasberry: Yeah, don't get me wrong. It was definitely scary at times. One of the things I don't think I've put in my book, I'm not sure if I did or not, but I remember in ninth grade, moving to a new school and spending the very first lunch period crying in the phone booth, talking to my mom because I didn't know anyone.

So like, it wasn't, it wasn't like this whole sunshines and rainbows and roses moving. There were definitely hard times,

Haley Radke: indeed,

Dr. Abby Hasberry: and really some hard effects on me.

Haley Radke: It's kind of like how we talk about, you know, the trauma in adoption. Oh, but adoptees are so resilient and right. It's like let's look for any ray of sunshine in there I guess.

Dr. Abby Hasberry: Yes.

Haley Radke: So, one of the pieces in your story is that you placed a child for adoption as a teenager. And I'm curious what your thoughts are as someone who holds two identities in the adoption [00:09:00] constellation. Because I know so many adoptees who have gone on to be first mothers, birth mothers, bio mothers, mothers lost, natural mothers, whatever term you like to use. And I'm curious your thoughts on that. I was recently speaking to someone else who holds those both identities as you do. And she was like, I think being adopted is like a perfect pipeline to becoming a birth mother. Do you think that's the case?

Dr. Abby Hasberry: Yes. Yeah, absolutely. I about a year ago, I recorded a video where this term birth mother grooming in my head came and just like, that's what I feel like I went through is really birth mother grooming. I was groomed to be a birth mother from being an adoptee, from being a transracial adoptee.

And so there's all this race stuff that kind of played into my mom's vision of who she thought I should be as a black person. And when I was teenage, black pregnant girl. It was like all of her stereotypes were crashing together and a fear of that and what that would mean for [00:10:00] me and for her, as well as all of the coercive practices that happen and all of those things. I absolutely see now that like I was really groomed to be a birth mom.

Haley Radke: It's so upsetting. And yet like when you talk about it's like, yeah, we can see that.

Dr. Abby Hasberry: Yeah.

Haley Radke: A hundred percent. Right? That was a choice available to your parents to add to their family. Your parents, you talk about this a little bit in the book, how they were going to adopt from Vietnam.

Cause that like, that's like peak time, right? In the early seventies the Vietnam war and, and we're talking about, you know, all of these half American babies we'll say. And so, God, what's that called? Operation Baby Lift? When they, like, that plain girl, that's terrible. Look up that history if you guys aren't familiar with it.

Can you talk a little bit more about that? When, from your mother experience, you shared, like, you'd like them placed in a black [00:11:00] family and that didn't ultimately happen. And so part of that grooming, I think, goes into that.

Dr. Abby Hasberry: Yeah, absolutely. That grooming of these are all these families you can choose from.

And it's like picking out a new house. You get to think about all the things that you would want in space. And, you know, how much money do they have? What are their vacations like? It's like, You get to develop this family, this dream family, and especially as an adoptee who already spent so much of my life in my head thinking about that dream family and that ghost kingdom life, it was just like, I'm now thinking about this ghost kingdom for my son.

And so it was kind of like dreaming about everything that I would want for him. The thing I didn't understand though, is that once I signed that paperwork, everything that we agreed upon, like it was a handshake agreement, there was nothing written, everything we agreed upon. None of it was legal or binding.

And so they did end up placing him with a completely different family, with a completely different dynamic. And specifically, the thing that was most hurtful is that they placed him transracially. [00:12:00] And I wanted him to have at least one Black parent and at least one Black sibling. And he had none of that.

And that was, and I, they knew from our conversations that that was the most important thing for me. And even though at 16 and 17, when it was, when these conversations were taking place, I was still definitely very much in the fog. I was very aware of those things that needed to happen and were important to me. But yeah, they did not honor that at all.

Haley Radke: I'm so sorry. You know, like, it's like I gave you everything and you couldn't even, you couldn't even respect like

Dr. Abby Hasberry: The one thing.

Haley Radke: The one thing. Oh my gosh.

Dr. Abby Hasberry: Yeah.

Haley Radke: Another thing that I've heard you talk about, you talk about a little bit in the book, not a little bit, quite a bit in the book, is your idea that this is a temporary situation and you weren't given any other outs.

Like people were like, oh, we'll help you, you know, you can, [00:13:00] whatever you do will support you. But like, here's the op, there's the one option. Here's the one choice.

Dr. Abby Hasberry: Yes.

Haley Radke: Yeah, you know, because a lot of people don't actually understand all the coercion and manipulation that happens for mothers. So can you share a little bit about that?

Dr. Abby Hasberry: Yeah, that was something that I did not realize until I was like a fully formed adult for all of my years until probably, I don't know, five, 10 years ago. I really believe that I made this choice. I believe that everything was laid out in front of me and I made a decision based on what I had at that moment.

Still felt regret, still felt shame and guilt about it, but really believed that I had made the choice. As a parent now, as an adult and going back and looking and even getting back memories that I had blocked out afterward, I really understand that there was no choice there. There was no this is how you'll go to college.

This is how you're going to continue to run track. This is where the baby will go. This is where we'll have a crib in a month and a half, [00:14:00] because when I started these conversations I had him a month and a half later. And so there was none of that just pathway that they gave me. My parents, when we talked about college told me, you know, this is what it will look like.

This is where you'll get money. This is what financial aid is. This is where you'll live. This is how you'll go back and forth for holidays. If you want to go to the school that's a couple hours away, you can come back as often as you want. If you want to go to a school that's in another state, you don't have that much money for plane tickets, so this is how often you'll be able to come home.

Whole plan. When we talked about having this, my son and raising him, it was, if you want to do it, we'll support you. That was the plan. There was no, you know, I know we have a month and a half. This is how we're going to get clothes. What does breastfeeding look like? What are, you know, nursing options bottle feeding options?

Where are we going to get a crib? Where, what about child care in September when you go back to school I had him in, in June, none of those discussions were had. And so it was a choice with no information. And it really was coercion because they would say, we will support you. [00:15:00] But then they would tell me, these are all these families.

These are all these have all the things they have. These are the plans they have for your son. This is the lessons he'll be able to take and the experiences, the vacations. And so I understood what his plan looked like. If he were to go to someone else. But there was no plan if he were to stay with me,

Haley Radke: I'm sorry. I mean, it's just, it's still happening to this day. That's ultimately, it's still happening to this day for mothers who are in a temporary situation and feel like they have no bridging help. I've spent the last month talking to a lot of mothers and, you know, like some of them are like, by the time, like three years later, I was like fully resourced and in fact had more resources than my child's adoptive parents.

It's just like, it's so temporary. Like how do we help women parent who really would like to parent? [00:16:00] It's just so angering.

Dr. Abby Hasberry: Yeah, and the ironic thing for me is that the family that I chose, not the one that he went to, but the family that I chose were a doctor and lawyer, and my husband and I are doctor, PhD, but, and doctor, and he's a lawyer, and so, and we have all of the black history, and he has, he would have had black siblings and all the things that I wanted him, the plan I had laid out for him that he didn't get is now my home, and so, like, it's, it's maddening. Heartbreaking. All of the things.

Haley Radke: Yeah. I know you trained in IFS in the last year. I saw it on Facebook.

Dr. Abby Hasberry: Yeah.

Haley Radke: And so how has that helped you personally to like, look back at, you know, say 16 year old Abby within you and just be like, girl, like you didn't know.

Dr. Abby Hasberry: Yeah. Yeah. It's definitely helped to really give myself more grace and understand why I did certain things and how these protective parts came. It's really helped me to [00:17:00] see kind of the, the parts of me that were really hurt and how they're still in the hurt and how, like, what, when I get kind of triggered, I hate the word triggered, but when I get triggered by something, when those, those hurt parts of me get triggered by something, my reactive

part of me that comes out and reacts. I can understand it and give it a little more grace and also it really helps me to kind of bring it back down much more quickly because I can recognize that this is a reaction as a protective part of the hurt part of me. And so my reaction isn't the anger or whatever the feeling is, it really is pain and hurt.

It's so I can really kind of go to that pain and hurt and not to the reaction. IFS has definitely helped me see that in me, but more importantly, it's helped me see that in my patients and my clients and help them to kind of see that in themselves.

Haley Radke: Hmm. Can we sort of go back in time a little bit to when you had your second child? How was parenting after placing [00:18:00] for you? Because for a lot of folks, right, it brings all the trauma right to the surface again. And, and that's really difficult.

Dr. Abby Hasberry: Yeah. I think that part of my protective ability or disability depends on how you look at it is that I pushed the memories away. And so having my son did not bring up a whole lot of that.

The thing that really kind of brought it up was when he was around 5 and started saying he wanted an older brother and I was just like, well, what in the world? Like, what kid asks for an older brother specifically? When he has one out there. And what do I say to this? And so I think that was the first time that it really, like, struck me to my core that, like, this is a thing that's affecting not only me, but him.

But I, because I pushed away all of the other memories, it really, it did not play the part that I've often heard it does in other first parents.

Haley Radke: Okay, wait, how I want to ask this. I don't know. I'm going to ask it like how [00:19:00] and when did you decide to tell your other children that they in fact did have an older brother?

Dr. Abby Hasberry: I did not tell them until I found him because I didn't want them to feel what I felt, which is that like that longing that, you know, the questioning the, where is he? Is he okay? I didn't want them to have that those same anxious feelings that I had my entire life. And so it wasn't until I was sure that I'd found him that I told them.

Haley Radke: Yeah. Do you think that like looking back, are you like, that was a good choice to protect them?

Dr. Abby Hasberry: I think so. Yes.

Haley Radke: Yeah.

Dr. Abby Hasberry: Because for my, for my son, I think it was, he kind of somehow knew like when I, when we did finally tell him it wasn't. He didn't have a huge reaction. It was like, cause I brought up, you know, how you always ask for an older brother and like, you do have one.

And so, and they're so incredibly similar down to their hobbies. And that I think that it was the right thing to do for them. And especially for my [00:20:00] youngest, because she was four when we found him. And so she really hasn't known life. Without him. I think it's been hardest for her as he's, my son has come in and out of our life and has had to deal with his own adoption trauma and deciding whether or not to have contact or not.

I think it's been hardest for her because she didn't know life without him. So when he leaves, it feels like a hole in a way that's different from my other two.

Haley Radke: Yeah. Okay, so you've experienced reunion in different ways.

Dr. Abby Hasberry: So many ways.

Haley Radke: So many ways. So, okay, I have a question as someone who was you know, sorry listeners, I'm going to repeat a story I've told 20 times on the show. I presented with a friend. We're both adoptees, both rejected from our mothers in reunion after a period of time of knowing them. And so during this presentation, we were attacked by a birth [00:21:00] mom in the room. She was very angry. Very upset with the things we were sharing, insinuating that, you know, me and my co presenter were somehow just like re sharing things that just super weren't helpful and all those things.

And like, we only saw the adoptee side. Fair enough. That's my experience. So as someone who's experienced reunion from both sides, and there you go, we have an adoptee that comes in and out and what feels safe to them and those things. What do you see in, like, what are some things that are really helpful in a reunion? What are some things that are not helpful? I mean, I know it's different for everybody, like, do you see things adoptees are doing, like, I'm gonna put in quotations, like, wrong in reunions? Because I felt very, like, slimed for the things that I was saying.

Dr. Abby Hasberry: [00:22:00] I think it's a personal experience, and so, as long as you're kind of living in what your own truth is, I don't.

And you're really giving grace and understanding to everyone else in that situation. I don't think that there's a right or wrong. It's what our capacity is and how we are able to handle it. My, my birth mother has not been able to, has, has rejected me and I just see it as her still living in her pain and her trauma and it's not a reflection of me.

I try to not make it a reflection of her although there are days when it hurts and so I'm not happy with her, but overall I just try to see, see and recognize that. She's still living in, in all the pain of it as well, and so she may never be able to open up to me as far as my son kind of going in and out and saying, at times he can't handle the contact, he doesn't want anything to do with us and specifically with me, I just, I treat it as just any parent, like I'm his parent and so it's my job to kind of be the eye of the hurricane and whatever he's doing around me is whatever he needs to do at that moment.[00:23:00]

My job is. Just stay steady and be here. If he wants to be here, then great. If he doesn't, then that's fine as well. It just, you just center yourself in it and see what you need. I know that I have the capacity to be that for him. I don't know what my capacity would ever be for my birth mother. If she reached out again, I don't know if I'd want to have contact with her or not. I would just play it by ear and see what happens when it happens, if it ever happens.

Haley Radke: Thank you. So as someone who searched, like, a long time ago, and then you did, like, DNA testing and stuff, did you feel some sort of way about searching for your son? And, like, what that would look like?

Dr. Abby Hasberry: Yeah, I definitely hoped he would have done it. Like, when he turned 18, it was, like, waiting for a while. Like, for a couple months after he turned 18, I was, like, checking the mail and hoping like every time the phone rang that that this would be the [00:24:00] time. He didn't and I learned later that boys often don't search in the same way that girls do they aren't as like interested and so then when he turned 21 I decided to start looking again because I thought at that point brain development was happening more college was probably near ending and all of the things were his life would be a little more stable and settled and so that's when I decided to go out on my own and start looking for him.

I really wanted to think about when he would feel supported and mature enough and be stable enough in order for me to kind of come in and disrupt his world a little bit and say, here I am.

Haley Radke: And then what did you say to your youngest daughter when he was taking breaks?

Dr. Abby Hasberry: Just that. Just that he just needed like to step away and it was a lot for him to handle and that we would as a family support that and be here when and if he wanted to come back.

Haley Radke: Yeah. Thank [00:25:00] you I mean, I just I know people must have similar situations happening in their households and it's so confusing to navigate like what's the right thing to do, you know? Are you, are you comfortable talking about your adoptive mom a little bit? Yeah.

Dr. Abby Hasberry: Yes. Absolutely.

Haley Radke: You share in your, in your new book that she passed in 2023 after a battle with dementia and your relationship with her also sort of went up and down. And so how did you navigate those years with her with dementia and then following her passing, like how did you take care of yourself in the grieving process?

Dr. Abby Hasberry: Yeah, it's dementia's horrible. It is a long, long grieving process because it starts off with just kind of memory things and just like repeating of stories in a conversation and then just deteriorates over the years and the way that I kind of, [00:26:00] I guess, put up my boundaries in order to be okay and really honored the capacity that I had to deal with it was to only deal with it with her specifically when I knew I was strong.

There were times when I knew I couldn't, it was just too hard. And towards the end, I did not see her very often. And I think, not I think, I know that part of that was me wanting to preserve her memory as the person that she was. The strong kind of force very opinionated, very in your face person that she was.

I wanted to remember her as that and not the shell that she kind of turned into a different person, relapsed almost into her own childhood. And that was not only my intention, but also because she had had a relative who had dementia, who lived with her at some point in childhood, and she had spoken about how, if that ever happened to her, that's not how she wanted to be remembered.

She talked about us, like, don't have me come live in your house, put me somewhere else. I [00:27:00] don't want you guys to deal with what I did. And she also, I refer to my mom as an education snob. She loved everything to do with education and that was one of the things she was most proud about herself is how intelligent she was as well.

And so thinking about her losing her memories and losing that intelligence, I wanted to honor who she wanted to be. And who she was and how she wanted to be remembered as well. So I did put up a lot of boundaries towards the end, which felt like losing her over and over again.

Haley Radke: In your book, you seem to be so like, I'll call it tender with the balance of how you talk about your parents.

You give them a lot of grace, you share a lot of very difficult things, and you really, it seems to me like you're really trying to balance them out as like a full human while saying the things that happened. And did you, were you like? [00:28:00] Nervous about writing any of those things like you share some really deeply personal things all together in your memoir

Dr. Abby Hasberry: yeah,

Haley Radke: I think a lot of people will be surprised by how candid you get and how did you know what to share and like do you still feel like the adoptee loyalty to like sort of I don't know. I'm all say hedge like it's not but you know what? I mean?

Dr. Abby Hasberry: Yeah, I kind of decided that anything that I'm healed from, and I'm writing from a healing place, I guess it's more of what I want to say, is anything that I'm writing from in a healed place, I would write about it. And then anything that was my story, that was just me, that I experienced, I'm allowed to write about.

I don't want to write about other people's stories or interpret things, but anything that was my story, I was going to write about. I also believed, I heard the quote, I feel like it was Dolly Parton, but I could be making this up, that if they wanted me to write better about them, they should have treated me better.

And so that was kind of the honesty from which I wrote, is that [00:29:00] like these things happened and if you didn't want me to talk about it. Don't do it. But at the same time, that balance that you talk about, I was very intentional about that because I like me. I think I turned out pretty well and I have to give them credit for the parts of that that they did.

And so I, while there are things that they did absolutely wrong, there are things that they did absolutely right. And I wanted to highlight both parts of that and show that humans are flawed and can do horrible things, but they can also be amazing people that do awesome things. And so that balance was important to me to not just point fingers at the horrible things that happen, but also to say, like, I am who I am because of the great things, the experiences, the travel, the ability to really understand my identity, the ability to be critical, a critical thinker and think about race and the way that that shows up in the world. All of that is because of my parents. And so I didn't, I wanted to give them that grace and give them that balance while also saying there are some really horrible things that happen in adoption. [00:30:00]

Haley Radke: You talked about your mom as an educator and, and that's how you spent a lot of your career. You identify as a lifelong learner. How many PhDs you have now?

What's your certificate collection at for all your extra training? So those are such special things about you that, I mean, I haven't collected a bunch of like degrees, but I also identify as like a lifelong learner. Like I want, I'm just desperate to know more. And so I'm curious what parts of those do you think are, can you parse out nature versus nurture?

Or like. Core Abby, like I desire more knowledge and it seems to me that you live your life in such a way that you desire to give back in a huge way.

Dr. Abby Hasberry: Yeah, a little bit of both. I said before my mom was an education snob. And so I think it was kind of really pressed into my brain that education is the way to grow, to expand your knowledge, to expand your experience, your [00:31:00] abilities, all of that.

So I think that pursuing it in that way was definitely part of my mom, part of my dad, because he also had a PhD. And so I wouldn't have even really known about a PhD in high school and thinking about going that path if I didn't have a father who was who had a PhD. And so I always that was had been one of my goals my entire life.

However, the way that I've kind of weaved together my education, my experiences and my like work life and all of those things are definitely inherently me. And I can say that because when I started to really develop my career and who I was before my mom passed, she couldn't understand what I did when I would talk to her about my job.

She was just like, I don't understand what you do. And this is before dementia . She was just like, like, I don't understand how you weaved all these things together to make this path and what you're doing with your life. And so I know that that was the way that I've used my experiences, my education and all of it together to [00:32:00] make this strange career that I'm in now was definitely me to the core.

Haley Radke: That's, sorry, I'm confused. Like, she didn't know what you did. Okay.

Dr. Abby Hasberry: She's like, why is that a job? I remember her asking me one. Why are people paying you to do these things? I don't, I don't know.

Haley Radke: Okay, this is like, must be post principal, because she knew what that was.

Dr. Abby Hasberry: Yeah, she did know what that was, but even that one, she was like, why would anyone want to do that job as a teacher? She asked me that.

Haley Radke: Really?

Dr. Abby Hasberry: Why would you want to be a principal? Yeah, she did ask me that at one point.

Haley Radke: Oh, that's so interesting, because you're just like a very effective leader and you model that really well in all the things that I've observed you doing. I wonder why she couldn't see herself ever doing something like that.

Dr. Abby Hasberry: Yeah, she was a teacher to her heart and my dad as well. He was a PhD, but he wanted to teach only so he never did [00:33:00] any research or published. And so that whole tenure thing never happened for him because they were both both my parents were just teachers and not just, but were teachers to their core and did not want to do any of the other parts of education. They really believed in just in educating. So the other jobs, she was just like, why would you ever want to do any of that?

Haley Radke: Curious. Okay, something else I'm curious, and I don't know if it's just because I'm Canadian. I don't know. When you talked about being in a sorority, I was like, okay, I know this is a big thing in the states. Maybe it is here. I just did not experience it personally. Okay, what is it like being in a sorority? Like, how has that shaped you?

Dr. Abby Hasberry: Yeah, so I'm in an Alpha Kappa Alpha sorority incorporated, and it is a historically black sorority founded in 1908. And so it's very different. The black fraternities and sororities are very different in that they're so [00:34:00] incredibly community based, so incredibly part of your identity.

It's not something you do in college and then you're done with it. It's not, it's, it is kind of how, who you are and how you live. And so being able to be a part of a black sorority as a transracial adoptee. It was almost a sign of like, I made it. Like I, I found my identity. I've been accepted in a way that I don't know that I could have gotten in any other place.

Because I'm part of legacies of history of sorority and sisterhood and all of the things that have to do with being in a black sorority and it really is part of your identity.

Haley Radke: Okay. And to this day. To this day you identify, you say the name of sorority. Are there still like things you're involved with?

Dr. Abby Hasberry: Yeah, so with sororities you get to do graduate chapter after you graduate from college. And so you it is a lifelong [00:35:00] commitment. There are lifelong service it is a service organization, so there are things that you can do lifelong. This Saturday actually, there's a chapter here in Baltimore, and we will be going for a walk together in the mall.

There are service opportunities where you can do things in the community and it is a week to week. Monthly meeting, but week to week activities of service around, around the community.

Haley Radke: And I imagine you would mentor younger women that are part of it then, too, in, in some capacity, whether formal or informal?

Dr. Abby Hasberry: Yeah, there, there could be formal and informal and even formal ways of mentoring in high school, back, going back to high school and mentoring as a grown person. So, yes.

Haley Radke: Okay. Okay. I'm so, I'm so new to, I mean, listen, things I knew about sororities, movies, there's parties, sometimes girls dress the same. So anyway, that's really cool to [00:36:00] learn about the other community involvement. And so it sounds like that also shaped a part of like a passions to give back and those kinds of things.

Dr. Abby Hasberry: Yes, absolutely.

Haley Radke: Okay. Okay. So, you don't look like a grandma, but you are one. And so

Dr. Abby Hasberry: Thank you.

Haley Radke: For real. For real. I'm like, you look so young. Can you talk about, you talked about legacy with sorority, but how about starting a new legacy for your biological family? And now that you have grandchildren, like what is, what does it feel like to be a grandparent? To a, like a biologically related, like, oh my goodness.

Dr. Abby Hasberry: And I'm, I'm grandparent to biologically related children and some who are not. And so I have two granddaughters who are not biologically related, but my son is their dad and has been their dad, one since she was a little [00:37:00] less, a little less than a year old and the other since she was about four. So yeah, it's, it's, it's interesting to have a family dynamic where the biology of it all hasn't made a difference in who is father and who is grandparent. And so, yes, I have three that I'm biologically related to and two that I'm not right now.

Haley Radke: Okay.

Dr. Abby Hasberry: And grandparenting is the most amazing experience ever. It's just like a different kind of love and that kind of love that I only have to do for 45 minutes at a time if I want to, and I can give them back which is really amazing thing to o especially as you get older and exhausted. But no, it is, it's been my joy and like, I, yeah, I can't. Yeah, I would recommend.

Haley Radke: Okay. Highly recommend being a grandparent.

Dr. Abby Hasberry: Highly, highly. Yes.

Haley Radke: Okay. Okay. I just wonder if you ever spend time reflecting on that. Like my generations are going to be together now. [00:38:00]

Dr. Abby Hasberry: Yes. Yeah. Especially with my, like with the reunion and my oldest daughter has gotten to know her cousins, her biological cousins.

That has been really interesting. She's been the one who's really connected with them the most, probably because she's here and also they're closest to her age. But yeah, it's It's very interesting to and kind of a gift for them to be able to see people who look like them and I didn't get that until I had my son that was the first time they have each other they have me and now they have this whole other side of the family that they get to see and not only get to see but get to see things about them.

My son can play any instrument by ear completely, like, musically inclined, and to find out that my biological family were all musicians. Most of them sing, some actually might have a couple uncles who were pretty famous musicians, and so it was like, those kinds of things just clicked. Like, okay, I see where we come from and why we have these things, and they get to experience it [00:39:00] at an early age. Which I didn't get to do until I was an adult.

Haley Radke: That's such a, that's such a neat part of reunion, I agree. Like the extended sort of family building and another thing we've talked about a little bit more recently on the show, but just the fact that even if you're denied a reunion with a biological parent, whether it's because you found them deceased or they've refused a connection with you.

There's there's possibly other family members that you can build connections to or your children can build connections to, to fill in some of those stories that as an adopted person, we may feel that we're missing.

Dr. Abby Hasberry: Yes, absolutely. And I've experienced that as my mom. It rejected me and my biological dad died decades before I actually found the family.

And so not being able to have connection with either one of them, but being able to connect to the children, my siblings, to my nieces and nephews, grandnieces [00:40:00] and nephews, all of that has, has filled in a lot of what I missed. But I always say, though, you can never go back again. And so I recently spent some time with my siblings at a sibling reunion.

And it was amazing. And the connection was just like right there. But then there were conversations about lived experiences that I just could not connect to, just did not have that experience with them and felt like an outsider. Like I'm in this place where they accept me as their sibling, but they're having these, remember these conversations.

At one point they were singing a song that they sang together growing up. And none of that was part of my experience. And so while reunion brings back a lot of it. It also reminds you of often of how much you've lost.

Haley Radke: Right. So relate to that. So much even like being in the house and it's like, oh yeah, all the, all the childhood family pictures.

Yeah. I am definitely not in there. I am not in there. [00:41:00] Yeah. Oh my goodness. Thank you so much for sharing. I, my last question for you before we do recommended resources. So your book is called Adopting Privilege.

Dr. Abby Hasberry: Yes.

Haley Radke: When did you discover who holds the privileges, who holds the advantages, the rights in adoption?

Dr. Abby Hasberry: In adoption, specifically, I would definitely say in relinquishment as a birth mother in that relinquishment time that, yeah, just definitely that was an experience of coercion and just understanding that the agency worker and the hopeful adoptive parents, their needs were definitely much more prioritized than mine, even in the delivery room and giving birth.

And then in my experience being taken off the delivery floor and being put on just a regular, regular surgical floor to disconnect me [00:42:00] from the birth experience. Yeah, definitely in that relinquishment, I think that I recognize privilege very, very young as a transracial adoptee, recognize, recognize.

Economic privilege and racial privilege, very, very young, but the adopting privilege of it, I really recognize as a birth parent.

Haley Radke: Thank you. Your new book, Adopting Privilege, A Memoir of Reinventing My Adoptee Narrative. I don't say this to everybody, Abby. I read it immediately when you sent it to me. I read it in the same day, the same evening I sat there and I was like, go away, go away.

I'm reading. I read on my laptop. It was so good. You put so much of you into it. I literally, I literally cried. I felt so proud of your bravery in the things that you share. I said earlier that you were more candid than I expected, and I [00:43:00] think that's because I think going in, I thought I was going to meet a little bit more therapist.

Dr. Hasberry with and that's there. That's absolutely there. Your expertise and, and you have these like, amazing, listen, dear Abby letters. Come on. How, you're the Abby I'd like to write, to write to. The reflections, like all of those things are there. But to get to know you in such a personal way, it just felt, I felt kind of lucky, frankly, when I was reading it, and I just was like, this book is going to be so helpful.

And as someone who's a leader in the community and shows that spirit of like generosity of sharing wisdom in your story, like to like give all of it is just felt really special. So thank you for writing it. And I know people are just going to love reading it and getting to know you at a more deeper level.

Dr. Abby Hasberry: Thank you.

Haley Radke: Frankly, how is it to write some of this? [00:44:00] Like, were you like, I don't know if I'm going to share this all.

Dr. Abby Hasberry: Yeah, I definitely had a moment of that when I started writing and my mentor for my PhD program, Dr. Clark, who was like the most amazing woman ever. She said, just write it all and you can take out whatever you want later.

And so that was what I did. And I took out nothing, but she, she just gave me the freedom to just pour it all out by saying that. And like saying, if it, if you've had pause in the end, you can take it out. You don't have to share all of it, but write it all. And so, yeah, it, it was hard. It was very many years.

And there were even times when I would write it and come back like a year later. And I don't feel that way anymore. I've got to rewrite this section because a new memory came up or you know, just I've learned some more or just I've done some more healing and work. And I recognize that that that thing that I believe wasn't really true.

And it's not true to who I am right now, at least. And so it was very much a [00:45:00] labor of love and the labor of healing and an intense process. Don't regret any of it though.

Haley Radke: Okay, good. Okay, good. And you write, you write, like, the scathing critiques of the adoption system that, and like, you, you really go there.

So for anyone who's like, Oh, I don't like. Is she going to be hesitant about that? Like, no, no, no, you just say all the real things. Like, really? So I'm really, I loved it.

Dr. Abby Hasberry: From my story.

Haley Radke: Yeah. Sorry. Who are you hoping that who you're hoping to read it besides us?

Dr. Abby Hasberry: Um definitely adoptees. Yeah.

Haley Radke: Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Abby Hasberry: And birth parents, but therapists, educators, parents in general, just people because people who have been victims of, of sexual abuse, people who have been victims of microaggressions, like literally everybody, I think anyone can get something from the story because, again, I really didn't hold back very much.

So, yeah, I really feel like I want [00:46:00] everyone to read it. But I definitely think educators, therapists, people who are in the community, social workers, adoption agency people just to get another, another narrative added to the story.

Haley Radke: Absolutely. I agree. I think this will be a great book that we'll be able to recommend to our friends who don't even have a connection to adoption because it's so, I love that it's really story driven and, and, and so it's so easily readable, but you're saying all the things that we need to hear. So.

Dr. Abby Hasberry: Thank you.

Haley Radke: Yeah. Well done. Well done you. What do you want to recommend to us?

Dr. Abby Hasberry: One of the things that Rebecca Wellington's, Who Is A Worthy Mother, absolutely, it's one of the books that I've recommended to some of my clients and Relinquished as well, both of those books I recommend, I recommend to my clients.

And the other thing that I've been kind of reading and thinking about for healing is The Seven Circles, which is a based on indigenous healing spaces, but thinking about the seven circles [00:47:00] of wellness and the ways that we show up in those places, our safe space, our, our food, our movement, religion, all of those seven circles of just how we really find balance and find ourselves in the world.

Haley Radke: Amazing. We will put links to all of those books in the show notes. Thank you so much, Abby. It's just such an honor to get to talk with you again. Where can we find your book and follow along with you and connect with you online?

Dr. Abby Hasberry: Easiest is just adoptingprivilege. com. And then all of my links are there.

I'm on Instagram as well, but you can get to all of that from adoptingprivilege. com.

Haley Radke: Perfect. We will also link to your, your socials in the show notes. Congratulations on your book launch. So excited to cheer you on.

Dr. Abby Hasberry: Thank you.

Haley Radke: I am so excited that we get to read [00:48:00] Abby's book with her in April. I hope you will join us. We are going to have info in the show notes for you. And if you're wondering about any of our upcoming live events, like maybe you're listening to this in 2028. And you're like, I know this book club is well past you can go to adopteeson.com/calendar and see any of our upcoming live events. We usually host them on zoom and Abby will be joining us. We'll talk all about her memoir, full spoilers, which we tried to avoid during this interview. And I hope you will come. There is a seven day free trial. Patreon now has activated gift subscriptions.

So if you want to join and you want to bring your bestie adoptee friend along, you can gift Patreon subscriptions now, which is really amazing. We've asked Patreon to do that for years and years and years. And so now they [00:49:00] finally have implemented that. And if you want a scholarship, there's also a link on the website adopteeson.com that you can click through and apply. And yeah, that's, I'm really looking forward to that. We also have our monthly Ask an Adoptee Therapist events, which are some of my favorite things that we do. And you're welcome to submit questions for our therapists at adopteeson.com/ask. Thank you so much for listening.

Let's talk again [00:50:00] soon.

298 Kit Myers

Transcript

Full shownotes: https://www.adopteeson.com/listen/298

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Haley Radke: [00:00:00] This podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Nothing stated on it, either by its hosts or any guests, is to be construed as psychological, medical, or legal advice.

You are listening to Adoptees On, the podcast where adoptees discuss the adoption experience. I'm Haley Radke. I have been waiting several years to have today's guest on, and when better than to celebrate his brand new book. Professor and critical adoption scholar Kit Myers is with us to talk about his new book, The Violence of Love, Race, Family, and Adoption in the United States.

Kit is an adoptee from Hong Kong, and he shares some of his personal story, including a recent reunion he got to experience a couple of months ago. We also dive into culture camps and what happened when society tried to quote unquote [00:01:00] destigmatize adoption for the sake of adoptive parents. Before we get started, I want to personally invite you to join our Patreon adoptee community today over on adopteeson.com/community, which helps support you and also the show to support more adoptees around the world. We wrap up with some recommended resources, and as always, links to everything we'll be talking about today are on the website, adopteeson. com. Let's listen in.

I am so pleased to welcome to Adoptees On, Kit Myers. Hi, Kit.

Kit Myers: Hi, Haley, it's so great to meet you and be on your podcast.

Haley Radke: I'm so excited. I've learned under you through several different conference events and now getting to read your book, which has a lot of the culmination of your work and research, it's just been really amazing for me so I'm really excited. But first, can you share a little bit of your story with [00:02:00] us?

Kit Myers: , Yeah thank you for those kind words. I guess the shorter version is that I'm adopted from Hong Kong. I was adopted right before I turned four and I grew up, I mean, I was, I was relinquished and, I actually have a lot of I have my original birth certificate and has my, my mother's name on it and had her address where she lived at the time.

And I stayed at multiple sort of institutions, orphanages in Hong Kong. Four different places. And then eventually I was adopted to the United States and I grew up in Oregon. With my family my mom and my dad and, and my brother who's, who's not adopted and we're actually really close in age he's six months, six months older than me, butit was, it was a small town in Oregon and between Portland and Salem.

And it's a town about 15, 000 people or maybe even less when it, when I was actually first adopted 12, 000 or [00:03:00] so when I was adopted. So as a rule sort of setting, we lived on a, was it two and a half acres. And had a lot of miniature animals growing up, so we had a just a farm of miniature pigs, and a couple miniature donkeys, and a pony and rabbits, cats, dogs.

Haley Radke: Oh my god, you grew up with a pony Kit.

Kit Myers: We did, , I got to ride the pony for, , I forgot when the pony passed away, but , we definitely had pony rides and oh we had a couple miniature goats as well so it was It was kind of like this fun childhood out in the country living next to a creek and a overgrown Christmas tree farm and , so so that part was was quite wonderful. Of course, as you can imagine, , it was kind of, sort of racially isolating, so that part was difficult, but I did, , grow up with a loving family, and then when I grew up, I didn't really have exposure to [00:04:00] much about adoption, , I did go to therapy when I was younger to kind of talk through some of the stuff that comes up with adoption, but I didn't, I kind of was quite dismissive of a lot of that stuff until, I got to University of Oregon where I met a lot of other students of color and started learning about more histories about people of color in the United States learned a little bit more about adoption and started doing some research on it.

And that's where I kind of did, what, a research paper on Holt, which is based out of Eugene, Oregon, and did a paper on First Person Plural, which is, , pretty well known documentary by Deann Borshay Liem. That, that kind of propelled me into graduate school, where I started studying it, and then here I am at UC Merced, .

I'm an ethnic studies professor, and I teach classes on [00:05:00] primarily how race is socially constructed, but I also in my classes I talk about gender and class and sexuality and, and disability to think through the law and media and literature and, all of those sort of things. But that's what I teach and then, , my research is, is primarily focused on adoption.

Haley Radke: Well, I I'm so glad you you sort of answered a question I had because a lot of adoptees we get critiqued It's like oh, well, you're critical about adoption because you had a bad experience and you're like no like I had a happy childhood To what I understand you're still in a good relationship with your adoptive parents to this day. Is that right?

Kit Myers: .

We, I talked to him, on a weekly basis and , I mean, I love them dearly and they, they love me a lot. I think it was, it's been hard to fully share what my research [00:06:00] has been on, but , in this last year I've, I've been more open and transparent about that, and they've been supportive.

I mean, I think there's still, there's still some stuff in the book that they haven't had like full exposure to, but, but we've started to have more conversations about that. .

Haley Radke: Well, as you study these things, it's like, oh my gosh, I can't unsee it now.

And we didn't know what we didn't know. And now we know. So . Oh my goodness. Okay. So they have they, they've not read your book fully yet.

Kit Myers: No, no. But my mom was probably the first one to pre order it.

Haley Radke: Okay. Good job, Mom.

Kit Myers: So I think they'll, they'll probably take a look at it. She did ask if she was going to be able to understand anything in the book, and I think, , she'll, , they'll be able to understand the, the main points. And I, I think that, really, I tried to write the book for the broadest audience possible. And [00:07:00] in terms of those who are connected to adoption. So the idea was to try to invite everyone into this sort of conversation and to try to write in a way that wasn't going to judge people for maybe what they've done or how they felt or what their experiences have been, but to really sort of say that we have all these feelings and intentions, but what has If we take a, a sort of a larger picture view, how has adoption been constructed and shaped and despite, , people's intentions, what have the outcomes been and why has adoption been needed in the first place historically?

Haley Radke: You write a lot about summer camp, like culture camp, heritage camp, they've been called different things. And I [00:08:00] interviewed SunAh Laybourn last year or the year before, I can't remember. But in the recent past years, y'all can listen to that episode. And her book was the first one where I was like, she, she writes about this, like this fact that it's like these camps are for the white adoptive parents to get together and feel good about their choice.

It's, I mean, listen, I'm, that's super paraphrasing. That's what I took from it. And I was like, whoa. And you really kind of go into that too, about the reason really why they exist. Can you talk a little bit about camps, what they meant to you and how you see them?

Kit Myers: Yeah I mean, and SunAh is, great, so I'm, glad, I mean, the list of people who you've interviewed for this podcast is just amazing, and she is, , one of the countless amazing people who've been on your podcast.

So, I got involved in [00:09:00] 2006, and the summer camp that I worked for used to be a culture camp, and I'm purposely keeping vague the name of the camp because it's a part of it was it's been a part of an article that I published and I mentioned it in the book as well. But because it's a part of research, I try to create anonymity for the people who are interviewed.

So anyway, it used to be a culture camp, but it changed that, , the director who is a Korean adoptee, he came in and felt like the camp, which is a Korean culture camp was serving adoptees from children from probably like 14 different countries and so it felt odd that it was a Korean culture camp But but there was all of these kids who are attending. And so he felt like we should really shift it and, sort of think about adoptee identity and adoption issues and, race, and racism.

And so [00:10:00] that's kind of that was my first exposure to summer camps, I think really at all in terms of these overnight camps. I mean, on the West Coast, there's just, there's not as strong of summer camp culture on the West Coast as there is, I think, in the Midwest and on the East Coast. So I'd never been to any summer camp let alone one for adoptees.

And so that was just an amazing experience right after graduating college and meeting that was the first time meeting a ton of adoptees for the first time in my life. And it was, it was a big group of us and we traveled to different states and hosted a summer camp for mostly transnational adoptees, but but also a few domestic transracial adoptees and and then eventually when I am in grad school and I I took this critical pedagogy class, which is a class that's thinking about how do we teach.

And so for the class, [00:11:00] I talked about the summer camp as a space of teaching. And through the interviews that I did, talking with some of the adult camp counselors who are all adoptees it became clear that, that the camps were the, primary driver of the camps was less about learning birth culture.

So the camps were kind of emerged in first in the, in the eighties, like the first one was in the eighties and it was a Korean culture camp. And it really was this attempt to go past the color evasiveness. That a lot of adoption agencies and a lot of adoptive parents practice, right, is where, , we want to have our child assimilate into a family and be fully a part of the family, but to do so, we're going to kind of erase their, their culture.

And so the summer camp was an attempt to, it's this early multiculturalism, right, where we're going to embrace and celebrate culture. And so this [00:12:00] is supposed to be. , it's coming from this really loving space or, or place and and agencies are starting to promote this, right? And they're, they're either hosting their own summer camps or they are recommending these summer camps as a way to preserve or cultivate lost heritage, right?

And of course they're popular for adoptees. What's very interesting is that,in my experience, , kids, some kids would, a lot of kids are excited to come, but there's a few who are like, kicking and screaming, like, I don't want to go, I don't want to go, I don't want to go, because this is going to highlight my difference from my family and I don't want to be around all these other adoptees and they feel weird and this is gonna just highlight my differences. But once the children who come who were against it, I think there there is this and one of the the interviewees said it [00:13:00] is this like invisible need for adoptees To it is something where if you don't have it, you don't realize that it's something so special right to meet other adoptees to be able to share your experiences to be able to share in a safe environment where you're not going to be judged where there could be people who could say, I've felt that same same way too, or I've experienced that, or someone has said that to me as well, or I've had that thought, or I've had that fear, and so there's so much to the summer camp and the birth culture camp in terms of trying to provide this space, this educational space for your child, right, and they were really run by adoptive parents, right, and adoptive parents are trying to provide this for their children, and this. They've been told that culture is the primary thing that they've lost, that their kids have lost, and so this is a way to fill that [00:14:00] void.

And so I think it's coming from a good place, but in doing research on the camps, , what I found is a lot of them are focusing on culture while not really attending to the other complexities of adoption and primarily this notion of where does culture come from? Well, it comes from not just the birth nation, but it comes from the birth parents.

And, and so a lot of these camps were not really bringing up birth parents because that's like a whole nother level, right? So I talk about how birth culture is kind of containable, right? You can sort of contain the dangers that exist in talking about birth culture, but it's really difficult to contain the potential, , and I don't want to say it's, it's guaranteed danger, but that's the perceived. That's the perception, right? Is that it would be a can of worms to talk about birth parents because then that threatens adoptive parents place [00:15:00] as parents, right?

Haley Radke: Sure. Let's get a bunch of kids together who've had that stripped away and see if they can learn it from each other while eating , sorry, kimchi will say it's Korean adoptee camp, , like, okay. But can I read you a quote from your book about community? Because that part, I was like, yes, they got that at least, right?

Haley Radke: This is from your conclusion. You say, adoptees who meet a community or communities of other adoptees develop a more complex and sophisticated understanding of adoption experiences, ideologies and practices, and they are given space to hold complex feelings about adoption. And like, what a gift to give those young people.

Kit Myers: And I think I think that adoptive parents were, that's what they were aiming for. I think in, and my memory is so bad, but I, so I don't know if that quote was talking about the birth culture [00:16:00] camps or if it was talking about the camp that I worked at.

Haley Radke: No, no, it's talking about it in general and probably more towards adults, but I'm picturing this as like, how can we get this out of?

Kit Myers: Yeah absolutely. I mean, I think it really is about when we're talking about. This sort of stuff. It's so weighted with a range of experiences. I mean, y'all are coming into this space thinking, oh we have this commonality and we do, but there is a range of experiences and feelings.

And , how do we hold that diversity and acknowledge sort of the the difficult things that people are saying as valid and , what do we do to contend with that?

Haley Radke: I remember one of the sessions I went to at an ASAC conference and you were presenting Adoptee from Hong Kong and then with a room full of scholars [00:17:00] learning about adoption from China and y'all were talking about like how much research and, all the academics who've been studying adoption from Korea for all these years and now making this new space for researching critical adoption studies, whether it's from your country or just overall, you, have such a broad historical research in your book that you present all kinds of things that you're talking about, but I really love that.

I still think about it. I wish I could have found my notes. I'm just, like, so mad about that. That's okay. But I was, I was wondering how it is for you being an adoptee from Hong Kong. Can you talk about some of the numbers, like how prolific the international adoption is from Hong Kong? And then china closed its adoption program last year. Does that affect adoption from Hong Kong as well? And also I [00:18:00] noted that you shared this in another interview because of British colonization of Hong Kong. A lot of your paperwork is also in English. So small benefit, I guess, that you could read some of your paperwork. I don't know. I'm always looking for like a sliver of good in these things, but anyway, go ahead.

Kit Myers: I mean, and it's funny because I went back to Hong Kong for the first time in 2013. And that's when I kind of started searching. Before that, I definitely never, I'm pretty sure I did not identify as like a Chinese adoptee or a Hong Kong adoptee 2013. This, I mean, I'm 31 years old. I'm, , I've graduated.

I finished my dissertation, graduated from grad school. And at that time, I don't think I really identified as a Chinese or Hong Kong adoptee. I identified mostly as a Asian American adoptee and 2015 I went back and went back with a [00:19:00] group of like 30 Hong Kong adoptees, right, who I just kind of met within the last two years.

There's a small group in the Bay Area and, and then there's this larger group in the UK. Because there was a Hong Kong adoption project in the UK during the late fifties, early sixties, and they adopted 100 children from Hong Kong. And there was this study that was done in the 2000s, and that study reunited many of them.

I mean, I think it was like 80 of them or so were found and kind of reunited, and they did a study on, on this group of adoptees. And so, through that group, the Hong Kong adoptee group, the, , they all went back to Hong Kong. And Amanda Baden and I, we, we did some surveys and interviews of some of the folks who went on that trip.

And it was [00:20:00] probably after that trip where I started to identify more as a Hong Kong adoptee. And so, it's very interesting how that is evolved. There aren't that many of us in the United States. And this is just a guess from what I've, , the very little that, I've found, it's like 500 to 700 total.

Haley Radke: Whoa!

Kit Myers: . So like, , maybe 20 a year or, or less. And in the UK, , there was that sort of huge wave of 100 people. I mean, relative because it's like, , Hong Kong is, it's a large city. But , the amount of adoptions coming out of Hong Kong were not as significant as some of these other countries and so , it's it's not a big group and , I didn't identify as a Hong Kong adoptee. So for a long time, there's a lot of people who just assumed I was a Korean adoptee and then they'd find out much later that I was not so.

Haley Radke: Are there [00:21:00] any implications of China ending international adoption for Hong Kong is that still.

Kit Myers: Yeah so I've tried to look into that and from what I can tell it's it hasn't impacted Hong Kong yet. That adoptions from Hong Kong are still available, but again, it's not like there were there was a ton.

Haley Radke: Is it similar to China where it's like older kids kids with like severe special needs in some way, medical or otherwise?

Kit Myers: That's, that's exactly the situation. . Primarily.

Haley Radke: To get a little bit personal, are you okay talking about your birth search and some of what you found? Is that okay?

Kit Myers: Well, I guess I could start with,first finding one of my first cousins on 23andMe. So that was quite a shock. I was very sort of hesitant to do it. But eventually I did, and a first cousin showed up, , right away. Which I know is very [00:22:00] rare. And, , the other thing, actually, I'm going to backtrack, because I remember your other question or comment. And it was about sort of British colonialism.

Haley Radke: Yes.

Kit Myers: And , and so that's that's a very fortuitous, it's like really one of the only times that I'm grateful that a place that's been colonized, because it's certainly helped me, right? So, , all my documents are in English, and then the family that I've met, , they all speak English. And I just posted on social media that I did this review of Dr.Sara Docan-Morgan's book, In Reunion.

Haley Radke: Oh, it's so good.

Kit Myers: , it's a fantastic book, and it's a great resource for anyone who's thinking about it or in the midst of reunion and, but a lot of the book is about language and, the difficulties of overcoming that language gap. And, so I've been very fortunate for the people who I've met to, to speak English.

And so, , I met first cousin [00:23:00] and, and what's kind of wild is that he , it took two years for him to reach back out to me. And so, but eventually he does and he, lived , I live in Merced, California. And he, interestingly, lived in Berkeley, California, which is just two hours away.

So that was really great to kind of connect with him, and eventually, we meet a couple times what, like three times now in person? And so it's been wonderful to meet him. And then I got introduced to two other first cousins through zoom. And they're both in Canada.

Haley Radke: So is this all on your mother's side?

Kit Myers: , it's all on her side. And their parents are siblings of my mother. But, but I mean, I think the difficult part of this is that none of their parents, and there's three other siblings, she had, three siblings, none, of their parents knew where she was. I mean, eventually all of the cousins tell their parents, it [00:24:00] takes a while, but they did eventually all tell, and there was valid reasons for kind of waiting.

And so that they didn't know where she was, and the cousins actually didn't even know that she existed, which kind of says that she was a family secret by the time that the cousins were old enough to understand anything. And so, , like I said, I was looking for her since 2013.

And I went back in 2015, I did a little bit more searching. During this time I have a friend in Hong Kong and he's helping me look up government records and, and whatnot and we're, we're finding bits and pieces of information and, then I have a, I had a trip planned for June of this last year and so I reach out to another friend who's helped a lot of adoptees actually find and reconnect with their birth family. And so the two of them started doing some work in early last year. And then eventually they found out [00:25:00] it's kind of a long story, but, they found out that my mom had passed away in 1995. So a long time ago, I mean, she's, she was 42 years old and I found out about it like literally the day that my book was due back to the editor and I still had quite a bit of work to do that last day to finish things up and it was also, , a week before I turned 42.

And so, , that hit pretty hard, and it felt, it felt really bizarre. It felt very weird because we actually didn't know 100 percent if it was true. Because there's just like a small chance that another person with the same name and the same birthday existed. Because we couldn't cross, there wasn't a third point to triangulate if this was actually her.

And so the, idea of ambiguous loss felt very salient to me for the next few months. And I [00:26:00] wrote, I wrote a post about it, about adoptee temporality and how adoptees can experience time differently. And this being kind of an example of that to find out that you're the person who gave birth to you died nearly 20 years ago is kind of a shock.

So the other side of this is that from her death certificate, I found out that she had married through common law, this other person, and through a wild turn of events, I was able to connect with that person. to find him and connect with him, and he does not speak much English, but my friends help translate.

And so he was able to tell me a little bit about her and her life and her situation, which her situation was very difficult, especially after I was born. But she [00:27:00] had a developmental disability and then,I don't know if it was, before I was conceived, or if it only happened afterwards, but she it appears that she, went into sex work for quite a long time afterwards, and then she developed cervical cancer.

I don't know, I would assume maybe because of it, and that's how she passed at such a young age. And so, this gentleman Mr. Wong, , he helped take care of her in her last couple years. And so that, , brought me some comfort that even though she was not really connected with her family anymore, that there was someone who cared for her and treated her as a human.

Haley Radke: I'm sorry, Kit. That's hard. Did, did he know about you?

Kit Myers: He did, . She, mentioned me and the, I have two half siblings. , one of the things, one of the gifts he gave me was telling me that literally, , the day before she died, or [00:28:00] maybe a couple days before she passed away, one of the last things she wanted to do was to go back to the orphanage that she thought that all three of us were at.

And I think that my two younger siblings might have still been there. But, , I'd been adopted at that point. But she wanted to try to see us. One last time. So , he knew about us and and that's how I found out that I had two half siblings. I didn't know about that before this summer. That's kind of the third part of the story of searching for them and, and finding one of 'em.

And then meeting, I went back to Hong Kong in November and, got to meet him, the younger brother and his family. That was just another,thing that is a part of the adoption journey.

Haley Radke: Was that exciting or difficult? And difficult?

Kit Myers: It was everything. It was, I was very anxious about it. I was anxious because I've, I was raised by, , my family [00:29:00] was middle class, was solidly middle class. And now here I am a professor and my, spouse is a professor. And so, and we have two kids. And so I feel very lucky in that regards, right? In terms of what I'm doing and how my life is right now.

And so, , I think I was anxious about what their lives were like. And it turns out that he was adopted, but he was adopted in Hong Kong. And his father is Chinese from Hong Kong, and his mother is actually Welsh. And so they're actually a very, a quite wealthy family, and they adopted him when he was also around four years old.

And when they adopted him, they knew he had a, a developmental disability as well. And so, , I met him, and he's a wonderful person. He just has a very, a bright spirit, and he's got a good sense of humor. He, [00:30:00] they seem to have a good relationship. He with his parents, and his siblings, and they with him.

And so, , I mean, there's a lot of, like I said, I felt everything. And it was great to meet them. And , they spoke English. My half sibling actually only speaks English. And so , I'm hoping to stay connected,the plan is to stay connected. So when I go back I can,visit again. But it was a wonderful visit.

Haley Radke: Thank you for sharing that with us. It's so, I'm assuming, it must be so strange to be living these things in your personal life and , if we're so intimately familiar with grief and yes, all the struggles of search or reunion or if people want to do that or not. And then to be doing the work that you do and, and having to sort of like separate, like draw this line and be like, okay, this is the personal and now this is we're going to critique time and like, I [00:31:00] don't know, it's just so complicated because you're in your book.

I want to ask you some questions about that before we run out of time. You, you talk about this adoption as an act of violence and, and you're talking about your brother and I'm like, well, in the circumstances, like, hopefully he's getting all the care he needs. And like, it sounds like this was like a pretty good setup.

And like, but, but the violence of,your mother's situation in which she felt , or was forced to take y'all to an orphanage at some point. God, it's so complicated.

Kit Myers: Yeah it is. And, I talk about this in my class all the time, , that this sort of the theories that, , people come up with, they're all coming from, I mean, some theory is developed from quote unquote sort of statistical data, but the theory that I'm more interested in is coming from lived [00:32:00] experiences and from people who are sharing their stories and, those sort of things. And so everything that's in the book is less based on numbers and more based on what have people experienced and felt. And, so, , it is as much as I had actually.

I try not to talk about myself in the book, and I was kind of encouraged to put myself, a little bit more of myself in the book. And so I kind of begrudgingly did it, but

Haley Radke: I wanted more, by the way. That's just because I'm nosy. I'm just, .

Kit Myers: But I do think it's helpful. I think it's helpful for readers to understand where the author's coming from. And of course, it's not because I'm, trying to be, , quote unquote objective. But it is difficult to, to write about your own experience, and I think part of it is because even though I think, a lot of my experiences can be relatable, there's other parts that I think are, highly [00:33:00] unrelatable with regards to adoption.

The fact that I have my birth certificate, when even most, , domestic adoptees don't have access to that, , , transnational adoptees, we understand like that's just like that record. Nobody, no official government entity has that and has the key to it, right? But here in the United States, of course, that's for, that exists for a lot of people, right? A lot of adoptees.

Haley Radke: Yes.

Kit Myers: And so, , I mean, I think that's one reason why I was, I was hesitant. But, at the same time, my experiences has, , obviously they've informed how I've thought about this, concept or this framework of the violence of love.

Because I kept thinking, like, , we hear about love, love, love and adoption. Adoption is love. And then, on the other hand, we've heard, , adoption is trauma and is violent and, and these things, and I felt [00:34:00] both, I felt both were true, not, not in the sense that it's just this relativism and that we can't have this sort of analytical perspective on it, and that we must hold them both as sort of equal things, But that they, that they actually, they are both true, and how do we contend with that?

And, and to go deeper, like, how does actually, how do these things inform each other? Right? Because the, the love that people talk about in adoption, , cannot exist without, the violence of separation, without the violence of that, that condition, that sort of creates the conditions of poverty, or patriarchy, or prisons.

, deportation of settler colonialism, , all of these things produce the condition in which families or single mothers or parents [00:35:00] get placed in this position where they feel like they must relinquish. They are coerced into relinquishing or they are, they have relinquishment, sort of this involuntary , relinquishment. And so you have this, like, aspect that oftentimes, I mean, as most of your listeners know, this aspect that isn't really validated and discussed. And it's really the idea of violence in adoption is that the child was going to experience sort of this guaranteed death. And so that adoption saves the child from violence.

Haley Radke: I was going to ask you about the word, the rescue word, like it's so, oh God, it's so frustrating.

Okay. Let me go here. Okay. This is from page 117. You say, well, rescue in quotation marks. Connotes removal from imminent danger. I contend that adoption as rescue marks originating countries [00:36:00] as spaces of inevitable death, adopting countries are spatially and temporally marked as an opposite and better future that enable freedom from violence and full as opposed to bare life.LOL. Let's take you to America.

Kit Myers: , that's, that's, that's the, too long didn't read sort of version is what a lot of people know as this sort of white saviourism. And, but that passage is really trying to explain a little bit more in detail what's going on in terms of the construction of race and the construction of space. Right? How race and space are tied together.

Because often times we think of race attached to bodies and not to space. And So in these circumstances, when we think about the inner city, when we think about the reservation, when we think about Asian countries, whether it's [00:37:00] China or Korea, Vietnam. Or, , Latin America, Ethiopia, right? We're talking about these spaces that are unable to take care of their children.

And in many cases, like, if you look, , more closely at the discourse, you'll see that there's this discourse of ineptitude. Not only that, it's not just about, like, resources, but that's, like, they're, either morally or culturally unable to, because they're kind of stuck in, in time. They're not as modern as the United States.

They, they don't. Treat girls in a particular way, or they don't value children with disability. And, so, I mean, what's, that, that sort of discourse, right, presumes what I call an opposite future. And so then, a lot of the book is trying to, sort of, show that the racialization of space and this, sort of, predetermined idea of space and time, that if we move the [00:38:00] child to the United States, that the space, and future for that child will be better is not guaranteed.

And there's so many examples in which, , Reuters did that expose on rehoming years ago and the AP Associated Press, , came out with their sort of long series on Korean adoptions. And we just have example after example of , whether it's estrangement or whether it's deportation, there's just a lot of examples right in which this isn't the case and then we can even go even broader and thinking about like how disability is thought of in the United States.

And so, yes, like. Some, I think there's some parents here in the U. S. who are adopting children with disability. But at the same time, some of those adoptive parents are doing it in a way in which they are treating their child in a particular way, right? That doesn't really empower them, that doesn't sort of [00:39:00] acknowledge them as, it sort of attaches disability to the person and in a really sort of messed up way, right?

And so, the way that we think about gender, obviously, , we have elected, , this person who has sexually assaulted women and, and bragged about it, and, so we have this idea of what America, is, but then if we take that wider lens, , right, that the discourse that justifies adoption doesn't actually match what is actually happening.

And and so that's kind of like what I'm trying to do. And really what I'm trying to do is like thinking about like the people who are really invested in adoptive care, care through adoption. Like my end argument is that we can actually provide care that we imagine through different means other than adoption.

Haley Radke: Absolutely. And I totally agree with you. For sure. [00:40:00] I want to ask you one more thing about your book, which I'm going to recommend. So let's just consider we're in the recommended resource section. So, Your book is so thorough about it's got this historical record keeping. You talk about MEPA and ICWA and several high profile trials that, have gone to the Supreme Court.

A lot of us will be familiar with them. You're also challenging positive adoption language. And this is what I wanted to talk to you a little bit about. You talk about de stigmatizing adoption, like this process that, I guess society went through and thought, God, this is exactly right. We have switched from, , adoptive parents were looked at as like infertile, broken somehow, like you can't, you can't do what we're supposed to do into glorifying adoptive parents and putting them up on this pedestal, like the, the white savior narrative you were talking about earlier. And I [00:41:00] thought, , and in doing so, what have we done to adoptees? We've forever infantilized them. And unfortunately, like birth parents have had the stigma before and after from this, , shameful, out of wedlock sex villainized in some way.

And then. , there's this desire to, like, move to calling them brave so that more people will relinquish and keep the baby supply going. Can you talk about that? Like, what do you see when you're looking at, say, current day society? What do you see people looking at adoptive parents as and adoptees as? And I know this book is to help change those views. But what are you seeing, like, working and changing that?

Kit Myers: A lot of what I'm, I, I try to write about is, or, certainly part of the book is, is talking [00:42:00] about the destigmatization of adoptive parenthood and adoption in general, and how the, the push to normalize adoption, right, as a, as a normative way to make families, of course, then in turn, creates another form of symbolic violence.

It kind of passes the violence on, so to speak. And so I talk about this in my class, this idea of creating, creating meaning is always relational. Like when you create meaning for something, you're, it's usually in relation to something else. And if something is devalued and you try to sort of imbue that devalued thing with value sort of to reclaim that value.

The danger is is that in reclaiming that value you would sort of inadvertently devalue something else and that's kind of what I feel has happened and I understand why because , I still [00:43:00] see adoption and adoptees as the sort of the butt of jokes in popular media, right? It's still even though they're Held up on this pedestal, it is a easy, it is a easy sort of quote unquote laugh, right, in a lot of media, film and TV shows and whatnot.

And so I understand the sort of tendency or the desire to sort of be viewed as normal and to claim this normalcy and to, and this is one of the reasons why I think adoptive parents really, really, for the longest time were like, well, we're the real parents and trying to claim that legitimacy and for even adoptees who say that these are my real parents because they are trying to be a part of a legitimate family, right?

And so this discourse is very much informed by how society has constructed this idea of family in such a narrow [00:44:00] way and then so adoption has in turned sort of solidified or concretized that definition of family and said, okay, we're going to just add this, but we're going to still keep the same rigid structure of what family is.

We're just going to kind of squeeze ourself in there. And so I think that a lot of adoptees, especially right adult adoptees who have. Who are adding to the discourse and who are, , writing poetry or memoirs or, , your podcast and documentary films like all of this work by these amazing adult adoptees, as you said, right, that, that we are no longer children, this constantly infantilized group of people, right, that this sort of collective voice has helped shift How we think about adoption and, and so, , my book is just another contribution.

And I really try to, at the end , I want to make sure that readers understand that, , I'm not trying to [00:45:00] be the last voice on this, right? I'm, I really want people to seek out other adotee voices with love, like an, a sort of openness and a sort of love that, that is so often claimed to be taking place in adoption, I want us to have that love when we go out and search other information that might go against, , what we've been taught or told, or even what we've experienced, right? So, so , I do think that the narrative is changing or the discourse is changing, but there's still so much work to do and it's, it's very evident constantly. I think we're confronting with it all the time.

Haley Radke: We have just scratched the surface of Kit's book. It's called The Violence of Love, Race, Family, and Adoption in the United States. I am so, it's so cool you went with a publisher who's given open source access so people can buy it anywhere and support your work. And if you're not able to, there's a free version available also. So that's [00:46:00] amazing. Thank you for doing that. What did you want to recommend to us today?

Kit Myers: , , and I love this aspect about your podcast because I think it's just so important to like seek out different resources. And so this was such a hard question because you asked me to only pick one

Haley Radke: I know it's so mean.

Kit Myers: It is it's torturous, but I I sort of ended up on When We Become Ours, which is a young adult adoptee anthology edited by Shannon Gibney and Nicole Chung.

And I've known Shannon for years and, and I've just got connected with Nicole and she wrote this wonderful blurb for me, for my book. They're both amazing people. They're both amazing writers and the folks that they have called into this anthology are just, they're such exciting voices. And I think it's. It's going to help shape young adult literature. So I'm really excited that they put this book out [00:47:00] into the world and we need more like it.

Haley Radke: Oh, absolutely. I love it. I totally second that recommendation. It's so good. Such a great resource and especially for young people as well to have something like that in your high schools library, like how cool, amazing.

.

Thank you so much for sharing a little more of you with us, Kit. I've appreciated getting to know you a little today so much. Thank you. Where can we connect with you and find your book and all the things and take a class from you? We could do that.

Kit Myers: And we're all in UC Merced. Yes.

Haley Radke: Yes.

Kit Myers: . Well, you, the easiest way to find a lot of my stuff is just if you Google me, you'll, you'll find, I think my website, the UC Merced website, which I think hopefully you can put in the podcast information.

Haley Radke: I will.

Kit Myers: I'm on Twitter and Instagram. I don't know how long I'll be on those because of just the, the stuff that the people have been that the owners of [00:48:00] those companies have been saying and doing

Haley Radke: mm hmm

Kit Myers: I just got a blue sky account, so I might be more active over there But , my book is available, on sort of your traditional online sources to buy but it's also available on Luminosoa. org and you can if you go to the University of California Press website there is a link to the free version.

Haley Radke: Amazing. That is wonderful. Thank you so much, Kit. It's such a pleasure to speak with you.

Kit Myers: It has been, , really wonderful chatting and I've been loving sort of listening to your podcast and really appreciate the work you do and I hope we can stay connected.

Haley Radke: Thank you.

Know that saying that people that people say good one Haley, that saying that history is written by the victors [00:49:00] I don't think I've talked about this enough on the podcast, but for every academic that includes historical facts, research, and data in their work, preserving adoption history. I just think it's so important, especially when it's an adoptee, right?

Because you can think of, I was just thinking, like, thinking back to Kit's book and had an adoptive parent written, parts of these histories would surely be erased because being complicit in such a problematic system, it's very difficult for some adoptive parents to look on it with, let's say, clear lenses, okay?

So, [00:50:00] I just, I really want us to support critical adoption scholars like Kit and others who we've had on the show. And sometimes it's like, I know, I know, God, listen, I know, it can sound like, oh my gosh, Haley, really? You want us to like read more about this depressing history of like, , I do. I do because we have to be the ones to talk about all of these problematic things, and we didn't really go too much into it today, but Kit has a whole chapter on the couple versus Veronica. That went all the way to the Supreme Court. I don't know if you remember that case, like the adoptive parents who were insistent on trying to adopt this baby girl who was very much wanted by her biological father.

[00:51:00] And , preserving these stories is so important, and I was almost going to say critical, but, , critical adoption scholar. How many times can I say critical? Anyway, it's, it's really important. And so I would encourage you to read Kit's book and, and other adoption history books, so many of the ones we've had on in recent years.

Many of the critical adoption scholar, professor types have sections of their books that include adoption history, and it's just, it's just so important for us. So I know it's difficult, but , just one bite at a time, we can do it. I believe in you. And I think Kit mentioned like, his parents were I don't remember the wording, but like intimidated or worried they wouldn't understand.

I know you are a very smart audience because I interact with [00:52:00] you regularly and you're very smart people. And so this book will not be difficult for you. It definitely is academic, but it's absolutely doable. And I learned so many things and there were so many things he pointed out that I was like, oh, that's where that's from.

It's one another one of those books where you can look at the bibliography and, , get a new reading list for the rest of your life. No, not, , I mean, actually, yes, but just extensive, extensive research and work has gone into it. So, I hope you all pick it up, and there's free version, so no excuse.

Thank you for supporting these conversations that I get to have with folks that are doing the research and work which is what we've been asking for right. Thank you so much for listening and let's talk again very [00:53:00] soon.